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[chaosblade]

To an extent yeah, and given enough time it'll be accurate. But I still think making it too early can delay the time it takes to make it truly accurate by a lot. I definitely think making it before the game even releases outside Japan is way too early for example. Saying it'll be accurate eventually is dumb because we should strive to understand balance as soon as possible, and making a tier list too early actually prevents that in my opinion

I don't think the backroom guys making the "official" tier lists will have anything available for months, Brawl didn't get it's first one until 6 months after it came out for example. They'll look at tournament placement and matchup effectiveness and you need data for that first.

And you also have to remember that these are people who play with money on the line (not just the people making the list, but the people playing in tournaments where data is collected). It's in their best interest to explore characters and dig out that potential others might not have seen yet in order to win. So they aren't going to sleep on a character just because another character is considered better 2 months after the game comes out.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

For a moment lets pretend your limited theory is correct, that we will only ever get one character based on a defunct peripheral as a nintendo retro per smash generation, let's entertain this. We have:
-Arcade Cabinets, (The Ship from Radar Scope or Sheriff)
-Power Glove (The glove from Super Glove Ball)
-Power Pad (Track Runners from Stadium Events)

E-Reader!

Combine it with the Hanafuda Cards too.

 

[Fiktion]

So I'm kind of curious - I seem to recall JoeInky implying quite a while ago in this thread that Ness had been completely steamrolled in terms of viability. That said, all I'm finding on Ness is almost a universal list of buffs (that FAir is insane) and people on SmashBoards saying the new Smash mechanics are actually benefiting him.

Kind of holding out hope for that good ol' Charlie Brown.

There were a couple guys in here trashing Ness but he's looked really good on streams and has placed 1st and 2nd in the two tournaments so far.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I don't think the backroom guys making the "official" tier lists will have anything available for months, Brawl didn't get it's first one until 6 months after it came out for example. They'll look at tournament placement and matchup effectiveness and you need data for that first.

And you also have to remember that these are people who play with money on the line. It's in their best interest to explore characters and dig out that potential others might not have seen yet in order to win. So they aren't going to sleep on a character just because another character is considered better 2 months after the game comes out.

Unofficial tier lists from well regarded players are also pretty bad though. And yeah, for the very top it might have less affect. But I feel like most tournament players really aren't going to win that many tournaments anyways, so money isn't the issue

 

[chaosblade]

Speaking of tournaments, is there going to be a Wii U Bash Sisters tournament? Or just 3DS? I'd be interested in entering if there is going to be a Wii U one as well.

 

[Don't Laugh]

since you guy are talking about tiers, who's generally considered to be in the top tier?

 

[ffdgh]

since you guy are talking about tiers, who's generally considered to be in the top tier?

Either zero suit samus or greninja.

 

[Aaronrules380]

since you guy are talking about tiers, who's generally considered to be in the top tier?

See, this is the attitude that I feel is harmful at this point because people will tend to focus on certain characters before anyone's been mastered

 

[chaosblade]

since you guy are talking about tiers, who's generally considered to be in the top tier?

Nobody is seriously considered the best yet, but I know ZSS and Bowser are both considered particularly good at this point.

And apparently Puff has a lot of potential with the air game and rest being buffed but I've hardly seen her mentioned.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

That was the beta build before they toned it down obviously.
If we get more than one poke ball on WiiU 3DS fans have every right to be outraged.
/im done with this terrible joke

Lol

 

[NotLiquid]

since you guy are talking about tiers, who's generally considered to be in the top tier?

We talking Smash 4?

It's very premature. The only universally agreed top tier character so far seems to be Bowser (and perhaps Villager and Zero Suit), that said I get the feeling that it's a Sentinel in MvC3 scenario where people just weren't ready to handle his very crutch-like abilities and are consistently getting wrecked because of it.

 

[chaosblade]

We talking Smash 4?

It's very premature. The only universally agreed top tier character so far seems to be Bowser (and perhaps Villager and Zero Suit), that said I get the feeling that it's a Sentinel in MvC3 scenario where people just weren't ready to handle his very crutch-like abilities and are consistently getting wrecked because of it.

