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This is how I see monogamy for Men

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StormCell

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case closed? 50% end in divorce, of the other 50%, 10-20% end in sexless marriages, and those are results from studies not anecdotal. Now if you don't think people are gonna lie, that most are gonna be honest about being in sexless marriages I've got a bridge to sell you. The number in sexless marriages are likely vastly underestimated due to dishonesty.

And even if there's some sex, that does not mean a happy relation. So the majority are unhappy long term anyway you look at it.

which is why I provided more stats from actual studies in the next comment.
Didn't seem like you provided anything additional with the bolded statement other than a claim that it's from studies. I'm not even saying I dispute it because I find all of it believable, but I don't see anything in your comments that passes as studies or stats. Nothing tangible there.

Additionally, there are a lot of reasons why people stop having sex that have less to do with attraction or state of the marriage. Three of the four horesemen of the apacolypse include Jobs, Children, and Finances. :LOL:

But I will add that, in general, happiness appears to have a direct impact on quality of marriage and sex life. While it's true that a hard marriage and/or a poor sex life can bring down happiness, the opposite is also very much true that someone who brings happiness to the table is more likely to remain happy in marriage and are probably a much better time in bed too!
 
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Animagic

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Maybe if some of you pleased your women properly they wouldn't groan at the thought of sex with you, or be searching for other people to satisfy them.

 

Peggies

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case closed? 50% end in divorce, of the other 50%, 10-20% end in sexless marriages, and those are results from studies not anecdotal. Now if you don't think people are gonna lie, that most are gonna be honest about being in sexless marriages I've got a bridge to sell you. The number in sexless marriages are likely vastly underestimated due to dishonesty.

And even if there's some sex, that does not mean a happy relation. So the majority are unhappy long term anyway you look at it.
You're funny :messenger_grinning_squinting:
 

Toons

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"Women are so shallow, they just want an atm and sperm donor and won't even bang me after marriage anyways so forget em!"

....

"....why dont women want me? They must just be waiting for some chad to give em what I cant. Women are so shallow...."


Loop that a couple of times
 
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Didn't seem like you provided anything additional with the bolded statement other than a claim that it's from studies. I'm not even saying I dispute it because I find all of it believable, but I don't see anything in your comments that passes as studies or stats. Nothing tangible there.

Additionally, there are a lot of reasons why people stop having sex that have less to do with attraction or state of the marriage. Three of the four horesemen of the apacolypse include Jobs, Children, and Finances. :LOL:

But I will add that, in general, happiness appears to have a direct impact on quality of marriage and sex life. While it's true that a hard marriage and/or a poor sex life can bring down happiness, the opposite is also very much true that someone who brings happiness to the table is more likely to remain happy in marriage and are probably a much better time in bed too!
a quick google search brings up results that say studies find that.

And again maybe you think it normal for marriages under 50 to have little to no sex, but that is not what is sold with mainstream media view of marriage. And as said, don't for a moment take that number to be accurate, many people would be ashamed to admit they're in a sexless marriage, so that is likely significantly underestimating the real numbers.

Many men perhaps most when they seek a relation with women expect some level of intimacy, and many have been those that have said intimacy is an important aspect of a healthy relationship.
 

nush

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A long haul flight from wherever you are.
"Women are so shallow, they just want an atm and sperm donor and won't even bang me after marriage anyways so forget em!"

....

"....why dont women want me? They must just be waiting for some chad to give em what I cant. Women are so shallow...."


Loop that a couple of times

It's so simple!

 
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Sygma

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Op, your premise is omitting one simple thing : most of the women as per these five last years data actually want all the 5% and up. I would seriously point out at looking the marriage rate between races and look at the highest to the lowest. You'll see that black women nowadays are married at a banging 25% rate, compared to 80% 25 years ago.

And thats just one example. All the modern women want, in these times of great economical insecurity, the same man. And all these men will probably marry one and cheat on her anyway since they'll simply exercise their options. Being in the upper 5% means you're that much more of a man, that you got that much more options, which you will act on. The wife will compete all of her life with all the other women out there seeing her husband as valuable, which he is. Life ain't fair, and I think "monogamy" in this argument should be better referenced as faithfulness. In the upper echelon of society, its a requirement to be married for status sake and these men will look for arrangements, love will come dead last.
 
