Its not retcon if its a reboot. You wouldn't call SH Shattered Memories 'retcon,' nor would you even make that notion for Batman Begins. So why here?StuBurns said:These retcons are lame and are really tainting the game for me already.
StevePharma said:So are they "Americanizing" her to some swearing Coyote Ugly girl? I hope not. British posh Lara doesn't need to work in a pub. I guess an appearance of the Mansion will be an uncertainty as well
You weren't expecting deep character development, right?StuBurns said:These retcons are lame and are really tainting the game for me already.
Batman Begins doesn't retroactively alter the continuity of Batman as far as I'm aware, and considering Nolan's two Batman movies are the only Batman material I even vaguely care about it'd be hard for me to know or care if it did.Ellis Kim said:Its not retcon if its a reboot. You wouldn't call SH Shattered Memories 'retcon,' nor would you even make that notion for Batman Begins. So why here?
Certainly not, no.UrbanRats said:You weren't expecting deep character development, right?
Sounds good. Bolded part made me laugh. Buddha? Game of the decade!
Jason's Ultimatum said:This game Buddha be good....*pause*..............get it?
I vishnu hadn't said that.Jason's Ultimatum said:This game Buddha be good....*pause*..............get it?
StuBurns said:At this point, if it's true they're completely changing the background and personality of the character, the gameplay formula, why is this called Tomb Raider? Or more specifically why is she Lara Croft? Of course the reason is because it's a brand, but I personally don't think that's a very legitimate reason creatively.
There wasn't really anything particulary special about Lara's character.StuBurns said:Batman Begins doesn't retroactively alter the continuity of Batman as far as I'm aware, and considering Nolan's two Batman movies are the only Batman material I even vaguely care about it'd be hard for me to know or care if it did.
Retcon has a specific meaning, and this looks to be an example of doing it.
At this point, if it's true they're completely changing the background and personality of the character, the gameplay formula, why is this called Tomb Raider? Or more specifically why is she Lara Croft? Of course the reason is because it's a brand, but I personally don't think that's a very legitimate reason creatively.
Certainly not, no.
Ellis Kim said:*spasm* I want to see this game so hard!
Its not retcon if its a reboot. You wouldn't call SH Shattered Memories 'retcon,' nor would you even make that notion for Batman Begins. So why here?
Well, no, of course it didn't: it created an entirely new continuity. There was nothing to retcon because it was creating continuity anew. The exact same principle applies here.StuBurns said:Batman Begins doesn't retroactively alter the continuity of Batman as far as I'm aware, and considering Nolan's two Batman movies are the only Batman material I even vaguely care about it'd be hard for me to know or care if it did.
Generic is completely the wrong word. She is a very distinctive character, even if she has little depth.UrbanRats said:There wasn't really anything particulary special about Lara's character.
She was the generic strong woman stereotype and that's it, so as long as they keep that (and that isn't going away) i don't see what's really wrong.
No, it does not. We do know about Croft's past. If you think it's good or worthy of respecting during iterations is a different issue of course.Suairyu said:Well, no, of course it didn't: it created an entirely new continuity. There was nothing to retcon because it was creating continuity anew. The exact same principle applies here.
I am really not understanding you here. How is this game, where it takes cues from previous iterations but uses them to make something new, any different from Batman Begins where it took cues from previous iterations to create something new?StuBurns said:No, it does not. We do know about Croft's past. If you think it's good or worthy of respecting during iterations is a different issue of course.
I don't care what semantics you use, 'reboot' just seems like a way of saying we're creatively bankrupt and are going to rape the corpse of whatever IP we own.Suairyu said:I am really not understanding you here. How is this game, where it takes cues from previous iterations but uses them to make something new, any different from Batman Begins where it took cues from previous iterations to create something new?
You cannot retcon a story that hasn't even been written yet. This is a reboot. Completely new story. There is nothing to retcon. There is no established backround. The story of Lara Croft has been wiped clean by the reboot like the RAM of a computer is wiped clean with a reboot. Cues are taken from the previous iteration and something new is created. Again, reboot. Nothing established. nothing to retcon. Reboot.
They did that in Underworld as well. They just didn't do a very good job with it.SolidSnakex said:They also mentioned that they're doing a layering animation system (like in Uncharted).
StuBurns said:I don't care what semantics you use, 'reboot' just seems like a way of saying we're creatively bankrupt and are going to rape the corpse of whatever IP we own.
