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[Zabant]

So not only did they completely bring this on themselves, now we can surmise that someone involved in SXSW's scheduling is a Gator or a Gator sympathizer. Idiots.

So by not outright refusing a gamergate panel you're assuming that the staff at SXSW must be gators?

Can you not see how this kind of leap in logic is bad? Shutting down all discussion is not in the best interest of an event like SXSW. It took actual death threats till they decided that they had to stop the panel, that should show that the event coordinators are determined for their event to be an open platform for all.

This shit is not going to go away as it's been more than a year, the only way forward is for some kind of dialogue and reconciliation to take place.

Trust me, i'm as pissed off as anyone about the panels being cancelled.

 

[Scizzy]

People might also forget that this happened. I can only imagine that prepping for death and bomb threats would balloon the security budget. One of the larger industry get togethers would probably be a more realistic venue to make it happen if people are going to act like complete nut jobs.

Like, if they can't handle the logistics of hosting panels that draw this level of harassment, fine (though if anyone could, surely it's SXSW), but just admit it and don't go around upholding the sanctity of your "big tent" in your statement afterwards.

 

[Opto]

Open Gaming Society (wtf does that even mean) said they're going to be on Honey Badger radio. The same Honey Badgers that defend MRAs? Eugh

And then some organizer of the open gaming society got pissy at Austin Walker that he wasn't directly contacted for comment despite, you know, you reach out to the org for a comment and not the individual...

Edit: ah I see h was already mentioned: MetalPixel. What a baby

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Open Gaming Society (wtf does that even mean) said they're going to be on Honey Badger radio. The same Honey Badgers that defend MRAs? Eugh

And then some organizer of the open gaming society got pissy at Austin Walker that he wasn't directly contacted for comment despite, you know, you reach out to the org for a comment and not the individual...

Edit: ah I see h was already mentioned: MetalPixel. What a baby

Wait. How did Austin Walker get involved?

 

[SixMachine]

EDIT: Also, for those who have never been to SXSW - it's not in a given building any more - it's basically strewn out across several blocks of Austin in the open. Security (see: 2014) is nearly impossible.

I went to SXSW last year and this is basically how it was. If you wanted to see everything you had to walk quite a bit. Just getting to the Frank Frazetta exhibit from the Palmer Center, where the video games part was held, would have took me about 20-30 minutes walking because it was absolutely hectic with all the traffic too. A lot of it is outdoors too, such as a lot of tech showcases and the robot petting zoo behind the Palmer Center. Basically they have volunteers just checking armbands and they aren't going to search backpacks and everyone walking in, someone can easily just walk in with something. There is security but it takes over such a large area, that if someone wanted something to happen, they can make it happen imo.

 

[TSM]

Like, if they can't handle the logistics of hosting panels that draw this level of harassment, fine (though if anyone could, surely it's SXSW), but just admit it and don't go around upholding the sanctity of your "big tent" in your statement afterwards.

Not that this is their reason, but telling people you won't be able to provide adequate security for your event is probably not the best PR move you can make.

 

[The Technomancer]

Wait. How did Austin Walker get involved?

He just did a short piece on GiantBomb about it

 

[Outrun]

It is a liability issue.

If something was to go down, SXSW would catch even more shit than they are now....

Uttering threats is no laughing matter. The police should get on this immediately.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

So by not outright refusing a gamergate panel you're assuming that the staff at SXSW must be gators?

No, but refusing to listen to people's feedback does bring up the question as to "why?".

Can you not see how this kind of leap in logic is bad? Shutting down all discussion is not in the best interest of an event like SXSW. It took actual death threats till they decided that they had to stop the panel, that should show that the event coordinators are determined for their event to be an open platform for all.

Do you honestly think that GamerGate actually has anything worthwhile to say? What possible outcome are you imagining? What possible benefit?

 

[Robaperas]

Wait. How did Austin Walker get involved?

He just did a short piece on GiantBomb about it

Just don't read the comments on it, some of them bring back memories of GG threads past.