Alternatively, very early SSBB Ike. Especially pre-release, Ike was considered a monster since he could KO so easily since nobody was really used to the game yet.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Asking what the top tier characters are is not necessarily "I want to play as the best", it's more a figure of speech of "who's really good?"

Asking again though, do we have any Brawldorf-tier characters?

 

[Holy Order Sol]

since you guy are talking about tiers, who's generally considered to be in the top tier?

Not even the best players are in any position to tell right now. Whatever opinions are currently floating around are irrelevant.

 

[AdaWong]

I guess the game is already pushing the system to its limits. Those modes would require more/faster calculations

But it doesn't add up, the modes are already in the game in Smash Run. They just really didn't bother to add those modes lol.

 

[chaosblade]

Asking what the top tier characters are is not necessarily "I want to play as the best", it's more a figure of speech of "who's really good?"

Asking again though, do we have any Brawldorf-tier characters?

Mega Man in the hands of people who don't know how to use him?

I actually haven't seen any agreement on any character being outright terrible yet, there always seems to be as many people saying a character is decent as there are saying they are bad. I've heard Falcon is terrible, but then right after that people are talking about all these awesome buffs he got.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

since you guy are talking about tiers, who's generally considered to be in the top tier?

From what I've seen it looks like Rob, ZSS, Sheik and possibly Bowser are looking top tier or at least very high tier.

A lot of people are still trying to get used to the newcomers play styles so it remains to be seen which newcomers will be top tier material.

 

[Revven]

Unofficial tier lists from well regarded players are also pretty bad though. And yeah, for the very top it might have less affect. But I feel like most tournament players really aren't going to win that many tournaments anyways, so money isn't the issue

In general, a tier list is formed on two basic elements:

1) Tournament placings (where a character typically places in tournaments or has shown to place in tournaments)

2) Match-up data

Both of which are not things the community has this early on. A lot of what makes "early" tier lists bad is the fact that there's no data to back it up -- it's just gut feelings. However, most of the newer players or people that are trying to get into the competitive scene don't have an understanding on what a "tier list" actually is or what makes up a tier list. A tier list isn't just someone's list on who they think the best characters are, it's a ranking list of who the best characters are based on data gathered from tournaments & match-ups.

People get so caught up in where characters are placed on the list + how often tiers are brought up that they forget that and the phrase "tier list" has ultimately lost meaning. That is, it's a phrase people throw around for anything regarding how a character is in the game vs. what I explained above.

Early tier lists are generally avoided in Smash but there are definitely people out there who try to put out something like a tier list and people will refer to it as a tier list despite how factually incorrect it might be or how it lacks the data to back it up. Those people who do that are either doing it for attention or to fill a need -- that need, being, to try and figure out or have an understanding on how "good" a character is. Unfortunately, those kinds of lists can have a negative effect on the meta where people are no longer playing characters they like, but rather characters that are higher up on this "early tier list" (even though it's not actually a tier list).

So many people have this misconception about tier lists and that's the problem with it. If everybody knew and treated tier lists more seriously, we'd see less people craving for one so early from someone that's already good at the game.

Impressions on characters are fine, but you shouldn't advocate the idea that someone like ZSS is "top tier" in a game that's still largely unexplored. A rough estimate of where a character might rank on one is also kind of bad but not as bad as being explicit about their placement and/or making a full fledged "tier list" with no data to back it up.

I, generally, wouldn't worry about any "early tier lists" happening unless it comes from Mew2King. He tends to do stuff like that and it's a problem because a large portion of people take his word as gospel despite how time and time again, he's wrong. You only need to look into the past to see that and even more recently with PM. He doesn't realize just how much influence/say he has in the community and how much people value his opinions (it goes along with his other social problems he has, but it's not his fault he's got those issues... he has some form of autism).

I hope that quells some of your worry.

 

[Ken Masters]

The unlockable characters are still really unknown?

 

[Anura]

Just hit the 100 for glory matches mark! Win rate if 74. Not too shabby but I think I can improve it

 

[chaosblade]

The unlockable characters are still really unknown?

No, we know pretty much everything in the game at this point. People are clinging to hope of DLC.

