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[B_Signal]

Yet the same company invests millions of dollars in recreating the most realistic cathedrals, mosques & cities (along with the populations & their clothing) based upon mountains of research vis-à-vis the era in question. Yet no, f-it, realism is not something Assassin's Creed is interested in. So let's have everyone & their momma in the character creator.

Okay.

have you not played an Assassin's Creed before? Even if you ignore the premise of travelling back in time through your genes to see specific moments that wouldn't have any impact on your genetics (it literally makes no sense), look at what they did with Leonardo Da Vinci. You murder a pope at one point. And, and we may disagree here, I don't think the illuminati have been secretly controlling the world while in a perpetual war against the Assassin's

Also this is the 2nd game in the last few years (presumably from this team as lead) where you can pick different characters, it's not a new thing for the series.

 

[ruvikx]

I'd like a lucid explanation as to why gender selection is a bad thing in a videogame.

Should books or films feature gender choice? No, ergo obviously games with a narrative driven experience shouldn't either. I get that Assassin's Creed's story has taken a backseat in recent years, but aiming for maximum so-called 'inclusion' automatically reduces the real "diversity" of character types & roles (especially in an historical setting). It's either that or the realism is blown to pieces.

The notion someone should have their gender "represented" in a story is also just utterly preposterous & slightly comical. I'm just sitting here scratching my head when I read posts screeching "you're hysterical".

I'm sorry but what? For example should Altair have been available in a gender swapped white woman variant? (a logical finality to the identity push) Some would have found that quite offensive, actually.

 

[Revolutionary]

As long as I get a towel outfit for the female characters like they had for Bayek in AC:O, then I'm cool with it. Equal opportunity, after all!

 

[Doom85]

Should books or films feature gender choice? No, ergo obviously games with a narrative driven experience shouldn't either. I get that Assassin's Creed's story has taken a backseat in recent years, but aiming for maximum so-called 'inclusion' automatically reduces the real "diversity" of character types & roles (especially in an historical setting). It's either that or the realism is blown to pieces.

Are you actually saying all the rules apply to every medium? Well, books don't feature music either so I guess it was a mistake for movies to have film scores in them. Not every narrative has a lead heavily defined by their gender. Riley from Inside Out for example could have easily have been a boy and it would have changed practically nothing about the movie. Also, branching story narratives that alter character relations and who lives or dies aren't an option in movies so I guess Until Dawn was "CLEARLY" a bad horror story.

And what is this nonsense that a gender option means the narrative can't be engaging? Huh, funny, last time I checked most Star Wars fans consider Knights of the Old Republic to be one, if not the, best stories of any SW video game. And, oh hey, what do you know, that game had gender options! How crazy is that?! And that was a 2003 game where the player character didn't have voiced lines (and in spite of that, you could still give them a specific personality based on your dialogue options) which is not the case for ASO and what little gameplay/cutscenes I've seen makes it clear that the player character DOES have voiced lines and a personality.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

How many genders do we get to choose?

 

[SirKicksalot]

Spartan women were taught to fight.

They also had notoriously short clothes with slits on the sides which showed much more skin than in other regions, they showed one boob when exercising and competed fully naked. Somehow I doubt Kassandra will show boobs, though I appreciate Origins for having many, many boobs.

If these guys rage that much for the choice of playing a woman, I can't wait to see their faces when they learn that bisexuality and homosexuality was mainstream in ancient Greece and that their macho male hero will probably have some homoerotic romance choices at some point in the game, you know, for historical accuracy sake.

It wasn't mainstream, just a bit more mainstream compared to Abrahamic rules. Spartans were especially harsh against it, although pop-culture would have you thinking they were raging homosexuals. Across all Greece - and later Rome - being penetrated (including orally) was a gigantic shame, the kind of thing that ruined careers.

Spoiler

They also didn't like big dicks

 

[ruvikx]

Are you actually saying all the rules apply to every medium? Well, books don't feature music either so I guess it was a mistake for movies to have film scores in them. Not every narrative has a lead heavily defined by their gender. Riley from Inside Out for example could have easily have been a boy and it would have changed practically nothing about the movie. Also, branching story narratives that alter character relations and who lives or dies aren't an option in movies so I guess Until Dawn was "CLEARLY" a bad horror story.