 

[Nanashrew]

Even if you're nice to any of the members of GamerGate, they don't want actual discussion. Any of the nice ones immediately go behind your back to tell their buddies on KiA or 8chan of how they're using you.

 

[Zabant]

Do you honestly think that GamerGate actually has anything worthwhile to say?

I think they have just as much right to speech as any other panel.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I think they have just as much right to speech as any other panel.

You don't know anything about GamerGate, do you?

 

[Zabant]

You don't know anything about GamerGate, do you?

What are you trying to imply here?

It's not like they were going to host a panel titled '101 ways to harass women online' the panel was SavePoint - A Discussion on the Gaming Community

Of course I know what gamergate is, please don't be so condescending.

 

[Vyse24]

Someone refresh my memory: Didn't a panel that was pro-GG get kicked out of an expo earlier in the year for harassment, then tried to make it look liked they were set up or something?

Had a feeling the same would eventually happen had the panel not get cancelled here. Thankfully, we'll never know.

 

[Tybolt]

You don't know anything about GamerGate, do you?

The caveat of free speech/allowing acceptance/etc. is that you also do have to try to accept people with views opposite of yours as well. It sounds like SXSW tried to give both platforms a place to speak. I know you're very clearly anti-GG but both groups having echochambers is hugely detrimental to finding an actual solution to the issue on both sides. That said, a convention like SXSW does have liabilities and while they assumed the #GG one was going to be very charged, they did what they could do allow it to happen, which is commendable. The only issue here to you is that the threats didn't happen to that panel, and I think trying to afford some neutrality here would help a lot.

I think it may be a bit hard for you to accept it, but GamerGate related panels ALSO get threatened and shut down in when they pop up. Both sides have people who can be blindly zealous or carelessly willing to threaten violence and this too obscures the chance for there to be a legitimate discussion. Also, you may find it interesting that seemingly a good portion of the demographic of the group active on the hashtag right now didn't even know about this panel at all until after this situation started. Not everyone in this thing is a proverbial boogeyman out to kick down the sand castle and thinking otherwise is also a big part of preventing resolution.

 

[Dead Man]

Well I think it was said best above. There's no forum for these individuals, only the wild expanses of Twitter, and those are at best the wild bleating of a supine mountain goat. I just feel like we here at NeoGAF, as a forum, need to do something about this.

I've had the topic about this with my wife, and she feels I have no place in this discussion. Because I'm not a feminist. And why am I not a feminist? Because I'm a man, and in her opinion, every man has the intrinsic belief that women are inferior. It's written in our genetic code. And thus, we can't be on the side of Anita Sarkessian and the anti-harassment front because, put quite simply, we're not women.

This greatly upsets me, because everyone is making this out to be a gender issue. It is, yes, but the fact of the matter is, when you are harassed, based whether it be your gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, fuck, even your choice of favorite developer, console or smartphone, it's not cool. And I'm goddamn sick of it.

Jesus, I've been mocked for being a Nintendo fan. MERCILESSLY. I've had death threats, saying I live in my mom's basement, never met a woman (happily married 3 years), never had sex (first child coming in January, do the math), I'm not sayng that what's happening to me is anywhere near on par this situation, I'm just saying that harassment is everywhere, and it's time to stop it.

There's no good way to tell you this, but your wife is really, really wrong. Like so wrong I would suggest she needs to be avoided, that sounds like some toxic shit.

Edit: sorry if that offends you, or is not the right reading of the situation. That view is just not something I could accept someone thinking about me and still be in a relationship with them. Hope I just have it all wrong

 

[Opto]

Wait. How did Austin Walker get involved?

He did the write up of the cancellation of the panels.

https://twitter.com/austin_walker/status/658834362910158849
https://twitter.com/PixelMetal/status/658834119447728128

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

You don't know anything about GamerGate, do you?

Do you know that this was titled a 'Save point - gaming community' panel, not '#GG Gamergate super hashtag" panel, right? none of the panelists were tier-1 obvious gamergators. Placing the blame on SXSW for not blocking this panel assumes a level of knowledge on the issue that very, very few people have.

