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[Somnid]

Nintendo is already ahead though, everyone else is playing catchup. Right now either controller doesn't matter because it will never receive even a fraction of what Wii has or what Motion+ will. It's also like pretending that Nintendo isn't actively developing new things too. Motion+ will be about a year old before anything else hits and Nintendo will probably be well into development of their next big thing. It's not like they can't add cameras either.

Hell if we are talking about motion controllers it seems easy for everyone to discount the balance board. Now think about the fact that there are nearly as many balance boards as there are PS3s (I can only imagine that it might even surpass it later this year with WiiFit Plus). Not only does that also illustrate irrelevance of any Sony attempt but also that Nintendo has multiple successful ideas out there that are still handily forgotten.

Now they are moving on to vitality sensors and whatever. I have no idea where that hole leads or if it will be relevant but who knows?

 

[Zoramon089]

Nintendo is already ahead though, everyone else is playing catchup. Right now either controller doesn't matter because it will never receive even a fraction of what Wii has or what Motion+ will. It's also like pretending that Nintendo isn't actively developing new things too. Motion+ will be about a year old before anything else hits and Nintendo will probably be well into development of their next big thing. It's not like they can't add cameras either.

And chances are the next Zelda game which will almost certainly be motion+ enabled will be released probably around the release of these devices (which I estimate to be late 2009 at the earliest judging by the motion+'s debut to release roughly) which will be a very hard obstacle for Sony/Microsoft to overcome if they want to consumers to look at their product over Nintendo's (especially since the type of people interested in Zelda games partially includes the type of people who traditionally get PS3/360's, the "hardcore" gamers)

 

[spwolf]

:lol

Oh I'm sorry. I meant what do you call it, when a reviewer goes and uses something and then writes about it on his website to give his impressions.

what do you expect in the way of learning anyway? Watched all 3 conferences. Judged them based off the presentations given. Sonys was embarrassing. Microsofts was excellent and Nintendo was like listening to a rich kid brag again.

http://gizmodo.com/5274319/xbox-360-full+body-motion-control-is-here-project-natal

I expect (this gen) for sony to deliver a motion + knockoff experience to try to capture the 'casuals' and fail kind of badly at it. then some of this stuff to be shoehorned into games that don't need it like you see in lots of wii games now.

How anyone can view sony as anything but reactionary here is staggering. Microsoft also reacted to the motion arena that nintendo brought to the forefront, but they took a very bold step in another direction like nintendo did with the wiimote originally. And people (non gamers) are already talking about it. IMO the writings on the wall as far as public attention goes.

they are so reactionary that they are bringing EyePet years before Natal comes out :lol

 

[Mr.Green]

Yeah, sure you don't. That's why you are keeping it so classy calling Sony's product a "Lightdildo."

You've got me convinced. I'm sure you are totally impartial.

Oh for crying out loud I didn't realize this was serious business. Sorry for hurting your feelings by calling it a lightdildo. Could you provide me with a name I can use in the future because Sony did not.

Care to point out the posters here you claim are "in severe denial" about Natal? How about quoting some folks and calling out their points, instead of just flinging mud at everybody in this thread? I'm just not seeing who you are talking about.

First, I said "some of you guys". How the hell is that "everybody in this thread"? But okay, I'll humor you. Here's two. There are plenty more.

Yep seen the PR video a few times, and I got the same reaction we get when we see only CGI for a game (killzone), or movies of guys jumping behind the couch for cover and shooting people... Its smoke and mirrors...

Save the Natal 1:1 thing for next or next next generation. This is not gonna happen in this generation without some $1000 equipment to be even comparable with W+ or PS3mote in terms of precision and accuracy.

Personally, I thought the Natal show was pretty awesome. It was very visionary and impressive. It really has nothing to do with this topic though, because this topic is supposed to be about Sony's 1:1 technology, and the PSEye on which it is based (with a few history lessons mixed in.) I don't think Microsoft is even claiming 1:1 with Natal, although they may work something like that out eventually, perhaps with a similar wand. (There have been rumors about a Microsoft version.)

Good! I'm glad to see my post wasn't directed at you then. And for the record, I already have a PS Eye and I'm looking forward to put it to use!

 

[Kafel]

.
















So, any hands-on by journalists ?

 

[Gwanatu T]

It's really quite incredible how this discussion is going on! The facts have been amply pointed out here and it's pretty clear. Regardless of who started what development first, Nintendo brought it to market in full force first. They were the first to bundle a motion controller with the system at launch, which then made it the standard controller rather than the add-ons here. MS and Sony are creating add-ons that won't be successful no matter how you spin it. IF these are included in future systems from the get-go, then the story changes, but until then they are add-on after thought devices and were never intended to be a part of these systems' lives anyway. MS and Sony have provided significant enhancements to the technology that is already present in the market, i.e. Nintendo's Wii, and that is fantastic for the market and for consumers. Choice in products is always good, and you better believe I'll buy both of these fantastic new techs as long as they are sustainable, long-term products and not simple add-on devices like the PS2 EyeToy, rock band controllers, bongo controllers, Dreamcast microphones, SegaCD, 32x or anything silly like that. Such products are gimmicks and are only designed for the specific games they were released with and nothing more. So until MS and Sony take these devices seriously and release a system where these devices are the MAIN input devices, they will NOT take off and will NOT be successful in the same manner that they could be if they were designed for the system from the get-go.

