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The Pokémon Company issues statement on Palworld

Fabieter

Member
This will be fascinating. If The Pokemon Company sues/wins there will be HUUUGEE financial repercussions for the Palworld studio since they sold so many units and had so many people engaged with the IP and buzz around it. If they lose/not sue, it gives opportunities for pretty much everyone else to ape and copy Pokemon designs from that point forward.

7pJYKrY.jpg

Not doing anything will have the same outcome. More and more studios will use ai to flood us with cheaply unfinished games.
 

chlorate

Member

Concluding my chat with Cotton, I noted that Palworld giving its Pokémon equivalents guns might be especially provocative for Nintendo, who avoid featuring firearms - and certainly not real-world firearms - in their games. I wondered whether this might make it harder for Nintendo to bring a case of copyright infringement, because after all, everybody knows that Pokémon don't wield assault rifles, and as such, Pals are very decidedly not Pokémon. Cotton suggested, however, that this could get Pocketpair into hot water on another front.

Actually, that could potentially be a ground for them to sue them," he said. "That they are distorting [people's impressions of Pokémon], because of the similarity to Pokémon, although not a direct copy of it, they're almost implying that Pokémon are happy to endorse the gun culture that Pals are doing. That could be an avenue for Nintendo to go down to sue them."

There’s like six different instances in official Pokémon media (generally the anime) where one of the humans points a real gun at someone. The guns don’t besmirch the IP.
 
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Fabieter

Member
There’s like six different instances in official Pokémon media (generally the anime) where one of the humans points a real gun at someone. The guns don’t besmirch the IP.

Do they use pokemon as ammunition? Depending on how nintendo is building their case and what the judge thinks they have a case. Another lawyer said this stuff is always done case by case if it'd difficult to go one way. It's not 100% clear so I wouldnt rule it out.
 
As far as I know ripoffs aren't illegal as long as nothing is copied 1:1 and there were no assets stolen
Production companies like The Asylum have been doing obvious ripoffs for years
Quartermainskulls.jpg
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220px-Poster_of_the_movie_Street_Racer.jpg
Theterminators.jpg
e094b5b65f106ff128a4682eb57f48aee01eb04db5a88ff9fe7a359732fab62c._RI_TTW_.jpg


If anything I'd argue some of these have a bigger chance of being mistaken for "the real product" than Palworld.

Copyright theft and rip-offs are illegal. The only reason you don't see lawsuits is either because it's not worth the time/money for the copyright holder or it's been handled behind close doors with Cease&desist orders.

Sometimes there's too much ambiguity on whether there's been an infringement too, and yes arguably Palworld might fall into that category -- likely not though if they've been dumb enough to modify 3D assets (which seems to be the case) as that'd be easily provable.
 

tkscz

Member
So is it Nintendo who is looking into this or the Pokemon company? I know Nintendo owns like 60% of TPC but how much of their legal department would Nintendo be paying for? If they go into this, would Nintendo foot the court fees and lawyer fees? I say this because if Nintendo is suing someone, normally they would've done it by now. Hell, they would've done it three years ago upon the first trailer. This sounds more like TPC reacting to the insane fans who were most likely bombarding them with emails and tweets to get the game taken down.
 

SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
I don't think we can say it's "clearly" one thing or another. We simply don't know.

Someone did a model comparison on Twitter, but I don't have the interest or the know-how to prove or disprove them. Nintendo has both, so it's likely we will see in the coming days what they think.

I don't think they release this statement if they don't want to sue tho.
The model comparison was misrepresented somewhat because he manipulated the models to make them fit.

The thing is, there really isn't any particular advantage to trying to copy a model like that, unless you're trying to lift animation rigging as well, which Palworld clearly doesn't do (and can't because Pokemon barely has animations and has been recycling them for the last 4 gens).
 

Fabieter

Member
The model comparison was misrepresented somewhat because he manipulated the models to make them fit.

The thing is, there really isn't any particular advantage to trying to copy a model like that, unless you're trying to lift animation rigging as well, which Palworld clearly doesn't do (and can't because Pokemon barely has animations and has been recycling them for the last 4 gens).

