p_xavier
Authorized Fister
Their little baby miracle...
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The Tragedy of Transgender Suicide in a Single Note
- Thread starter Amir0x
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They might also alternatively explain it as a symptom of a child being born into a sinful world, since everyone is tainted with sin it follows that some children would be born with corruptions.
Or something. But I feel this is really a side point, because I don't really see the Bible addressing any issues of transgender nature. I think this is purely motivated by ignorance. From my dealings with religious folk who have discriminated against transgender individuals in the past, one of the common things I've found is many think it's like being 'gay' or 'lesbian' (that is to say, the way THEY view being gay or lesbian) in that it's something that is sexually deviant and is against the natural way of a man lying with a woman. They think it's under that same category. So you have to deal with one ignorance, before you can even deal with the other ignorance in that case
It's that much ignorance we're dealing with, due to the complete lack of education on this subject in public schools (or pretty much anywhere, really).
largely this.
To a lot of them someone like myself is actually a murder in their eyes.
My parents sent me a gift this year and attached to it was a note about how I was killing to their child. I've never felt so numb in my life, but o have your essence be reduced and yet they think they are doing God's work on Jesus birthday.
I took a pic of it and almost posted it on Facebook but then I didn't because I was honestly scared to set off triggers in other people on X Mas.
Don't get me wrong I don't want this to be about me,I'm just showing how deeply entrenched people who are religious can be.
Some are saying maybe they will come around, well it saddens me because there are several of these people that would prefer the death over letting you change.
Monocle
Member
Speaking as a gay guy, looks aren't everything. If you get really great at something creative and kind of out there like, say, sidewalk art (or whatever), people will want to meet you. Gay society is made up of individuals with diverse tastes. Maybe you're just looking in the wrong places. A lot of people appreciate skills and qualities that have nothing to do with looks. There's more to finding companionship than bagging hot hookups every weekend.
I don't want to go overboard with the unsolicited advice, but you might try checking out meetup.com for LGBT-inclusive groups in your area. It's a great way to meet people who share your interests. You'll have a predetermined thing to bond over and you won't have to worry about one-on-one conversations where all the focus is on you.
Religion is not a person.
But is a concept that can be (and typically is) associated with people's conception of self, thus it's as bigoted to tell someone who is religious "If you are offended, go fuck yourself."
I can't fathom how any rational person believes that's the way to go about increasing acceptance and tolerance for any cause.
I was born with a rather annoying congenital disease.
My siblings don't have it. My parents don't have it.
What you call willfully stupid, I, and many others call faith. The belief that there was a higher purpose for why I was the one to receive this unfortunate condition, rather than share happenstance. Thus I've worked my ass off to not be defined by the disease. Nobody even knows there is anything wrong outside my family, unless I share it. Being told that "God doesn't make mistakes" or "God doesn't give anyone more than they can handle" was actually quite helpful for me.
I mean, I could be all pragmatic and think to myself that I simply lost the genetic lottery. But that's quite depressing. Faith isn't intelligent. But it is a means to which people can cope and find solace.
p_xavier
Authorized Fister
If it wouldn't be this, it would be something else. Religious people would be mad at people dancing just a few decades ago. You should never take offense on attacks based on religion, painful as it might be.
Audioboxer
Member
Really sad reading that.
Hopefully one day we'll evolve enough through awareness, understanding and compassion to love our fellow man or woman regardless of looks, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation. If an advanced race exists somewhere in our solar system they'd be disgusted how we treat our fellow humans.
You only need to see how diverse GAF is to be aware of how we can all get along just fine. Bet some of our transgender posters when/if they post about being so make others think oh I wouldn't have thought that... Precisely, it's "irrelevant" in becoming friends with or sharing interests with someone.
Her parents have lost their only chance to bond with and become an integral part of their daughters life. It's always ones own choice to commit suicide, but it's sickening how her parents turned down multiple pleas of help and understanding over many years. It seems they didn't even focus on what matters, why she felt how she did, even if they couldn't understand. One thing I will always do for my kids if I have any, simply ask why they feel how they do if they bring something up I wasn't expecting. Never shut your kids out, listen, ask, learn and love. Ignorance or your upbringing isn't an excuse to deny hearing why they feel/act like they may be. Her mums Facebook post in death is also horribly degrading.
Hopefully one day we'll evolve enough through awareness, understanding and compassion to love our fellow man or woman regardless of looks, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation. If an advanced race exists somewhere in our solar system they'd be disgusted how we treat our fellow humans.
