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Total Biscuit arguing for no used game sales

Used games: dev studios die like flies
No used games: dev studios die like flies

Nailed it. Why exactly do people think killing used games will fix the industry's problems?

-Publishers already blow at predicting their games' success
-Budgets have been rising exponentially due to the marketing/production value arms race

So let's be super generous and say that killing used games results in 2x the revenue (hey, I said I was being generous).

That is a one-time revenue adjustment. Does anyone really think the big publishers won't just take that extra income and use it to amp up the budget arms race even further to get a piece of Call of Duty's (now even bigger) success? Three years into the generation, we'd be back exactly where we started. Say hello to $70 games, ads and IAP bullshit out the nostrils, and more studio closures.

Seems pretty close to the "Fuck you, I've got mine." Mentality.

Seems exactly the "fuck you, I've got mine" mentality.
 
That would be freeware then.

Pirates call some games "abandonware", because they assume that noone sells it anymore and they also assume that noone cares that they offer it as download. Some even assume that noone would own the rights anymore. All of that is of course bollocks and just a cheap excuse for piracy.

If I remember correctly there is one site that actually asked and got permission for certain games to offer them as download. The rights owner got asked and allowed it in that case. Which automatically means that the software can't be "abandonware".

A few games are also offered on http://scummvm.org/downloads/ (Beneath A Steel Sky, Dreamweb, Flight of the Amazon Queen, Lure of the Temptress, Drascula: The Vampire Strikes Back, Soltys). Again the rights holder allowed that. And as you see, those are called "freeware" as well. Funnily this doesn't have to automatically mean that any site may offer them as download.
Ya, you can download Grand Theft Auto 1 straight up from Rockstar's own website, but wouldn't downloading it from TPB still be illegal and punishable by law?

Abandonware/freeware/piracy conversations are always interesting to me.
 
For digital download versions maybe? I don't remember seeing nor agreeing to any EULA after inserting physical media into my PS3, Wii or DS. Maybe it's printed on some paper, but in that case I haven't even agreed to it. I actually couldn't agree to it. But yeah, even if there were, EULAs don't mean anything.

I was actually curious about this myself, so I did some Google'ing.

Even though you don't have to accept or agree directly to any EULA when you play a console game, they are still covered by it.

Check this out: http://namcobandaigames.com/eula
BY PLAYING THE VIDEO GAME (EITHER ON YOUR HOME CONSOLE OR IF APPLICABLE ONLINE), AND/OR INSTALLING OR OTHERWISE USING THE GAME PROGRAM, YOU AGREE TO BE LEGALLY BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITH NAMCO BANDAI. NAMCO BANDAI RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CHANGE, MODIFY, ADD, OR REMOVE PORTIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT IN ITS SOLE DISCRETION WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU.
 
Ya, you can download Grand Theft Auto 1 straight up from Rockstar's own website, but wouldn't downloading it from TPB still be illegal and punishable by law?

Exactly. Just added that to my post a few seconds ago.

Funnily this doesn't have to automatically mean that any other site may offer them as download as well.


"by playing the video game ... you agree to be legally bound by the terms of this agreement"
Haha, EU courts (and I guess US courts as well) would throw them out.
 
TB makes some good points about how music / movies are different, due to various revenue streams they have.


But the biggest thing about gaming is, every monetisation idea, or potential revenue stream...is the publisher having their hands in the gamers pockets (Day one DLC, online passes, premium services that cut standard content) .

Why has no publisher forced retail stores for a kickback of their used game sales? EA and Actvision have enough clout to make that happen. Instead, they've shoved the blame, and every dirty idea onto the consumer.
 
Why has no publisher forced retail stores for a kickback of their used game sales? EA and Actvision have enough clout to make that happen.
No, they don't. After a copy of their game is sold, their rights in that copy are exhausted. They have no legal rights the used copy. They cannot force anyone to do anything with that copy, including pay them a kickback when it changes hands after it is sold the first time.
 
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Just a few examples of his assery.

