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[Nzyme32]

generally any paypal user should be wary of charge backs occurring over a certain period following any transaction. by rule of thumb from everything I've heard, I don't bother with withdrawing and using funds recieved till a good few months after, IF I am forced to use paypal in the first place.

nothing and no one is safe and it works both ways. theres always a few stories of locked steam or psn accounts due to paypal just as banks will chase up people who have funds denied

 

[HappyBivouac]

This is why I love when someone streaming video games from their parent's basement does the whole "Streaming full time is my job!" bit. No, you don't have a job, you play video games all day.

Streamers provide something of value that people are willing to pay (donate/subscribe) to support. It is a job.

 

[CornBurrito]

Should be doing chores bro.

How do we know he isn't?

 

[killer rin]

People only get credit card statements once a month. The least amount of time I would consider reasonable would be 45 days. Assuming the fraudulent transaction took place the day after the last statement, this would give someone 2 weeks to get it taken care of. 60 days is definitely not unreasonable.

45 to account for times it takes to get your credit card statement. After that you can only apply for a charge back if you have solid proof it was fraud (like a report from your credit card company which validates it)

 

[Velcro Fly]

I feel really bad for having read the middle 4 or so pages of this thread. Full of people whining about a 14 year old kid streaming on twitch instead of being mad that a 14 year old kid is being victimized while doing something he enjoys. Like so fucking what if he has a paypal link on his page? He'd probably stream anyway even if he never got donations because he enjoys it. There are tons of streamers that stream because they enjoy playing games and having people watch. And I have no idea where some of you live but at 14 I couldn't get a job. I had to be 16 and have my school sign something allowing me to work.

Kid will have to work his whole life eventually anyway. Letting him be a kid and have fun with something like streaming a video game is harmless. And if he gets a few donations here and there to buy a game to stream or buy equipment to make the stream better who cares? Many streamers explicitly state donations will be used for equipment and stuff to make the stream better. It's not like they are taking the money and buying drugs or paying rent. Some are shameless but most are not.

 

[Qassim]

The dangers of paypal are fairly well known - I wouldn't rely on them for processing of any continuous stream of money for reasons such as this.

I use paypal for one-off, individual, relatively small transactions.

 

[Midnight Phoenix]

What if that Paypal account was stolen. I have heard about some one posted stolen card in chat and every one start using it for subs. At the end it was near 5k$ donations from that card.

I hope this whole subscription/donation thing ends soon on twitch.

For example Sodapoppin made alone with his 24h stream 13k. I repeat 13000€ in just 1 day.

People getting paid for playing vidyagaems... stahp.

Spoiler

Yeah i'm jelly.

Time to quit from game developing and start streaming I guess. IMO this is absurd situation, when people earning that much money for just playing game and talking what they see or what they feel, when other people, with more crucial professions, can't earn that amount in a whole year. Not to mention you need to obtain and maintain skills and knowledge.

 

[JJMorris]

That really sucks and everything, and this shouldn't happen to people. But it is a huge privileged luxury to get paid to play video games. I can't really sympathize for people who are paid to hobby.

 

[Pinktaco]

Is there no limit on how many months the donor can go back? It seems ridiculous that you can withdraw your donation such a long time after. IMO it should be 14 days and after that nothing. If you've donated there's a reason to it and because you have an unforseen bill 3 months down the road shouldn't mean that you can just reclaim your money for your donations.

And yes I realize this kid is a retard, but Im thinking in general terms. Other than that I see no other solution but to wait long enough (a year maybe?) before you spend the money.

 

[Pinktaco]

That really sucks and everything, and this shouldn't happen to people. But it is a huge privileged luxury to get paid to play video games. I can't really sympathize for people who are paid to hobby.

Ugh.. There is no reason to be screwed over no matter what you've done. Especially if you're just a 14-year-old who doesn't know better.

 

[Death Metalist]

This is why I stream for fun and DON'T ask for donations.

This for me as well. There will always be problems, big and small whenever money is involved.

 

[Klyka]

This for me as well. There will always be problems, big and small whenever money is involved.

"Man, random people on the Internet are giving me money! I am sure nothing bad will ever come of this!"

Seriously.

 

[dream]

I dunno...I feel like learning how to fleece suckers for money at 14 gives this kid a head start on life.