You only need to see how diverse GAF is to be aware of how we can all get along just fine. Bet some of our transgender posters when/if they post about being so make others think oh I wouldn't have thought that... Precisely, it's "irrelevant" in becoming friends with or sharing interests with someone.
Her parents have lost their only chance to bond with and become an integral part of their daughters life. It's always ones own choice to commit suicide, but it's sickening how her parents turned down multiple pleas of help and understanding over many years. It seems they didn't even focus on what matters, why she felt how she did, even if they couldn't understand. One thing I will always do for my kids if I have any, simply ask why they feel how they do if they bring something up I wasn't expecting. Never shut your kids out, listen, ask, learn and love. Ignorance or your upbringing isn't an excuse to deny hearing why they feel/act like they may be. Her mums Facebook post in death is also horribly degrading.
I didn't say "go fuck yourself", I said that's their problem. Someone making religion connected to their concept of self is their own choice; it does not absolve religion from being 100% open to full and vigorous critique of the harshest kind, the same as any subject that makes huge claims about the nature of the universe (including any scientific topic, for that matter).
It's like if I said "football is deeply connected to my sense of self" (and surprise, it actually is for some folk) and then you insulted a football organization. That's not insulting the person, nor is it bigoted or intolerant. It's critiquing the organization on real grounds. Nobody gets to fence off religion from criticism, they don't have the right. No special protection for the subject, just like any other subject which makes claims about the nature of the universe. If you think this is "intolerant", it is time to reevaluate what you think intolerance actually means.
We're off topic so that'll be my last comment on that.
Maybe it isn't solely Christianity's fault that people say things like "God doesn't make mistakes, he loves you exactly as you are", but religion is definitely used as an excuse. Without the Bible telling people "sex is between a man and a woman", there isn't a good reason that people should be so against homosexuality. Transgenderism challenges gender norms and for Christianity tends lumped with the whole sexual deviancy thing.
Unfortunate for such a person to be able to adequately reason why the situation of life is no longer worth betting on, even if all of the reasons are thanks to external attitudes and impositions pressed on the individual. I find it a little bewildering that in that note the points and arguments for sorrow seem to be actually founded in her life, as we often make the distinction that suicide is always done by a confusing attitude, that the subjective ideas don't stand up to inspection, as if the claims made were not founded. I find very little of a warped conditioning in the letter, especially when religion is involved that always imposes onto people that they're born on probation, that they're candidates of worth, and instills incredibly cancerous attitudes about the "worth" of people, which never does any good.
What upsets me the most is despite her desires in hoping her death would mean something, I am only reminded of the institutionalized racism and gun-fetishization that leads to shootings in this country, and the problems they make. Many of the deaths in those types of social issues only boil up to statistics in our society, and I would not be taken aback if the same follows here, that this kind of thing becomes yet another statistic in a toxic, egocentric society that cares for labels and poor status quos over life itself. Our social ego would only undergo change if many people choose to really, honestly question themselves and the social game we play onto the world. Very few in this country seem sincerely interested in inquiring.
What upsets me the most is despite her desires in hoping her death would mean something, I am only reminded of the institutionalized racism and gun-fetishization that leads to shootings in this country, and the problems they make. Many of the deaths in those types of social issues only boil up to statistics in our society, and I would not be taken aback if the same follows here, that this kind of thing becomes yet another statistic in a toxic, egocentric society that cares for labels and poor status quos over life itself. Our social ego would only undergo change if many people choose to really, honestly question themselves and the social game we play onto the world. Very few in this country seem sincerely interested in inquiring.
If I was in her situation, I'd have done the same thing. I hope we see a cultural shift towards an understanding and acceptance of transgender people that mirrors what we've seen for gay people; but crazies like her parents will probably always exist. Poor, poor girl. If nothing else, I'm sure her note will elicit some empathy from some fence-sitters, and change a few minds.
Amir0x, thanks for respecting her wishes and sharing her story.
Amir0x, thanks for respecting her wishes and sharing her story.
Pretty much implicit in the phrasing.
I'm not saying religion shouldn't be criticized. I'm a religious person who criticizes it constantly. In fact, the splintering of Christianity is due to criticism and questioning it. Some of the best theological minds are those who have criticized religion.
I'm saying that as you said, religion is not a person. Religion did not cause this death. Misinterpretation of religion and a lack of education did. Insulting (and there is a difference between insulting and criticizing) religion does not foster the environment in which actual education about transgenderism (sp?) can be had.
Telling people that if they are religious, check your opinions at the door because this is not a safe area for their beliefs is the exact definition of bigotry.