Famousmortimer was the gaffer that started the campaign/thread on GAF btw. But you see what I mean about him getting defensive with the whole "us vs. them" mentality. He's in the industry, and gamers that start campaigns, or have critical opinions are not worth hearing out. They are clearly just entitled and whiny, and no one should pay attention to them. Pay attention to journalists and talking heads like TB.

Lmao

And some posters around here defend TB? ROFL
 
one thing that people seem to forget when they claim that console games will be as cheap as on steam if used games are forbidden is that there is no license fee for publishers to release games on PC and never has been. Games were and have always been cheaper on PC because of this. Games will continue to be cheaper on PCs because of this. The license fee will continue to make cheap games a very rare occasion on consoles even without used games.
 
TB makes a lot of good points, I disagree with this one but a lot of the time he's right. I just wish he wasn't so swept up in his own self importance.
 
What TotalBiscuit is right about is how awful of a method of communication Twitter is for anything even remotely serious.

If only there was somewhere you could communicate with people in a format that allows more than 140 characters... Maybe sometime in the future.
 
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Just a few examples of his assery.

Famousmortimer was the gaffer that started the campaign/thread on GAF btw. But you see what I mean about him getting defensive with the whole "us vs. them" mentality. He's in the industry, and gamers that start campaigns, or have critical opinions are not worth hearing out. They are clearly just entitled and whiny, and no one should pay attention to them. Pay attention to journalists and talking heads like TB.

Lmao



holy hell. thx for posting this. What a douche.
 

Textbook Narcissistic personality disorder. You don't even need to take a Psychology class to know that one.

Persons diagnosed with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder are characterized by unwarranted feelings of self-importance. They have a sense of entitlement and demonstrate grandiosity in their beliefs and behavior. They have a strong need for admiration, but lack feelings of empathy for others. These qualities are usually defenses against a deep feeling of inferiority and of being unloved.

"Narcissistic pathology assumes a wide range of clinical and functional forms. Clinically, these forms range from the arrogant, boastful individual who steals the spotlight to the shy, easily slighted person who avoids center stage".

That image could be used in college classrooms.
 
You don't make a video that touches on the controversial topics we've been seeing over the past week, with a contrary opinion to the majority, then refuse to debate or defend your points afterwards. Bad show, especially when it looks like you're using twitters character limit as an excuse.

More and more I'm convinced he did it for the hits and controversy.
 
I think the biggest problem is that nobody should trust Microsoft to behave the way Steam does in offering any sort of advantage to the consumer. They are too inconsistent and money driven to warrant any sort of confidence from us anymore.
True but Sony has done the exact opposite with plus in some ways being just as good if not better than steam, to just flat out giving away free games, discount, trials, etc, they are the white knight and fanboys are just going to have to accept it
 
TB has a long history of not handling criticism well. On his Youtube channel he has block/ban people for calling him out on several things he has said.
 
I've never liked TB. Subscribed for a couple months but found him annoying and up his own arse. The guy loves himself. Funny I unsubscribed from him a few weeks back and now I see this. Good riddance. Don't know why anyone would support this douche's channel.
 
More and more I'm convinced he did it for the hits and controversy.

If there is one thing I do know about TotalBiscuit it is that he is not disingenuous in this capacity.

He may be wrong, in my opinion, but I certainly believe that he believes every word he said.
 
I'm genuinely wondering why everyone's so surprised at TBs reactions. His attitude and egotistical behaviour really aren't that shocking if you've ever watched a few of his videos. I could only watch some of them for a limited time before I realised he wasn't really worth watching/listening too. I don't even say that with malice, I don't hate the guy or anything. But at the end of the day he's just another arsehole on youtube with a channel and lots of subscribers. One of very many.
 
I think the biggest problem is that nobody should trust Microsoft to behave the way Steam does in offering any sort of advantage to the consumer. They are too inconsistent and money driven to warrant any sort of confidence from us anymore.

If retailers go kaput and digital is all that's left, prices will meet demand. At that point it's just a flip of a switch to happen. 1 million sales at 59.99, sales slow down, price gets reduced, sales pick up again, make even more money. Just like those Steam figures floating around say. They would be stupid to stubbornly leave it at 59.99 and watch sales fall off a cliff forever.
 