That's not true copying a model will help build a familiarity with the customer. They are basically using build in pokemon familiarity to sell their game.
 

SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Copyright theft and rip-offs are illegal. The only reason you don't see lawsuits is either because it's not worth the time/money for the copyright holder or it's been handled behind close doors with Cease&desist orders.
You know absolutely nothing about IP law.

IP law strongly incentives holders to pursue any enforceable claim, and outright punishes those that don't. In fact, failure to "vigorously defend" trademarks can be seen as a grounds to invalidate those trademarks. This is why you often see ridiculous lawsuits like Candy Crush Saga suing Banner Saga, because bringing these sorts of suits establishes a history of defending your brand.

Sometimes there's too much ambiguity on whether there's been an infringement too, and yes arguably Palworld might fall into that category -- likely not though if they've been dumb enough to modify 3D assets (which seems to be the case) as that'd be easily provable.
Or to put it another way: Rip offs and parodies are completely legal as long as they don't use any specific copyrighted or trademarked material.

Using specific assets is another matter, but I haven't found those accusations to be convincing or credible in this case, and I would caution against buying the hype.
 
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Tsaki

Member
No it wont because nothing will happen. Otherwise Square can later on sue the shit out of Nintendo for copying their Dragon Quest designs.
It would be stupid and hypocrite of Nintendo to do this and they damn well know it.
"Square can sue" Yeah, no. Firstly the designs are massively different; lol at the Gyarados comparison to pad out that list. And secondly, they had their chance in the 90s. No court will take them seriously coming at them three decades later.
If Nintendo does nothing, that's fine. I'd love to see "Pokemon" games made by competent developers running on competent hardware.
 

Schmick

Member
This post is so full of shit that I can acutally smell it.

Pokemon fans are that. Pokemon fans. They wouldn't bother with anything else. So PocketPair lost nothing, didn't shoot themselves in the foot or bla, bla.

Just your brainfart/ wishfull thinking.

Now sod off. You are biased and salty. "I'm an Expert" Yeah... dead giveaway that you are a Pokemon fan that wants to see the world burn because of 1 fucking game.
I can't tell if you are being serious or not. You are clearly responding to a parody of a historical post that makes it round on this forum for comedic value. Its not to be taken seriously.

I'm I right lughnasadh123 lughnasadh123 ?
 
You know absolutely nothing about IP law.

IP law strongly incentives holders to pursue any enforceable claim, and outright punishes those that don't. In fact, failure to "vigorously defend" trademarks can be seen as a grounds to invalidate those trademarks. This is why you often see ridiculous lawsuits like Candy Crush Saga suing Banner Saga, because bringing these sorts of suits establishes a history of defending your brand.


Or to put it another way: Rip offs and parodies are completely legal as long as they don't use any specific copyrighted or trademarked material.

Using specific assets is another matter, but I haven't found those accusations to be convincing or credible in this case, and I would caution against buying the hype.

IP laws are there to protect copyright holders, but are only implemented if the holder sees value in making a case. Litigation can be costly, and there's public image involved too.

Rip offs are called rip offs for a reason: someone is being ripped off. In this case alleged IP theft. Copyright has many facets, and it's not black and white. 'Likeness' is an important concept in the area, and laws can be widely different across jurisdictions.

Parodies are not at all the same as rip-offs.

But yes I agree with you that accusations in this case are yet to be compelling.
 

Dynasty8

Member
Even the Nintendo faithful have to understand how much Nintendo/Game Freak have fumbled Pokemon.

A small group of newbie indie developers with barely any experience have made a much better overall product than what a multi billion dollar behemoth who owns the rights to the largest IP in the world is able to do. Not to mention Palworld is in Early Access and cost a fraction of the price whereas Pokemon releases 2 identical versions of the same shitty games to milk more sales. Can't wait for the fanboys to defend this.

All of that is what's shameful to me. Not the "rip off" aspect.
 

SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
IP laws are there to protect copyright holders, but are only implemented if the holder sees value in making a case. Litigation can be costly, and there's public image involved too.
You're describing how you think it should work, not how it actually does. Trademark holders HAVE to go after potential violators or the trademark can be invalidated. Trademark law is notoriously riddled with insane frivolous cases for precisely this reason.
 