But as you said, it's off-topic and I digress.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
I feel so sorry for her, I hope future transgender men and women can live in a kinder world
Corn is an atheist who hates all the protection religious thought receives despite terrible consequences. He's parodying religious people now.
I guess that the mods didn't think Corn was doing effective satire...
Corn is an atheist who hates all the protection religious thought receives despite terrible consequences. He's parodying religious people now.
I guess that the mods didn't think Corn was doing effective satire...
I'm going to respond because you're making ridiculous accusations now.
First, no that isn't implicit in the phrasing, don't make shit up to support your nonsense arguments. Second, I have not said any of that. Nobody said religious folk should check their opinions; and I certainly did not say ITT religion caused the death (although, while we are on the topic, it is certainly a partial cause of some of these suicides and has been linked many times in the past to such suicides). So it seems that's the problem with your commentary, it's completely fabricated and literally pulled out of thin air. Once again, read this post on my thoughts which covers much of these issues and provides my opinion on where I think religion stands in the context of Leelah's suicide and her mother:
Amir0x said:
It does get better. The attitude thinking things will never change for you in a positive direction is wrong. I've seen enough depression in my friends and family to know this. The key is the attitude and finding the right help, no matter how many tries it takes.
I know, easier said than done. But it eventually works. That's the part that you have to just trust me on, but that's all I can say to anyone reading this. I may be just a random Internet user, but I am a real human being, and this is what I truly believe, if that helps.
It's very sad that Leelah Alcorn did not get the help she needed when she needed it. For anyone else in her situation, please hold on until you're legally an adult and can move on. In the meantime I'll also work on changing the law and society. We probably won't eradicate the toxic mindsets of people like her parents entirely... ultimately people are in control of themselves and can be however they want to be... but I think we can make significant progress towards that ideal.
I know, easier said than done. But it eventually works. That's the part that you have to just trust me on, but that's all I can say to anyone reading this. I may be just a random Internet user, but I am a real human being, and this is what I truly believe, if that helps.
It's very sad that Leelah Alcorn did not get the help she needed when she needed it. For anyone else in her situation, please hold on until you're legally an adult and can move on. In the meantime I'll also work on changing the law and society. We probably won't eradicate the toxic mindsets of people like her parents entirely... ultimately people are in control of themselves and can be however they want to be... but I think we can make significant progress towards that ideal.
The sad problem here is that becoming an adult without starting her transition was exactly what Leelah loathed. She was afraid she'd look like "a boy in drag" all her life and wanted to start her transition soon. And while this isn't necessarily true (I know plenty of transwomen who are, for lack of a better term, passable even though they didn't start their transitions until legal adulthood or even much later) it does highlight one of the many unique challenges facing transpeople and how support may need to function differently.
I'm out for the night but ill finish saying this.
There can be both bad and good when discussing these terrible events but I do believe it AmirOx was in the wrong here for bringing it to our attention.
A young woman lost her beautiful life because of this, and while it can and is hard to read, some will see this and strive to better then selves or even reach out and because of that maybe saving someone else.
I wish there was something I could do for her and more then anything I wish that people would realize that God or whatever you worship should never come before the life, love and safety of another human being.
By the I sent you a PM Amir0x, night all and rest in peace our young friend, you were and are a beautiful young woman.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
Hmmm...very sad. Disturbing way to die as well. I don't know enough to comment on the trans part of the story but depression always gets to me as it does to anyone that has experienced real depression. I use the word real brecsuse I personally feel that there a lot of people these days who think they are suffering from it but really arent, though I admittedly feel bad saying this. And so many people don't "get" it. They say things like oh you have this and that, not everything is negative, look at the positives! Why not just do this or that to make your life better! Or just hang in there! I hate these and all the variations of them so much. Seems harsh but I feel it doesn't provide the support that someone suffering from depression needs and only makes things worse in some ways. It's all easier said than done
I'm kind of ranting non specifically so I'll stop. But yeah throw the transgender stuff on top of that loneliness and depression. I could see how suicide may have seemed like the only option. Feel isolated and sad and alone forever or just exit. Also Religion can be so backwards somnetimes. Or maybe it's the fault of those who follow it and not religion itself. Men. Sad stuff.
I don't know if what I said is coherent. On tablet in bed. Going through my own things which aren't remotely close to those she was going through and I feel bad enough. Can't fathom what she felt. Will I guess it's there in the writing. Also a mom should always be someone that protects you no matter what (and dad).
RIP
I'm kind of ranting non specifically so I'll stop. But yeah throw the transgender stuff on top of that loneliness and depression. I could see how suicide may have seemed like the only option. Feel isolated and sad and alone forever or just exit. Also Religion can be so backwards somnetimes. Or maybe it's the fault of those who follow it and not religion itself. Men. Sad stuff.