And what is this nonsense that a gender option means the narrative can't be engaging? Huh, funny, last time I checked most Star Wars fans consider Knights of the Old Republic to be one, if not the, best stories of any SW video game. And, oh hey, what do you know, that game had gender options! How crazy is that?! And that was a 2003 game where the player character didn't have voiced lines (and in spite of that, you could still give them a specific personality based on your dialogue options) which is not the case for ASO and what little gameplay/cutscenes I've seen makes it clear that the player character DOES have voiced lines and a personality.

Your problem is the fact you want gender choice to be the norm, apparently, whereas I say an Assassin's Creed with a single lead & story based upon his or her character (not mine nor other gamers) makes for a far more solidly well-written experience. A few gender selection outliers (such as your quoted KOTOR) don't make it a widespread fact. I basically don't need to see myself on screen to enjoy a product.

I played Resident Evil games with Jill & Claire & that was fine (in fact perfect, even, especially considering Claire's campaign differs in RE2, for example). Some stories can endure a faceless racial/gender interchangeable hero (Jesus characters such as the Dragonborn & Shepard), but others...? No.

 

[DonF]

that's nice.
To have the option: excellent.
Being forced an agenda driven character just to pander and look "progressive": not cool.

 

[DigitalScrap]

Your problem is the fact you want gender choice to be the norm, apparently, whereas I say an Assassin's Creed with a single lead & story based upon his or her character (not mine nor other gamers) makes for a far more solidly well-written experience. A few gender selection outliers (such as your quoted KOTOR) don't make it a widespread fact. I basically don't need to see myself on screen to enjoy a product.

So, if they change all future AC games to ONLY feature a female character, you will be okay with that? You simply don’t like having a choice? If they announce tomorrow that they have decided to remove the male character and you can only be a female, you’d be fine?

I’m honestly curious why you think that having a choice means they can’t have a solidly well-written experience - why couldn’t they fully develop the character and story for each gender selection (as so many other games have done in the past)?

 

[Doom85]

Your problem is the fact you want gender choice to be the norm, apparently, whereas I say an Assassin's Creed with a single lead & story based upon his or her character (not mine nor other gamers) makes for a far more solidly well-written experience. A few gender selection outliers (such as your quoted KOTOR) don't make it a widespread fact. I basically don't need to see myself on screen to enjoy a product.

I played Resident Evil games with Jill & Claire & that was fine (in fact perfect, even, especially considering Claire's campaign differs in RE2, for example). Some stories can endure a faceless racial/gender interchangeable hero (Jesus characters such as the Dragonborn & Shepard), but others...? No.

This is a new hero/heroine for the AC series, not an established one. You're simply assuming it won't work and I love how you dismiss KOTOR even though it contradicts your narrative. And at no point did I ever say this should be the option for every game, but for a new game with a new lead, NOT an established lead, it's nice to have it as an option. And again, have you seen anything of AC: Odyssey? It's clear the lead will have tons of dialogue delivered by him/her independent of your input so they will not be just a player avatar.

And hey, if you don't need to see yourself as the lead, well you know you can pick gender, race, etc. and dialogue options in a lot of games that don't match your gender, race, etc. and dialogue preferences? I played a black woman in both South Park: The Fractured but Whole and Monster Hunter World, and as a white dude I'm pretty sure I'm not very similar-looking to either of my player characters in those games. I can also play a jerk who enjoys tormenting and abusing practically everyone in KOTOR before finally just becoming fully evil and I'm pretty sure I'm not like that IRL,

Also, your RE 2 example isn't very good. In that game, Leon could easily be a woman and Claire could easily be a man. There's nothing in that game that demands either of them be that gender so a gender choice for either of those characters wouldn't affect the story at all.

 

[ruvikx]

So, if they change all future AC games to ONLY feature a female character, you will be okay with that? You simply don’t like having a choice? If they announce tomorrow that they have decided to remove the male character and you can only be a female, you’d be fine?

