Come on. In the paat couple years, FROM has singlehandedly created/refined a new subgenre. Very, very few developers can claim as much. Whatever you think of their output, it's hard to argue that them making a throwback shmup would somehow be more interesting.
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The Dismissal of Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze
- Thread starter AquaWateria
- Start date
Come on. In the paat couple years, FROM has singlehandedly created/refined a new subgenre. Very, very few developers can claim as much. Whatever you think of their output, it's hard to argue that them making a throwback shmup would somehow be more interesting.
"I'm going to say the things they added don't count because reasons."
The level design was better than DKCR. The music was better. The controls were better. The art design/atmosphere was better. They added more gameplay options with the other characters.
They improved on the game and added some new features without turning the game into a different genre, just as they did for Prime 2 and 3. Just as almost all sequels do.
This is such nonsense. It literally means nothing.
It's an amazing game and it's a game Retro wanted to do, meaning it was unquestionably not a "waste" of their talent.
And that's another meme I always saw around TF. No, you personally not being interested in a game does not mean the developer is "wasting their talent." They made one of the greatest platformers ever. So no.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
I didn't know Tropical Freeze received any sort or backlash of dismissal. I thought it was a fairly successful and well-liked game.
Huh, TIL. TIL, indeed.
Edit: I will say that it really pisses me off that folks seem to think that Retro Studios should be some sort of Metroid-only studio.
Retro Studios needs to hop from IP to IP at a whim, reviving old Nintendo franchises and coming up with their own as well. Limiting them to one franchise is stupid. We've got three great Metroid games from them, let them work on something else.
Huh, TIL. TIL, indeed.
Edit: I will say that it really pisses me off that folks seem to think that Retro Studios should be some sort of Metroid-only studio.
Retro Studios needs to hop from IP to IP at a whim, reviving old Nintendo franchises and coming up with their own as well. Limiting them to one franchise is stupid. We've got three great Metroid games from them, let them work on something else.
TheDinoman
Member
I do think it's a bit unfortunate that Retro wasn't given a third and fourth option (those being reviving another previously dormant IP or making a new IP altogether), but it does show that Retro deliberately choose DK over Metroid, so anyone whining about that is being a bit petty I'd say.
You're right. Making 4 sequels to Demon's Souls has to be the most interesting thing a single developer must have ever done.
Barrel Cannon
Member
It got ignored for a bit by people because the installbase was shit, and the system had so many platformers by that point and not much else.
BloodBourneRobbed
Doesn't really matter DKCR:TF is better than the phenomenal DKC2. As a fanboy of DKC2 who literally grew up on it for years because it was the only non-pack-in SNES game my parents got me, I have a huge nostalgia for DKC2. But even with that DKCR:TF is still way better. It's in my personal top 3 of 2D platformers for me. The holy trinity for me is SMB3, SMW and TF
BloodBourneRobbed
Doesn't really matter DKCR:TF is better than the phenomenal DKC2. As a fanboy of DKC2 who literally grew up on it for years because it was the only non-pack-in SNES game my parents got me, I have a huge nostalgia for DKC2. But even with that DKCR:TF is still way better. It's in my personal top 3 of 2D platformers for me. The holy trinity for me is SMB3, SMW and TF
(Some will argue that SMB1 deserves to be #1 or in the top 3 which I accept but disagree with on a personal level)
Retro crafted one of the highest rated video games ever made. Do you think making a throwback 2D ape platformer is the best use of their talents?
Bloodborne is not a sequel to Demon's Souls.
On mobile and at work, so I don't have the link.
But check out the (I believe) SGDQ 2016 relay race speedrun of DKCR TF. It's amazing.
Found it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uyyRTCBE0c
But check out the (I believe) SGDQ 2016 relay race speedrun of DKCR TF. It's amazing.
Found it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uyyRTCBE0c
megabytecr
Member
Best game on the Wii U for me
Octavianus
Banned
Demon's Souls didn't create or redefine the action rpg genre no matter how much some people like to claim otherwise.
I like 2D platformers so yes I do.
considering the games
absolutely
it'd be silly to think otherwise, they made a genre defining game in Tropical Freeze. may not be to your tastes but that's life.
JaseMath
Member
That's not what I said at all, but okay.
Is tropical freeze screenshot looks to be pre-release or something? I don't recall that level looking like that, I guess I imagined it looking better.