MLSabre

Member
This post is so full of shit that I can acutally smell it.

Pokemon fans are that. Pokemon fans. They wouldn't bother with anything else. So PocketPair lost nothing, didn't shoot themselves in the foot or bla, bla.

Just your brainfart/ wishfull thinking.

Now sod off. You are biased and salty. "I'm an Expert" Yeah... dead giveaway that you are a Pokemon fan that wants to see the world burn because of 1 fucking game.
I hope this is a joke post because if not:

Shame Facepalm GIF by MOODMAN

 

SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
That can't be sustained financially or policed.
Most of it amounts to sending out C&Ds to much smaller companies who would rather back down immediately or sign a licensing agreement because litigating would be prohibitively expensive. Only a fraction of these "defenses" of trademarks actually get litigated in court. Often companies actually prefer going after the little guys because the objective isn't to win money, it's to demonstrate a history of defending their IP.

But as for "policing" it, that's not really how it works. It's more that it weakens the claim when challenged. So if a company waits to defend their IP until a "big fish" comes along, because the smaller cases "aren't worth it," the defendants can demonstrate to the court that the trademark holders have failed to vigorously defend their IP when others have used it, and therefore the trademark is invalid.
 

Fabieter

Member
Even the Nintendo faithful have to understand how much Nintendo/Game Freak have fumbled Pokemon.

A small group of newbie indie developers with barely any experience have made a much better overall product than what a multi billion dollar behemoth who owns the rights to the largest IP in the world is able to do. Not to mention Palworld is in Early Access and cost a fraction of the price whereas Pokemon releases 2 identical versions of the same shitty games to milk more sales. Can't wait for the fanboys to defend this.

All of that is what's shameful to me. Not the "rip off" aspect.

Iam not big on pokemon but what's so much better other than its graphics.

Early access games are cheaper most of the time I expect palworld to hit 60 bucks if it ever hits 1.0
 

PaintTinJr

Member
It definitely helped sell their game that everything looks so damn similar and it helped roll the hype in. But it doesn't matter as long as they didn't rip anything if they did than they deserve to get sued to oblivion.
If it helped sell their game and helped get Microsoft to pay to get it on gamepass then chances are the Pokemon company would be successful in the UK, at least to take legal action against them trading their Palworld product via the Pokemon brand, which they obviously have no rights to do so.

I'm not sure if they've said any more about console certification, but on their previous remarks I'm guessing that PlayStation have flagged the IP issue and aren't certify because of the respect for IP creators' works, even a rival like Nintendo, and are giving plenty of time for the Pokemon company to take legal action before allowing it on PlayStation. I think it says a lot about what is wrong with Xbox's lack of IP creation/cultivation that Phil has picked a side, and the one of the derivative product. before any of this has played out.
 

magnumpy

Member
ooooohh drams :eek:

after some consideration, I don't view Palworld as any type of "threat" towards Nintendo/the Pokémon company. no more than Digimon was a threat towards Pokemon.

it's derivative yes, but hopefully they can view this simply as an opportunity to improve upon their existing Pokémon series. which has already faced multiple previous imitators. imitators which some years later no longer exist, while Pokémon continues on.
 

SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Iam not big on pokemon but what's so much better other than its graphics.

Early access games are cheaper most of the time I expect palworld to hit 60 bucks if it ever hits 1.0
It's not really a "better version of Pokemon," it's really way more like Ark (or even Minecraft) than Pokemon, but then it has these Pokemon and Breath of the Wild elements sprinkled in. It doesn't really play much like Pokemon at all, even if it has some of the same appeal.

It's not really a very finished/polished game at all, but it's a really compelling combination of elements with an addictive game loop. But people are taking the opportunity to dunk on Pokemon mostly because of the sorry state of Scarlet/Violet.
 

Holammer

Member
Similar themes and even mechanics are allowed. There's an ironic twist because Data East lost the first case, but later got saved by the precedent set.