 

[Arde5643]

It's really quite incredible how this discussion is going on! The facts have been amply pointed out here and it's pretty clear. Regardless of who started what development first, Nintendo brought it to market in full force first. They were the first to bundle a motion controller with the system at launch, which then made it the standard controller rather than the add-ons here. MS and Sony are creating add-ons that won't be successful no matter how you spin it. IF these are included in future systems from the get-go, then the story changes, but until then they are add-on after thought devices and were never intended to be a part of these systems' lives anyway. MS and Sony have provided significant enhancements to the technology that is already present in the market, i.e. Nintendo's Wii, and that is fantastic for the market and for consumers. Choice in products is always good, and you better believe I'll buy both of these fantastic new techs as long as they are sustainable, long-term products and not simple add-on devices like the PS2 EyeToy, rock band controllers, bongo controllers, Dreamcast microphones, SegaCD, 32x or anything silly like that. Such products are gimmicks and are only designed for the specific games they were released with and nothing more. So until MS and Sony take these devices seriously and release a system where these devices are the MAIN input devices, they will NOT take off and will NOT be successful in the same manner that they could be if they were designed for the system from the get-go.

LOL @ logic - we dunna need thats here!


PS: Start putting in paragraphs as well.

 

[AnimeTheme]

Your blind faith in Natal is becoming harilous, Mr.Green.

 

[ScrabbleBanshee]

I already have the eye... which I've pretty much only ever used to embarrass people playing singstar or buzz. I'm not quite sure I'd be willing to pay for a stick with a glowing testicle on the end of it, I just really do not enjoy motion control (at least so far what we've got with the wii).

They need to badly add some kind of motion smoothing in there, it would drive me fucking bananas if every little tremble resulted in that on screen shaking.

 

[Anton Sugar]

It's really quite incredible how this discussion is going on! The facts have been amply pointed out here and it's pretty clear. Regardless of who started what development first, Nintendo brought it to market in full force first. They were the first to bundle a motion controller with the system at launch, which then made it the standard controller rather than the add-ons here. MS and Sony are creating add-ons that won't be successful no matter how you spin it. IF these are included in future systems from the get-go, then the story changes, but until then they are add-on after thought devices and were never intended to be a part of these systems' lives anyway. MS and Sony have provided significant enhancements to the technology that is already present in the market, i.e. Nintendo's Wii, and that is fantastic for the market and for consumers. Choice in products is always good, and you better believe I'll buy both of these fantastic new techs as long as they are sustainable, long-term products and not simple add-on devices like the PS2 EyeToy, rock band controllers, bongo controllers, Dreamcast microphones, SegaCD, 32x or anything silly like that. Such products are gimmicks and are only designed for the specific games they were released with and nothing more. So until MS and Sony take these devices seriously and release a system where these devices are the MAIN input devices, they will NOT take off and will NOT be successful in the same manner that they could be if they were designed for the system from the get-go.

/thread

 

[dollartaco]

It's really quite incredible how this discussion is going on! The facts have been amply pointed out here and it's pretty clear. Regardless of who started what development first, Nintendo brought it to market in full force first. They were the first to bundle a motion controller with the system at launch, which then made it the standard controller rather than the add-ons here. MS and Sony are creating add-ons that won't be successful no matter how you spin it. IF these are included in future systems from the get-go, then the story changes, but until then they are add-on after thought devices and were never intended to be a part of these systems' lives anyway. MS and Sony have provided significant enhancements to the technology that is already present in the market, i.e. Nintendo's Wii, and that is fantastic for the market and for consumers. Choice in products is always good, and you better believe I'll buy both of these fantastic new techs as long as they are sustainable, long-term products and not simple add-on devices like the PS2 EyeToy, rock band controllers, bongo controllers, Dreamcast microphones, SegaCD, 32x or anything silly like that. Such products are gimmicks and are only designed for the specific games they were released with and nothing more. So until MS and Sony take these devices seriously and release a system where these devices are the MAIN input devices, they will NOT take off and will NOT be successful in the same manner that they could be if they were designed for the system from the get-go.

Nearly every part of this is true. The only thing we don't know is whether Natal will be a success. It very well may be, but I would agree that it has severe implementation drawbacks as an add-on that will limit both the size and quality of its library.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

:lol
Ok, if they had "motion sensing" like you claimed

I'm not "claiming" they had motion sensing. I'm not "claiming" anything. I'm stating a fact. They did have motion sensing with EyeToy. Only an ignorant fool would claim they didn't. There are well over 10 million EyeToy and PSEye users that have experienced it.

why did they still feel the need to make the wand? Oh yeah, because it's not the same thing.