 

[Jay Sosa]

Ugh.. There is no reason to be screwed over no matter what you've done. Especially if you're just a 14-year-old who doesn't know better.

screwed over? It's not like they were entitled to that money.

 

[KillerIsJed]

I can't believe this thread has turned into "People don't deserve to be paid to be an entertainer" which really isn't the topic at hand. And it also has turned into "14 year olds should get REAL jobs".

I love this old timey mentality of "physical labor = job, everything else isn't."

Spoilers: I sit at a desk all day and get paid for moving my wrist a few inches. It is a real job.

Streaming is currently my "Jobby" or hobby job, or a hobby that makes me money. I hope to one day turn it into a real job, which I believe is the "American Dream".

/Matt Foley Impression

 

[SneakyStephan]

I can't believe this thread has turned into "People don't deserve to be paid to be an entertainer" which really isn't the topic at hand. And it also has turned into "14 year olds should get REAL jobs".

I love this old timey mentality of "physical labor = job, everything else isn't."

Spoilers: I sit at a desk all day and get paid for moving my wrist a few inches. It is a real job.

Streaming is currently my "Jobby" or hobby job, or a hobby that makes me money. I hope to one day turn it into a real job, which I believe is the "American Dream".

/Matt Foley Impression

Since you're willing to derail your own thread further:

I'm sure some street beggars are content making their money with their hand held out as well and consider it as good a source of income as any.
At least they don't bitch n moan that their livelyhood is endangered when someone drops a button into their hat.

When you live off of charity you need to make certain concessions like giving up financial security, a pension , vacation money, worker's insurance, sick days, maternity leave and a sense of self worth.

 

[KillerIsJed]

Since you're willing to derail your own thread further:

I'm sure some street beggars are content making their money with their hand held out as well and consider it as good a source of income as any.
At least they don't bitch n moan that their livelyhood is endangered when someone drops a button into their hat.

When you live off of charity you need to make certain concessions like giving up financial security, a pension , vacation money, worker's insurance, sick days, maternity leave and a sense of self worth.

So where is the bitching and moaning here? I drew attention to an issue at hand for my peers that I felt for. Get off your high horse. Since when is entertainment a form of charity?

 

[Klyka]

I can't believe this thread has turned into "People don't deserve to be paid to be an entertainer" which really isn't the topic at hand. And it also has turned into "14 year olds should get REAL jobs".

I love this old timey mentality of "physical labor = job, everything else isn't."

Spoilers: I sit at a desk all day and get paid for moving my wrist a few inches. It is a real job.

Streaming is currently my "Jobby" or hobby job, or a hobby that makes me money. I hope to one day turn it into a real job, which I believe is the "American Dream".

/Matt Foley Impression

Do marketing, be a partner, use ad revenue and get subscribers.

Don't do "donations".

"Oh guys this will TOTALLY make this stream better, believe me I will TOTALLY use the money you give me to make the stream better i swear!"

<current goal: MAKE RENT 268$/700$>
<monthly goal: BUY PS4 WITH ALL GAMES: Yourfuckingmoney/howevermuchiwant>

It's ridiculous and you know it.

 

[Hedge]

I honestly don't get the entire fuss. I mean they were donations, and if it's possible to see a donator as unverified as the 22-year old streamer said, I'd be more cautious before spending anything of it. Eh, it sucks, but in the end it's still a donation - that they decided to take back.

Now resorting to calling people sociopaths because they don't feel bad for the kid, that's something I find offensive.

 

[G-Fex]

Do marketing, be a partner, use ad revenue and get subscribers.

Don't do "donations".

"Oh guys this will TOTALLY make this stream better, believe me I will TOTALLY use the money you give me to make the stream better i swear!"

<current goal: MAKE RENT 268$/700$>
<monthly goal: BUY PS4 WITH ALL GAMES: Yourfuckingmoney/howevermuchiwant>

It's ridiculous and you know it.

I've seen quite a bit of this and it's ridiculous.

Reminds me, I was watching Floe last night, I wonder what difference donations will do to 'improve' the stream for everyone?

He's already got a perfect set up and everything, what else is needed? It's not like Floe needs a new capture card.

In fact he's got sponsorships and shit since he's like a FGC guy

 

[M.W.]