E: and to rebuke in advance the obvious response to this, even the phrase "ethics in gaming journalism" which was in the panel description, means nothing to 95% of the gaming community, much less the the greater tech community. SXSW is not a gaming conference, or even a tech conference. It's an amorphous, weird, indefinable cultural event. Hell, the most famous part of it is the film festival. The amount of accountability people are holding against one or three people on the panel registration staff is silly and unrealistic.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

The caveat of free speech/allowing acceptance/etc. is that you also do have to try to accept people with views opposite of yours as well. It sounds like SXSW tried to give both platforms a place to speak. I know you're very clearly anti-GG but both groups having echochambers is hugely detrimental to finding an actual solution to the issue on both sides. That said, a convention like SXSW does have liabilities and while they assumed the #GG one was going to be very charged, they did what they could do allow it to happen, which is commendable. The only issue here to you is that the threats didn't happen to that panel, and I think trying to afford some neutrality here would help a lot.

I think it may be a bit hard for you to accept it, but GamerGate related panels ALSO get threatened and shut down in when they pop up. Both sides have people who can be blindly zealous or carelessly willing to threaten violence and this too obscures the chance for there to be a legitimate discussion. Also, you may find it interesting that seemingly a good portion of the demographic of the group active on the hashtag right now didn't even know about this panel at all until after this situation started. Not everyone in this thing is a proverbial boogeyman out to kick down the sand castle and thinking otherwise is also a big part of preventing resolution.

There is no solution to be found in dialogue. The solution lies in the complete and utter annihilation of gamergate. These are people who literally believe they are at the frontlines of a culture war and will create elaborate fantasies to support their narrative. If you think dialogue will somehow create understanding, then I'm afraid creationists, anti vaccers and global warming deniers have some pretty bad news for you.

 

[FranXico]

There is no solution to be found in dialogue. The solution lies in the complete and utter annihilation of gamergate. These are people who literally believe they are at the frontlines of a culture war and will create elaborate fantasies to support their narrative. If you think dialogue will somehow create understanding, then I'm afraid creationists, anti vaccers and global warming deniers have some pretty bad news for you.

Isn't that confrontational language actually encouraging their fantasies?

You can't claim that there is no war (which personally is my view, really) and then brand a few fools as a group that must be "completely and utterly annihilated". When you make that division, you really are by definition at war with them.

 

[Nanashrew]

There is no solution to be found in dialogue. The solution lies in the complete and utter annihilation of gamergate. These are people who literally believe they are at the frontlines of a culture war and will create elaborate fantasies to support their narrative. If you think dialogue will somehow create understanding, then I'm afraid creationists, anti vaccers and global warming deniers have some pretty bad news for you.

Good comparisons in the fact that some like global warning deniers are always trying to confuse the populace to facts. Same thing GG does day in and day out in trying to get people to their side using the same information that was debunked last year. They have nothing at all to contribute and I don't honestly believe they ever will.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Do you know that this was titled a 'Save point - gaming community' panel, not '#GG Gamergate super hashtag" panel, right? none of the panelists were tier-1 obvious gamergators. Placing the blame on SXSW for not blocking this panel assumes a level of knowledge on the issue that very, very few people have.

What are you trying to imply here?

It's not like they were going to host a panel titled '101 ways to harass women online' the panel was SavePoint - A Discussion on the Gaming Community

Of course I know what gamergate is, please don't be so condescending.

I was not talking about Save Point but the actual Gamergate panel, so obviously we just had a misunderstanding.

 

[Tybolt]

There is no solution to be found in dialogue. The solution lies in the complete and utter annihilation of gamergate. These are people who literally believe they are at the frontlines of a culture war and will create elaborate fantasies to support their narrative. If you think dialogue will somehow create understanding, then I'm afraid creationists, anti vaccers and global warming deniers have some pretty bad news for you.

I don't think anyone actively involved in #GamerGate actually thinks this. I certainly don't! If someone's really that ridiculous, they're probably being pushed out by the rest of the movement. It's very quick to turn on folks who are attempting destructive actions, although it's hard to find that out depending on where you get your information about it from.