EyeToy does provide motion sensing. It's just not 1:1. So they are introducing a system they've been working on since 2003-4 to make it 1:1.

If Nintendo had motion sensing (which they obviously do) with the Wiimote, then why did they feel the need to make the Wii Motion +?

Maybe both companies want to do more with more-precise motion sensing. Maybe that's all there is to it.

Again, the simple explanation might not be as crazy and may not get all the fanboys lathered up, but often the simple explanation is the right one.

Don't be a smartass.

I'm not being a smartass. I'm looking at years of history and evidence that others are denying. Sorry if that offends your sensibilities.

Is it really that bad to admit these new technologies were because of the success of the Wii? Everyone mimics what's popular and successful but you guys have a hard time believe Sony does...

Sony wasn't mimicking anything popular and successful with EyeToy, which is what their whole 1:1 system now is a refinement of.

The only other cameras for consoles that ever preceded EyeToy were absolute commercial flops, (see Dreameye for Dreamcast) and couldn't do much of anything. When Sony came out with EyeToy, almost everyone was predicting retail doom for the product, even people who were intrigued by the tech in theory.

You ask: "Is it really that bad to admit these new technologies were because of the success of the Wii?" and I don't even understand the point.

Look, Sony had success (over 10 million units) with EyeToy, which came out before the Wii came out. Fact. Sony also made motion-sensing casual games for that motion-sensing control scheme (including casual "sports" titles and fitness titles before WiiSports and WiiFit existed) too. Also, a fact.

Do you think Sony fans are justified going into every Wiimote thread demanding that people admit that EyeToy's sensing and casual sports and fitness games were "copied" by Wii? Do you think Sony fans should be bitching that 360 fans aren't giving Sony enough credit in Natal threads?

Of course not. That's just stupid, petty behavior. Nintendo obviously expanded on ideas and innovated on their own even though Sony already did many things that Wii later reflected. Natal is expanding and innovating on the camera concept too. Yet here you guys are, shitting up this thread and bitching about Wii not getting enough credit, while in the same breath, denying the facts that are sitting right in front of your face and right at your fingertips.

Are you or bottles or any other GAFers like you guys going into the Wii Motion Plus threads demanding that all the Nintendo fans give Sony credit for their innovation in motion-sensing and casual sports and fitness games inspiring Nintendo? Are you or bottles or any other GAFers like you guys going into Natal threads with this fake outrage?

If not...why? What's the difference, hmm?

 

[Haunted]

I disagree with everything.

Agreed.

wait what

Sorry, I can't stay away...

Yeah. It's a shame Sony never brought any of this stuff to market.

Oh wait...

Yeah...a real shame that EyeToy stuff just sat on that shelf in the R&D department at Sony.

BAM! In your face, "Wii is ruining gaming" haters!

Spoiler

edit: and with this origin debate, it's only a matter of time before the Power Pad and Sega's Activator are summoned.

 

[Arde5643]

I already have the eye... which I've pretty much only ever used to embarrass people playing singstar or buzz. I'm not quite sure I'd be willing to pay for a stick with a glowing testicle on the end of it, I just really do not enjoy motion control (at least so far what we've got with the wii).

They need to badly add some kind of motion smoothing in there, it would drive me fucking bananas if every little tremble resulted in that on screen shaking.

That's not shaking, that's 1:1 interactivity, non-believer!

Is it not true 1:1 that will result in nerdgasmic result for the hardcore masses* as the GAF creed has stated?




* Masses is actually quite niche.

 

[Kafel]

It's really quite incredible how this discussion is going on! The facts have been amply pointed out here and it's pretty clear. Regardless of who started what development first, Nintendo brought it to market in full force first. They were the first to bundle a motion controller with the system at launch, which then made it the standard controller rather than the add-ons here. MS and Sony are creating add-ons that won't be successful no matter how you spin it. IF these are included in future systems from the get-go, then the story changes, but until then they are add-on after thought devices and were never intended to be a part of these systems' lives anyway. MS and Sony have provided significant enhancements to the technology that is already present in the market, i.e. Nintendo's Wii, and that is fantastic for the market and for consumers. Choice in products is always good, and you better believe I'll buy both of these fantastic new techs as long as they are sustainable, long-term products and not simple add-on devices like the PS2 EyeToy, - - - - - - - - - rock band controllers - - - - - - - - - - , bongo controllers, Dreamcast microphones, SegaCD, 32x or anything silly like that. Such products are gimmicks and are only designed for the specific games they were released with and nothing more. So until MS and Sony take these devices seriously and release a system where these devices are the MAIN input devices, they will NOT take off and will NOT be successful in the same manner that they could be if they were designed for the system from the get-go.

no

 

[Anton Sugar]

Okay, so, playing Devil's Advocate: Sony has been researching this shit for years. Same kind of tech as the Wii, probably the same game types and audiences. Didn't they spend the first year or two of the Wii's life, badmouthing the Wii and calling it a toy?