The worst offender: rwhitegoose, trying to raise 500,000 for a new house. He's at 7,000 or something. Lol

 

[G-Fex]

The worst offender: rwhitegoose, trying to raise 500,000 for a new house. He's at 7,000 or something. Lol

I heard about the insane shit whitegoose says but this ? Really?!? Holy fuck.

 

[Korezo]

The worst offender: rwhitegoose, trying to raise 500,000 for a new house. He's at 7,000 or something. Lol

Someone should donate 500k and do the paypal dispute thing. 98% of these streamers are beggars.

 

[Alienous]

Man, that's tough.

It seems like steamers should wait the 2 months before spending any donations. Otherwise things can clearly get difficult.

 

[RiccochetJ]

So where is the bitching and moaning here? I drew attention to an issue at hand for my peers that I felt for. Get off your high horse. Since when is entertainment a form of charity?

When the money you make is on the whim of the viewer? But I actually don't look at you guys and gals as a charitable entity. More like a public broadcasting thing.

I donate to $5 LethalFrag monthly fwiw.

 

[Weevilone]

The dangers of paypal are fairly well known - I wouldn't rely on them for processing of any continuous stream of money for reasons such as this.

I use paypal for one-off, individual, relatively small transactions.

With credit card fraud it doesn't matter if it's Paypal or anything else. All avoiding PP or credit cards will do is eliminate your potential funds.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Too many people attach a false sense of meaning to what a "job" should be. A job doesn't necessarily have to be "something you hate" and/or "hard physical labor".

This. Though I don't think it was really his "job" in this case, but I also think that expecting a kid to get a job is asinine as hell.

You know there's actual list of jobs that are recognized by the government of a country, right?

Do tell.

 

[Miletius]

So where is the bitching and moaning here? I drew attention to an issue at hand for my peers that I felt for. Get off your high horse. Since when is entertainment a form of charity?

That's kind of the direction all twitch donation threads end up going. I think that as an entertainer you need to also be ok with people critiquing your work, which also includes some people pointing out that it's not worth it to pay you money.

Since a lot of the focus seems to be on if the 14 year old should be making money through streaming I'll just chime in and say I do think that he should be able to do so. However, I also think that his parents should be more involved in the situation and that he should not have been allowed to set up a Paypal account on his own, accept donations, and then get into trouble when he spent the money for donations before a chrageback.

If his parents were involved, then they assumed the risk in leiu of the child and they should ultimately be ok with paying that money back. That's the way these things work. In the more general case of a general streamer I think that, like any small business, you have to be ready for these kind of things, which includes setting aside money for charge-back cases and NOT taking fortuitous rare events at face value. I.E if somebody just waltzes in and hands you 1000 times the average donation (5g versus 5 dollars) then you better believe that is suspicious.

None of this precludes the notion that what the alleged 15 year old charge-backee did wasn't scummy. Because it was, and hopefully this is more of the "I'm young and made a really dumb decision," rather than something more sinister. He should be punished by his parents and if possible be made to make amends (perhaps not monetarily) with the streamers he wronged.

 

[Pennywise83]

not in Socal.

Also reverse this. Instead of the money coming via streaming and from ebay.

O is this suddenly okay now? Streamers get random hate for no reasons from users on gaf. Its a growing market with millions of dollars being put in to this field. Don't believe me? Just look at TSM, EG, C9 Streams. They get paid on salary to stream + sponsors + donation + CPM.

Its has turned into advertisement. And yet you got idiots that are saying "get a job". There are youtubers that make 6 figures, and streaming is essentially live youtube videos. I don't see why people are bitching for the wrong reasons.

Well,

In my opinion, a 14 year old kid should not work; neither by helping neighbours nor by streaming; that is, he or she should not get money by doing something. He or she should play and study; there will be the time when he or she can be financially self-sustained. Not at 14.

The problem with streaming is also that kids are not much controlled. They get money that can spend wherever they want, which is less easy if they money from a neighbour by cutting the grass.

 

[Goldenroad]

This minor should not have been using someone elses credit card to "donate" money to people playing video games on the internet.

The streamers should not have been trying to solicit money from a minor (or from anyone). I think everyone's in the wrong, and we should just move on.

 

[Pennywise83]

I can't believe this thread has turned into "People don't deserve to be paid to be an entertainer" which really isn't the topic at hand. And it also has turned into "14 year olds should get REAL jobs".

I love this old timey mentality of "physical labor = job, everything else isn't."

