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Sweden to Introduce 'Careless Rape' Law

Dunki

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In a bid to address ballooning sexual crimes, the Swedish government is seeking to toughen legislation. Following the #Metoo sex scandal, which resonated well with Sweden's self-described feminist government, the Stockholm authorities want to amend the sex laws with a specific "consent clause" to ensure that all sex in the country is voluntary.

The new draft bill presented by the Swedish government will criminalize having sex with anyone who has not explicitly said yes or otherwise shown they are willing to participate. This is known as the "consent clause" and was previously campaigned for by Gender Equality Minister Åsa Regnér, among others.

This seems like its going way too far and also way to reactionary to the whole #metoo event. Also kind of scary how there was NO discussion about this at all since Politicians and media silently agreed to this.

Luckily there are still harsh critics left.

"Bearing in mind that sexual intercourse is often characterized by mutual communications through actions and not words, the bill may prove too theoretical and lacking the foundation in reality," Anne Ramberg said, citing the possibility of failing to notice that the transition to a new "moment" already has begun.


So basically if you are in Sweden and you want sex you better get a written consent form or you can be accused of rape at anytime. And your chances to win are very very slim since there is no real evidence needed anymore. And right now there are a lot of witch huntings going on according to "Die Welt". They totally abolished the innocent until proven guilty rule....

So what do you think about this? IS it going too far?
Here an article in English. If oyu have other sites feel free to post them and I will update these. My original source was a German News site.



Edit: Removed the Sputnik source since I was told it is a Russian propaganda site I did not know of.
Another source would be: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/sweden-rape-law-consent-new-pm-backing-stefan-lofven-a8117471.html

I Personally got my Infos from4 German news articles from non propaganda sites or even conservative ones.

German site.
https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article171720005/Schweden-Einverstaendnisgesetz-fordert-Frage-um-Erlaubnis-zu-Sexualkontakt.html

edit: Also interesting: With this a woman does not even have to say no anymore but a man HAS TO ASK the women if he is allowed to have sex with her or not. And Again he better have it written on paper.
 

BANGS

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How does this solve the "Me too" problem? If anything, it emboldens it. Now anyone can claim rape unless they have a signed document or video/audio recording of the consent...
 

Dude Abides

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The new draft bill presented by the Swedish government will criminalize having sex with anyone who has not explicitly said yes or otherwise shown they are willing to participate.

The new draft bill presented by the Swedish government will criminalize having sex with anyone who has not explicitly said yes or otherwise shown they are willing to participate.

otherwise shown they are willing to participate
.

Wtf are you talking about OP.
 

Dunki

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Wtf are you talking about OP.

That is a normal consent law. Here however you have to ask for permission and the women does not need to say no or reject it in any form. Also noteworthy it is only talking about men that have to ask for permission not the other way around. So it puts men under general suspicion to begin with. The german article explains it much better and in more detail. Also since there is no indication how men have to ask people also arguing that to be safe you have to do it in written from with signature etc. otherwise a women can still claim it was rape.

There were examples how women were totally fine with having sex but days later accused some men of rape because they thought about it. (This is stated in the german article.)
 

Liljagare

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Sounds silly, but the only way to be safe after the law comes into effect, is to draw up a contract, signed by witnesses, before the act.

Yes, seriously.
 

Alx

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"or otherwise shown they are willing to participate" is the nature of the problem, and will never be entirely fixed. It's something that depends too much on the interpretation of the persons involved, the infamous "mixed signals".
Also many rape issues can't entirely be solved/dismissed by a simple "yes" uttered at a specific moment, many situations in court start with consensual sex but reach a point where one of the partners feels differently.

There's no perfect solution, unless you'd want indeed to sign a pre-coitus contract listing all the accepted relations, positions, durations and implications of the persons involved. Which is obviously not what sex is about.
 

Dunki

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It's the description of the law you're all hysterical about from your own article.

Again.... MEN HAVE TO ASK FOR PERMISSION. Otherwise you can be arrested for careless rape.

Before it was a no or a rejecting gesture etc.

How is this not different then the normal consent law?
 

Alx

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Again.... MEN HAVE TO ASK FOR PERMISSION.