 

[Zabant]

There is no solution to be found in dialogue. The solution lies in the complete and utter annihilation of gamergate.

Your solution will not work, I think that much is obvious by simple observation of the current situation.

As long as free speech is still a thing there will be no 'complete and utter annihilation of gamergate' just as you cannot 'annihilate' creationists, anti vaccers and global warming deniers.

Marginalising these groups into silence through ridicule, intimidation or censorship is not the correct cause of action, history tells us as much.

We have to come to a mutual understanding.

I was not talking about Save Point but the actual Gamergate panel, so obviously we just had a misunderstanding.

Save Point WAS the gamergate panel. It was put together by Open Gaming Society, which has its origin on KotakuInAction. The panellists that were scheduled to be on it were self proclaimed gamergate supporters.

What other gamergate panel are you referring to?

 

[Nanashrew]

I still remember talking to GGers last year in thinking there could be a dialogue between the two camps but it was impossible. They used tactics to try to confuse you and question your information, and if given proof to something they immediately deny your proof and they purposefully made the conversation go in circles. Nice ones talk behind your back in how they are using you and trying to get a rise out of you in some way, build you up and try to tear you down.

There's no real way to get through to any of them.

EDIT: /b/ tactics are what some referred them using all the time.

 

[Zaptruder]

Isn't that confrontational language actually encouraging their fantasies?

You can't claim that there is no war (which personally is my view, really) and then brand a few fools as a group that must be "completely and utterly annihilated". When you make that division, you really are by definition at war with them.

Pretty much. It's kinda hard for moral crusaders on either side of the fence to step outside themselves and realize what they're doing when they're so certain of their own moral convictions.

And I'm making this point very generally - without commentary on what is been morally crusaded upon. So don't view it as an attack upon one group or the other - take it as a moment to step back and consider more effective courses of action and thought that better account for the heavily entrenched nature of human behaviour.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

We have to come to a mutual understanding.

One of the rules of Gamergate as outlined in Project Volcano was to constantly change topics as to confuse your opponent. Another was to deny Gamergate exists.

These are not stable individuals. You'll come to as much understanding with them as anti-vaxxers and holocaust deniers. You're basically asking the US and ISIS to come to an understanding.

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

I was not talking about Save Point but the actual Gamergate panel, so obviously we just had a misunderstanding.

Ok, im genuinely confused - What panel are we talking about, then? Becuase the panel KiA is really pissed about (and I assume other GG forums, but im not going further down that rabbit hole) being cancelled is the SavePoint one.


Jezebel writes in this article:

Earlier this week, Vice’s Motherboard blog reported that a panel called “SavePoint: A Discussion on the Gaming Community” had also been added to the agenda. It was to feature Nick Robalik and Perry Jones, both pro-Gamergate game developers, Mercedes Carrera, an adult film star who has become a vocal Gamergate supporter, and Lynn Walsh, an NBC producer and the president-elect for the Society of Professional Journalists, who appeared at a previous Gamergate gathering which organizers claimed had to be cancelled midway through the event due to bomb threats.

Link: http://jezebel.com/citing-violent-threats-sxsw-cancels-both-pro-and-anti-1738793174
No reference to another GG panel.


Sure seems like the GG panel to me. There was *another* GG panel?

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Your solution will not work, I think that much is obvious by simple observation of the current situation.

As long as free speech is still a thing there will be no 'complete and utter annihilation of gamergate' just as you cannot 'annihilate' creationists, anti vaccers and global warming deniers.

Marginalising these groups into silence through ridicule, intimidation or censorship is not the correct cause of action, history tells us as much.

We have to come to a mutual understanding.



Save Point WAS the gamergate panel. It was put together by Open Gaming Society, which has its origin on KotakuInAction. The panellists that were scheduled to be on it were self proclaimed gamergate supporters.

What other gamergate panel are you referring to?

That's EXACTLY how you deal with them. Why do you think those groups garnered the influence that they did? Because they were allowed platforms and avenues to communicate their beliefs, which in turn gave them a sense of legitimacy and elevated their status beyond the drivel that they are.