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bender

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All this "US VS THEM" generalization of entire groups of people is so tiresome...especially when it's against half the population.

Men have problems. Women have problems. They both have strengths and weaknesses, and neither is better or worse than the other. There was a 50% chance each of us could have been born the opposite sex, and would have been part of the group some of you seem to harbor negative feelings toward.

Life can be unfair no matter who we were born as. The best thing we can do is look past any differences and find things in common with others. I promise it will make life more enjoyable for you.

 
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lachesis

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Long term relationship, especially marriage in general, means dependency to each other in one way or another, physically, financially and/or emotionally.
There are people who successfully manage the art of walking the fine line of dependency & independency in harmony, but it is pretty tricky thing to achieve in my own experience. (It takes effort, understanding, love and also mutual respect & self sacrifice). It's easy to shame people of opposing views not being able to achieve the same success like one had, but I don't think you can deny the social current is basically up against nuclear family generally... - by merit, by economic sense and all.

Brave souls keep the traditions going, and believe in the system - but just as those people deny those mgtow-ish/red pill pseudo-science stats, I would also love to see stats for how strong the state of monogamous marriages in today's society, and how successful people are in their long term bonding/marriage too. Often times of what I've seen, it's glass half full and glass half empty situation, but when I see the trend, and at least the info that I'm being exposed by media - I sometimes feel rather helpless as just one individual. I can make my own choice and it's my life - but at the same time I cannot deny that I'm part of the society, one mere speck in billions of people.

I think when people first formed the often monogamous institution called marriage, it was a mean to survive in harsh old days. Having children meant someone to take care of you at old age, and someone to work at the farm/factory to add more to the table, and more off-spring meant stronger defense. It made the parenting unit more stable, and also stable unit/individual/family meant stable society. Thus culture and religion enforced the dependency between sexes - so monogamy was easier to maintain & helped society to thrive.

In that sense, a man and a woman literally "needed" each other, whether they were happy with each other - or ended up hating each other's guts.
Divorce was socially shunned upon and many cases basically "forbidden" in some cultures. Good or bad, it was like that back then.

But today, with modern technology and social progress, things are different. Each gender, equally are capable and encouraged to live an independent life. Gigantic cities and technology, and stable social structure made such possible. Now, marriage is mere a choice, not a requirement. Nobody will shun you even if you stay single forever. In popular culture, single women are also glorified & encouraged often as well.

Modern technology enables singles to get the domestic chores done quickly and easily. It's easier to really just take care of yourself, only yourself than taking care of multiple family members.
As more people look away from religion and social traditions - there's no real force or social norm that enforces the idea of monogamy. I think it's still there, embedded into our society one way or another - but I think it has become weakened quite a bit, almost till non-existent in many urban areas.
  1. Divorce is very common - one can argue % - but whatever % it may be, it's not a taboo anymore.
  2. You don't need to be married to have a child, if you really wanted one. Many unmarried couple have child(ren).
  3. Having no child is not a taboo anymore. (Growing number of couples have no kids, and enjoy dual income.. wasn't there a poll the other day regarding having a child? Quite a few people chose not to have them, as they regarded themselves too selfish, or world is already over populated etc. Pretty common response from young folks.)
  4. Child, in economic sense - used to be an asset to the family - but it's a huge financial liability and even bigger moral responsibility. (I'm talking $$$ only, not the love of your own child)
  5. You don't need to be married to get emotional support from your GF/BF or even peers/friends/social network, or even on GAF... in this hyper connected society.
  6. You don't need to have someone do the chores at home. There are things like vacuum cleaner, dish washer, and washing machine/dryer that makes it easy - heck you can even hire cleaning service.
  7. Availability of senior facilities to take care of you in old age.
  8. On top of that, you are already independent financially.
It seems to be only thing that's shameful these days - not being independent & to live in your parents basement or not being able to make life by yourself... which also carries the name of many things including "incel" or "forever alone", or "who hurt you" and you are often free to insult them - especially the person is a man/boy - as we as society tend to protect women/girls in more kinder eyes.