I'll admit some parts of TF look worse than others. But personally, I never had a problem with the way the game looks. Guess I appreciated the look of TF more than others because I already adored the art style of DKCR so seeing an improved version of that was great for me.
You're not making an argument. It's an amazing game. One of the best platformers ever made. And they wanted to make it.
"It isn't the game I wanted" is what you need to say. That's all. The best use of any developer's talents is simply to make an amazing game. And they did.
I don't the complexity of the game is what did it in. I know I didn't buy right out of the gate. There was already so many good platformers in the WiiU's early life, I didn't want another platformer when it was released.
Aso Tropical Freeze was the first major game to be released after a dreadful game drought that cemented the reality that the WiiU was a dud. So getting another platformer didn't feel like the game that was needed to inject life into the system.
Having said that, finally getting to the game months later and playing through with an open mind, it's one of the best games released on the WiiU and one of the best platformers ever made.
But it's what you mean.
If a game developer makes a game that they wanted to make and it ends up being one of the best ever in the that genre, it is not a waste of their talent.
There is no other argument to be had as far as that is concerned. You simply didn't get the game you wanted.
To Far Away Times
Member
It lacks the novelty of DKCR on Wii but I think its a better game. My main thing is I don't really like the character movement and momentum all that much. Still a decent game, but I wouldn't put it up there with the Yoshi's Wooly World.
JaseMath
Member
No, what I meant is that DKCR—an incredible platformer by all measures—was enough. They climbed that mountain, conquered it, and they should've moved on to something else afterward. TF was more of the same. If they wanted to do it, great. Their desire to do an unnecessary sequel isn't going to make me suddenly fall in love with it.
I think my dismissal of it was largely because I was already frustrated that Nintendo weren't releasing many games at the time that made strong/clever use of the gamepad to justify it even being included...
...and I was really expecting that Retro were working on something innovative that would have used the two screen hardware to full effect...
...then they annouced a game that didn't need or use the gamepad at all.
If they'd have included a full touch screen level creator, then I'd likely have been more excited. Spending 3 years on a game that made zero use of the hardware that made Wii U unique..just pissed me off.
...and I was really expecting that Retro were working on something innovative that would have used the two screen hardware to full effect...
...then they annouced a game that didn't need or use the gamepad at all.
If they'd have included a full touch screen level creator, then I'd likely have been more excited. Spending 3 years on a game that made zero use of the hardware that made Wii U unique..just pissed me off.
PumpkinPie
Banned
I felt the controls were sluggish in the first game, and I heard TF was too hard. I've got no time for hard games these days.
The backlash was from people expecting a Metroid game, or something other than "another 2D platformer". I admit I initially passed on the game, mostly because years before it I'd dropped the Wii one after a couple of levels due to the horrible controls. Only after seeing it recommended on GAF over and over I decided to get it. I didn't like it at first but it slowly grew on me and now I have a really hard time not placing it above SMW as the GOAT 2D platformer. It even made come back to DKCR on the 3DS and play it to death as well. The level design is the best I've played in any game ever, it's fucking amazing. I hope we get a DKC trilogy for Switch. Also, it'll suit the system perfectly due to it playing better with the analog stick than with the DPad.
MrCookiepants
Member
It's really not that hard to understand.
Regardless of how amazing and polished and thoughtfully designed this game may be, none of that translated to the pre-release marketing. It looked bland and soulless. The 2D platforming genre was over saturated. This game was not what people were asking for at the time. There was nothing exciting about it.
Same problem with Mario 3D World. People wanted something new and ambitious to blow their socks off. The Wii U NEEDED a game like that. Those games weren't IT. And we know those developers are capable of it.
Tropical Freeze may not have deserved to flop, but I'm glad it did. It taught Nintendo that being safe can backfire.
Regardless of how amazing and polished and thoughtfully designed this game may be, none of that translated to the pre-release marketing. It looked bland and soulless. The 2D platforming genre was over saturated. This game was not what people were asking for at the time. There was nothing exciting about it.
Same problem with Mario 3D World. People wanted something new and ambitious to blow their socks off. The Wii U NEEDED a game like that. Those games weren't IT. And we know those developers are capable of it.
Tropical Freeze may not have deserved to flop, but I'm glad it did. It taught Nintendo that being safe can backfire.