I’m honestly curious why you think that having a choice means they can’t have a solidly well-written experience - why couldn’t they fully develop the character and story for each gender selection (as so many other games have done in the past)?

I believe I was perfectly clear earlier: in an historical setting (also applicable in many modern settings), only one gender, one race & one type of character is available in a particular story. So someone wants an Assassin's Creed game in which a 19th century Royal Navy officer is an Assassin? Tough luck, no gender choice available, ergo either the story takes a fantasy turn & ceases to be a realistic setting, or it doesn't happen & they make something else with a reduced variety of characters instead because two genders are required to fit into one single journey & story-arc. It might have worked in 19th century Victorian London as a couple of everyday civilians (Syndicate) but it most certainly would not have worked in Assassin's Creed 1.

There you have it, i.e. by forcing in gender choice they're either limiting their own narrative options for future characters in the series or they're taking away its pretences at realistically portraying an epoch.

 

[hecatomb]

I dont really care cause I'm not going to buy the game, I've been boycotting assassin creed games for a while now.

 

[ruvikx]

Also, your RE 2 example isn't very good. In that game, Leon could easily be a woman and Claire could easily be a man. There's nothing in that game that demands either of them be that gender so a gender choice for either of those characters wouldn't affect the story at all.

Leon & Claire are iconic characters known by millions upon millions around the world. They're central pillars of the Resident Evil series & 'universe'. So no, they cannot be replaced & most certainly shouldn't be swapped for some random avatar of the person playing the game.

 

[Doom85]

Leon & Claire are iconic characters known by millions upon millions around the world. They're central pillars of the Resident Evil series & 'universe'. So no, they cannot be replaced & most certainly shouldn't be swapped for some random avatar of the person playing the game.

Leon and Claire were INTRODUCED in RE 2. They were not iconic characters then when no one even knew them yet until the game came out. If you swapped their genders I'm willing to bet they would be just as well-liked. And I didn't say they would become player avatars, how does "swapping genders" equate "removing all dialogue" to you? Are you even reading my posts?

 

[mckmas8808]

Identity politics in storytelling & art is a mistake. It'll quickly devolve into demands to have everyone represented, no matter their race, creed (pardon the pun), religion or gender(s). It's a dead-end because you cannot cater to the whims of 7 billion people on planet earth.

You seem upset by people having a simple choice.

 

[RedVIper]

But an Irish sailor can be a samurai demon-hunter in Nioh. I don't think there's an objective rule as to who can or can't be in what roles in a game.

The issue arises if customers want a historical experience, and/or if the developers claim to be offering a historical experience. Then it has nothing to do with the representation and everything to do with the inconsistent logic. When these developers bark at their critics, it is only natural to think there's an agenda behind it all.

But that doesn't mean that any inclusion of a gender selector is a part of the overall "goal" of... whatever nefarious goal is being served here.

You know Nioh character is based on a real person right?

 

[Cunth]

Mostly those, where "...is a mistake" is not an acceptable answer. And believe me that, I attended fun and roaring parties where themes like "video games and representation" WHERE talking themes.

 

[wolywood]

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...yssey-is-changing-the-face-of-assassins-creed

I'm not sure if I like this. I like how you can create a character or change gender in some games but I don't want that in Assassin's Creed. I like to have one great main character(or two like in Syndicate). I think the story can be better when its written for one character. I wonder how different the story will be when you play as Kassandra or Alexios? I hope there will be Assassin's Creed game with a woman main character only. I know there is Liberation but that wasn't a big game for consoles.

I was one of the testers for this game. There isn't much difference story wise between the two main characters (at least tnot the parts I played).

 

[B_Signal]

I believe I was perfectly clear earlier: in an historical setting (also applicable in many modern settings), only one gender, one race & one type of character is available in a particular story. So someone wants an Assassin's Creed game in which a 19th century Royal Navy officer is an Assassin? Tough luck, no gender choice available, ergo either the story takes a fantasy turn & ceases to be a realistic setting, or it doesn't happen & they make something else with a reduced variety of characters instead because two genders are required to fit into one single journey & story-arc. It might have worked in 19th century Victorian London as a couple of everyday civilians (Syndicate) but it most certainly would not have worked in Assassin's Creed 1.