Spoilers: I sit at a desk all day and get paid for moving my wrist a few inches. It is a real job.

Streaming is currently my "Jobby" or hobby job, or a hobby that makes me money. I hope to one day turn it into a real job, which I believe is the "American Dream".

/Matt Foley Impression

In my opinion, it's more: job=something you're doing with effort and knowledge and preparation; not only physical effort but also cultural, and mental effort.

There's a thin line between what is a job and what is not (always in my opinion). The fact that people are entertained by streamers does not entitle streamers to consider themselves entertainers. The mere fact of streaming should not be viewed as entertaining. But that's only my opinion.

Just think in the '60s up to some years ago. Comedians and actors were typically entertainers; then reality TV shows personalities became entertainers; now Youtubers are the most popular entertainers. You see a pattern? Less and less skills needed, just being yourself and it works. When will it happen that a fish playing Pokémon without knowing it will be considered an entertainer? Oh well...

 

[Ikuu]

In my opinion, it's more: job=something you're doing with effort and knowledge and preparation; not only physical effort but also cultural, and mental effort.

There's a thin line between what is a job and what is not (always in my opinion). The fact that people are entertained by streamers does not entitle streamers to consider themselves entertainers. The mere fact of streaming should not be viewed as entertaining. But that's only my opinion.

Just think in the '60s up to some years ago. Comedians and actors were typically entertainers; then reality TV shows personalities became entertainers; now Youtubers are the most popular entertainers. You see a pattern? Less and less skills needed, just being yourself and it works. When will it happen that a fish playing Pokémon without knowing it will be considered an entertainer? Oh well...

ok

If it requires so little skill then why not give it a go?

 

[KillerIsJed]

The fact that people are entertained by streamers does not entitle streamers to consider themselves entertainers. The mere fact of streaming should not be viewed as entertaining.

 

[Pennywise83]

Haha I should have explained better here the mere fact that some people are entertained should not be enough to consider streamers entertained. Not saying that streamers are not entertainers. They usually are.

 

[blazinglazers]

Haha I should have explained better here the mere fact that some people are entertained should not be enough to consider streamers entertained.

 

[Corpekata]

This for me as well. There will always be problems, big and small whenever money is involved.

I too do not stream for cash, but then again, I have no audience (and I'd wager people making this sort of statement do not either). I mean, I get that anyone can stream but unless you actually have an audience, who really cares what your reasons are? Get an audience and THEN don't take money and it'll mean something. Let's not pretend we're in the same ballpark as people that actually do make money off this.

 

[PandaPandaPanda]

I miss the days of Justin TV where people streamed for fun and there was none of this donation/subscriber stuff.

 

[charlequin]

In the more general case of a general streamer I think that, like any small business, you have to be ready for these kind of things, which includes setting aside money for charge-back cases and NOT taking fortuitous rare events at face value.

Well, we're talking about a 3 month window here. I would agree, it's wise to let donations cool off before using them, but credit card chargebacks can happen for two years after a purchase. Is it really reasonable to expect people to let money sit around for two years on the off chance that someone is slow-roll scamming them?

I miss the days of Justin TV where people streamed for fun and there was none of this donation/subscriber stuff.

You mean the days when almost nobody streamed? This is basically like longing for the old days when video games were just made for free by grad students working on university mainframes; there was no monetization because there wasn't enough product or market to support it yet.

 

[PandaPandaPanda]

Well, we're talking about a 3 month window here. I would agree, it's wise to let donations cool off before using them, but credit card chargebacks can happen for two years after a purchase. Is it really reasonable to expect people to let money sit around for two years on the off chance that someone is slow-roll scamming them?



You mean the days when almost nobody streamed? This is basically like longing for the old days when video games were just made for free by grad students working on university mainframes; there was no monetization because there wasn't enough product or market to support it yet.

I don't know what criteria you're using for "nobody" but I used to enjoy watching about 5-10 streamers that normally got ~500-1k people that I used to enjoy watching. Sure it's nothing compared to today as there's a lot more people streaming today(especially with PS4/One integration) but I wouldn't say nobody.

You also didn't have Kappa spam although there was Brainslug(I'd rather not use the other name before they removed it) spam

 

[Velcro Fly]

The worst offender: rwhitegoose, trying to raise 500,000 for a new house. He's at 7,000 or something. Lol

i can't even believe people take that seriously

 

[MattPeters]

The worst offender: rwhitegoose, trying to raise 500,000 for a new house. He's at 7,000 or something. Lol

You know its a joke right? Just like Reckfuls 300,000 'buy a lambo and drive in infront of Sodas house to make him jelly' fund.