This game was the maximum proof that Nintendo never listen (listened) to fans. Literally every single Nintendo fan out there was asking for Retro to bring either a new Metroid, a new IP or an old IP revival, nobody asked for another DKC game and it sucks it was so badly received because the game is amazing. They even got David Wise into the mix!
TheDinoman
Member
Making an console as unappealing as the Wii U is what really backfired there.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
I watched it and the issue people had was that Tropical Freeze was yet another platformer (2D on top of that) on the WiiU. With Nintendo being basically the sole big publisher on the platform it was irritating for some people that they would focus on that genre with a studio capable to do something else.
Nocturnowl
Member
This is a reasonable response.
It's similarly why I'm not entirely keen on a Metroid Prime 4, they aced that with 1 and delivered a great follow up with 2.
By the time 3 rolled around it was neat sure but nothing more, I'd feel similarly about a DKCR 3 even with a huge love towards the last two.
(2D Metroid or 3D DK though? that I'm game for)
MrSaturn99
Member
I get why people were disappointed but the original GAF thread was really embarassing.
Didnt matter anyway because the game turned out amazing, LOL
Didnt matter anyway because the game turned out amazing, LOL
uncle_koploski
Banned
Amazing game.
Re-release on the switch please.
Re-release on the switch please.
FallingEdge
Member
yes plz
JaseMath
Member
I post/joke about it often, but I'm actually 100% serious when I say it: Retro needs to reboot Star Tropics. Make it into Nintendo's light-hearted, sci-fi version of Uncharted.
MrCookiepants
Member
Tropical Freeze flopped even by Wii U standards.
Nintendo/Retro wanted to do another Donkey Kong because it was a safe bet. It wound up selling worse than the studio's last Metroid game. Lesson learned.
Father_Brain
Banned
I've heard those quotes many times before, and even if one chooses to take them at face value rather than as PR spin (which I don't, personally), it's telling that they apparently weren't given any choice of projects beyond the two IP they'd previously worked on. It doesn't speak well of NCL's management of the studio either way.
A highly rated game in a genre nobody cares about, i think is a big distinction, If Retro is so talented they shouldnt be wasting their time making metroidvanias.
Bruce Springsteen
Member
basically my feeling, it was a well executed game, though way too hard, but it didn't need to exist
tenderbrew
Member
Top 3 platformer at the least and possibly the best platformer of all time. History will be kind to Tropical Freeze.
Schopenhauerian
Member
It's notable that NCL has deferred to the wishes of creators in high-profile instances in the past, but you both raise good points: We don't really know how many options Retro was given (don't know for instance if they had any promising alternatives/prototypes of their own that they wanted to pursue), and these statements only indicate that they preferred to pursue DKC over Metroid. I'm not sure if Shiggy is also suggesting that even that much is suspect, however (the statements were issued some time around Sept 2013, and reveal was June 2013).
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
The GOTY 2014, the best game on the Wii U and tied with Donkey Kong Country 2 as the best platformer of all time.
Screw Metroid. I really hope Retro is working on a third Donkey Kong game. They need to port both Returns and Tropical Freeze to the Switch too.
Screw Metroid. I really hope Retro is working on a third Donkey Kong game. They need to port both Returns and Tropical Freeze to the Switch too.
tenderbrew
Member
Yes to both of these. Please be making a third DKC game and announce at E3 for fall/spring.
AquaWateria
Member
The funny thing is Metroid would of sold worse.
Donkey Kong consistently sells better than Metroid.
I really liked the game, though admittedly, after finishing it, I never went back to it again. I know some people enjoyed the leaderboards and going back for speed runs.
2013 was a strange year for Nintendo because they hyped up a lot of games during E3 and even extended that hype to in-store demos at Best Buy locations (which you can debate was either a good or bad idea depending on crowds, organization, etc).
Just out of the four games they showed at Best Buy, only two made it for the holiday season (Wind Waker HD and Mario 3d World).
It isn't to say that 2D platforming games are dead Nintendo probably had more success on the handheld with Kirby Triple Deluxe/Planet Robobot, New Island, Woolly World, Box Boy series, NSMB2, and Mario Maker. I don't think Chibi-Robo had a great 2D debut and I'm sort of lukewarm about Pikmin turning into a sidescroller. They all operate differently than Mario (except for the mentioned Mario).