There you have it, i.e. by forcing in gender choice they're either limiting their own narrative options for future characters in the series or they're taking away its pretences at realistically portraying an epoch.

this is the problem. You realise it can work, they just can't write certain types of stories or have 1 character for both if it needs to play a certain role. I doubt most would disagree, but you're not factoring in that they might know this themselves and will do things as they have in Syndicate and the new game

 

[ExpandKong]

That’s fine with me. There are instances were two genders can bring different perspectives to the game. I care more about an enjoyable experience over historical accuracy.

I agree...but this is Ubisoft we’re talking about, I wouldn’t expect any effort on their part when it comes to tailoring the game’s story or anything in any meaningful way.

Edit:

I was one of the testers for this game. There isn't much difference story wise between the two main characters (at least tnot the parts I played).

There you go.

 

[TGO]

I kinda miss the whole ancestry thing they had before.
I mean who are these people, just randoms being controlled in the animus by another random?

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

You know Nioh character is based on a real person right?

Yes, but the gameplay and setting are hardly historical. And one could still make the argument that it was "whitewashing" (or whatever flimsy term) to cast an obscure Irish person as the hero of a Samurai game when there were plenty of Japanese warriors from that time who could've been a better fit.

I'm not saying he should've been omitted from the game. I personally am not fearful of "agenda-driven" game development. There are very obvious examples of "agenda driven decisions" in gaming and including the option to be a woman in an AssCreed game is waaaaaaay down on that list. We're looking for the SJW devil under every rock. General statements about how "[race] should never be in this [historical setting]" are valid unless the setting is not historical. Neither Nioh or Odyssey are "historical".

On the other hand, if Nioh's story was based on a historical Irish sailor, but instead "he" became a "she" then it would conflict with their own logic.

 

[48086]

Cool, seems just fine to me! The games aren't based on in depth historical accuracy so do what you want Ubisoft.

 

[Straight Edge]

Assassin's Creed is a literal historical setting which places its protagonist in eras which had rules. By forcing gender choice into future projects, they'd be either cutting-back on potential characters which could only be a particular gender at that time (whether male or female), or throwing the 'realism' of their world out the window.

Do these rules include fighting a pope in hand to hand combat?

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Do these rules include fighting a pope in hand to hand combat?

Or ancient holograms?

 

[RedVIper]

Yes, but the gameplay and setting are hardly historical. And one could still make the argument that it was "whitewashing" (or whatever flimsy term) to cast an obscure Irish person as the hero of a Samurai game when there were plenty of Japanese warriors from that time who could've been a better fit.

I'm not saying he should've been omitted from the game. I personally am not fearful of "agenda-driven" game development. There are very obvious examples of "agenda driven decisions" in gaming and including the option to be a woman in an AssCreed game is waaaaaaay down on that list. We're looking for the SJW devil under every rock. General statements about how "[race] should never be in this [historical setting]" are valid unless the setting is not historical. Neither Nioh or Odyssey are "historical".

On the other hand, if Nioh's story was based on a historical Irish sailor, but instead "he" became a "she" then it would conflict with their own logic.

How is it whitewashing to tell the story of a real person, I don't follow your logic, the whole point was to tell his story. The devs said themselves that they were fascinated by an English pirate lading in Japanese shores and becoming a samurai and later on an advisor, I'm not sure how your perceive this as "whitewashing".

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

You know Nioh character is based on a real person right?

I'm glad you said this.

 

[thief183]

That's cool, but I think the Syndicate system was very cool. As long as it doean't make the characteer even more blad It is ok for me

edit: you know guys that assassin's creed isn't historically accurate right? cause some of you act as if it is a reconstruction.....

 

[WaterAstro]

If it's a choice then it'll suck because the character won't be portrayed well for the timeline. Men and women are definitely treated differently in the past, and they should make the character about that. Just go full female if they want to promote women.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

How is it whitewashing to tell the story of a real person, I don't follow your logic, the whole point was to tell his story. The devs said themselves that they were fascinated by an English pirate lading in Japanese shores and becoming a samurai and later on an advisor, I'm not sure how your perceive this as "whitewashing".