Just to be technical, it also applies to women. And yeah it doesn't state that any person has to ask explicitly, just that consent must be "observable" one way or another. Which might make the law pointless if it's that vague.
 

Dunki

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That's not what your own article says. Why are you lying.
I also said that my source is a german article and that i searched for an english one.... Why do you imply that I lie? What are my benefits for lying? It makes no sense to lie here.

Here is the German quote:
Ein Nein oder eine nonverbale Zurückweisung war bisher erforderlich, um dem Vorwurf der Vergewaltigung zu entgehen. Von nun an wird derjenige, der den Sexualkontakt wünscht, zuvor um Erlaubnis fragen müssen. Wenn nicht, droht eine Verurteilung wegen Vergewaltigung.
Again it even states in the name. "CARELESS" Rape. So basically even if you forgot to ask and it was great for both parties she still could sue you if she wanted. And if there is word against word who do you think would win? Thats why people and even experts arguing that you have to have a written consent form from now on to be really save.



Just to be technical, it also applies to women. And yeah it doesn't state that any person has to ask explicitly, just that consent must be "observable" one way or another. Which might make the law pointless if it's that vague.
The statements of the swedish government only mention men as predator

"We have been working for a long time to modernize the sexual legislation, and I am extremely pleased that we are finally getting a consent law in place," Isabella Lövin said, adding that the new legislation was a step towards eliminating the destructive attitude toward women.
"If men's violence against women is to cease, then it's men who have to change," Johansson said, venturing that the law will raise the number of convictions.

Also the German article agains states that this is the FIRST one worldwide.
 

Alx

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The statements of the swedish government only mention men as predator

Which is understandable when you consider that a huge majority of victims are women, and a huge majority of rapists are men. Although it's always better when official declarations don't overlook minority cases even when addressing the major issue.
But in the end the law matters for all, so the consequence of "we want to protect (mostly) women victims of rape" isn't "men have to ask for consent" but "everybody has to ask for consent" (assuming the asking part is true, but as mentioned earlier it's more complicated than that).
Still, like I said it's a technicality, but not an unimportant one when discussing such issues.
 

Dunki

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Which is understandable when you consider that a huge majority of victims are women, and a huge majority of rapists are men. Although it's always better when official declarations don't overlook minority cases even when addressing the major issue.
But in the end the law matters for all, so the consequence of "we want to protect (mostly) women victims of rape" isn't "men have to ask for consent" but "everybody has to ask for consent" (assuming the asking part is true, but as mentioned earlier it's more complicated than that).
Still, like I said it's a technicality, but not an unimportant one when discussing such issues.

I agree with a lot you are saying but the statement was really what made me say this. This is not how a gov should react to this. And being it an official response it is hard not to see it like that for me.

Also the whole thing feels like a short reaction to the whole #metoo movement. One without any thought at all. I also think it is the wrong way since sex does not work like this. Also it will not help at all. What will help is education. More time in school for these kind of topics. And not the "teach men not to rape" classes or approach. But a much more thoughtful one.

Oh and the asking part is true. Since the normal consent law already exist in Sweden. Again this article mentions it as a worlds first.
 

caffeware

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"or otherwise shown they are willing to participate" is the nature of the problem, and will never be entirely fixed. It's something that depends too much on the interpretation of the persons involved, the infamous "mixed signals".
Also many rape issues can't entirely be solved/dismissed by a simple "yes" uttered at a specific moment, many situations in court start with consensual sex but reach a point where one of the partners feels differently.

Add alcohol and drugs to the mix and it becomes even more complex. How you think and want under the influence may be very different of that when sober.

I had a friend be acussed of rape after a party. The bf of the girl came the next day and smashed my friend's car.

He was lucky many saw them together that night and testify (not in court) that she was willing. Apparently, to the point they were having sex in the open.
 

Dude Abides

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I also said that my source is a german article and that i searched for an english one.... Why do you imply that I lie? What are my benefits for lying? It makes no sense to lie here.

To push your agenda obviously.

Here is the German quote:

I can’t read German and I don’t trust you to give an honest interpretation, especially when it contradicts your own English source.

Again it even states in the name. "CARELESS" Rape. So basically even if you forgot to ask and it was great for both parties she still could sue you if she wanted. And if there is word against word who do you think would win? Thats why people and even experts arguing that you have to have a written consent form from now on to be really save.