 

[Zabant]

One of the rules of Gamergate as outlined in Project Volcano

What? Source on this.

 

[Tybolt]

What? Source on this.

Seconded, please! I've never heard of this and I've been involved in it from the start. A quick search shows that this "project" being mentioned only on GAF with no actual explanation as to what it is.

 

[MUnited83]

Your solution will not work, I think that much is obvious by simple observation of the current situation.

As long as free speech is still a thing there will be no 'complete and utter annihilation of gamergate' just as you cannot 'annihilate' creationists, anti vaccers and global warming deniers.

Marginalising these groups into silence through ridicule, intimidation or censorship is not the correct cause of action, history tells us as much.

We have to come to a mutual understanding.



Save Point WAS the gamergate panel. It was put together by Open Gaming Society, which has its origin on KotakuInAction. The panellists that were scheduled to be on it were self proclaimed gamergate supporters.

What other gamergate panel are you referring to?

This is literally impossible. There's no mutual understanding to be achieved with hate groups. Fuck em.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

I don't think anyone actively involved in #GamerGate actually thinks this. I certainly don't! If someone's really that ridiculous, they're probably being pushed out by the rest of the movement. It's very quick to turn on folks who are attempting destructive actions, although it's hard to find that out depending on where you get your information about it from.

Yet Milo is a figurehead of your joke of a movement. Get real.

 

[Tybolt]

Yet Milo is a figurehead of your joke of a movement. Get real.

I didn't put him there and I don't consider him a figurehead of anything I believe in regarding it, as we're often at odds. The entire problem with either side of these echo chambers is that the loudest person is considered the voice, whether it's the case or not.

 

[Nanashrew]

I remember Project Volcano, I think it originally started on 8chan which recently got delisted from Google because 8chan was hosting real child pornography and harboring pedophiles. The owner freaked out and tried to wipe everything. Maybe Project Volcano is still archived somewhere, I dunno.

There is a Medium article on that the other thing 8chan did though called "The Mods are Always Asleep." Contains a lot of investigative journalism and blurred images. 8chan is where the collective of GamerGate go, or KiA. These members are so bad, they were exiled from 4chan, they also had a dedicated board called Baphomet where they have specialty hackers who will swat you or dig up information about you. I also remember that board getting semi wiped when they went too far and got personal information from a politician.

EDIT: There we go! There's the image about Project Volcano from HP_Wuvcraft below.

 

[Krabboss]

So by not outright refusing a gamergate panel you're assuming that the staff at SXSW must be gators?

Can you not see how this kind of leap in logic is bad? Shutting down all discussion is not in the best interest of an event like SXSW. It took actual death threats till they decided that they had to stop the panel, that should show that the event coordinators are determined for their event to be an open platform for all.

This shit is not going to go away as it's been more than a year, the only way forward is for some kind of dialogue and reconciliation to take place.

Trust me, i'm as pissed off as anyone about the panels being cancelled.

There's no discussion needed for GG. It's a poorly disguised hate campaign.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Seconded, please! I've never heard of this and I've been involved in it from the start. A quick search shows that this "project" being mentioned only on GAF with no actual explanation as to what it is.

Here you go. Of course, you'll just say that it's just a post about spreading the truth about game journalism.

Also, I'm interested in hearing what this "understanding" would look like. What exactly needs to be understood? The party that hates women will keep on hating women. The party that.... well, doesn't.... will keep on fighting hate speech and death threats.

 

[Codeblue]

A panelist from the GG related panel that Zoe Quinn talked about is now telling the speakers of the anti-harassment panel to lawyer up:

You'd think a GG supporter would know more than anyone else that you can make death threats all day long on the internet without consequence. Why would he waste his time?

 

[googleplex]

I think they have just as much right to speech as any other panel.

Then you're a fool. You don't bring in any hate group into your event. You'd only be giving them credibility. That that what GG is. A hate group.