I don't perceive it that way, nor am I agreeing with the logic that it was whitewashing.

 

[RedVIper]

I don't perceive it that way, nor am I agreeing with the logic that it was whitewashing.

You said this "And one could still make the argument that it was "whitewashing" (or whatever flimsy term) to cast an obscure Irish person as the hero of a Samurai game when there were plenty of Japanese warriors from that time who could've been a better fit."

Make up your mind.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

You said this "And one could still make the argument that it was "whitewashing" (or whatever flimsy term) to cast an obscure Irish person as the hero of a Samurai game when there were plenty of Japanese warriors from that time who could've been a better fit."

Make up your mind.

*sigh*

In the greater context of what I was saying, I'm pointing out that gender choice is not objectively "agenda based". Context needs to be applied.

I used Nioh as my example of stupid conclusions one could draw when you remove context.

 

[Dunki]

Not really a good idea. I rather want a female character or male on each time. Then you can actually flesh these characters out. Having a choice will hinder that in my opinion. Your gender also defines who you are and what kind of experiences you will get especially in a historical setting. These new ones seem so shallow I have really no interest to play this game at all...

 

[RedVIper]

*sigh*

In the greater context of what I was saying, I'm pointing out that gender choice is not objectively "agenda based". Context needs to be applied.

I used Nioh as my example of stupid conclusions one could draw when you remove context.

Considering I made no arguments about the gender in Assassins creed and was merely pointing out that Nioh character is based on a real life person ( Since you were using Nioh as an example of why anyone can be in any role) I still don't understand why you're arguing with me about any agenda.

OT: It's fine for AC Odyssey to have gender options because aparently it wants to be an RPG and the story will most likely be shit anyways, I have an issue with forcing every game to have gender options because it would be hard to make a cohesive narrative when it had to accommodate several different characters and still make sense, so you invariably end up making sacrifices story wise.

 

[lukilladog]

How many genders do we get to choose?

That´s the question, if they want to play this stupid idealist agenda they better prepare to handle all the shitload of variations people comes in. Having only one selectable gender in a game isn´t a bad thing at all.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

On topic, I don't really care about this in AC. It can work. And if it stops people moaning then good.

My suspicion, however, is that the usual suspects won't be sated with this. We've already heard the moronic 'gender fluid' bullshit in relation to Cyberpunk.

 

[ROMhack]

At the risk of sounding serious, is the main character in Assassin's Creed games even important? I got the feeling the series was about running around doing stuff, doing some side-quests, and then watching over more interesting characters do stuff, and then doing more side-quests.

 

[Thiagosc777]

At the risk of sounding serious, is the main character in Assassin's Creed games even important? I got the feeling the series was about running around doing stuff, doing some side-quests, and then watching over more interesting characters do stuff, and then doing more side-quests.

I have played several of their games, even 100% some of them, and I have no idea what is going on. All I know is that there are assassins in it. They could put a dancing monkey there and I wouldn't know if that's part of the lore or not.

 

[iorek21]

AC is slowly dying with stuff like this

I hope Ghost of Tsushima smashes this franchise once and for all

RIP, my favorite series

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

I agree...but this is Ubisoft we’re talking about, I wouldn’t expect any effort on their part when it comes to tailoring the game’s story or anything in any meaningful way.

Heh, I have a strong feeling you are correct. I was probably being a little too optimistic.

 

[xellos2099alpha]

this is the problem. You realise it can work, they just can't write certain types of stories or have 1 character for both if it needs to play a certain role. I doubt most would disagree, but you're not factoring in that they might know this themselves and will do things as they have in Syndicate and the new game

Perfect example is in assassin's Creed origin where Byrak go to a bathhouse to kill a man. If it was a female playable character it won't fly. In Syndicate it work because the two are on a different story path but some mission they do it together.