The only issue I had with Tropical Freeze was it felt short and slightly easier that Returns. Load times were a drag. I didn't think it was worst. There was enough expanded in the game through multiple characters, level design, and music to make it more than a worthy sequel. There's no doubt as to WHY it had to be made.
The game (and its prequel) deserve a second chance on the Switch and may benefit from the Switch's growing audience.
2013 was a strange year for Nintendo because they hyped up a lot of games during E3 and even extended that hype to in-store demos at Best Buy locations (which you can debate was either a good or bad idea depending on crowds, organization, etc).
Just out of the four games they showed at Best Buy, only two made it for the holiday season (Wind Waker HD and Mario 3d World).
It isn't to say that 2D platforming games are dead Nintendo probably had more success on the handheld with Kirby Triple Deluxe/Planet Robobot, New Island, Woolly World, Box Boy series, NSMB2, and Mario Maker. I don't think Chibi-Robo had a great 2D debut and I'm sort of lukewarm about Pikmin turning into a sidescroller. They all operate differently than Mario (except for the mentioned Mario).
The only issue I had with Tropical Freeze was it felt short and slightly easier that Returns. Load times were a drag. I didn't think it was worst. There was enough expanded in the game through multiple characters, level design, and music to make it more than a worthy sequel. There's no doubt as to WHY it had to be made.
The game (and its prequel) deserve a second chance on the Switch and may benefit from the Switch's growing audience.
Grettir_the_Swole
Member
In all honesty I never thought of giving this game a second glance until I saw all the praise here. Thank god it's cheap as hell because I just splurged on a used copy several days before payday.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
**high five**
As many people already stated, there was immense disappointment thrown at Retro because they made another 2D game/Donkey Kong Country. It's a fantastic game, and I listen to the soundtrack every day, but lots of gamers today are pretty dismissive of 2D games, hence the reception. It's a shame. Beautiful game.
Version 3.0
Member
I adore Tropical Freeze, but I'm still disappointed that was what Retro was working on. The two things aren't mutually exclusive. I'd never pass on a Retro game. In my opinion, they're perhaps the best studio in the business right now. And I think TF was the best platformer of last gen, in a crowded field (on Nintendo's systems, at least).
But I consider 2D platformer to be a fairly shallow genre. Or more objectively, light on content. I got TF day 1, and completed it in full in 2 days. It takes me longer than that, even now, to 100% any of the Prime games. My first playthrough of each was significantly longer.
And, because of the linear and specifically timed nature of the game's mechanics, I feel little urge to replay.
I'll buy Retro's next game as soon as I'm allowed to do so, but I hope it's a meatier game than Tropical Freeze.
But I consider 2D platformer to be a fairly shallow genre. Or more objectively, light on content. I got TF day 1, and completed it in full in 2 days. It takes me longer than that, even now, to 100% any of the Prime games. My first playthrough of each was significantly longer.
And, because of the linear and specifically timed nature of the game's mechanics, I feel little urge to replay.
I'll buy Retro's next game as soon as I'm allowed to do so, but I hope it's a meatier game than Tropical Freeze.
Tropical Freeze was my favorite game on Wii U, by a pretty good margin. But since Metroid Prime is my favorite game of all time it's kind of a bummer for me to see the DK and Metroid fanbases have so much animosity toward one another. I guess when it was revealed that Tropical Freeze was Retro's game in 2013 I was kind of disappointed, but I loved the shit out of what we got.
I'm more disappointed in Nintendo for not increasing Retro's size to have two full development teams. They've commented on the possibility of doing that for years, and still nothing gets done. I get that Retro is probably an expensive studio to maintain, but fuck man, they are among Nintendo's absolute best in-house teams alongside the Zelda team and EAD Tokyo. How about giving out some fucking credit?
I'm more disappointed in Nintendo for not increasing Retro's size to have two full development teams. They've commented on the possibility of doing that for years, and still nothing gets done. I get that Retro is probably an expensive studio to maintain, but fuck man, they are among Nintendo's absolute best in-house teams alongside the Zelda team and EAD Tokyo. How about giving out some fucking credit?
Prince of Space
Banned
I honestly don't get why people are still clamoring for a new Metroid game from Retro when the vast majority of the team responsible for the MP trilogy is no longer with the company.
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