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[Zen]

I don't think that's fair. True for some but I think there definitely are four groups here:

1. Stupid fanboys who only like it now because they now have it too.

2. People who suddenly like motion controls because they've come to their console of choice (i.e. they get motion controls with their favorite franchises, with high def games ,and from a console devoted to making a lot of hardcore games)

3 People who like it because they think the technology looks much better than Wii's

4 People who always have and continue to think motion controls are stupid

I won't say which group I'm in but there is definitely more to it than people simply "finally seeing the light."

I own a Wii/PS3 (use to own a 360 as well) and I can say that while I have enjoyed a few Wii games that use waggle, it was always a trade off between having a mildly interesting use of waggle and severely outdated tech along with there just not being that many games that actually use the Wiimote well and the nagging 'this doesn't feel as accurate as it should' (not that Wiimotion+ probably doesn't fix that).

With Waggle coming to PS3, but what looks like better accuracy than the Wiimote, I feel like we'll see a game or two that really really uses the functionality while also being a balls out hard/core game, probably from Sonys first party whom I really dig. Also we might see third parties taking waggle in general more seriously in the future. So I'm more excited about Sony's waggle than I have been about just the Wii waggle.

 

[Raistlin]

Does anyone have info on what chips their using for this? Getting a basic IC breakdown would allow a good handle on the costs of implementing it...

Haven't heard anything, and I'd be shocked if it was purposefully released.

However, make no mistake ... the accelerometers and gyros were in the 6axis for a reason. In part, to be shared with this technology. So the only real question is how much does the LEDs cost, and the audio Tx/Rx?

 

[Tylahedras]

I thought it looked really cool, but I don't understand how you move your avatar with those remotes. Really cool what you could do with them though.

 

[mr_nothin]

I am of the group that that motion control is really cool, was really excited for the Wii but in the end very disappointed. So I am (cautiously) optimistic about the possibilities with this tech (and on another level, with the Wii and Natal).

.

I own a Wii/PS3 (use to own a 360 as well) and I can say that while I have enjoyed a few Wii games that use waggle, it was always a trade off between having a mildly interesting use of waggle and severely outdated tech, along with there just not being that many games that actually use the Wiimote well and the nagging 'the doesn't feel as accurate as it should' (not taht Wiimotion+ probably doesn't fix that).

With Waggle coming to PS3, but waht looks like better accuracy than the Wiimote, I feel like we'll see a game or two that really really uses the functionality while also being a balls out hard/core game, probably from Sonys first party whom I really dig. Also we might see third parties taking waggle in general more seriously in the future. So I'm more excited about Sony's waggle than I have been about just the Wii waggle.

.

 

[rollingstart]

I am of the group that that motion control is really cool, was really excited for the Wii but in the end very disappointed. So I am (cautiously) optimistic about the possibilities with this tech (and on another level, with the Wii and Natal).

That is almost exactly my position too. I'm even excited for Motion Plus because I do think motion control can be cool if done right. For reference sake, I think the pointer stuff on the Wii is great, it is the actual motions that are crap. I really hope Motion Plus fixes that and all games take advantage of it.

 

[gofreak]

On a technical insight point, there's some commentary recorded from an interview with Kaz Hirai here by a guy at the FT, where he seems to suggest that ultrasonic stuff was ultimately left on the table for measuring depth. He says "we looked at ultrasonic, we looked at electromagnetic and other technologies as well" but ultimately came back to pseye+sphere. So I think they're relying on the relative size of the sphere in the camera's screenspace to measure its distance from the camera.

He also on a different note emphasises that there's no time lag with it, and that it's very focussed on accomodating gameplay.

 

[Wollan]

Interesting. Sounded like a vision based option was the most precise when measuring Z depth in relation to the sphere. Now though, It's still a mystery to me how they managed that pointer functionality so well. I mean, they mash up all the data and all that but I want to know specifics. I guess the camera can see the ball as 'textured' due to an array of led lights inside (which to our eyes looks like a single source of light) ? The mystery continues.