It just means make sure your partner is into it before you stick it in. Don’t just charge ahead because they didn’t explicitly say no. This is something every decent person understands. Why can’t any of you just be fucking normal people?
 

Dunki

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To push your agenda obviously.



I can't read German and I don't trust you to give an honest interpretation, especially when it contradicts your own English source.



It just means make sure your partner is into it before you stick it in. Don't just charge ahead because they didn't explicitly say no. This is something every decent person understands. Why can't any of you just be fucking normal people?

Then how about asking someone else to give you an interpretation. Or even try google translate.

Its pretty easy German so here
A no or non-verbal refusal has been required so far to avoid the charge of rape. From now on, the one who desires sexual contact will have to ask permission first. If not, there is a risk of being convicted of rape.
 

BANGS

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Dunki, please stop wasting your time dealing with that troll. He tries to derail and ruin every topic with this pointless non-logic and insults...
 

Dude Abides

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Then how about asking someone else to give you an interpretation. Or even try google translate.

Its pretty easy German so here

So one of your articles is wrong, assuming your translation is accurate. Also your German article supports my position, since it says under current law an actual no is required. I found a third source that suggests you’re wrong and this is just MRA hysteria.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...nt-new-pm-backing-stefan-lofven-a8117471.html

Under the proposed law, if a person has not agreed in words or clearly demonstrated they want to engage in sexual activity, then forcing or coercing them into a sexual act will be illegal.

Current Swedish law means what is classed as “rape” covers a multitude of sexual offences but it has to be proven it occurred because of threats or violence.

The proposed changes, which are likely to be legislated for next year, will mean sexual acts will be deemed rape whenever consent was not given regardless of whether there is any evidence of threats or violence.

Seems like you're getting worked up over nothing. Do your homework before posting lest people think you’re a simpleton like BANGS here.
 

Dunki

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So one of your articles is wrong, assuming your translation is accurate. Also your German article supports my position, since it says under current law an actual no is required. I found a third source that suggests you’re wrong and this is just MRA hysteria.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...nt-new-pm-backing-stefan-lofven-a8117471.html



Seems like you're getting worked up over nothing. Do your homework before posting lest people think you’re a simpleton like BANGS here.

I have now seen 4 German articles about this and everything is stating the same. And no none of them is conservative or MRA journalism. And Yes I informed myself about this.

http://www.augsburger-allgemeine.de/panorama/Schweden-fuehrt-ab-Juli-2018-Sex-Genehmigung-ein-id43589536.html

https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/schweden-neues-gesetz-gegen-vergewaltigung-schreibt-genehmigung-fuer-sex-vor_id_8013626.html

http://www.bento.de/politik/schweden-plant-neues-einverstaendnis-gesetz-gegen-sexuelle-uebergriffe-1951657/#refsponi

The last one is even a very feministic site. I doubt I am in the wrong here. This one even says

Mit dem neuen Gesetz liegt die Verantwortung nun beim Mann: Er muss aktiv um Erlaubnis fragen.

Die Einverständnisregel gilt dabei für alle – für Männer und Frauen und natürlich auch in gleichgeschlechtlichen Beziehungen.

Eine mündliche Genehmigung soll ausreichen. Wer sicher gehen will, sollte sich aber etwas Schriftliches geben lassen.

With the new law, the responsibility now lies with the man: he must actively ask for permission.

The consent rule applies to all - for men and women and of course in same-sex relationships.

An oral approval should be sufficient. If you want to be sure, you should get something in writing.

Also I want to note again that if this was a normal consens law which existed already in Sweden. People would not write articles about it.
 

Dude Abides

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I have now seen 4 German articles about this and everything is stating the same. And no none of them is conservative or MRA journalism. And Yes I informed myself about this.

http://www.augsburger-allgemeine.de/panorama/Schweden-fuehrt-ab-Juli-2018-Sex-Genehmigung-ein-id43589536.html

https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/schweden-neues-gesetz-gegen-vergewaltigung-schreibt-genehmigung-fuer-sex-vor_id_8013626.html

http://www.bento.de/politik/schweden-plant-neues-einverstaendnis-gesetz-gegen-sexuelle-uebergriffe-1951657/#refsponi

The last one is even a very feministic site. I doubt I am in the wrong here. This one even says

Mit dem neuen Gesetz liegt die Verantwortung nun beim Mann: Er muss aktiv um Erlaubnis fragen.

