hydrophilic attack
Member
They make comics.
It's 2017.
Done.
It's 2017.
Done.
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The Atlantic: 'The Real Reasons for Marvel Comics Woes'
- Thread starter LordOfLore
- Start date
Glad they brought up the constant relaunching and new #1s.
That shit has been bugging me for years. Its meant to make easier to decipher jumping on points but when they do it so damn often, seems like it misses the point and just becomes a part of the problem they were trying to solve when there are like 18k different volumes of the Avengers.
That shit has been bugging me for years. Its meant to make easier to decipher jumping on points but when they do it so damn often, seems like it misses the point and just becomes a part of the problem they were trying to solve when there are like 18k different volumes of the Avengers.
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
It's fantastic.
Sure, Jan.
Why are DC and Image doing so well then?
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Valtýr;237910272 said:
Yeah but they are in competition with each other. So are movies and TV shows for that matter.
But there was definitely a time when comic books cost way less in relation to novels and single issues took much longer to read in relation to now. In fact it was that way for most of the history of comics.
Pandora012
Member
As long as they don't cancel Uncanny Avengers they will continue to be in my good graces. That and the new she-hulk are the only marvel comics I regularly read. Jane-Thor is good, but I'll get those in trade down the line.
2016, the comic business made almost a billion
This is me. Right down to the exact same age.
I'm into nerd shit. I spend money on board games and Amiibo and would be very willing to spend some dough on comics several times a year. But instead if just pick up the latest Saga and Black Science trades and that's it, because monthly comics are a completely impenetrable mess.
I mean even the things that were done to try to solve for this, like Ultimate, end up becoming a mess given a long enough timeline.
Jeronimo Jones
Member
I'm nowhere near a hardcore follower of comics so I know nothing about most of these writers or their comments and temperaments.
The confusion over where to start and how things connect is real though. I've been sticking to occasionally reading older stuff on Unlimited and Black Panther is the only new series I actively read. I've been digging into Image Comics for a different vibe since I found Saga.
The confusion over where to start and how things connect is real though. I've been sticking to occasionally reading older stuff on Unlimited and Black Panther is the only new series I actively read. I've been digging into Image Comics for a different vibe since I found Saga.
Dreams-Visions
Member
If I might co-sign, I discovered comics at my local corner store. I think my first comic was a Star Trek comic. But it turned into 7 or 8 years of regular collection of new releases and maybe 300 comics bought between new releases and flea market pickups. I eventually started getting my comics from a comic store, but had it not been their for their availability at regular stores, I'm pretty sure that I would have never picked up a comic. Or certainly not many. Not if I had to go to a dedicated store to get them.
I haven't collected comics since the late 90s and I didn't even notice that they stopped selling them at stores until GAF pointed it out to me recently. Seems like a good way to cut off your pipeline which I would think starts with younger readers (I started at maybe 11 or 12 and continued through 17 or 18).
So yea. If there is a problem with their ability to find, attract and hold a younger audience, they ought to start there.
God, I hate this so much.
I also don't hate Slott as a person. He can be good writer as well. But we seriously need new blood on Spider-man.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
"Appease the tumblr crowd"? What the hell does that even mean?
Their 80-90's customers have better things to do than read children's books, and comics simply don't appeal to the younger generation. The only times i read a comic is at the dentist's waiting room, and those are bob & bobette translations and donald duck.
And only because there's never a newspaper around.
And only because there's never a newspaper around.
Yeah I remember looking for MCU comics set in between the movies a couple of years ago and being shocked when there weren't any.
I actually do read some of the new Star Wars comics. They're not the greatest thing ever but they're usually pretty enjoyable.
I think it's a safer way of saying SJW.
Spuck-uk
Banned
The cost to keep up with the comics digitally compared to, say, a Netflix/Crunchyroll/Amazon Video subscription is hilariously out of whack.