I don't know if what I said is coherent. On tablet in bed. Going through my own things which aren't remotely close to those she was going through and I feel bad enough. Can't fathom what she felt. Will I guess it's there in the writing. Also a mom should always be someone that protects you no matter what (and dad).
RIP
I'm a little confused by the phrasing of the bolded sentence but reading the context I think I get what you meant. I haven't got your PM yet, but when I do I'll respond
G'night Beth
I'm a little confused by the phrasing of the bolded sentence but reading the context I think I get what you meant. I haven't got your PM yet, but when I do I'll respond
Wasn't in the wrong, sorry I was on a Kindle at the time and missed the correction.
I do believe your heart was in the right place with this Amir0x.
I agree entirely, but I think there is some more hope in the fact that health care and technology are advancing all the time too. We don't know what the future holds. You know what they say, "never say never".
And I want to emphasize that I entirely understand how difficult it is to hold onto that hope when you're in someone like Leelah's situation, but the attitude to keep pushing and get the right help is so important. I'm not saying she didn't try. She probably did as best as she or so many of us could, then just gave out when it became too much. But for anyone else in her situation, please keep going. It will get better... Not on its own, no. But keep trying and keep searching for the right help, and it will get better.
Box of Bunnies
Banned
Which is shot down by the fact that, as Beth has mentioned, these kinds of things cost tens of thousands of dollars that many people really can't spare or save for.
exmachina64
Banned
and you've got the mother completely denying that her daughter was driven to suicide, misgendering, and using the wrong name numerous times
upstanding parent of the year award
Words can't convey how disgusting this is.
Ragnarsson
Member
Just hoping things will get better will change nothing. We have to work together, as a society, to change things. We have to educate people on this. We really need to acknowledge sex and gender, and it has to start in our schools. Everyone seems afraid of doing it, but it would make a huge difference.
This is purely anecdotal evidence, but as a gay man I've had to answer many questions about what it means to be gay. Do I feel something when I look at a naked woman? Are you a top or a bottom? Does that mean that you're the man/woman (note: this question has other interesting implications) in the relationship? When I answer them, they may not empathize with how I feel, but at least they respect what I am. My friends ask me these questions because I'm the closest source of information they have on this subject. And because they learned nothing on this in school. We study certain biological aspects of sex and gender, but even then we deal with them aseptically, as if sex was a purely mechanical phenomenon and gender wasn't even an issue worth talking about. This has to change.
I'm sorry for Leelah's death. And I'm sorry for her parents' ignorance.
This is purely anecdotal evidence, but as a gay man I've had to answer many questions about what it means to be gay. Do I feel something when I look at a naked woman? Are you a top or a bottom? Does that mean that you're the man/woman (note: this question has other interesting implications) in the relationship? When I answer them, they may not empathize with how I feel, but at least they respect what I am. My friends ask me these questions because I'm the closest source of information they have on this subject. And because they learned nothing on this in school. We study certain biological aspects of sex and gender, but even then we deal with them aseptically, as if sex was a purely mechanical phenomenon and gender wasn't even an issue worth talking about. This has to change.
I'm sorry for Leelah's death. And I'm sorry for her parents' ignorance.
Same, I had to glance at it in sessions. My parents weren't quite as cruel or religious, but they definitely bore a lot of animosity towards me and my gender simply because I'm "different". Lots of loneliness, more than a few ideations. I'm pretty much only alive because I'm too afraid of death.
But I look at her last words, pleading to fix society... I know I can't fix society. No one person can. But I can at least try to make a dent. I can try to be a role model, someone that nudges the conversation the right way, someone for kids like Leelah to look at and maybe get some hope from. I probably wouldn't have saved her, but if I can save one person... well, that's worth keeping myself alive too.
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
I don't know I don't think reaching adulthood just solves anything. I live on my own now and I have to account for my living expenses, therapy, and whatever unforeseen stroke of misfortune happens. I'm actually pretty scared to start hormones because I'm not guaranteed my job even at places that pretend to care about transfolk and being without a job or home is pretty high statistic for us as well which scares me a lot. I've almost been homeless twice these past 4 years since pursuing things and my line of planning is always appropriating things encase something goes wrong because it will happen. The problem isn't just with these religious people it's about how things are done regarding transcare in general. My therapist was ready to give me my prescription for hormones in October after years of trying to get to that point but I haven't taken it yet because I simply don't know if I can afford to start now. I've been saving up for a while which has been extremely difficult to do as I've only been able to line up temp jobs these past few years along with doing experimental drug trials to carry me to where I am now. (Which I can no longer do the moment I start hormones.) I can understand Leelah's line of thought since because every time I feel I've made progress the next step forward would be even harder to take. I haven't given up mostly do to support from our own members of TransGAF helping me out of a dark mindset when I saw no way or even propping me up for a bit while I had no way of getting money. I know things get better but it's really hard to see sometimes you know?