 

[Pompi]

Ultima 7 part 2 already had a gender choice for the avatar. I think as a woman you had different option to "solve quests". Like there was one guy you needed something from, I think as a woman you could have sex with him and as a man you couldn't.

 

[Roni]

Should books or films feature gender choice? No, ergo obviously games with a narrative driven experience shouldn't either.

Man, you're so off the mark on this I'm not even sure you're in this conversation.

There aren't any rules that dictate a medium should or must following in the footsteps of earlier ones. In fact, empirical evidence is totally not on your side in this.

 

[Ichabod]

Never fails to make me cringe. Oof.

 

[gunslikewhoa]

Mostly those, where "...is a mistake" is not an acceptable answer. And believe me that, I attended fun and roaring parties where themes like "video games and representation" WHERE talking themes.

Sure you did, pal.

 

[ruvikx]

Man, you're so off the mark on this I'm not even sure you're in this conversation.

There aren't any rules that dictate a medium should or must following in the footsteps of earlier ones. In fact, empirical evidence is totally not on your side in this.

Solid Snake, Nathan Drake, Kratos, Jill Valentine, Lara Croft etc. etc. (off the top of my head), i.e. iconic video game characters known around the world who were written specifically for one gender with one personality & often defined story-arc. What's your "empirical evidence"? As far as I'm concerned this topic has been taken-over by people who really don't give a flying fuck about individual characters being well written & would rather see avatars of the players in the games.

That's fine... for some, but not all. With regards to Assassin's Creed it'll mean a flurry of less charismatic characters because the underlining question Ubisoft ask themselves before greenlighting a project is "tell me about the opposite gender playable character". Just look at Far Cry 5: the playable character is cardboard. A nothing, merely a gun on screen. I'm sorry, but that's a shit approach to storytelling. The whole thread BTW pertains to Ubisoft announcing they're going forwards with gender choice in their stories.

That entails clipping their own wings in terms of potential narratives. It's an unavoidable side-effect. When the makers of a game insert identity into the story before they've even explored potential plot points & characters, it's automatically conforming to a reduced number of potential starting points & outcomes.

 

[ruvikx]

Sorry for the double-post.

You seem upset by people having a simple choice.

"Choice" is meaningless. In this instance it's just a buzzword used by political interlopers who wish to paint their bland narratives as "better than before" because there's a gender option in the game. I want better characters, better stories & events/plots which fit within the genre/timeline of the narrative. When people focus on superficial "representation of the player", they're no longer telling a story, no, they're engaging in genderspoitation. aka 'Buy our game because your gender is represented in the playable character menu screen".

What the fuck? Write a story & character worthy of consideration first, for crying out loud.

 

[InterMusketeer]

It is true that all this work and money that's going into adding a female character, could have been used to make the game better in other ways, with more content or what have you. In that sense it's better to have the developers pick one character and focus all their efforts on that.

We're talking about Ass Creed though, so who gives a damn? Those games have always sucked and will likely continue to suck forever. My reaction to this news? "Okay."

 

[mckmas8808]

At the risk of sounding serious, is the main character in Assassin's Creed games even important? I got the feeling the series was about running around doing stuff, doing some side-quests, and then watching over more interesting characters do stuff, and then doing more side-quests.

The story has been crap since AC: 4 Black Flag.

 

[Roni]

Solid Snake, Nathan Drake, Kratos, Jill Valentine, Lara Croft etc. etc. (off the top of my head), i.e. iconic video game characters known around the world who were written specifically for one gender with one personality & often defined story-arc. What's your "empirical evidence"?

My empirical evidence relies on the fact that Solid Snake doesn't really exist, and even if he did, one man infiltrations don't happen.
Nathan Drake doesn't really exist, and even if he did, no realistic person has the stamina, precision, stealth and luck Drake has.
The list goes on....

Games have a lot more unrealistic things in them than they do realistic ones. All of those characters could've been a woman with adequate changes to story, changes which wouldn't even be changes if you built from the ground up with the other gender in mind. Grasping at this to try and defend games should remain as limited as book or movies doesn't fly. We have a medium in which both sexes can play roughly the same experience, with custom special sections based on their sex and sexual orientation. It's time we put that to use.