Maybe you weren't looking hard enough. They've released many MCU comics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Cinematic_Universe_tie-in_comics
hipsterpants
Member
The industry's reliance on the direct market is baffling, especially with the amount of money they make on trades (well, at least DC anyway). Of course Marvel trades are priced horribly so that doesn't help either. They cost the same as if you were just buying the singles monthly (5 issues = $20 trade). Meanwhile DC has some rebirth trades with 8 issues on CMX for $13. Like what the fuck Marvel.
KidGalactus
Member
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
Which is funny since Tumblr is where you see lots of diehard fans, while the anti-SJW people probably just pirate their shit from 4chan.
This is a bad argument.
Yup.
I remember a lot of his posts on the CBR boards. It was....something.
Even when I agreed with him, I couldn't with the way he would say it a lot of the time.
I had to do a double-take as well... Did the Atlantic quote from that "Shut the fuck up, Marvel!" Article?
voodoopanda
Member
Reading old Marvel comics from the 60's is wild compared to the stuff today. I was checking out the early Stan Lee & Jack Kirby Fantastic Four. Each issue is split into three chapters, tells a complete story, usually at an insane lightning pace.
It was kinda amazing how much they stuffed a single issue with. Pretty much everything I knew about Dr. Doom's origin was first told in like half a page worth of panels. They even travel back in time and become pirates for a while in that same issue. All that for 12 cents back then, though I'm not sure what that'd be today w/ inflation.
Feels like what they'd fit into a single issue back then is now stretched out to a year's worth of comics sometimes, so reading a single issue often feels like nothing happens. Of course, it probably isn't quite fair to compare any normal comic to Stan Lee & Jack Kirby basically creating the Marvel universe, and the early 60's were very different from today, but just at a basic structural level the differences are huge.
It was kinda amazing how much they stuffed a single issue with. Pretty much everything I knew about Dr. Doom's origin was first told in like half a page worth of panels. They even travel back in time and become pirates for a while in that same issue. All that for 12 cents back then, though I'm not sure what that'd be today w/ inflation.
Feels like what they'd fit into a single issue back then is now stretched out to a year's worth of comics sometimes, so reading a single issue often feels like nothing happens. Of course, it probably isn't quite fair to compare any normal comic to Stan Lee & Jack Kirby basically creating the Marvel universe, and the early 60's were very different from today, but just at a basic structural level the differences are huge.
To translate: "I heard that they put womenfolk and darkies in their comics! How scandalous!"
So, with many of the above arguments in mind (and I agree with a lot of the criticisms), are there any current books - or writers, that are good at telling single issue stories? Books that make it easy to onboard at any point.
I enjoy good arcs like everyone else, but my on/off/on experience with superhero books is that we rarely get single issue stories anymore. But I could be basing that on my limited reading interest.
One of the things I enjoyed about Alan Moore was his ability to write decent single issue comics (which I know could be gimmicky) - including the 8 page story-within-a-story work on Supreme and other titles.
I enjoy good arcs like everyone else, but my on/off/on experience with superhero books is that we rarely get single issue stories anymore. But I could be basing that on my limited reading interest.
One of the things I enjoyed about Alan Moore was his ability to write decent single issue comics (which I know could be gimmicky) - including the 8 page story-within-a-story work on Supreme and other titles.
KidGalactus
Member
It's nonsense.
If that's what they were trying to do, Cap and Bucky would b making out 24/7.
ScatheZombie
Member
Every single MCU tie-in comic is a single or double issue prelude. They are not full releases. They sell out in the first 30 minutes they hit the shelves and they never have a follow-up or restock.
This is in no way comparable to the consistent, multiple full releases of 20+ issue runs that each individual MCU hero has currently running that have nothing to do with the MCU. For example, if you were interested in MCU Spider-man - they ran a two issue Spider-man Homecoming Prelude comic in March. Meanwhile, there's Spider-man, Spider-man/Deadpool, Amazing Spider-man, Renew Your Vows Spider-man, Scarlet Spider, Earth's Mightiest Heroes Spider-man, Venom Spider-man, Carnage Spider-man, and Spider-Gwen all running at about the same time.