...and on top of that, sex is easier to get than anytime in modern history. So it's not strange that the institution of traditional monogamous relationship is dwindling down.
As an old coot, I was pretty surprised the other day that on this board, someone mentioned the process of dating/relationship in these days of Tinder.

I grew up believing
1. Date-Relationship-Marriage-Sex. (My parents - most of your grandparents/great grandparents era) - at least according to them (hmmm), and my parents did have arranged marriage, and still going on over 50 years.
2. Date-Relationship-Sex-Marriage (My age norm) - basically nobody wanted to listen to your parents ver. My marriage lasted 15 years.

But I believe someone mentioned that in online dating - it's now more or less
3. Date-Sex-Relationship-Marriage
4. Sex-Date-Relationship-Marriage?

Notice while the order of Date-Relationship-Marriage haven't changed - but the location of sex, has moved... from hardest to get, to easiest, the most casual thing.
Sure I had my share of ONS several times in my 20s especially... but every time, I ended up feeling emotionally and morally drained as if I had sinned - and I'm not religious person either - and eventually stopped doing it till I was in relationship.

Even in Asia where I grew up in till my teen years, these changes in priority are becoming rather common. Even cohabitation between BF/GF, now it's a common place practice in many cases, when it used to be such a taboo.

Like or not, the form and element of family itself is changing. Unless something so catastrophic happens and people can't survive without a partner - I don't think monogamous marriage will ever become as common place as it once used to be, if not simply die out. Like my plumber said before, water will flow to the path of least resistance. I am a believer of nuclear family though, as the system has worked for humankind for past millenia - but I think those days of traditional nuclear family being the predominant force in human reproduction are really numbered. Call me pessimistic or not - but it's just the how things are progressing as of now, more and more rapidly - and I don't think nothing can really stop the current. It's like giving a candy to a child. It's easy to give him/her a candy, but you won't be able to take it back w/o tantrum, most likely. And those tantrums, that everyone seems to be very afraid these days (as I am), figuratively speaking, to avoid being called a bigot, sexist, chauvinist, or even a racist/Nazi.

Just my opinion, based on my experience... which is so old, probably worth less than 2 cents because of inflation.. ;)

TL;DR - we are f'ed. Save us, Elon & technology! (which I do think science and technology will do so, in some form - as we as species are resilient, adopting & often clever ones).
 
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nush

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But I believe someone mentioned that in online dating - it's now more or less
3. Date-Sex-Relationship-Marriage
4. Sex-Date-Relationship-Marriage?

"Dating"? It's hookup culture on the apps a lot of the time. Although you can find solid relationships that way. Blew my boomer mind that more than once a young lady would deliver herself to my apartment have sex and then take herself away. That's it, no texting afterwards or her complaining about "Being used just for sex". She got the D discretely and went on her way.

Compared to the effort I had to put in as a teenager to get sex it's a different world. It's a resurgence of the 60's free love movement, I guess. I wasn't there for that.
 

Vicetrailia

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There are no alpha or beta people. You only can derive that when looking at one skillset, or certain skillets.
 

Ionian

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Oh the bad fucks are one you remember. Was with one girl and gagged after she took her knickers off.

I wasn't going down or anything, she just hadn't washed in probably months. The stench was something else.
 

Ionian

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There are no alpha or beta people. You only can derive that when looking at one skillset, or certain skillets.

True.

 

Vier

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There are no alpha or beta people. You only can derive that when looking at one skillset, or certain skillets.
Actually, the alpha male theory is mired in controversy/ignorance. At this point, it's more of a narrative than actual science.

Rather than calling certain males alpha, it would be better to say that they are more likely to exhibit high self-confidence, dominance, assertiveness, or leadership (or other similar behavior) than the rest, something I feel is being replaced more and more by passive, feminine male traits, which would explain a lot of responses in this thread.