 

[Raist]

No ultrasounds? Well fuck, I don't know how they pulled that off.


edit: yeah, maybe relative size (I'm perplex tho, PSeye's resolution is quite low) and deducing z position from x,y + gyros.

edit 2: well, at least dogs won't go batshine insane

 

[nelsonroyale]

I actually thought the demonstration was pretty decent..at least slashing on screen enemies appealed to my sensibilities far more than spending time with a virtual 14 year old (Milo)

Natal definitely has potential, but hands free control doesnt interest me that much...

 

[Raistlin]

On a technical insight point, there's some commentary recorded from an interview with Kaz Hirai here by a guy at the FT, where he seems to suggest that ultrasonic stuff was ultimately left on the table for measuring depth. He says "we looked at ultrasonic, we looked at electromagnetic and other technologies as well" but ultimately came back to pseye+sphere. So I think they're relying on the relative size of the sphere in the camera's screenspace to measure its distance from the camera.

That's kind of lame :\


If it wasn't feasible, it wasn't feasible ... but it's sad they'll be losing so much range resolution.

 

[UntoldDreams]

Interesting. Sounded like a vision based option was the most precise when measuring Z depth in relation to the sphere. Now though, It's still a mystery to me how they managed that pointer functionality so well. I mean, they mash up all the data and all that but I want to know specifics. I guess the camera can see the ball as 'textured' due to an array of led lights inside (which to our eyes looks like a single source of light) ? The mystery continues.

Sounds like its all just gyroscopes for accurate angular measurement which can make the pointer work well. A gyroscope could have sub millimeter accuracy detection of rotation which is probably good enough resolution to do light gun pointing at a TV set 7 feet away accurately.

The Z depth though without ultrasonics is a mystery. If its just 2d visuals without two cameras or something I am not sure. Certainly the accelerometers could help detect Z movement but how does it even calibrate it in the first place?

 

[Throwaway123456789]

Interesting. Sounded like a vision based option was the most precise when measuring Z depth in relation to the sphere. Now though, It's still a mystery to me how they managed that pointer functionality so well. I mean, they mash up all the data and all that but I want to know specifics. I guess the camera can see the ball as 'textured' due to an array of led lights inside (which to our eyes looks like a single source of light) ? The mystery continues.

Seriously, how the hell do they pull it off with just a sphere? Wouldn't the PSEye be too low res to accurately measure an array of LED inside the sphere? At least at a distance?

There has to be a disgusting amount of calculations going on either way.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

You make some interesting points. Let's say you are right in all that you stated. Why in the HELL is Sony demoing a motion sensor controller with NO GAMES to show? Mind you they say this thing is supposed to launch sometime next year. Hell even KZ2 was technically unveiled nearly 4 year before it actually launched (Though it was in the form of a CGI movie).

Sony has demoed EyeToy/PSEye-based tech demos many times at E3 and other shows. More often than not, these have been strickly tech demos, with no games to show. This isn't out of the ordinary for them. They've done it multiple times over the years, at E3, GDC, Siggraph, and multiple university conferences.

Page through this thread for lots of links to writeups, interviews, and even videos of past demos.

I agree about the vitality sensor and Natal for that matter. I'm just thrashing Sony right now because the initial thread is about the PS3 motion sensor controller. When you get to be my age you pick up on BS a little quicker than the youngsters. This thing is smelling right about now.

I've been a gamer since the coin-op Pong days. I'm certainly no youngster. What BS are you talking about? What is "smelling?" What does this even mean?

When Sony was demoing this identical tech even as late as last gen, with a very similar wand concept even, (only without the multicolored LEDs to light up the ball) what did that "smell" like? How about the "Ducks, Boats, and Cups" E3 demo in 2005, or the many past demos at GDC or Siggraph?

 

[Alx]

The depth can be estimated with the visible size of the ball. The system knows what is its real size, see the size of the circle in the image, and deduce its distance by simple trigonometry.
I was suspicious because of the resolution needed for a precise depth estimation with such a small object, but it looks like it's good enough after all.