Why would they do that if they were planning the same thing and had the exact same tech in development?

 

[Raistlin]

Sorry, I don’t worship multi-billion dollar corporations.

That really has nothing to do with your or my post.

 

[dollartaco]

He/she wasn't saying that the controllers suck, just that they have limited application because the "universe" of their platform is limited to specific applications. Because the PS3 and 360 didn't come to market with motion control at their foundation, this technology won't be fully realized.

 

[Mr.Green]

Your blind faith in Natal is becoming harilous, Mr.Green.

What the sweet fuck are you talking about? Thanks for the emotional reply, now back it up. Please define my blind faith because all I'm pointing out is that there are reports from Engadget, Gizmodo, IGN and others who've tried tech demos and said it worked.

Yes I'm impressed by the technology and yes I'm looking forward to see what comes out of it. As I am with Sony's. That's blind faith to you?

 

[Raistlin]

Okay, so, playing Devil's Advocate: Sony has been researching this shit for years. Same kind of tech as the Wii, probably the same game types and audiences. Didn't they spend the first year or two of the Wii's life, badmouthing the Wii and calling it a toy?

Why would they do that if they were planning the same thing and had the exact same tech in development?

Are you new to corporate PR?

 

[Pristine_Condition]

It's really quite incredible how this discussion is going on! The facts have been amply pointed out here and it's pretty clear. Regardless of who started what development first, Nintendo brought it to market in full force first. They were the first to bundle a motion controller with the system at launch, which then made it the standard controller rather than the add-ons here.

Nintendo should get credit for making it a standard, no doubt.

But you are wrong about Nintendo bringing motion-sensing to market "full force" first.

Sony did market the EyeToy "full force." They put a serious marketing campaign out there. Otherwise EyeToy certainly would have failed as widely predicted, (just like almost every other peripheral in the history of gaming had failed at that point,) rather than selling the more than 10 million units it ended up selling. Until the Guitar Hero guitar hit, the EyeToy was the best-selling console peripheral (besides straight-up "second controller" purchases) of the generation, and one of, if not the, best-selling console peripherals of all-time.

MS and Sony are creating add-ons that won't be successful no matter how you spin it.

Depends on what you call success. I'm sure Nintendo thinks WiiFit has been a success. They sure do love talking about it. I'm sure the whole industry thinks Guitar Hero and Rock Band have been successful. Of course Microsoft and Sony could do bundles too in the future or with next-gen.

Or is your idea of success defined by a universal acceptance of the interface? If that's the case, the fact that so many Wii games play better on Classic controllers or Wavebirds or Wiimotes in the horizontal position without motion controls kinda speaks to the limits to the Wii so far.

 

[AnimeTheme]

What the sweet fuck are you talking about? Thanks for the emotional reply, now back it up. Please define my blind faith because all I'm pointing out is that there are reports from Engadget, Gizmodo, IGN and others who've tried tech demos and said it worked.

Yes I'm impressed by the technology and yes I'm looking forward to see what comes out of it. As I am with Sony's. That's blind faith to you?

So you started the Natal 1:1 shit, and I told you that it wouldn't be possible in this generation of Natal. Then you quoted me as someone in "severe denial"...? Do you fucking understand what is 1:1?

 

[Anton Sugar]

Are you new to corporate PR?

Hahaha, no, not at all. Just with Pristine's defense of Sony, it seems a bit backward to me. How on earth can you even say that Sony deserves all the credit, when Sony tried so very hard to distance themselves from what the Wii "is"?

 

[Mr.Green]

So you started the Natal 1:1 shit, and I told you that it wouldn't be possible in this generation of Natal. Then you quoted me as someone in "severe denial"...? Do you fucking understand what is 1:1?

Yes I understand what 1:1 means, cupcake. It means that your exact movements are replicated on screen with as little lag as possible. There's always lag. For some people an LCD monitor with a response time of 8 fucking millisecond is unacceptable. Some people won't game with a wireless mouse because of the lag. So what is the maximum response time acceptable for something to be 1:1?

I'll give you this. So far Sony's tech is the most responsive and I've posted this myself before. Look it up. But if those journos were able to play the 3D breakout game and control Burnout with their body I'd say it's pretty 1:1.