I'm genuinely wondering why everyone's so surprised at TBs reactions. His attitude and egotistical behaviour really aren't that shocking if you've ever watched a few of his videos. I could only watch some of them for a limited time before I realised he wasn't really worth watching/listening too. I don't even say that with malice, I don't hate the guy or anything. But at the end of the day he's just another arsehole on youtube with a channel and lots of subscribers. One of very many.
As someone who has followed him since 2010, I think this is the worst controversy he has gotten himself involved in yet and his behavior has been particularly shameful even compared to some of his past transgressions. The infamous Darkness 2 community manager thing, for example.
 
As someone who has followed him since 2010, I think this is the worst controversy he has gotten himself involved in yet and his behavior has been particularly shameful even compared to some of his past transgressions. The infamous Darkness 2 community manager thing, for example.

Which made me especially chuckle with the irony present. What would have made a bigger difference, him writing them a physical letter or badgering them on twitter ? :P
 
If retailers go kaput and digital is all that's left, prices will meet demand. At that point it's just a flip of a switch to happen. 1 million sales at 59.99, sales slow down, price gets reduced, sales pick up again, make even more money. Just like those Steam figures floating around say. They would be stupid to stubbornly leave it at 59.99 and watch sales fall off a cliff forever.

It definitely is going to show who can reign in cost, while lowering pricing. The companies that are too top heavy and cant adapt, will be going away. Activision, I believe, is going to end up not having as much big publisher competition. We definitely will be seeing how prices adjust, and frankly I cant wait to see if prices actually drop(My bet is they will do it wrong), on average.
 
As someone who has followed him since 2010, I think this is the worst controversy he has gotten himself involved in yet and his behavior has been particularly shameful even compared to some of his past transgressions. The infamous Darkness 2 community manager thing, for example.

What was that about? goggling just bring up some tweets from TB about bad fov
 
As someone who has followed him since 2010, I think this is the worst controversy he has gotten himself involved in yet and his behavior has been particularly shameful even compared to some of his past transgressions. The infamous Darkness 2 community manager thing, for example.

Whats the darkness 2 community manager thing?
 
Which made me especially chuckle with the irony present. What would have made a bigger difference, him writing them a physical letter or badgering them on twitter ? :P
Yeah, the latter, absolutely. I doubt if TotalBiscuit wrote 2K Games a letter asking them to allow users the option to adjust the Field of View, absolutely nothing would have happened. Which makes his comments about how everyone is wasting their time in this particular instance so fucking absurd and hypocritical.
 
I had no idea who Total Biscuit was before that whole thing. Someone in the other thread mentioned that he was going off about what we were doing and I didn't really care as I never for a second expected everyone would be on board with it.

But then he kept going... and going... and going. And then Boyes slapped him down, I jumped in to thank Boyes, and TB ignored what Boyes just actually said and was saying I didn't do shit (I agree with him there... i made a thread on a board, it's not curing cancer).


So i just tried to listen to this with an open mind. But right off the bat he was complaining about how his channel is a PC channel and he didn't understand why console people were asking him questions. That's where I turned it off.


Does he exist in a world where people don't have gaming PCs and consoles? Because I've always had both. Always.


At that point I decided his worldview is so demented that's it probably best to going back to not knowing who he is.




Funniest part of his rant about us though is I actually agree with him on this topic most of the time... i hate 'online activitist' and petitions and hashtags used for anything other than comedy and even then it better be pretty damn funny. But this was something that had to happen quickly and I decided to give it a shot. Fuck me, right?
 
The latter, actually. I doubt if TotalBiscuit wrote 2K Games a letter asking them to allow users the option to adjust the Field of View, absolutely nothing would have happened. Which makes his comments about how everyone is wasting their time in this particular instance so fucking absuuuuuuuuuuuuurd.


Exactly which after the whole Darkness 2 FOV twitter tirade made me laugh out loud after reading his comments now :P I'm not a huge fan of twitter personally, it's not a place for discussion which is why I only really use it to follow stupid joke things to give me a quick chuckle but social media most certainly has its place.
 