 

[Wollan]

Tried googling for recent news / interview with Marx but no luck.

An overview article here: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-a-move-in-motion-control-battle-1695828.html

 

[UntoldDreams]

Actually... The jittering of the pointers that we saw? It would make sense that could come from trying to use gyroscopes as a pointer to something far in the distance and not having enough gyroscopic resolution.

Jitter would be that the sensor on the gyroscope is bouncing between say 14 degrees and 14.1 degrees resolution and not having anything finer like 14.05 so its "bouncing" betweein 14 / 14.1 and when you extrapolate this to something 10 feet away the bouncing is jittery.

 

[Raist]

Actually... The jittering of the pointers that we saw? It would make sense that could come from trying to use gyroscopes as a pointer to something far in the distance and not having enough gyroscopic resolution.

Jitter would be that the sensor on the gyroscope is bouncing between say 14 degrees and 14.1 degrees resolution and not having anything finer like 14.05 so its "bouncing" betweein 14 / 14.1 and when you extrapolate this to something 10 feet away the bouncing is jittery.

The jittering was in the x,y plane tho, which can easily be tracked by the camera alone.
Or maybe Anton was hyper nervous

 

[Guenther]

BTW: His name is Marks and not Marx.

 

[Wollan]

I wrote that originally but a news story made me think otherwise. I have changed it back again.

 

[UntoldDreams]

The jittering was in the x,y plane tho, which can easily be tracked by the camera alone.
Or maybe Anton was hyper nervous

I'm pretty sure the camera would not be what is figuring out where a stick is pointing (rotational measurements). That's gotta be gyroscopes and accelerometers.

 

[Alx]

Actually... The jittering of the pointers that we saw? It would make sense that could come from trying to use gyroscopes as a pointer to something far in the distance and not having enough gyroscopic resolution.

Jitter would be that the sensor on the gyroscope is bouncing between say 14 degrees and 14.1 degrees resolution and not having anything finer like 14.05 so its "bouncing" betweein 14 / 14.1 and when you extrapolate this to something 10 feet away the bouncing is jittery.

There is a natural jittering of the hand, whatever the sensor. You can notice it with laser pointers used in conferences, that's the raw pointing "data" you see on screen as a red dot (and they are annoying precisely because of the jittering)

 

[UntoldDreams]

There is a natural jittering of the hand, whatever the sensor. You can notice it with laser pointers used in conferences, that's the raw pointing "data" you see on screen as a red dot (and they are annoying precisely because of the jittering)

True sir... but to measure microscopic hand jittering would be a gyroscopic sensor technology is what I would guess. I don't see how a camera could capture that.

 

[Throwaway123456789]

True sir... but to measure microscopic hand jittering would be a gyroscopic sensor technology is what I would guess. I don't see how a camera could capture that.

Yeah, they touch on the subject in the latest "Iwata asks" - a precise gyroscope even registers movement when its completely still due to temperature variance, humidity etc.

Gyroscopes can be super sensitive.

 

[ajvizzgamer101]

BAM! THERE IT IS

Yeah the best motion controller yet shown. All nintendo fanboys are excited for this, I bet. Unless they're all huge hypocrites. Aw snap.

I would like to see some games with it before I can say it's the best!

 

[AndyD]

Yeah, they touch on the subject in the latest "Iwata asks" - a precise gyroscope even registers movement when its completely still due to temperature variance, humidity etc.

Gyroscopes can be super sensitive.

This, its all about the software calibration to ignore movements smaller than a certain amount.

 

[sykoex]

I thought it looked really cool, but I don't understand how you move your avatar with those remotes. Really cool what you could do with them though.

It still has buttons and an analog stick.

 

[Wollan]

Drifting thought but Sony may want to offer those condoms (dildowang confirmed) that you see the Wii remote use?
I'm just not sure how that would look on this (not that this is how the product will look).

 

[JoJo13]

Drifting thought but Sony may want to offer those condoms (dildowang confirmed) that you see the Wii remote use?
I'm just not sure how that would look on this (not that this is how the product will look).