Depending on the circumstances, I think an individual is capable of displaying both "alpha" and "beta" behaviors.
So, one could say it's more like,

1) True Alpha Males
2) Alpha Males with Beta Male tendencies
3) Beta Males with Alpha Male tendencies
4) True Beta males

As for the skillets..

 
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bender

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Actually, the alpha male theory is mired in controversy/ignorance. At this point, it's more of a narrative than actual science.

Rather than calling certain males alpha, it would be better to say that they are more likely to exhibit high self-confidence, dominance, assertiveness, or leadership (or other similar behavior) than the rest, something I feel is being replaced more and more by passive, feminine male traits, which would explain a lot of responses in this thread.

Depending on the circumstances, I think an individual is capable of displaying both "alpha" and "beta" behaviors.
So, one could say it's more like,

1) True Alpha Males
2) Alpha Males with Beta Male tendencies
3) Beta Males with Alpha Male tendencies
4) True Beta males

As for the skillets..


 

Vier

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Aye, I see what you're hinting at. Monogamy is natural for modern beta men for the reasons of:

1 - They lack any other options other than the person they are with. (true beta)

2- Have a low sex drive and are in a relationship with someone with an equally low level. (true beta)

3 - Are not that interested in sex overall. (true beta)

4 - Are financially incapable of cheating on a spouse due to the risk of a divorce. (true beta or beta with alpha tendencies)

5 - Societal pressures for men to be monogamous, even though it's not their natural state. (feminist ruination)

Otherwise: Men (who are more alpha type) that can "cheat" due to a sex drive equivalent to what cheating would require, has practical other options and enjoys sex - will at some point in time "cheat".
 
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bender

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Aye, I see what you're hinting at. Monogamy is natural for modern beta men for the reasons of:

1 - They lack any other options other than the person they are with. (true beta)

2- Have a low sex drive and are in a relationship with someone with an equally low level. (true beta)

3 - Are not that interested in sex overall. (true beta)

4 - Are financially incapable of cheating on a spouse due to the risk of a divorce. (true beta or beta with alpha tendencies)

5 - Societal pressures for men to be monogamous, even though it's not their natural state. (feminist ruination)

Otherwise: Men (who are more alpha type) that can "cheat" due to a sex drive equivalent to what cheating would require, has practical other options and enjoys sex - will at some point in time "cheat".

No hints, friend. Seeing beta male makes me hear JLP. I don't concern myself with the trials and tribulations of humans.
 

llien

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I wonder, then, if monogamy could be seen as a stratagem of the beta males and the females, against the alpha males? The beta males get regular sex, which they would not have under the old system. The females get help in raising their children, which a single alpha cannot supply for the whole harem - not, at any rate, as efficiently as a beta who can concentrate his whole attention on one nuclear family. The alphas get nothing, but they are a small percentage of the population and cannot very well work together anyway, since they seek a winner-takes-all situation.

Is this theory useful for understanding our behavior?

There is no doubt that "tackling" of alpha males has happened at some point in human tribes and nor is there any doubt that it was lesser males that benefited from it the most.
For some reason I find violence or threat of violence the more likely reason it happened.


Note that we are getting back to those "older" times, e.g. in Norway number of childless men has notably increased in the recent years (while number of people who want kids did not change significantly), while barely changing for women. So about 25% of men in Norway are childless now (14% of women). In 2000 it was 17% and 11% respectively.

 

Vier

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There is no doubt that "tackling" of alpha males has happened at some point in human tribes and nor is there any doubt that it was lesser males that benefited from it the most.
For some reason I find violence or threat of violence the more likely reason it happened.
Here's an interesting book talking (somewhat) about this,

 
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Ionian

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What do the other members even do?

How many producers are needed?
 
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llien

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Here's an interesting book talking (somewhat) about this,

One of the figures mentioned by J.Peterson was that our female ancestors outnumber our male ancestors 2 to 1. (I think this is estimated based on DNA variety)
This might partially have to do with males being slaughtered en mass in endless wars.
 