Much appreciated!

Found it. I don't think it's really all that bad, but it made a huge fuss at the time.

Totalbiscuit: Darkness 2 suffers low FoV and the mouse slows down A LOT while aiming down sights. WTB, an actual PC FPS

Apparently it's possible to hex-edit the FoV. Digital Extremes, you helped make Unreal, I guess you forgot how to make a PC game since then?

bit.ly/zlwmXU < I'm pretty sure I've read bullshit from 2KElizabeth before, why do I know her name?

Oh I'm sorry 2K did I break your forums? Well you broke my game, now you know how it feels.

Elizabeth Tobey, aka @dahanese: @Totalbiscuit someone pointed in in your direction. I'm head of community at 2K Games- let me know if you have any questions and I'll help.

@dahanese there are no questions, you've made 2K's position clear, it is unwilling to provide the options required for comfortable play.

@Totalbiscuit apologies if it's not comfortable - if you do have any other questions, let me know. What I can't answer I'll ask the team.

@dahanese apologies are not good enough, blatant disregard for PC gamers will result in PC gamers disregarding 2K.

@Totalbiscuit I definitely disagree that any of us disregard PC gamers. We are PC gamers, but that conversation takes more than 140 chars.

@dahanese If that were actually true, then you would be well aware of the need and rationale behind an FoV slider

@dahanese so please forgive me if I don't take what you've said seriously, you are just doing your job but I know your history

@dahanese and your word doesn't mean much at this point

@Totalbiscuit dealing with all our games for the past 6 years, there's a lot of history!

@Totalbiscuit please know that all my answers come from the team, partiularly when they are design and tech related.

@dahanese So what you're telling me is that the team itself is incompetent, rather than just it's PR? I'll be sure to let the audience know

@Totalbiscuit not in the slightest. Digital Extremes is a very, very talented bunch who poured a ton of work and love into the game.

@dahanese and have seemingly completely forgotten what it's like to game on a monitor and not a TV half a room away

@dahanese Liz please, don't patronize me, I'm not a customer and all this conversation is doing is dimming my view of Digital Extremes.

@Totalbiscuit tweets can sound short, but I'm the last person to try and patronize.

@dahanese Well there's one of two options, either you're trying to fob me off with excuses or DE genuinely believes that FoV is ok for PC

@dahanese both of these are bad, and the excuse given is not reasonable bearing in mind someone has already jury-rigged a setup

@dahanese via the use of a hex-editor. So apparently one guy managed to get a higher FoV working for the most part, why can't DE?

@dahanese and yes I agree Twitter is terrible for this kind of conversation.

@dahanese bit.ly/zu5NM1 < Evidence, the "snakes" excuse is not valid, this workaround is clunky but operates so tell me

@Totalbiscuit the FOV is as intended in the game. And I talked to the team several days ago, so you aren't unheard.

@Totalbiscuit I'd have to investigate that with the team, but isn't that shot right after The Darkness comes back?

@dahanese And would you like to explain the team's rationale for crippling their game in this respect? What mechanical reason is there?

@Totalbiscuit that's a question I answered and you very clearly didn't like. I can answer, but I can't promise you'll like the answer!

@dahanese I read your answer, it was unacceptable due to a lack of explanation and detail

@dahanese "it made sense due to how they worked" is vapid and does not answer anything.

@Totalbiscuit vapid! You slay me, good sir. But seriously: the demon arms presented a design challenge.

Totalbiscuit: I think it's time I break out my hex-editor for a little SCIENCE

Unskippable cutscenes delay SCIENCE

Alright got it, using a juryrigged widescreen fix I've increased the FoV by 30 with zero impact on "demon arms" visuals or functionality

Putting video together now

Sheldon Carter, aka @sheldoncarter, Darkness 2 Creative Director, Digital Extremes : @Totalbiscuit Hey - we hear the FOV complaints and hopefully will have a patch really soon to give some options. Stay tuned.
 