Die Einverständnisregel gilt dabei für alle – für Männer und Frauen und natürlich auch in gleichgeschlechtlichen Beziehungen.

Eine mündliche Genehmigung soll ausreichen. Wer sicher gehen will, sollte sich aber etwas Schriftliches geben lassen.



Also I want to note again that if this was a normal consens law which existed already in Sweden. People would not write articles about it.

Those are analysis pieces that read like opinions. None of them quote the actual text of the law. Seems like you got caught up in sloppy journalism, clickbait hysteria, and fake outrage.

And even the first one says that current Swedish law requires an explicit no or resistance to be rape, so your own source contradicts you on the “normal consent” point. I urge you to be more careful and less agenda-driven.
 

Dunki

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Those are analysis pieces that read like opinions. None of them quote the actual text of the law. Seems like you got caught up in sloppy journalism, clickbait hysteria, and fake outrage.

And even the first one says that current Swedish law requires an explicit no or resistance to be rape, so your own source contradicts you on the “normal consent” point. I urge you to be more careful and less agenda-driven.

The current law yes. The one already existing. This will be active in July 2018. That is not the current law.
 

Dunki

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So you were lying about Sweden already having a normal consent law. Glad we cleared that up.



Lol. Agenda pushers gonna push.

No.......


Sweden HAS a normal consent law. Which means like you said. "requires an explicit no or resistance to be rape"

This is a normal consent law like many countries have. So how did I lie about this?

And Again I apoogize for using this site and I will delete it from the OP as well. That is all I can do.
 

BANGS

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Dunki stahhhp lol isn't it obvious he's just fucking around? Look at his response to the definition of "careless" ffs...
 

Dude Abides

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No.......


Sweden HAS a normal consent law. Which means like you said. "requires an explicit no or resistance to be rape"

That isn’t a normal consent law. Normal consent laws do not require an explicit no or forcible resistance to establish rape. Please tell me you’re not as stupid as BANGS. PLEASE.
 

Dunki

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That isn't a normal consent law. Normal consent laws do not require an explicit no or forcible resistance to establish rape. Please tell me you're not as stupid as BANGS. PLEASE.

Wait what? What does it require then?

A NO or rejectable gesture means no consent was given and would be classified as rape.. This is what consent law means. And this is how it is stated in many countries. Again the Swedish one is called revolutionary and world first. So how does that make sense?
 

BANGS

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That isn’t a normal consent law. Normal consent laws do not require an explicit no or forcible resistance to establish rape. Please tell me you’re not as stupid as BANGS. PLEASE.

See? He just resorts to insult while speaking nonsense...

What the fuck else is rape besides having sex with someone who makes it clear they don't want to have sex? So if I bang my girl out without asking her it's rape because she never specifically said she wants me? Body language means nothing? Wtf...
 

Dude Abides

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Wait what? What does it require then?

A NO or rejectable gesture means no consent was given and would be classified as rape.. This is what consent law means. And this is how it is stated in many countries. Again the Swedish one is called revolutionary and world first. So how does that make sense?

There is no “normal consent law.” Some places still require a clearly stated no or forcible resistance. BANGS likes these because if it weren’t for date rape he’d never get laid. Other jurisdictions provide that lack of consent can be infrerrdd from the circumstance and doesn’t require an explicit no or fighting back. Other jurisdictions require affirmative consent, either express or implied, like the proposed Swedish law.
 

T.v

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or otherwise shown they are willing to participate.
Wouldn't this line make the entire law pointless? With it it's still going to end up as a "he said, she said" situation, just like we have now. Without it you can never again comfortably have sex without explicit proof of consent.
 

MastAndo

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Isn't that a George Michael song?

Nothing gets those romantic juices flowing like signing paperwork. Rawr.
 

Blood Borne

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As usual, leftists believe legislation is the answer to everything. This bill is going to be abused. It's like the purpose of the feminist movement is create a divide between man and woman.

The left is now legislating relationships. How we interact with each other. No more organic human interaction.