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One of the figures mentioned by J.Peterson was that our female ancestors outnumber our male ancestors 2 to 1. (I think this is estimated based on DNA variety)
This might partially have to do with males being slaughtered en mass in endless wars.
A few thousand years ago, the figure is rumored to have changed to 17 women for each man that reproduced.

 
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Vier

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I apologize to anyone if I seem to be going on and on. Its just I need to get my thoughts out of my head and doing it here..

If I take it further, most here and on other threads seem to imply, you have to work together to sort this out, fix this problem.

Many different cultures allow multiple wives. Why is that? Is that their version to tackle this life long problem concerning male monogamy? If I don't want another wife, will I still just crave the touch of another woman? Maybe that makes me a bad person, but 99% of the males I talk to all suffer from the same problem/ disappointments at home. So men are sneaking around until they get caught and society then labels them the bad guy.

It's silliness.
 
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Peggies

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I apologize to anyone if I seem to be going on and on. Its just I need to get my thoughts out of my head and doing it here..

If I take it further, most here and on other threads seem to imply, you have to work together to sort this out, fix this problem.

Many different cultures allow multiple wives. Why is that? Is that their version to tackle this life long problem concerning male monogamy? If I don't want another wife, will I still just crave the touch of another woman? Maybe that makes me a bad person, but 99% of the males I talk to all suffer from the same problem/ disappointments at home. So men are sneaking around until they get caught and society then labels them the bad guy.

It's silliness.
The thing is, you don't have to marry and you certainly don't have to marry someone who doesn't want to sleep with you after some time.

That's the nice thing about modern society. No one (in their right mind) judges you if you stay single and fuck around.

Being in a long term relationship doesn't mean that you don't want to have sex with other people. That's totally natural and if it's ok with your partner, you can even do that.

But at some point you kind of have to decide weither having a fellowship or keeping your freedom is more important to you.

I used to think there must be a modern way of combining shenanigans with others and a loving marriage. Well one drunk and not worthy threesome later we needed counselling and I lost my best friend. For me it's just not worth it.

Just try to find a girl that suits your needs.
She needs to keep her cooch cut off from other men like the Suez canal, whilst I'm free to indulge in other cooch.
Maybe you should join the Mormons!

south park hello GIF by The Book of Mormon (Musical)
 
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RedWhiteBlue

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I wonder, then, if monogamy could be seen as a stratagem of the beta males and the females, against the alpha males? The beta males get regular sex, which they would not have under the old system. The females get help in raising their children, which a single alpha cannot supply for the whole harem - not, at any rate, as efficiently as a beta who can concentrate his whole attention on one nuclear family. The alphas get nothing, but they are a small percentage of the population and cannot very well work together anyway, since they seek a winner-takes-all situation.

Is this theory useful for understanding our behavior?

I don't think so.

I would imagine that over time Alphas would not actually want to continue that kind of life. At some point there would be a psychological toll that would outweigh any benefit of being "alpha".

Wouldnt the best situation for an "alpha" be something like keeping the confidence and swagger of feeling like he could have any woman but actually having a stable and anxiety free relationship with a good partner?

I'd be more inclined to question if alphas and betas etc are actually a thing.
 

RedWhiteBlue

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I used to think there must be a modern way of combining shenanigans with others an a loving marriage. Well one drunk and not worthy threesome later we needed counselling and I lost my best friend. For me it's just not worth it.
Man, that sucks.

Reading the thread I think people overlook the mental aspect of different kinds of relationships and roles.

Definitely a few people I know love to talk the talk about their super progressive and open minded relationships. Right up until they are falling apart because actually these things are a lot more complicated. Insisting really really hard that they are happy is different from actually being happy.

I know folk who basically made themselves deeply unhappy simply because they wanted their partner to be happy and its like it almost didn't occur to them that this wouldn't end well. You cant make yourself deeply unhappy and also be fine at the same time. Long term its just going to have extremely negative outcomes.

I mean, I'd run through a brick wall for my wife but at the same time I wouldn't expect her to actually ask me to do it.

The OP should just give it up and accept the simple, quaint and blissfully ignorant life of a beta.
 
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