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[Vizzeh]

.

Thanks for your input on Poroshenko, I don't know much about him either. Although he has clearly been a talking point other than that potentially miss-interpreted leak.

The Finnish Institute of International Affairs pointed out one more proof of Russia's involvement in Ukraine, in no other document than the Minsk II agreement:



http://t.co/0EeizkN2sB (PDF), via https://twitter.com/lucian_kim/status/566547026650083329

More proof that the Russian's are arming the Separatists although, the fact that they are so heavily geared couldn't be for any other reason. Ukraine has access to its military and with Russia backing the eastern-rebellion silently to adhere to their interests.

The scary thing is that if Russia no longer have to "hide" the fact their supplying subtlety they would be able to overwhelm anything in Ukraine quite quickly if publicly announcing it.

 

[Pedrito]

Wait, some people are seriously trying to spin that "Our Ukraine insider" means "our insider/our agent"?

-Capitalised "O"
-The acronym "OU" in brackets is then used a bunch of times later on.

It's not even remotely ambiguous.

 

[Resident_UA]

Thanks for your input on Poroshenko, I don't know much about him either. Although he has clearly been a talking point other than that potentially miss-interpreted leak.

Dude, you don't know much about anyone in Ukraine, yet you keep making assumptions about Ukraine. In fact I already explained to you about a guy in a video and how he is connected to the conflict in Ukraine, and you keep posting that video. WTF?

Russian propaganda is using you and you are just taking it in.

 

[MisterFalcon]

To be fair, regardless what it means or what information that leak holds, if it is ambiguous or not, it is just a piece of information. No one is going to own up to anything. It may or may not be true, its just 1 point amongst many reasons to be sceptical on the official narrative that can be disproved or approved easily.

It isn't even that great a piece of information. Just a point.

And yet you connsidered it valid enough to use it to claim 'Petro Poroshenko was an agent for US States State Department', an extremely serious allegation of treason.

edit: Funny how you used the erroneous term "US States State Department" which comes exactly like that from http://www.globalresearch.ca/presid...-insider-for-the-u-s-state-department/5386891 with the same error even though you did not quote it and made it seem like something you wrote.

 

[ICKE]

KevinRothrock: http://t.co/i95Gy4Nt4Y Donetsk rebels say Minsk 2 ceasefire doesn't apply to Debaltseve. "There's not one word about it in the agreement."

http://www.gazeta.ru/social/news/2015/02/14/n_6925249.shtml

DNR will not follow cease-fire within "territories that belong to the Republic". So that's pretty much that. Unless Debaltseve falls the fighting will continue.

 

[Vizzeh]

And yet you connsidered it valid enough to use it to claim 'Petro Poroshenko was an agent for US States State Department', an extremely serious allegation of treason.

It is not my allegation. None of the information I posted is my own, its just rational as to why I question what is going on, I am here to be educated. Infact I will delete that part of the information as it seems to be the general consensus that its meaning is false.

Edit for your edit.: I had quite a lot of articles, I seen that being mentioned before, however I needed some context to the wiki. But if that aspect is false, it is an easy thing to discredit, as it is definately ambigious. What about the phone tapping etc and the McCain ties to Svoboda the extreme right-wing neo-nazi group?

Dude, you don't know much about anyone in Ukraine, yet you keep making assumptions about Ukraine. In fact I already explained to you about a guy in a video and how he is connected to the conflict in Ukraine, and you keep posting that video. WTF?

Russian propaganda is using you and you are just taking it in.

Cheers Resident, I know you did. It was relevant to my "rational" to question, im not saying that video is genuine but I felt its for others to discredit.

 

[Osiris]

There is nothing rational about someone who uses information taken from globalresearch.ca as anything other than looney-tune conspiracy theory bullshit.

Even the smallest amount of research about them should lead you to enough information to dismiss them as bullshit merchants.

 

[Vizzeh]

There is nothing rational about someone who uses information taken from globalresearch.ca as anything other than looney-tune conspiracy theory bullshit.

Even the smallest amount of research about them should lead you to enough information to dismiss them as bullshit merchants.

So your jumping on 1 element of an entire post. I said in the end to that post that it all as a whole was not to be taken literally, the entire post was a concept, not hinging on 1 piece of information.

As I said before, I wasn't going to engage with ignorance.

 

[Resident_UA]

So your jumping on 1 element of an entire post. I said in the end to that post that it all was not to be taken literally, the entire post was a concept, not hinging on 1 piece of information.