Telling someone they aren't looking hard enough is fucking laughable when there's like a one day window twice in one month to find the 2 run release of MCU Spider-man in the ocean of non-MCU Spider-mans released every week.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Stan and Jack created the Inhumans, Silver Surfer, Galactus, and Black Panther in a span of 7 issues and also managed to fit "This Man, This Monster", which is one of the greatest superhero comics ever written, in those 7 issues.
How about create some new properties. It seems like every guy working on a big superhero book is only doing it so that he/she can also have his creator owned thing on Image that is generally more exciting and tells a story with a beginning middle and end. I don't care about 5 different x-men and spiderman books. Shit is confusing. Most of the superhero books that are good are good because they chose to do something different.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Unironically they should do this to see what it does to sales.
He said there were none. I just pointed out that there were some. Calm down.
Machine
Member
Marvel is definitely the worst offender here. I finally started dropping Marvel books whenever they are relaunched. I fully expect to only have one or two Marvel titles left on my pull list within a year. DC has done its line-wide relaunches but they aren't participating in this fuckery to the same degree and I've found Rebirth to be enjoyable for the most part.
spyroflame0487
Member
I think a few people brought it up here and in the article, but some of the biggest problems are the constant relaunches and prices I think of the comics.
.
I'd honestly like to have comics potentially written by people who worked on the MCU movies, and perhaps can play around in that canon or a similar universe. The Agents of SHIELD comics were great last time I picked them up and even though they weren't canon to the show (and the characters didn't show up in other books I don't think) they were great on their own and able to do stuff the show couldn't...like putting Grant Ward in an Iron Man suit
I think getting some better writers and better artists would be good too
I'd honestly like to have comics potentially written by people who worked on the MCU movies, and perhaps can play around in that canon or a similar universe. The Agents of SHIELD comics were great last time I picked them up and even though they weren't canon to the show (and the characters didn't show up in other books I don't think) they were great on their own and able to do stuff the show couldn't...like putting Grant Ward in an Iron Man suit
KidGalactus
Member
Sectorseven
Member
Inflation or not, a kid could literally find 12 cents in the couch cushions and walk down to the store and buy a comic. Kids today ain't finding $4 in the couch.
LordRaptor
Member
This is how I feel, and can't help but see that there has been a change from predominantly "writing a serial" to "writing for trades" (or 'decompression' was the buzzword describing this most recently)
e:
I mean, the last book I can think of that was very much single issue one and dones, but also developed an overall storyline was Planetary, and god forgive anyone who thinks Planetary is Bad Comics
e2:
I tell a lie, the last comic I can think of that used this format was (also by Warren Ellis) the short lived Moon Knight run
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
The article is spot-on.
Same here. I actively look for comics to buy, but there's a problem when it's $4 a pop for a small slice of story.
I think the through-line of that article is that the comics companies have acted in ways that get existing fans to buy more comics (crossovers, more titles overall) but which end up making it harder to get into comics. Not to go Old Man Yelling At Cloud, but when I was a kid most comics were 1 or 2 parters and many had more than one story in the issue-- a backup feature or the various Giant reprints with multiple stories.
It's *hard* to write a new story every month, which is one reason why stories get stretched out to 6 and 12 issue arcs. But that also makes the value proposition for the new reader much lower. They either gets something incomplete, or wait for the trade. And the trades themselves are expensive.
One of my most favorite comics ever.
Same here. I actively look for comics to buy, but there's a problem when it's $4 a pop for a small slice of story.
I think the through-line of that article is that the comics companies have acted in ways that get existing fans to buy more comics (crossovers, more titles overall) but which end up making it harder to get into comics. Not to go Old Man Yelling At Cloud, but when I was a kid most comics were 1 or 2 parters and many had more than one story in the issue-- a backup feature or the various Giant reprints with multiple stories.
It's *hard* to write a new story every month, which is one reason why stories get stretched out to 6 and 12 issue arcs. But that also makes the value proposition for the new reader much lower. They either gets something incomplete, or wait for the trade. And the trades themselves are expensive.