 

[bottles]

Pristine: You don’t seem to understand that an EyeToy is not the same thing as a Wii remote. Sony is now launching a motion controller with all the functionality of Wii Motion Plus, using its own PSEye technology as a ‘sensor bar’, if you will. How is that not a clear copy of Nintendo’s plans? “If this was a clear reaction to Wii’s success,” you said earlier in this thread, “why did Sony wait?” The truth is that Sony didn’t wait at all. Motion control was tacked on to the Sixaxis at the last minute, and when nobody gave a shit and Nintendo announced Wii Motion Plus, Sony decided to release a similar peripheral. Maybe they had the technology lying around. Who cares if they had the technology 2, 5 or 10 years ago? Nintendo brought it to market and Sony didn’t.

How hard can it be to get this?

That really has nothing to do with your or my post.

Well, read again.

 

[AnimeTheme]

Yes I understand what 1:1 means, cupcake. It means that your exact movements are replicated on screen with as little lag as possible. There's always lag. For some people an LCD monitor with a response time of 8 fucking millisecond is unacceptable. Some people won't game with a wireless mouse because of the lag. So what is the maximum response time acceptable for something to be 1:1?

I'll give you this. So far Sony's tech is the most responsive and I've posted this myself before. Look it up. But if those journos were able to play the 3D breakout game and control Burnout with their body I'd say it's pretty 1:1.

The 1:1 thing we are talking about in this thread is NOT really about lag. It's about translating the position of a real object into the EXACT position inside the corresponding virtual 3D space. You don't need that kind of 1:1 to make a game like a car racer works. Far from that.

 

[Byakuya769]

Pristine: You don’t seem to understand that an EyeToy is not the same thing as a Wii remote. Sony is now launching a motion controller with all the functionality of Wii Motion Plus, using its own PSEye technology as a ‘sensor bar’, if you will. How is that not a clear copy of what Nintendo’s plans? “If this was a clear reaction to Wii’s success,” you said earlier in this thread, “why did Sony wait?” The truth is that Sony didn’t wait at all. Motion control was tacked on to the Sixaxis at the last minute, and when nobody gave a shit and Nintendo announced Wii Motion Plus, Sony decided to release a similar peripheral. Maybe they had the technology lying around. Who cares if they had the technology 2, 5 or 10 years ago? Nintendo brought it to market and Sony didn’t.

How hard can it be to get this?



Well, read again.

Must be pretty damn hard. I mean you don't seem like an idiot, but you continue to fail to get it

... my man.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Pristine: You don’t seem to understand that an EyeToy is not the same thing as a Wii remote.

No. I completely recognize that. Then again, I'm not making the claim that one company is "copying" the other. You are. So the fact that the technologies are so different is inconvenient for you, not for me.

Thanks for helping me make my point.

Sony is now launching a motion controller with all the functionality of Wii Motion Plus, using its own PSEye technology as a ‘sensor bar’, if you will. How is that not a clear copy of what Nintendo’s plans?

Because the two technologies are almost nothing alike? Didn't you just admit this in your first sentence?

Yes, the goals of the tech (1:1 motion sensing) are the same, but the two technologies to get there are actually quite different.

One depends on triangulation of two stationary points for accurate pointing control, one doesn't, and can track multiple moving single points through the user-variable field-of-view of the camera. One is a fully-functional video camera on a non-moving base, using visible-spectrum light, one is a very rudimentary moving "camera" using IR. One can track objects independent of the "remote" (like people, similar to Natal) while the other cannot.

The PSEye is nothing like the "sensor bar." (I use the quotes around the term "sensor bar" because the "sensor bar" doesn't sense anything. It's just two IR LEDs) The PSEye has more in common with the Wiimote, actually, but the "cameras" in the two are nothing alike either.

The most they have in common are the accelerometers in the grip, but no one can claim that the Wii did tilt-sensing first, and the technology, even if it had never been utilized in a previous Nintendo or Sony controller, is certainly so pervasive in the market right now, (ever heard of the Macbook, iPhone, Android G1 or Palm Pre?) and makes so much sense from a cost/performance perspective vs. other solutions, that it would be silly to suggest not using accelerometers at this point in time. That would be tantamount to complaining that no one should use "blister"-style switches or analog sticks because somebody else did it "first."

you said earlier in this thread, “why did Sony wait?” The truth is that Sony didn’t wait at all. Motion control was tacked on to the Sixaxis at the last minute

Are you a Sony insider with inside knowledge? Are you claiming they did this to copy Nintendo? Because you'd have to have inside knowledge to know that. Julian Eggebrecht said he was a consultant on the Sony controller and he lobbied hard for SIXAXIS. So, without insider knowledge, it's just a faith-based claim you are making, because tilt sensors in controllers existed before that. Apple had tilt sensors that hackers and geeks were starting to have fun messing with at the same time the SIXAXIS and Wii remote were being designed, too. Are you sure nobody here was inspired by Microsoft or Logitec? How about Apple? It wouldn't be the first time a console company was influenced by Apple...and I think you know what I mean.

and when nobody gave a shit and Nintendo announced Wii Motion Plus, Sony decided to release a similar peripheral. Maybe they had the technology lying around. Who cares if they had the technology 2, 5 or 10 years ago? Nintendo brought it to market and Sony didn’t.