As I said before, I wasn't going to engage with ignorance.

1 element?!! Every single thing you posted was disputed by someone.

How ignoring it is not ignorance?

 

[SymbiantXenos]

So according to the "rebel" leader they have a right to shell Debaltsevr. BUT if the Ukraine army try to defend itself or leave then that is a minsk violation.

THAT right there tells you all you need to know about this situation.

 

[Vizzeh]

1 element?!! Every single thing you posted was disputed by someone.

Other than The wikileak article on the Ukraine president, which I had my doubts anyway, it was only there as context and the video which only you said was not accurate, giving opinion and not fact.

What other aspects in that last post were false, as they were backed up with sources?

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Charting new grounds of smug psuedointellectualism ITT right now holy moley.

 

[Resident_UA]

Other than The wikileak article on the Ukraine president, which I had my doubts anyway, it was only there as context and the video which only you said was not accurate, giving opinion and not fact.

What other aspects in that last post were false, as they were backed up with sources?

That video is misleading. It's out of context. And you're too lazy to actually research what the context is. How is that not ignorance?

 

[Vastag]

I'm usually very cynical about the sockpupetting and astroturfing allegations, but holy shit, sometimes this thread makes me a believer.

 

[Vizzeh]

Anyway guys, I just wanted to explain my theory to scepticism no more, perhaps Putin is just a war-monger-er.

Carry-on, I don't really want involve much more, it really was just a theory based on media articles etc that Iv read. I was hoping to get some input on the legitimisy on it as a "theory" based on some of the assertions mentioned. I don't want to de-rail the thread much more

 

[Purkake4]

I'm usually very cynical about the sockpupetting and astroturfing allegations, but holy shit, sometimes this thread makes me a believer.

Information war is super cost effective, a few people can pretty much screw up the only Ukraine thread on GAF.

 

[Osiris]

Anyway guys, I just wanted to explain my theory to scepticism no more, perhaps Putin is just a war-monger-er.

Carry-on, I don't really want involve much more, it really was just a theory based on media articles etc that Iv read. I was hoping to get some input on the legitimisy on it as a "theory" based on some of the assertions mentioned. I don't want to de-rail the thread much more

For a Brit your English is terrible, and for a skeptic your reasoning and ability to filter sources is as bad as your English.

The input to the "legitimacy" of your theories is simply that the above two facts make me dismiss everything you post.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Anyway guys, I just wanted to explain my theory to scepticism no more, perhaps Putin is just a war-monger-er.

Carry-on, I don't really want involve much more, it really was just a theory based on media articles etc that Iv read. I was hoping to get some input on the legitimisy on it as a "theory" based on some of the assertions mentioned. I don't want to de-rail the thread much more

Nice Engrish.

 

[Vizzeh]

For a Brit your English is terrible, and for a skeptic your reasoning and ability to filter sources is as bad as your English.

The input to the "legitimacy" of your theories is simply that the above two facts make me dismiss everything you post.

I went from using my PC to my smartphone. Apologies, I don't claim to be an expert at all. Anyway, as I said I don't want to derail the thread on a controversial topic I'm not even sure about myself, I was just hoping for a rational discussion as a whole. The uprising stories in Kiev and when researching it, imo went to ponderous places but I guess until it is reported as fact it is irrelevant.

 

[Osiris]

I went from using my PC to my smartphone. Apologies, I don't claim to be an expert at all. Anyway, as I said I don't want to derail the thread on a controversial topic I'm not even sure about myself, I was just hoping for a rational discussion as a whole. The uprising stories in Kiev and when researching it, imo went to ponderous places but I guess until it is reported as fact it is irrelevant.

Ponderous?

Here's an idea, until you actually know what a word means, stop using it.

 

[Hrothgar]

"Questioning" is just synonym for spreading FUD when it comes to this conflict.

 

[SymbiantXenos]

There's nothing wrong with alternative views. But when the overwhelming evidence points to Russia fueling this conflict, there isn't anything to dispute.

 

[Vizzeh]

Ponderous?

Here's an idea, until you actually know what a word means, stop using it.

Come on man, you knew what I meant. As I said I have guests and using my smart phone. "Pondering" or dubious. Wrong context now.