 

[NotLiquid]

Asking what the top tier characters are is not necessarily "I want to play as the best", it's more a figure of speech of "who's really good?"

Asking again though, do we have any Brawldorf-tier characters?

Again, premature. No one so far is showing signs as explicitly bad as that. Right now people are mostly scouting for nerfs. Marth and Meta Knight got some pretty severe ones but none of them seem to be objectively terrible.

That said I have seen a lot of criticism aimed against Little Mac. His air game really is as terrible as it's being made out to be, and since Smash 4 has a big increase in off-stage game play and edgeguarding compared to previous entries he is severely crippled.

 

[PadWarrior]

Awesome Greninja play
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrEEZsD1Qrw

 

[theprodigy]

Just hit the 100 for glory matches mark! Win rate if 74. Not too shabby but I think I can improve it

Wait so is there a list somewhere on which SmashGAF members imported the game?

 

[batfax]

For a moment lets pretend your limited theory is correct, that we will only ever get one character based on a defunct peripheral as a nintendo retro per smash generation, let's entertain this. We have:
-Arcade Cabinets, (The Ship from Radar Scope or Sheriff)
-Power Glove (The glove from Super Glove Ball)
-Power Pad (Track Runners from Stadium Events)

Still waiting on that Satellaview character myself.

 

[SenorArdilla]

No, we know pretty much everything in the game at this point. People are clinging to hope of DLC.

We must have hope in the Magic Triangles...

 

[Aaronrules380]

On another note, does anyone else think that banning stages for tournament play shouldn't be done based on if it has stage hazards or stuff like that, but rather hard data. It's easy to say stage hazards increase randomness or decrease skill, but I feel it's worthless to say it as if it's a sure thing with no actual evidence. You can say common sense or it's obvious, but a lot of things that seem like common sense or obvious have been proven wrong

 

[Anura]

Wait so is there a list somewhere on which SmashGAF members imported the game?

I've been wondering that myself

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

The only characters who seem bad so far are Fox and Marth, and that pleases me greatly.

 

[Peléo]

Any idea about when is the demo launching?

 

[Moonlight]

The only characters who seem bad so far are Fox and Marth, and that pleases me greatly.

Marth isn't bad. He's just a slightly worse Lucina.

 

[ratcliffja]

The only characters who seem bad so far are Fox and Marth, and that pleases me greatly.

I've seen Fox absolutely wreck. He doesn't seem that bad at all.

 

[trixx]

Awesome Greninja play
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrEEZsD1Qrw

Holy crap that's cool, Greninja is by far the best Pokemon in years

 

[chaosblade]

Marth isn't bad. He's just a slightly worse Lucina.

Hilarious how this seems to have worked out, since I totally expected Lucina to be a worse Marth.

 

[DaBoss]

Anth0ny
Anura
Drago
El Pescado
Georly
Hatchtag
JoeInky
Makai
StayDead
The Bankslammer
zeromcd73

CHusson91, Masked Man, and StreetsAhead live in Japan.

These are from the top of my head. Sorry if I missed anyone.

 

[Fidelis Hodie]

The only characters who seem bad so far are Fox and Marth, and that pleases me greatly.

But watching ZeRo play Fox, I wouldn't even say that at all. He looked really good.

 

[Troubled Bat]

I think Takamaru's very likely considering he's an AT that people wanted to be a full fighter and he had his own Nintendoland mini-game. I don't even know who Sukapon is. I googled him and still have no idea who he is. Mach Rider is definitely a possibility. Personally, I'd love playable Lolo, but I know that it's not happening anytime soon. He probably makes more sense as an AT anyway.

Nintendo's first fighting game, basically.

 

[A Link to the Past]

That's what makes me so happy - all of the characters that people call bad have a "buuuut."

Like Little Mac, he has a shit air game and that's detrimental, but a good player can do a lot of damage and knockback on the ground.

 

[Pancakes]

That's what makes me so happy - all of the characters that people call bad have a "buuuut."

Like Little Mac, he has a shit air game and that's detrimental, but a good player can do a lot of damage and knockback on the ground.