Nintendo brought Wiimote to market. It hasn't brought Wii Motion Plus to market yet. And no one knows if it's going to be succesfull yet, so lets just calm down.

Sure, it's ahead of Microsoft and Sony's planned systems, but Nintendo is racing to market with Wii Motion + because motion control is the key to Nintendo's marketing. They have to be first. It's the main hardware thing that Nintendo has to hang it's hat on with the Wii. The consumer-perceived identity of the system hinges around it's motion-sensing fun. If it doesn't hit the market first, and Nintendo lost that identity point to Microsoft or Sony, that would be a marketing disaster for Nintendo.

 

[Kinitari]

It's really quite incredible how this discussion is going on! The facts have been amply pointed out here and it's pretty clear. Regardless of who started what development first, Nintendo brought it to market in full force first. They were the first to bundle a motion controller with the system at launch, which then made it the standard controller rather than the add-ons here. MS and Sony are creating add-ons that won't be successful no matter how you spin it. IF these are included in future systems from the get-go, then the story changes, but until then they are add-on after thought devices and were never intended to be a part of these systems' lives anyway. MS and Sony have provided significant enhancements to the technology that is already present in the market, i.e. Nintendo's Wii, and that is fantastic for the market and for consumers. Choice in products is always good, and you better believe I'll buy both of these fantastic new techs as long as they are sustainable, long-term products and not simple add-on devices like the PS2 EyeToy, rock band controllers, bongo controllers, Dreamcast microphones, SegaCD, 32x or anything silly like that. Such products are gimmicks and are only designed for the specific games they were released with and nothing more. So until MS and Sony take these devices seriously and release a system where these devices are the MAIN input devices, they will NOT take off and will NOT be successful in the same manner that they could be if they were designed for the system from the get-go.

1. People will read your stuff more often if it isn't a giant block.

2. It sounds like the majority of your complaint is with people who proclaim that the Ps3/360 versions of mo-cap is going to be more successful than the Wii - who are these people?

3. Everyone can agree - if they make good games for it, it will be a good thing.

4. Unless they put in Motion Plus with every Wii from now on, 1:1 motion is anyone's game, but the Wii does have a substantial advantage (will be out first, developers already have a 'motion' mindset for the Wii, and will probably make more 1:1 games on it than on other consoles).

5. It makes me sad this thread was supposed to be about what we thought about the tech, there are like 3 other threads arguing about all three mo-cap technologies and which ones suck and rock.

 

[AnimeTheme]

The whole copying argue depends on what "object" you are referring to. Copy the technology? NO. Copy the strategy? Yes, in a certain sense.

 

[Branduil]

5. It makes me sad this thread was supposed to be about what we thought about the tech, there are like 3 other threads arguing about all three mo-cap technologies and which ones suck and rock.

It's hard to avoid these kinds of arguments when the thread is started by a devout fanboy of one side or another.

 

[cyberheater]

... and I told you that it wouldn't be possible in this generation of Natal.

I hate to bring this up but why is 1:1 mapping not possible for Natal?

 

[Jokeropia]

:lol Yeah that is pretty much the stance that the Nintendo fanboys have taken, and they are starting to hit face first into brick walls.

I don't think you got it.

 

[AnimeTheme]

I hate to bring this up but why is 1:1 mapping not possible for Natal?

It's not like it's technically impossible. It's "commercially" impossible as a consumer product. To make it as accurate as W+ and PS3mote, you will need more than 1 set of Natal cameras from different angles, with each camera of resolution much higher than the current one, and a much faster chip to process the increased amount of signals. Even if you have such hardware setup, I don't even know if the current body tracking algorithm behind Natal is really accurate enough to compute the EXACT 3D position of every tracking point on your body without some definite markers on the body. I mean, seriously, do you really think some $200 worth camera is able to do something that currently only a professional Hollywood studio or science lab with a human model in front of a clean background with many stupid marker balls can do?

 

[Pristine_Condition]

I hate to bring this up but why is 1:1 mapping not possible for Natal?

Really, there is no reason, since Natal is still a concept rather than a product.

But in order to do 1:1 mapping with Natal in a way that's practical to gamers, you'd have to have exceptionally good cameras in there with very high resolution, great dynamic range for good low-light performance, a great framerate to eliminate lag, and a great lens. Plus, you are really adding a lot more computational cycles to the mix when you get into tracking all that data.

The problem becomes a price/performance issue.

 

[Alx]

I hate to bring this up but why is 1:1 mapping not possible for Natal?

It really depends on your definition of 1:1 mapping, and what you're expecting from it... after all fitting a 3D skeleton based on your position is 1:1 mapping, only it is not the 6 degrees of freedom of a wand/wiimote, but the... much more degrees of freedom of a human body (if there are 48 joints in the model used, there should be between 48 and 3x48 degrees of freedom, depending on the number of possible rotations of a joint).