It's Lara Croft, that character has a defined story, changing it retroactively is a retcon.
IT ISN'T BEING CHANGED RETROACTIVELYStuBurns said:I don't care what semantics you use, 'reboot' just seems like a way of saying we're creatively bankrupt and are going to rape the corpse of whatever IP we own.
It's Lara Croft, that character has a defined story, changing it retroactively is a retcon.
I disagree.Suairyu said:IT ISN'T BEING CHANGED RETROACTIVELY
Or, fuckit, let's use your Batman example:
Original Batman: used a gun to shoot criminals, execution style. Was a murdering bastard who got the job done because he was the Batman.
pre-Adam West era Batman: happy, fulfilled man fighting crime for the cheery good of all and engaged in a platonic relationship with young teenage boy with questionable homosexual undertones. Also, the Joker thought it was fun to steal kid's homework.
Adam West era Batman: goofy, camp schlocky man fighting a bumbling set of rogues whose plans more frequently were on the side of the banal than the genuinely menacing.
Frank Miller Batman: child abuser, misogynist, weird fusion between extreme left and right wing and all-round cunt.
Burton Batman: lives in a gothic world and the Joker killed his parents. What?
Nolan Batman: love-sick puppy who lets his unrequited feelings for a childhood friend get in the way of job.
All of these interpretation are radically different, more so than this new Lara Croft reboot is, yet all interpretations are very much Batman.
NONE of those interpretations retconned anything because each one was an original storyline. You cannot retcon what doesn't exist. I am not being semantic here; you are simply saying "I preferred the original character versus this new interpretation".
What of myths? Handed down orally over the years, changed over time depending on who was telling the tale and who it was being told to. Creatively bankrupt, right?
Fairy tales! Disney is an uncreative studio that took menacing stories designed to frighten kids into good behavior and turned them into puritan-friendly works of happiness. They totally retconned everything!!!
Literature is littered with archtypal characters who another (or even the original!) author has taken and reimagined into something new. This is not a retcon, nor is it creatively bankrupt. It is the most essential part of the creative process when it comes to constructing a canon of works - imitation, reconfiguration and reinterpretation. There are arguably only seven stories in all history, each one changed around slightly a million times over into an infinite array of original works.
But, at it's core, I really, really need you to realise:
This is not a retcon because there is nothing to retcon because this is an original storyline.
The developers are merely doing what the greatest artists in history have been doing for thousands of years.
That statement is not intended to make a statement on the artistic quality of the new Tomb Raider game.
I didn't say archetype, I said archetypal.StuBurns said:I disagree.
They are not using an archetype, they are using Lara Croft. A specific character who belongs to an archetype.
Then how on earth can you have a problem with the oldest of storytelling traditions, reinterpretation, being applied to a character? What motivates that position? Why are you insisting on stubbornly sticking to a definition of a word (retcon) that you are inventing and using to supplant its actual meaning? Why are you unable to accept this is a new continuity where nothing has been established? Why do you think this is creatively bankrupt?StuBurns said:And I am not saying I prefer the original character, I didn't ever write that.
Nor did I say I preferred the old Lara, it appears we're both incapable of reading each others posts. Perhaps we should stop trying. I'll start right now in fact.Suairyu said:I didn't say archetype, I said archetypal.
StuBurns said:I disagree.
They are not using an archetype, they are using Lara Croft. A specific character who belongs to an archetype.
And I am not saying I prefer the original character, I didn't ever write that.
Thanks for the smile you just put on my face with this post.NotTheGuyYouKill said:I don't think you know what retcon, reboot, or archetype means... and it's not like this hasn't been done before, weren't the PS2 games essentially rebooting the series? So it's already been done, which means... you're double-wrong.
Edit: well, double-wrong makes no sense, but neither do you.
I do know what retcon means. It means retroactive continuity. I know what an archetype is too. I also know 'reboot' is a cheap way of saying we're going to do something new while playing off the success of an existing IP because it's cheaper to market, and that is my issue with it.NotTheGuyYouKill said:I don't think you know what retcon, reboot, or archetype means... and it's not like this hasn't been done before, weren't the PS2 games essentially rebooting the series? So it's already been done, which means... you're double-wrong.
Edit: well, double-wrong makes no sense, but neither do you.