 

[AlphaDump]

I'm usually very cynical about the sockpupetting and astroturfing allegations, but holy shit, sometimes this thread makes me a believer.

it's pretty funny how i posted a few general questions about the conflict and got immediate responses from one side and completely ignored by the other.

then when i repost these questions and specifically address their user names in this thread, they still continue to post forward completely neglecting my post.


it also seems that one side of this discussion keeps claiming to leave the discussion when facts start pinning them against the wall.

just trying to have a "ponderous" discussion here

 

[Vizzeh]

There's nothing wrong with alternative views. But when the overwhelming evidence points to Russia fueling this conflict, there isn't anything to dispute.

Yeah, seemingly it's bad taste, I have no interest in backing the alternative narrative but I was interested whilst being devil's advocate in the discussion of it

 

[SymbiantXenos]

Yeah, seemingly it's bad taste, I have no interest in backing the alternative narrative but I was interested whilst being devil's advocate in the discussion of it

With all due respect. Devils advocate doesn't apply in this case (in my opinion)

 

[chadskin]

A Russian TV Insider Describes a Modern Propaganda Machine

LONDON — NORMALLY a boisterous sort, Peter Pomerantsev says he kept quiet when he found himself, at the age of 24, in a Moscow meeting room listening to 20 of the country’s top media executives discussing the news agenda for the week.

Not what the news was, but what they would make it, said Mr. Pomerantsev, the author of a recent book chronicling the moral and financial corruption of modern-day Moscow and the manipulation of a Russian television industry that he later joined.

He listened in amazement, he says, as a prominent news anchor reviewed the coming events as if they were part of a film script, musing on how best to entertain the audience and questioning who that week’s enemy should be.

“It was shocking,” said Mr. Pomerantsev, speaking over coffee in London last month. “They really saw television and news as a movie, and talked about it as a movie.”

That was in 2002. With the conflict in Ukraine now part of an information war, as well as a physical one, Mr. Pomerantsev’s book, “Nothing Is True and Everything Is Possible,” has particular resonance, describing a world where laws change at the whim of the powerful and where television provides an ever-present, entertaining and emotionally charged distortion of reality.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/14/w...ays-putin-is-running-the-show-in-ukraine.html

 

[Phantast2k]

I don't think Vizzeh is a paid troll, just someone with a truther mentality. And despite his Engrish he may still be a Brit (e.g.: recent immigrant).
Since Russian propaganda is primarily aimed at these people (question EVERYTHING), it's not too outlandish that he simply got caught up in it in some truther forum or whatnot.

I mean, he could just as well ask why the DNR flag appeared at the Russian international youth educational (camp) forum SELIGER in 2013 together with Dugin's Eurasia movement clowns.

source from August 20th, 2013, main source was taken down

Or why the self-proclaimed mayor of Donetsk Gubarev was trained by Russian nazis:

Or why all of the separatist leaders were Russian citizens (e.g. Grikin, Borodai, Bezler) before Russians could find Ukrainian pawns they could set up for fake elections to lend DNR and LNR more credibility.

Or that Putin allegedly said this in 2008:

In April 2008, a source told Russia's Kommersant newspaper how Putin described Ukraine to George Bush at a NATO meeting in Bucharest: "You don't understand, George, that Ukraine is not even a state. What is Ukraine? Part of its territories is Eastern Europe, but the greater part is a gift from us."

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1900838,00.html

But he chose not to or he simply doesn't know. I feel like he's not a paid troll, but because his one-sided arguments his alternative sources of information must be slanted towards Russia.

@Vizzeh`s arguments:

Svoboda party is no more or less Nazi than a host of parties which sit in EU parliaments (France, Greece, Hungary). They were among the opposition parties which were against Yanukovich, but since then the Ukrainians have rejected them by not electing them into the parliament in 2014.

The phone call is nothing new, confirmed to be real, was widely reported in Europe and changes nothing in the equation.
Similar phone calls must have been made between European leaders who tried to broker a settlement between Yanukovich & Maidan while also contemplating about a possible political setup for a future Ukraine without Yanukovich.