So in theory, it does 1:1 at a much higher level. But in practice, it should also be less precise on the estimation of a given joint, so if you're trying to emulate a wiimote+ by following the wrist articulation for example, it won't be as good as the real thing. (besides, the wrist is a harder thing to follow than an elbow or a shoulder)

 

[gofreak]

I think a lot of people are using the term 1:1 as an umbrella term for a number of things in their head rather than very specifically what it really means.

When I think 1:1, at least, I think of whatever being tracked being tracked in 6 degrees precisely..so that the movement of whatever is being tracked is mapped quite precisely.

Tracking arbitrary objects with a camera alone to a very precise degree at a very granular level is difficult. We saw pretty decent 1:1 mapping in the Natal demos, most of the time..but not always (e.g. 'bam') and not of smaller things that could provide a means for the player to be very specific about what they were doing e.g in the paint demo where hands were tracked instead of, more specifically say, fingers. Though finger tracking is possible - and we saw with Milo tracing through water with a finger and even eyetoy/PSeye does this heavily in existing software for it - it's not reliably precise, certainly not down to millimetres or anything. Tracing a finger is also pretty easy compared to, say, tracking arbitrary motion of fingers in a manner that could let you reliably infer a user's intentions. You may be able to some times, but whether that's good enough depends on your application. It's probably not feasible to track arbitrary movement of arbitrary objects easily with just a camera all of the time.

With the controllers you can track arbitrary motion, but only of the controllers of course.

Motion+ has errors in its location (which is measured relative to the starting position), but they're small. However, they can accumulate over time and become significant. According to AI Live even a small error rate (e.g. 1%) in gravity accomodation can result in accumulated 'off-by' errors of up to 40cm after just a few seconds. So it's best suited to short motion lasting 1-2 seconds, with resets wherever possible (you have natural opportunities for resets with shorter motions like slashing etc.).

This PSeye wand doesn't rely on self contained sensors (though it probably has them also), so positioning should be more precise in the first place, and it ought to accomodate prolonged continuous tracking without error. I think that was pretty well demonstrated in the tech demos where you had more prolonged continuous motion that significantly varied the location of the controller without a hitch. I suppose then addiitonally the eye can try to track other things of interest like Natal, but there again, it's gonna be way more difficult to do '1:1' precisely and robustly for arbitrary objects, even moreso of course than Natal due to even less data being available (no accurate depth reading).

 

[-WindYoshi-]

This thread is fail.

 

[cyberheater]

...do you really think some $200 worth camera is able to do something that currently only a professional Hollywood studio or science lab with a human model in front of a clean background with many stupid marker balls can do?

Check this out...

The 3D sensor itself is a pretty incredible piece of equipment providing detailed 3D information about the environment similar to very expensive laser range finding systems but at a tiny fraction of the cost. Depth cameras provide you with a point cloud of the surface of objects that is fairly insensitive to various lighting conditions allowing you to do things that are simply impossible with a normal camera.


But once you have the 3D information, you then have to interpret that cloud of points as "people". This is where the researcher jaws stay dropped . The human tracking algorithms that the teams have developed are well ahead of the state of the art in computer vision in this domain. The sophistication and performance of the algorithms rival or exceed anything that I've seen in academic research , never mind a consumer product. At times, working on this project has felt like a miniature “Manhattan project” with developers and researchers from around the world to coming together to make this happen.

http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/2009/06/project-natal.html

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

The whole copying argue depends on what "object" you are referring to. Copy the technology? NO. Copy the strategy? Yes, in a certain sense.

not the same strategy since they not packing it in with every PS3(as far as i we know)

is Nintendo packing M+ in every Wii box from now on?(real question)

 

[bottles]

No. I completely recognize that. Then again, I'm not making the claim that one company is "copying" the other. You are. So the fact that the technologies are so different is inconvenient for you, not for me.

Thanks for helping me make my point.



Because the two technologies are almost nothing alike? Didn't you just admit this in your first sentence?

Yes, the goals of the tech (1:1 motion sensing) are the same, but the two technologies to get there are actually quite different.

One depends on triangulation of two stationary points for accurate pointing control, one doesn't, and can track multiple moving single points through the user-variable field-of-view of the camera. One is a fully-functional video camera on a non-moving base, using visible-spectrum light, one is a very rudimentary moving "camera" using IR. One can track objects independent of the "remote" (like people, similar to Natal) while the other cannot.

The PSEye is nothing like the "sensor bar." (I use the quotes around the term "sensor bar" because the "sensor bar" doesn't sense anything. It's just two IR LEDs) The PSEye has more in common with the Wiimote, actually, but the "cameras" in the two are nothing alike either.