 

[SocksForWoks]

Donations should be non-refundable unless the person receiving them agrees to.

 

[Death Metalist]

I too do not stream for cash, but then again, I have no audience (and I'd wager people making this sort of statement do not either). I mean, I get that anyone can stream but unless you actually have an audience, who really cares what your reasons are? Get an audience and THEN don't take money and it'll mean something. Let's not pretend we're in the same ballpark as people that actually do make money off this.

Yeah, I don't except for the people in my friend list + family members. However, I was merely stating that whenever money is evolved, there is bound to be problems no matter how big or small, It would only be a matter of time whenever these problems arise. Youtube content ID, Paypal, This twitch shitty thing.etc you name it and god knows what the future holds.

For the sake of argument though if I had the same audience, I still won't ask for money however, I don't but I still enjoy streaming or recording my gameplay even if no one watches or only a few did. I used to do that shit even back in the day. Have probably 10+ VHS tapes of my recording playing various games as well as a complete walk-through of MGS3 plus finding as much secrets as I can without a guide and to me it made me happy for the mere fact that my cousin took the tapes so he could use as walk-through then we can discuss about the stuff I missed and vice versa.

Not only that but I got to record whatever crazy shit that happened which is why I find one of the best features of this gen is that you could record the last 10 - 20 seconds or the last 10 - 15 minutes.

EDIT: I have no problem with the people asking or gaining money from their hobby, more power to them. I am merely talking about myself. However, with the risk they are taking by making it their job then they should have thought about such problems arising because everything in life when money is evolved there will be problems because at the end of the day, money is what keeps the world go round.

 

[charlequin]

I don't know what criteria you're using for "nobody"

Two or three orders of magnitude less than there are now? An activity isn't going to be monetized the same way when you have 60 people doing it as part of a VCed startup as it is when the site sells for $1 billion.

 

[Aureon]

Saint god i hate PayPal.
And it gets worse: There's people who simply proxy up, pay with their own paypal account, and proceed to then claim, a week or so later, that it wasn't their purchase.

Goddam scum, both paypal and abusers of that flawed system.

Donations should be non-refundable unless the person receiving them agrees to.

The problem is stolen accounts \ CCs.

 

[Impeccable]

Streaming is a job.


Taking donations back is shitty but unavoidable.

 

[ash321]

Haha I should have explained better here the mere fact that some people are entertained should not be enough to consider streamers entertained. Not saying that streamers are not entertainers. They usually are.

Wow, really ? What are you consider that job is then, do tell

Streaming is a job.


Taking donations back is shitty but unavoidable.

A guy cover some song on the street also take donations, are they also shitty ?

 

[AtomskEater]

Be extremely wary of donations in excess of what you could afford to lose if it were charged back is the moral I suppose.

I wish I could stream and be good enough to have people want to give me money, but I lack either exceptional talent at games or a good entertainer persona. Such is life.

 

[G-Fex]

Monetization and partnership aside that doesn't make the streams who don't have them (or take donations) any less better.

 

[Miletius]

Well, we're talking about a 3 month window here. I would agree, it's wise to let donations cool off before using them, but credit card chargebacks can happen for two years after a purchase. Is it really reasonable to expect people to let money sit around for two years on the off chance that someone is slow-roll scamming them?

You mean the days when almost nobody streamed? This is basically like longing for the old days when video games were just made for free by grad students working on university mainframes; there was no monetization because there wasn't enough product or market to support it yet.

Not at all. But I also think it's reasonable if you are streamer, and you are treating it as a job, then you should have a small fund that you put aside for these kind of incidents. So, if you make lets say $ 1000 a month streaming, then $ 20 or $ 30 should go towards a "oh shit I had something happen that I didn't anticipate" fund. Adjust as needed based on your income.

The random $ 2000 dollar donation is the other side of that coin, and those type of donations should always be taken with a huge grain of salt. It's weird, because I really don't want to discourage people from doing something with that kind of money, when they probably need it, but at the same time I'd always be extremely suspicious of that kind of donation. Be prepared to lose that money at any point in time, very shitty situation all around.