Here's my take on the Tsarev's video: per description it is originally from Nov. 20th, 2013. Euromaidan started a day later, on Nov. 21st.
Clearly by then he as someone who was known as one of the parties members most against closer relations between Ukraine and the European Union knew that his party (Yanukovich's party) were going to reject EU association agreement and that it would spark protests. So to discredit the upcoming protests he made that speech about Tech Camp and U.S. incited revolutions (aka. organization of revolutions through social media...)
This "Tech Camp" is also far from being a secret:
http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/events/techcamp-2013-kyiv.html
http://wiki.techcampglobal.org/index.php?title=TechCamp_Kyiv

----------------------------------------

Statement by the Trilateral Contact Group on consultations in Minsk on 14 February 2015
Kyiv, 14 February 2015 - Following the recent summit meeting of in the Normandy Format in Minsk, the Trilateral Contact Group (TCG), consisting of senior representatives of Ukraine, the Russian Federation and the OSCE Chairperson-in-Office, today, 14 February 2015, a round of consultations in the form of a video-conference with representatives of certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

Issues of the practical implementation of the “Package of Measures for the Implementation of the Minsk Agreements”, adopted in Minsk on 12 February 2015, were discussed during the consultations. Particular emphasis was placed on full respect of provisions concerning the ceasefire, which should be strictly implemented from 15 February 2015 at 00.00 hours Kiev time, as well as the withdrawal of heavy weapons, as agreed in the Package of Measures.

It was agreed that all actors will undertake all necessary measures aimed at achieving the above objectives and the speedy de-escalation of ongoing hostilities in the conflict zone, in particular in the vicinity of the towns of Debaltseve and Mariupol, which have seen the heaviest fighting in recent days.

It was also decided that the Trilateral Contact Group will hold further consultations with representatives of certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions on a regular basis in order to facilitate the full implementation of the Minsk Agreements of 5 and 19 September 2014 and the Package of Measures of 12 February 2015.

http://us6.campaign-archive1.com/?u=b11aceda364f8f9afa6cadbbb&id=76394ac9f1&e=3612d1ad47

@olgatokariuk (Hromadske International journalist)
Three hours before ceasefire in #Ukraine is supposed to start, heavy fighting goes on in Donbas: shelling in Debaltseve, Artemivsk, Avdiivka

‏@herszenhorn (New York Times reporter based in Moscow)
Poroshenko: "We are dealing with a treacherous and cynical enemy" if truce fails, says will ask Parliament to back martial law in #Ukraine

Translation of the Zakharchenko statement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k8rJp9Tdi8

 

[Jackpot]

To be fair, regardless what it means or what information that leak holds, if it is ambiguous or not, it is just a piece of information. No one is going to own up to anything. It may or may not be true, its just 1 point amongst many reasons to be sceptical on the official narrative that can be disproved or approved easily.

It isn't even that great a piece of information. Just a point.

wat.

"it's just a piece of info. it could be true or false so let's post anything."

im not saying that video is genuine but I felt its for others to discredit.

no... it's for the poster to research before they derail a discussion with it. It's not our job to do fact checking for you.

 

[Kabouter]

Dutch national broadcaster was reporting that large amounts of troops, armour and other heavy equipment were being sent to the front even this afternoon by Ukraine. I really can't imagine the fighting will cease at midnight.

 

[Mully]

Yeah, seemingly it's bad taste, I have no interest in backing the alternative narrative but I was interested whilst being devil's advocate in the discussion of it

Fuck off. You're now claiming to play Devils Advocate, when all you've done is get offended by our issues with the "questions" you were asking? You honestly should be banned for the amount of harm you caused this news thread with your pseudo intellectualism and horribly sourced information.

 

[Bedameister]

jeah I also don't think the cease fire will last.

 

[Vizzeh]

Fuck off. You're now claiming to play Devils Advocate, when all you've done is get offended by our issues with the "questions" you were asking? You honestly should be banned for the amount of harm you caused this news thread with your pseudo intellectualism and horribly sourced information.

It was an alternative view dude, I stated many times it wasn't my view, I even mentioned 'devils advocate' a couple pages back. My only offence is that I was intended on having a discussion on its possibility, pre-phrasing many times what I was doing, I only got abuse for it and personally attacked.

I thought it was a semi-decent argument on some points, but again it was only to counter-the main theme as theory, as a concept, the entire post was. Trust me mate, iv gave up on it, its not worth it. Everyone is extremely emotional on it and takes every point as if I believed in it, when it was simply for discussion. It was one I was going to give up on, only I got a very rational view/post from Kabouter and I guess got a second wind on it.

There is nothing wrong with counter-thinking something, no one should apologize for asking questions ever. I am sure many wars could have been avoided in history if only the people reversed the situation and looked at the point of view from the otherside, thats not the case here obviously but sure, as I said, im certainly not going to entertain that theme again, its not something you can bring up in real-life as it is harder to keep mind and bullet-point pre-text and motive, I had the impression that if I pre-phrased everything with the view that I was just after a balanced conversation and shared my allegiance I would have got the run of the green.