The most they have in common are the accelerometers in the grip, but no one can claim that the Wii did tilt-sensing first, and the technology, even if it had never been utilized in a previous Nintendo or Sony controller, is certainly so pervasive in the market right now, (ever heard of the Macbook, iPhone, Android G1 or Palm Pre?) and makes so much sense from a cost/performance perspective vs. other solutions, that it would be silly to suggest not using accelerometers at this point in time. That would be tantamount to complaining that no one should use "blister"-style switches or analog sticks because somebody else did it "first."

I could copy my last post since you’re missing the point over and over again, but AnimeTheme is spot on.

How is Sony copying Nintendo? Because they’re releasing a product that is similar – in ability, not technology – to Nintendo’s Wii Motion Plus (although the PSEye being Sony’s sensor bar is still a good analogy) in a clear reaction to Nintendo’s success. Nobody cares who did the R&D first. Nintendo was the first to bring this kind of stuff to market (like I said before, EyeToy is not the same thing) and in that sense is being copied by Sony.

And on the topic of accelerometers: Did I mention that I played Diddy Kong Pilot (later released as Banjo-Pilot, but without the digital accelerometers in the cartridge) at Nintendo’s pre-ECTS event back in 2001?

 

[backbreaker65]

At the 2:38 mark of this video, the BBC reporter sits down with the producer and plays with the eye pet, very responsive watch as his little head slightly jers forward as he's petted. Supposedly coming to the market this holiday season.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8083046.stm

 

[AnimeTheme]

Check this out...



http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/2009/06/project-natal.html

I have read that before. "Similar" doesn't mean they are the same, as in accuracy, error range and the approach they take to achieve a similar result. The usual motion tracking has definite markers on the object being tracked, while the Natal approach is essentially "markerless", and this can easily run into some accuracy problems when you have just 1 set of cameras from 1 direction (such as when there are some blocking and overlapping of points from that direction).

 

[cyberheater]

At the 2:38 mark of this video, the BBC reporter sits down with the producer and plays with the eye pet, very responsive watch as his little head slightly jers forward as he's petted. Supposedly coming to the market this holiday season.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8083046.stm

It does look very cool.

Jeeze. The underside of my TV is going to look very cramped next year with the Wii sensor bar, and Eyetoy and a Natal. I wonder if my 40inch Bravia is going to be big enough.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

Really, there is no reason, since Natal is still a concept rather than a product.

But in order to do 1:1 mapping with Natal in a way that's practical to gamers, you'd have to have exceptionally good cameras in there with very high resolution, great dynamic range for good low-light performance, a great framerate to eliminate lag, and a great lens. Plus, you are really adding a lot more computational cycles to the mix when you get into tracking all that data.

The problem becomes a price/performance issue.

Don't they just have to release a stick controller to make it work as well? It's not as if the current vision excludes the addition of peripherals.

 

[deadatom]

:lol

Oh I'm sorry. I meant what do you call it, when a reviewer goes and uses something and then writes about it on his website to give his impressions.

More fanboy dumb bullshit words

Do you know what a preview is? It is when people take a gander at what will be offered in the future. A review is when the entire product is out and the reviewer can review it all.

Are you an idiot? Or just a troll? Or perhaps you hate new options on different platforms to play games? Do you hate games? Is your penis so small that you try to compensate by living your life through your favorite brand name?

 

[cyberheater]

I have read that before. "Similar" doesn't mean they are the same, as in accuracy, error range and the approach they take to achieve a similar result. The usual motion tracking has definite markers on the object being tracked, while the Natal approach is essentially "markerless", and this can easily run into some accuracy problems when you have just 1 set of cameras from 1 direction (such as when there are some blocking and overlapping of points from that direction).

The guys got a PHD in Human-Computer Interaction from Carnegie and has demonstrated novel uses of the Wii remote. Clearly he is excited by the technology and he seems to think the technology rivals or surpasses (in some areas) technology costing tens of thousands of dollars.

Folks that have used the demo equipment don't seem to think that accuracy is an issue even at this early technology demo stage.

I'm sure the final product will be pretty amazing and be more then accurate enough.

Anyhoo. All this is getting off topic...

 

[filopilo]

However, they can accumulate over time and become significant.

If you have to apply physics from that motion recognition input , get ready to loose a lot of what you had in mind in making the gesture.

That's why the quality of the capture is never enough to get the appropriate feedback.
Lag free and precision are the most important parameters.

 

[Wollan]

1:1 is tracking the exact position (x,y,z) with no lag and absolute preciseness. It should be able to 'replace' the original object. In the Sonymote demo for example, when he tickled the skeleton, wrote his signature, had the remote replaced with a tennis racket. It did that without a degree off and no delay to sharp motions. There was 0 difference between the remote and the virtual extension with no delay in movement. That's 1:1.

 

[filopilo]

1:1 is tracking the exact position (x,y,z) with no lag and absolute preciseness

We agree .There is only one 1:1 device here.

It's relly very important to get the closer to 1:1 has possible or else ,the software has to compensate .