 

[Krabboss]

Then your a fool. You don't bring in any hate group into your event. You'd only be giving them credibility. That that what GG is. A hate group.

Not to mention the fact nobody is owed free speech at a private event.

GGers have got a pretty poor understanding of what free speech actually means. For some reason they think it means they deserve to have their bile heard.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

I didn't put him there and I don't consider him a figurehead of anything I believe in regarding it, as we're often at odds. The entire problem with either side of these echo chambers is that the loudest person is considered the voice, whether it's the case or not.

Like it or not, he and his MRA friends are the face and voice of gamergate. If you don't like it, feel free to join a group that doesn't spend it's free time sending rape threats to women. Otherwise, don't be surprised to be lumped in with all the other pieces of shit.

 

[Zeyphersan]

Not to mention the fact nobody is owed free speech at a private event.

GGers have got a pretty poor understanding of what free speech actually means. For some reason they think it means they deserve to have their bile heard.

Judging by this thread and that Richard Dawkins thread in the OT, so does this website

 

[Spinifex]

Judging by this thread and that Richard Dawkins thread in the OT, so does this website

It's certainly an interesting contrast of opinions between that thread and this one.

 

[Sylverstone14]

Well, guess that's the way it is.

No one gets a panel, have a nice day.

 

[Trickshot]

I hate the way death threats are thrown around so much. I don't like those people. Why must they be so mean to everyone who tries to help better their HOBBY.

Jeez.

 

[Tybolt]

Here you go. Of course, you'll just say that it's just a post about spreading the truth about game journalism.

Also, I'm interested in hearing what this "understanding" would look like. What exactly needs to be understood? The party that hates women will keep on hating women. The party that.... well, doesn't.... will keep on fighting hate speech and death threats.

This post is garbage. If I get this right, someone is claiming to be the "leader" on top of everything else? I'd completely throw it away as someone just trying to stir something up and immediately discredit that shit right on the spot on that merit alone. Also, none of the strategies here have ever been employed by #GamerGate because they're stupid. This is the stupidest thing I've read all night. My only complaint is that whatever source feeding this shit to you as "what #GG actually believes" is giving you some really bad (but apparently quite taken) bait.

The "understanding" comes from realizing that the demographics of "men who hate women and call in bomb threats" and "people who don't want the gaming industry to be a crooked circlejerk run on paid reviews, bias, and on-disc DLC torn from the game to sell later" are not the same demographic. The latter is against the former too, but the loud voices who just want to cause trouble prevent the message from being clearly made.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

The 'Leader' or 'Leader of GamerGate' name is a tongue-in-cheek title every anonymous poster on 8chan's /gg/ board automatically gets whenever they post.

 

[danm999]

I've said a few times if you want to know precisely what GamerGate is all about, you only need to look at the initial use of the hashtag.

 

[stupei]

This post is garbage. If I get this right, someone is claiming to be the "leader" on top of everything else? I'd completely throw it away as someone just trying to stir something up and immediately discredit that shit right on the spot on that merit alone. Also, none of the strategies here have ever been employed by #GamerGate because they're stupid. This is the stupidest thing I've read all night. My only complaint is that whatever source feeding this shit to you as "what #GG actually believes" is giving you some really bad (but apparently quite taken) bait.

The "understanding" comes from realizing that the demographics of "men who hate women and call in bomb threats" and "people who don't want the gaming industry to be a crooked circlejerk run on paid reviews, bias, and on-disc DLC torn from the game to sell later" are not the same demographic. The latter is against the former too, but the loud voices who just want to cause trouble prevent the message from being clearly made.

But almost all those things you are expressing as concerns are, for example, something Giant Bomb has been very vocal about and they are considered anti-GG and targets of GG for being "pro-SJW." Most of the people GG targets are indie developers who do not have money to pay for reviews or influence and do not have the kind of games that release DLC. When was the last time GG went after EA? Where was GG on the Deus Ex pre-order nonsense? The only thing they seem particularly concerned with is whether or not developers can enjoy their "vision" of nearly naked women.

You're right that they're different groups of people, but you're mistaken about which one wears which label.