I doubt it. Those things are absolutely stupid.

There will be some strap that encircles your wrists, though.

 

[pakkit]

It's an interesting question regarding condom/safety regulations. It seems stupid, but Sony has to protect themselves from the idiots with lawyers. I'm interested in seeing the final design of these controls. Sony has a knack for making their consoles look sleek (let's ignore the PS1 for a second).

 

[Wollan]

Maybe the sphere itself is a rubber ball.
It could double up as a fake drumstick (on any surface).

 

[Tom Penny]

I'm pretty surprised that they are pretty far into the development of this product. It's already being offered to PS3 developers. They would not do that if they weren't very confident the product pretty much works.

 

[Oni Jazar]

Was this tech shown to any press outside of the Sony conference? Seems like MS has demoed Natal in private already.

 

[AndyD]

I'm pretty surprised that they are pretty far into the development of this product. It's already being offered to PS3 developers. They would not do that if they weren't very confident the product pretty much works.

And the middleware is also in devs hands. So they have dev hardware units as well as middleware. Which makes the spring timeline for games reasonable. I think it will start off with minigame collections just like previous Eyetoy efforts and ramp up.

 

[Wollan]

Was this tech shown to any press outside of the Sony conference? Seems like MS has demoed Natal in private already.

Developers have had them since before E3, they have the dev kits and all now (I have added some detailed info about this in the OP).

 

[Esperado]

Are motion controls good now?

I think the big change you are seeing in opinion is because of the movement towards 1:1 controls instead of purely gesture based control. With gesture based controls the developer assigns pre-defined motions to certain reactions in the game. For instance swinging the remote was equated to swinging a racket just like pushing the x button was equated to swinging a racket. Of course there are a lot more variations (you might say buttons to make the explanation easier) you can do with different gestures creating a different reaction, but even though swinging slightly differently might hook or curve a tennis ball, it's still equating a simple gesture to a reaction or output.

I think one of the things that happened with the Wii was that people instantly thought of the 1:1 motion possibilities, but were instead greeted by gesture based controls. That's not to say gesture based is bad though. It would suck playing a tennis game and always hitting it out of bounds or a baseball game where you could hit nothing but foul balls. Hell, even a baseball game where the ball is actually coming at you a hundred miles per hour would suck. Even so, I think 1:1 with some sort of assistance (to keep the ball in bounds, etc.) should be a good compromise.

 

[Raistlin]

I doubt it. Those things are absolutely stupid.

There will be some strap that encircles your wrists, though.

I'd actually prefer a strap that goes around the top of the hand, as long as it's breathable.

 

[Opiate]

I'm in the same boat as many in here: I have never criticized the concept of motion control. I'm a PC Gamer first and foremost, and the mouse is a motion control device.

It's just that I don't like many games Nintendo produces, and without enjoying the first party offerings, the Wii's lineup is quite sparse. I'd be happy to play with motion controls if someone makes software I happen to personally enjoy.

 

[freethought]

Was this tech shown to any press outside of the Sony conference? Seems like MS has demoed Natal in private already.

Haven't they been demoing this tech in various stages for years? I can't say I followed it much but I'm sure this thread was full of links to 4 year old news stories. I'm sure Pristine_Condition can tell you all about it.

 

[Zoramon089]

I'm in the same boat as many in here: I have never criticized the concept of motion control. I'm a PC Gamer first and foremost, and the mouse is a motion control device.

It's just that I don't like many games Nintendo produces, and without enjoying the first party offerings, the Wii's lineup is quite sparse. I'd be happy to play with motion controls if someone makes software I happen to personally enjoy.

I don't get why people keep saying this and then whenever noteworthy 3rd party titles are listed, they discredit them

 

[rollingstart]

Early today someone pointed out that this controller probably can't be used on the side like the Wii remote can. I didn't think about that before. That's definetly a plus if they ever planned to do a racing game with controls like Excitetrucks.