TheSpaceBetween
Member
Those parents are despicable. Fuck those cowards.
RIP
RIP
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
Yes, I do. I didn't want to sound like it's anyone's fault if things aren't going their way. I'm sorry if I came across that way.
And yeah, the problems run deep in society. That was Leelah's message. It's not just individual parents, it's a whole host of issues which you are experiencing yourself. I'm glad that you've found some support here on GAF.
All of those things you mentioned... they're definitely scary. It's not easy. Like I said I'm going to try to do my part to help change society and make getting the care you and others need easier. Those are not empty words. I know it doesn't help immediately but I'm trying...
In your case, though, it seems like you understand your finances well, which is a good foundation. If you're going to make the costs work out, then you need that. So it's good that you have that understanding. There's a phrase that goes something like "prepare for the worst but hope for the best". It's a realistic appreciation of the world... It's nice because realistically, good, unexpected things can happen too.
You are absolutely right. You didn't say "fuck off." That was my mistake for reading between the lines and paraphrasing. You said "If an individual takes personal umbrage with a religion getting insulted...they better learn to deal with it."
Much more eloquent than my paraphrased "If you are offended, go fuck yourself." Completely different meaning. My bad.
I don't want to bog this thread down any more due to my apparent lack of reading comprehension, and the truth is, I did agree with much of your initial opinion. My apologies for thinking that your above quote isn't exactly the most helpful viewpoint to have in a thread dedicated to advancing tolerance.
RastaMentality
Banned
Silky/Amir0x expressed my thoughts a lot better than I could. Horrible situation.
I've always felt like it was higher than this.
Very tragic situation all around. Society needs to do something about this. Not only education but hollywood too. Children's media has a big impact and certainly did for me.
Instead of working around a lie (as comforting as it may be), why don't you just accept you lost the genetic lottery and continue living your life without the disease defining it. I mean that's what you're already doing right? Why do you need to lie to yourself while covering it up with "faith"?
I think it's unhealthy for society when many people will just lie to themselves to feel good.
The easiest scapegoat is the parents, transgender and transsexualism aren't so simple.
Parents form a whole identity on their children, when that identity is challenged, or, in the case of transgender guys and gals, completely destroyed, it's absolutely devastating, it's basically like their kid died. The process to cope with it is a difficult one.
That's why awareness campaigns are so important, people need information, parents need this information, without it we have this unfortunate consequences.
Parents form a whole identity on their children, when that identity is challenged, or, in the case of transgender guys and gals, completely destroyed, it's absolutely devastating, it's basically like their kid died. The process to cope with it is a difficult one.
That's why awareness campaigns are so important, people need information, parents need this information, without it we have this unfortunate consequences.
Poor parents that they can't enforce a fantasy personality on a living being.
Honestly it feels worse than death to know that your identity is nonexistent for the outside world and you only exist as a wishfulfillment for ypur parents. And absolutely nothing more.
Like it's like the only reason in your life is to destroy your own soul and replace it with a fake fantasy persona.
Sorry but it's horrible and I find parents are absolutely accountable.
Murdering a living body is wrong but so should be murdering the psyche and identity of a human.
CapNBritain
Member
This is a goddamn tragedy.
The only thing I can think to do is to try and show the amount of empathy that I feel for someone I'm reading about on a forum to people who may need it that I meet in real life.
The only thing I can think to do is to try and show the amount of empathy that I feel for someone I'm reading about on a forum to people who may need it that I meet in real life.
Every parent does this. (Every human for that matter).
While I think they are comparable in their consequences, I do not think they are comparable in intent (talking about parents of transgendered children), which was the whole point of my post, and again, why I think awareness is so important.
Very, very few people even consider the chance their kid can be trans, and lets be honest, its pretty small, but so is the chance of down syndrome and people have much more awareness of it. Parents can (indeed!) be murdering the identity and psyche of their kids, but they can also be completely oblivious to it, they can even think they are doing the right thing and they do it out of love. Trans kids aren't the only victims in that regard, it's much more harmful for them because your gender identity is so important that it doesn't compare at all to a kid who wants to be an artist but his dad wants him to be a lawyer, but those are just degrees of the same problem.
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