With the advent of custom moves I don't think any champion will be relegated to never played garbage tier.

 

[A Link to the Past]

With the advent of custom moves I don't think any champion will be relegated to never played garbage tier.

Even w/o I don't think that we have any never-played garbage tier characters.

 

[Spinosaurus]

The only characters who seem bad so far are Fox and Marth, and that pleases me greatly.

Fox definitely isn't bad lol.

 

[Sigismundo]

I have to say if I was in charge of Smash 5 it would have about 70 characters and would take far too long to develop and be way over budget. Probably best that my expectations get dialed down a little bit.

 

[PadWarrior]

Holy crap that's cool, Greninja is by far the best Pokemon in years

Agreed. I hope he's a mainstay in Smash.

 

[Revven]

On another note, does anyone else think that banning stages for tournament play shouldn't be done based on if it has stage hazards or stuff like that, but rather hard data. It's easy to say stage hazards increase randomness or decrease skill, but I feel it's worthless to say it as if it's a sure thing with no actual evidence. You can say common sense or it's obvious, but a lot of things that seem like common sense or obvious have been proven wrong

Your argument might work more for a stage like Arena Ferox or the new Mute City stage but I wouldn't agree for something like the Gameboy stage or Magicant because we know both of those stages are going to be too intrusive in the way they're designed and what hazards they have.

It goes without saying that we know what types of stages work for competitive Smash and what don't by now. Much of Smash 4's stages (on the 3DS at least) seem to lean more on the side of stages like Norfair where they have pretty ridiculous hazards and feels more like you're fighting the stage rather than the opponent. Or, are more akin to a stage like Bridge of Eldin where there are walk-offs and the only way to KO is on either of those sides and maybe in the pit that separates the two parts.

I think we generally know how moving stages work enough to just outright ban those type of stages (and by moving, I mean something like Rainbow Cruise). I mean, your logic would practically mean something like Palutena's Temple could be made legal when we clearly know that stage is not fit for 1v1 competition (let alone competition at all) and we have data to back up big stages don't work from Melee (See: Hyrule Temple and the insane circle camping + the percents players could live at in the "cave of life" part of the stage).

The stages that are legal are legal not because of how static they are but how the community wants to play the game competitively, to represent the best possible and most fair sense of competition you can have in the game without it being unfair or players feeling cheated out of a match. Or, even having to deal with jank in a stage.

Stages that were banned in Melee's later life and were past stages in Brawl were actually legal for a few years again because it was a new game. But eventually those stages got banned again anyway because of how players were, once again, able to abuse their hazards/mechanics to the point it wasn't interesting to play, unfair, or skewed MUs too much into certain characters favor.

I'm sure there will be some minor variation in tournament stage lists like there always is between regions and TOs but I definitely think things are going to be more conservative this time around because of how much past knowledge, experience, and data we have on the same 'type' of stages in Smash 4. You only have to take one look at something like Pictochat 2 to know it's not going to work out, especially when the more tame version in Brawl eventually got banned. The same reason applies to Jungle Japes where we had it legal in two games already and both times it eventually got banned. Same thing with Brinstar (although I think some TOs are going to try Brinstar again anyway, we'll see -- just something I heard).

This is just more how I feel and based on what I've heard from some TOs over the last weekend (mostly in regards to the smaller tournament streams we had last weekend when the game was first out how it was talked about on-stream what players/commentators were thinking with regards to a stage list for the game).

 

[A Link to the Past]

I have to say if I was in charge of Smash 5 it would have about 70 characters and would take far too long to develop and be way over budget. Probably best that my expectations get dialed down a little bit.

The Wii U version couldn't handle dat bro

 

[Anura]

Greninja is really weird to play but he is also so incredibly cool.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Awesome Greninja play
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrEEZsD1Qrw

Makes me want to use Greninja. Looks fun.

 

[Jawmuncher]

If I was in charge of smash 90% of smashGAF would hate me for the roster alone.

 

[botty]

When is the Smash demo out?

 

[CHusson91]

I've mentioned this before, but is anyone else severely disappointed in the game so far? I was looking forward to playing online daily on my breaks, but it's a laggy mess every time.