 

[ZAK]

I don't get why people keep saying this and then whenever noteworthy 3rd party titles are listed, they discredit them

It could be a stupid bias. Or it could be that they happen not to like those games.

Or they just don't like video games.

 

[agm2502]

So can we expect MLB: The Show to debut with motion control batting and pitching? If it's getting released in the spring then it would make sense to me, Then hopefully MLB will get a worldwide release.

 

[Ekgar]

"TRUE 1:1"
Reminds me of the Console Prefix insecurity displayed by Nintendo in the mid-90s.
Hmm, what is a stronger word than "super"? How about "ultra"? Ultra 64! Yeah.
If Sony is TRUE 1:1, Wii Motion Plus should be called "accurate, actual, appropriate, authentic, authoritative, bona fide, correct, dependable, direct, exact, factual, fitting, genuine, honest, indubitable, kosher*, lawful, legal, legitimate, natural, normal, on target, perfect, precise, proper, pure, regular, right, rightful, sincere, straight, sure-enough, trustworthy, truthful, typical, undeniable, undesigning, undoubted, unerring, unfaked, unfeigned, unquestionable, veracious, veridical, veritable, very, or wash" 1:1

 

[JoJo13]

So can we expect MLB: The Show to debut with motion control batting and pitching? If it's getting released in the spring then it would make sense to me, Then hopefully MLB will get a worldwide release.

i hope so

 

[Throwaway123456789]

But wait, if the MotionPlus is 1:1.

THAT MEANS THE SONYWAGG IS 2:1!!

I solved everything, didn't I?!

 

[ZAK]

But wait, if the MotionPlus is 1:1.

THAT MEANS THE SONYWAGG IS 2:1!!

I solved everything, didn't I?!

Follows your actions twice as accurately as you perform them! Augmented reality indeed! :^O

 

[patsu]

"TRUE 1:1"
Reminds me of the Console Prefix insecurity displayed by Nintendo in the mid-90s.
Hmm, what is a stronger word than "super"? How about "ultra"? Ultra 64! Yeah.
If Sony is TRUE 1:1, Wii Motion Plus should be called "accurate, actual, appropriate, authentic, authoritative, bona fide, correct, dependable, direct, exact, factual, fitting, genuine, honest, indubitable, kosher*, lawful, legal, legitimate, natural, normal, on target, perfect, precise, proper, pure, regular, right, rightful, sincere, straight, sure-enough, trustworthy, truthful, typical, undeniable, undesigning, undoubted, unerring, unfaked, unfeigned, unquestionable, veracious, veridical, veritable, very, or wash" 1:1

*scratch head*

The phrase "True 1:1 mapping/response" is used by Nintendo as well: http://www.nintendo.com/whatsnew/detail/eMMuRj_N6vntHPDycCJAKWhEO9zBvyPH

 

[Dibbz]

Someone has probably already mentioned it but it just hit me today what Sony could be planning on doing.

I figure they will incorporate this new tech of theirs into a traditional controller eg Dualshock 3. The reason I think this is Sony created a patent for a breakable controller right?

I'd imagine there would be essentially a Sony Wand in either part of the controller essentially giving the player 2 wands that can be combined into a traditional controller or 2 seperate devices ala Wii mote and Nunchuk.

Fake Edit:- Well I just found this patent pic which is old but new to me.

Whatever they're doing I'm really interested in it. If you could essentially have a traditional controller which could transform into another device it would be the best of both worlds.

They just need to hide those damn massive balls attached to the controllers with some plastic or something.

 

[Raist]

Early today someone pointed out that this controller probably can't be used on the side like the Wii remote can. I didn't think about that before. That's definetly a plus if they ever planned to do a racing game with controls like Excitetrucks.

Well... the DS3?

 

[Opiate]

I don't get why people keep saying this and then whenever noteworthy 3rd party titles are listed, they discredit them

Speaking only for me personally, I don't discredit them. I'm just not interested in the things that are "noteworthy." I have very particular tastes which are not being met by the Wii Lineup. There are a few exceptions, but not nearly enough to justify a purchase.