One of my most favorite comics ever.
This. That's why I read manga exclusively now, they have no (that I know of) storylines that require you to buy, say, chapter xx of Bleach and chapter yy of Naruto to find out what happens next. It's either a one-shot, or it's own mini-series.
LordRaptor
Member
I don't have any insider industry know-how, but all external evidence suggests its the art side of things thats the big bottleneck in getting a book done in a month.
Kind of amazing that with probably the largest potential audience they've ever had thanks to their wild success with the MCU they haven't been able to capitalize on that and are still doing pretty much everything possible to drive away new readers. Pretty much every one of those business practices are why I never got into mainstream comics. Even though I really do like maintstream superheros.
I'll never be into mainstream comics as my consumption habits are just completely incompatible with their business practices. Rarely, if ever, will I buy trades, let alone singles. I like long running series or limited run series that are mostly self contained. I abhor cross overs with the Great Fables Crossover being the most elaborate I ever actually bought into and liked. I approach comics the same way I approach TV shows or books. I want to consume all of it, or as much of it as I can, as fast as I can and I want a complete and well developed story.
Unfortunately I'm finding myself with fewer and fewer options lately as I've exhausted most of the older stuff both in western comics and manga. And while there is still a few good properties coming out from both regions, the rate is still super slow and I hate reading just a single issue at a time so I have to wait many months for at least a few issues to come out so I can binge a little.
I'll never be into mainstream comics as my consumption habits are just completely incompatible with their business practices. Rarely, if ever, will I buy trades, let alone singles. I like long running series or limited run series that are mostly self contained. I abhor cross overs with the Great Fables Crossover being the most elaborate I ever actually bought into and liked. I approach comics the same way I approach TV shows or books. I want to consume all of it, or as much of it as I can, as fast as I can and I want a complete and well developed story.
Unfortunately I'm finding myself with fewer and fewer options lately as I've exhausted most of the older stuff both in western comics and manga. And while there is still a few good properties coming out from both regions, the rate is still super slow and I hate reading just a single issue at a time so I have to wait many months for at least a few issues to come out so I can binge a little.
Absolutely agree on Planetary, and I think it's a good example of how to do single issue/arc storytelling.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Thankfully they didn't reward this kind of behavior by making one of the most infamously late artists in comic book history the publisher of DC comics.
Imagine a project where 6 artists get together and they each draw their own character. Not an issue or a page, their own character in each given panel. With a seventh artist doing the covers
They got 2 issues of 6 planned out
LordRaptor
Member
I just remembered that Warren Ellis Moon Knight run which did this and was also excellent (and short lived)
I have tried to get into comics before, but it's way to overwhelming and I have no idea where to start. Getting into manga was a lot easier for me since series don't crossover with others.
The only comic I was able to get into were the ultimate comics since it sort of restarted the stories.
The only comic I was able to get into were the ultimate comics since it sort of restarted the stories.
Maybe we need some publishers to experiment with how books are published and the structure of the books themselves? That's if they aren't already.
It's a different era, so anthology books don't seem to work anymore. But what about single title books in magazine format, to better emphasize the artwork and maybe allow for more content, as an option? Of course, that would mean rethinking the economics - for the creators and us consumers. That's just one example I can think of at work though
And I understand how difficult it might be to churn out good single issue stories - you could run into creative burn-out trying to produce worthwhile material at a monthly pace. But then, perhaps we should alter our expectations of what we need out of a story each month.
It's a different era, so anthology books don't seem to work anymore. But what about single title books in magazine format, to better emphasize the artwork and maybe allow for more content, as an option? Of course, that would mean rethinking the economics - for the creators and us consumers. That's just one example I can think of at work though
And I understand how difficult it might be to churn out good single issue stories - you could run into creative burn-out trying to produce worthwhile material at a monthly pace. But then, perhaps we should alter our expectations of what we need out of a story each month.