Concluding my chat with Cotton, I noted that Palworld giving its Pokémon equivalents guns might be especially provocative for Nintendo, who avoid featuring firearms - and certainly not real-world firearms - in their games. I wondered whether this might make it harder for Nintendo to bring a case of copyright infringement, because after all, everybody knows that Pokémon don't wield assault rifles, and as such, Pals are very decidedly not Pokémon. Cotton suggested, however, that this could get Pocketpair into hot water on another front.

Actually, that could potentially be a ground for them to sue them," he said. "That they are distorting [people's impressions of Pokémon], because of the similarity to Pokémon, although not a direct copy of it, they're almost implying that Pokémon are happy to endorse the gun culture that Pals are doing. That could be an avenue for Nintendo to go down to sue them."
The visual style with more Monster Hunter style armour instead of trendy urban youth clothing, the guns & violence makes the game more visually distinct from Pokemon and that's important because of this case.


tldr: 2012 Tetris Holding sued and won because a clone was too similar on a visual level.
Wolfson [the judge] further wrote "f one has to squint to find distinctions only at a granular level, then the works are likely to be substantially similar".
 

BlackTron

Member
The game is trash and garbage and clearly a nefarious copy of Pokemon, whoever refuses to see that has serious problems. A Pokémon game from Nintendo would sell more. I don't even like Pokémon and the last Pokémon game I played was stadium because of the minigames. I sincerely hope that the games is taken down and the copycat dev is sued till they go bankrupt.
Have a nice day

The only thing you're really wrong about is that apparently the game isn't trash, it's a fun game. The thing is everyone also apparently thinks that the best way to decide a copyright conflict is by asking if its a fun game.
 

Hardensoul

Member
One of the worst events in gaming history and caused a great drought of good JRPG material in the PS3/XB360 era and the start of FF decline.

Square still hasn't recovered from it ages later.
Square Enix shouldn't have even merged
You put the blame into Square moving into this movie! Which would’ve ended Square. But Enix was the one that bailed them out with the merger. Square name maybe first but Enix is the in control. Square is more known in the west that’s why it’s Square Enix not Enix Square!

 

Astray

Gold Member
You put the blame into Square moving into this movie! Which would’ve ended Square. But Enix was the one that bailed them out with the merger. Square name maybe first but Enix is the in control. Square is more known in the west that’s why it’s Square Enix not Enix Square!


My god was that movie awful. Literally had zero fantasy in it.

It was also responsible for Sakaguchi eventually leaving Square.

The merger was planned beforehand tho, and almost got scuppered because of the movie bombing.
 

Hardensoul

Member
My god was that movie awful. Literally had zero fantasy in it.

It was also responsible for Sakaguchi eventually leaving Square.

The merger was planned beforehand tho, and almost got scuppered because of the movie bombing.
True, it was planned and the heavy losses from the movie gave Enix the upper hand. The original Square basically dissolve after merger.
 

RespawnX

Member
Some people don't seem to understand the statement. It's just a simple "S-T-F-U we are aware of Palworld"

Who would have thought that a multi-billion dollar company monitors such projects. Long before some twitter fan warriors.
 

Pigenator

Member
It's pretty stupid how Pokemon fans are all riled up, the games are not remotely similar.
The only similarity is monster design and the fact that they are captured using spherical objects.
Besides that, Palworld is a completely different game in every mechanic.

If somehow TPC sues and wins they might as well copyright the concept of cute monsters that are capable of being captured. Shit's dumb
 

BlackTron

Member
It's pretty stupid how Pokemon fans are all riled up, the games are not remotely similar.
The only similarity is monster design and the fact that they are captured using spherical objects.
Besides that, Palworld is a completely different game in every mechanic.

If somehow TPC sues and wins they might as well copyright the concept of cute monsters that are capable of being captured. Shit's dumb

IMO they have a legitimate case of causing brand confusion with Pokemon (and my last game was LeafGreen). Taken out of context of the game, if you simply saw an artwork or screenshot, you could think you are looking at a Pokemon because the style and design language is so similar (that is, it's the same.) There's no way to own making cartoon pig characters but if you took Peppa Pig and altered the design while keeping the same art style and gave him a gun, that would be creating an association between the brand and guns that they didn't want.

The difference between Pokemon and DQ is immediate and obvious but not the difference between Pokemon and Palworld
 
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