I agree with pretty much everything in the video. I think the one major counter argument that people bring up that he didn't address is the fact that Steam, as a storefront on an open system, has competition from other storefronts like GOG, whereas PSN and XBL, as storefronts on closed systems, do not. People have brought up this counter argument fairly frequently, and while they do have a point it doesn't go as far as they think.

So the counter argument would go that since Steam has competition from GOG, Amazon, and other online storefronts, Steam will have to exert pressure on publishers to make sure they have lower prices on Steam than GOG or Amazon, leading to cheaper prices for the consumer. Microsoft and Sony, without such competition, don't have that pressure to lower prices. Thus, the argument goes, XBL and PSN won't see the same kind of price competitiveness as we see on Steam, so we need the used game market to make sure consumers still have access to cheaper games.

This argument is flawed for two reasons. First, because even without competition from other online marketplaces, competition would still exist for XBL and PSN. Second, because even if XBL and PSN were completely closed off to pressure from competition, pressure still exists within each of those closed systems to keep game prices down.

So first let's talk about competition between storefronts. XBL may not have competition from GOG, but it will still have to compete against physical sales, whether from Amazon or from Best Buy and Gamestop. Importantly, as it currently stands Gamestop's dominance in the physical marketplace lets Gamestop prevent competition from XBL. Because Gamestop is the strongest player in the used marketplace, removing the used marketplace will hurt Gamestop the most, and allow greater competition between physical and digital as publishers and platform holders won't have to listen to Gamestop's demands. So, the combination of Gamestop being knocked down a peg and digital sales increasing in legitimacy could actually increase competition. But even beyond that, even if Gamestop and Amazon stopped selling games entirely and the only place you could buy an Xbone game was on XBL, XBL would still have competition. From PSN. We've already heard how in the next generation we're going to see fewer exclusives and more multiplatforms. XBL would still have the same kind of pressure Steam has to beat GOG, because XBL would have to beat PSN.

But even beyond that, even if we ignore PSN and look at XBL alone, there will still be competitive pricing. It may not be Microsoft exerting pressure on publishers to lower prices so XBL can stay competitive, it will be publishers and developers competing with each other so they can compete within XBL. We can already see this on 100% closed systems like the iTunes store. Apple has absolutely no competition in selling iPhone games. The iTunes store is the only place you can buy a game for your iPhone. And the iTunes store doesn't even really compete with the Google Play store in the same way XBL would compete with PSN, because the price of smartphone games are much smaller than the price of a phone, meaning no one is going to buy a Samsung phone over an Apple because they can get Angry Birds for $1 cheaper. So really the only competition for iTunes is entirely internal. And yet iTunes regularly sees deep discounts off of the already low price points, because developers and publishers are competing with each other. So even beyond the competition XBL would face with PSN and physical sales, there will still be competition within XBL to keep game prices down.

Of course, due to the backlash we're not going to be able to move to a completely used game free marketplace, so the above arguments won't apply as is. That probably will have to wait a bit longer. That's unfortunate.
 
I agree with pretty much everything in the video. I think the one major counter argument that people bring up that he didn't address is the fact that Steam, as a storefront on an open system, has competition from other storefronts like GOG, whereas PSN and XBL, as storefronts on closed systems, do not. People have brought up this counter argument fairly frequently, and while they do have a point it doesn't go as far as they think.

So the counter argument would go that since Steam has competition from GOG, Amazon, and other online storefronts, Steam will have to exert pressure on publishers to make sure they have lower prices on Steam than GOG or Amazon, leading to cheaper prices for the consumer. Microsoft and Sony, without such competition, don't have that pressure to lower prices. Thus, the argument goes, XBL and PSN won't see the same kind of price competitiveness as we see on Steam, so we need the used game market to make sure consumers still have access to cheaper games.

This argument is flawed for two reasons. First, because even without competition from other online marketplaces, competition would still exist for XBL and PSN. Second, because even if XBL and PSN were completely closed off to pressure from competition, pressure still exists within each of those closed systems to keep game prices down.