They could do that with any long standing series! Has that ever tainted your experience when playing a Mario game?StuBurns said:They could have created a new female protagonist, they decided not to, because not doing it is easier.
So because other games do it I shouldn't care is basically the argument? Okay. I don't really agree that's valid, but I also really don't care that much. It was a throw comment meant to show an aspect of the game that I find displeasing, not the focus of the thread thereafter. Forgot it.Satchwar said:They could do that with any long standing series! Has that ever tainted your experience when playing a Mario game?
It makes sense, from a business standpoint, to do what they're doing with Lara. They're trying to keep it afloat. Using her name will get the game to sell.
As long as they're expanding on old core design elements of the old game to build something better in the long run, I really don't see what the problem is.
StuBurns said:These retcons are lame and are really tainting the game for me already.
StuBurns said:I do know what retcon means. It means retroactive continuity. I know what an archetype is too. I also know 'reboot' is a cheap way of saying we're going to do something new while playing off the success of an existing IP because it's cheaper to market, and that is my issue with it.
They could have created a new female protagonist, they decided not to, because not doing it is easier.
You don't know the difference between you're and your, you have no place to tell me what retcon means, or any other English term.NotTheGuyYouKill said:Knowing what the shortened version of a couple of words does not mean you know the actual definition of the word... like I can say that ASAP means "As soon as possible" when it really means "get it done now or you're fired"
If you're problem is the fact that they are rebooting it, fine, you know to each their own, but at least describe your complaints using the right words cause otherwise you sound like you have no idea what the hell you're talking about and are just bullshitting for the sake of it.
By your logic, they should not have rebooted Batman with the Nolan films and kept letting Schumaker ejaculate in Batman's face (this is an awful metaphor).
Besides, there's nothing narratively wrong with a reboot. There has been a serious decline in TR games over the years. Restarting it fresh, with a new perspective, new ideas, this is a good thing. No reason to let a long-standing series die an ignoble death. Rage rage against the dying of the light and all that jazz.
So why did they reuse Lara for those games? Such bullshit.Suairyu said:It should be pointed out that this marks the second story reboot. Legend already provided the first. In fact, the Lara of Legend/Anniversary/Underworld had a different background and temperament to the Lara of pre-Legend.
Also Legend was the most non-Tomb Raider mainline game in the series to date, yet it's what revitalised the series. It took the impression and ideas that made the original games so appealing all those years ago but reinterpreted them into a streamlined, speed-run experience. My first ever 1000/1000 Gamerscore game.Stallion Free said:So why did they reuse Lara for those games? Such bullshit.
I'm going to get all controversial and say I preferred post-Legend Lara.Suairyu said:It should be pointed out that this marks the second story reboot. Legend already provided the first. In fact, the Lara of Legend/Anniversary/Underworld had a different background and temperament to the Lara of pre-Legend.
StuBurns said:You don't know the difference between you're and your, you have no place to tell me what retcon means, or any other English term.
So you can rant at me because you disagree with my use of retcon, but you are faultless because you're at work? Hypocrite.NotTheGuyYouKill said:Nooooooooooooo
The gun's in my mouth.
I'm at work typing in between work, give me a break.
StuBurns said:So you can rant at me because you disagree with my use of retcon, but you are faultless because you're at work? Hypocrite.
You're really grasping at straws now.StuBurns said:So you can rant at me because you disagree with my use of retcon, but you are faultless because you're at work? Hypocrite.
The character? Most certainly. Well... it's complicated. Hated Lara in Anniversary. What a dumb prig of a bitch. Underworld was a bit more warmed up. I honestly think as a pure encapsulation of Lara, Legend was perfect. Flirty, funny, highly intelligent and able to present strength without needing to resort to emotional stone walling. Basically, acted like a believable woman in an unbelievable story.Ponti said:I'm going to get all controversial and say I preferred post-Legend Lara.
/shrug
I do understand the meaning of the word.NotTheGuyYouKill said:I made a common typo, you don't even understand the meaning of the word. There is a difference, but fine, I'm a hypocrite, but you're still wrong. And that time, I am pretty sure I did use it correctly, so happy?
Absolutely, one of the reasons why Legend is one of my favourite TR's.Suairyu said:I honestly think as a pure encapsulation of Lara, Legend was perfect. Flirty, funny, highly intelligent and able to present strength without needing to resort to emotional stone walling. Basically, acted like a believable woman in an unbelievable story.