So first let's talk about competition between storefronts. XBL may not have competition from GOG, but it will still have to compete against physical sales, whether from Amazon or from Best Buy and Gamestop. Importantly, as it currently stands Gamestop's dominance in the physical marketplace lets Gamestop prevent competition from XBL. Because Gamestop is the strongest player in the used marketplace, removing the used marketplace will hurt Gamestop the most, and allow greater competition between physical and digital as publishers and platform holders won't have to listen to Gamestop's demands. So, the combination of Gamestop being knocked down a peg and digital sales increasing in legitimacy could actually increase competition. But even beyond that, even if Gamestop and Amazon stopped selling games entirely and the only place you could buy an Xbone game was on XBL, XBL would still have competition. From PSN. We've already heard how in the next generation we're going to see fewer exclusives and more multiplatforms. XBL would still have the same kind of pressure Steam has to beat GOG, because XBL would have to beat PSN.

But even beyond that, even if we ignore PSN and look at XBL alone, there will still be competitive pricing. It may not be Microsoft exerting pressure on publishers to lower prices so XBL can stay competitive, it will be publishers and developers competing with each other so they can compete within XBL. We can already see this on 100% closed systems like the iTunes store. Apple has absolutely no competition in selling iPhone games. The iTunes store is the only place you can buy a game for your iPhone. And the iTunes store doesn't even really compete with the Google Play store in the same way XBL would compete with PSN, because the price of smartphone games are much smaller than the price of a phone, meaning no one is going to buy a Samsung phone over an Apple because they can get Angry Birds for $1 cheaper. So really the only competition for iTunes is entirely internal. And yet iTunes regularly sees deep discounts off of the already low price points, because developers and publishers are competing with each other. So even beyond the competition XBL would face with PSN and physical sales, there will still be competition within XBL to keep game prices down.

Of course, due to the backlash we're not going to be able to move to a completely used game free marketplace, so the above arguments won't apply as is. That probably will have to wait a bit longer. That's unfortunate.


I think the point you're missing is that we don't trust Sony or Microsoft to do it correctly.


Look at Steam. Now look at XBLA/XBLGoD, Windows 8 store, and Games for Windows Live Marketplace.


Now you're telling me that you think Microsoft will somehow make some sort of Steam-like utopia on their console? What in their history gives you even 1 reason to think that's true....?
 
I'd personally be happy enough with him never pretending to be a good sc2 "commentator". Any game he commentates makes my ears cry.

as a casual starcraft player i like his commentary, for all i know hes talking out of his ass though

his planetside 2 coverage was also good, and i like his dota 2 videos

hes a gigantic asshole but thats pretty much his gig
 
as a casual starcraft player i like his commentary, for all i know hes talking out of his ass though

his planetside 2 coverage was also good, and i like his dota 2 videos

hes a gigantic asshole but thats pretty much his gig

He's not analytic in he's casting. He's only in platinum league afaik, so he shouldnt try to be. He mainly just says what the players are actually doing at the moment.

I generally don't mind what he's saying when he casts. But rather how he says it. His way of speaking/casting is intensely annoying for me to listen to.
 
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Just a few examples of his assery.

Famousmortimer was the gaffer that started the campaign/thread on GAF btw. But you see what I mean about him getting defensive with the whole "us vs. them" mentality. He's in the industry, and gamers that start campaigns, or have critical opinions are not worth hearing out. They are clearly just entitled and whiny, and no one should pay attention to them. Pay attention to journalists and talking heads like TB.

Lmao

No. No it is not powerful and humbling. It's a fucking hashtag. I mean, I have no problem with hashtags, but even I can admit that it's just a fucking hashtag.

Twitter campaigns accomplish very little, in the end. It's fine if you want to do them, but you shouldn't be surprised or take it super personally when someone has the opinion that nothing you're doing is making all that much of a difference, because... it isn't.

They already knew there was lots of opposition to this, they already had been tweeted at a million times about it. Only thing deciding what they do next is their own decisions based on what they want and what they think most of us will put up with.

I think what TB is saying is that at this point, what is appreciated and needed is long posts explaining your thoughts and arguments against or for this issue. Not hashtags that simply confirm to these companies what they've already known.
 
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