Likely because I have got some peoples emotions a little high, unintentionally, I will get targeted somewhere here. Again Apologies.

 

[captainnapalm]

Here's my take on the Tsarev's video: per description it is originally from Nov. 20th, 2013. Euromaidan started a day later, on Nov. 21st.
Clearly by then he as someone who was known as one of the parties members most against closer relations between Ukraine and the European Union knew that his party (Yanukovich's party) were going to reject EU association agreement and that it would spark protests. So to discredit the upcoming protests he made that speech about Tech Camp and U.S. incited revolutions (aka. organization of revolutions through social media...)
This "Tech Camp" is also far from being a secret:
http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/events/techcamp-2013-kyiv.html
http://wiki.techcampglobal.org/index.php?title=TechCamp_Kyiv

So an Ukranian politician goes before parliament to reveal information that a western-backed coup, civil war and violent overthrow of power was being plotted and the very next day all hell breaks loose.

But this was just a clever ruse to discredit anticipated protests at failing to accept the EU deal? Which then amazingly took the form of a violent overthrow of power.

That's some impressive mental gymnastics. How could he have anticipated that the shit would hit the fan that badly? Occam's Razor would suggest the far likelier explanation is this guy caught wind of what was going down.

Interesting that Ron Paul, the only American politician with a shred of credibility when it comes to US foreign policy, has admitted the coup was US and EU backed. There are also several Western academics who have said this, but their views don't get spread in the mainstream media. Also at least one head of state, the president of the Czech Republic.

Also, the more information that comes out regarding the initial sniper killings the more they point away from Yanukovych.

The truth will come out eventually. It never does at the time, the media and lying politicians take care of that. But eventually it'll join this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

Looking forward to that Oliver Stone movie on Ukraine.

 

[chadskin]

Dutch national broadcaster was reporting that large amounts of troops, armour and other heavy equipment were being sent to the front even this afternoon by Ukraine. I really can't imagine the fighting will cease at midnight.

jeah I also don't think the cease fire will last.

Worth keeping an eye on this live updates page: https://bellingcat.checkdesk.org/en/story/426

Bellingcat will monitor the ceasefire using social media reports and attempt to verify claims of ceasefire violations. As Bellingcat tweeted today, "thanks to social media the Ukraine ceasefire will probably be the most closely scrutinised in history."

If anyone wants to participate or just learn about their methods, here's an overview: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-...-ukrainian-ceasefire-with-silk-and-checkdesk/

 

[Jackpot]

It was an alternative view dude, I stated many times it wasn't my view

so you were trolling.

no one should apologize for asking questions ever.

"Is this blatantly fake article that justifies the needless slaughter of thousands true, guys?"

 

[Mully]

Interesting that Ron Paul, the only American politician with a shred of credibility when it comes to US foreign policy, has admitted the coup was US and EU backed.

The truth will come out eventually.

Looking forward to that Oliver Stone movie on Ukraine.

Oh god. I know where all the Truthers went now.

 

[EricTheCleric]

Interesting that Ron Paul, the only American politician with a shred of credibility

https://www.google.se/search?q=ron+...j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8&qscrl=1

 

[Vizzeh]

so you were trolling.



"Is this blatantly fake article that justifies the needless slaughter of thousands true, guys?"

I intentionally stayed away from ridiculous sites and tried to use as much reasonably credible sources as possible, the guardian, bbc, huffingtonpost (ish). Its not trolling if I pre-text my agenda, I wasn't pulling you on a string with a surprise narrative. At least I felt I did due-diligence on my reasoning which got lost a few times, I clearly didn't do a good enough job on it, then the abuse rolled in.

 

[Osiris]

I intentionally stayed away from ridiculous sites and tried to use as much reasonably credible sources as possible, the guardian, bbc, huffingtonpost (ish). Its not trolling if I pre-text my agenda, I wasn't pulling you on a string with a surprise narrative. At least I felt I did due-diligence on my reasoning which got lost a few times, I clearly didn't do a good enough job on it, then the abuse rolled in.

You should also realize that trying to "Devils Advocate" the motivations of a fucking war that is killing people right now is fucking stupid pseudo-intellectual onanism that is offensive and best left to somewhere private, long after the fact rather than in public whilst people are dying, and that's without getting into the fact that doing so is not and cannot be detached from directly assisting those whose position you take up.

Either argue a point from a position of belief / opinion and back it up with facts from reputable sources or, to put it bluntly, shut the fuck up and fuck off.

 

[Mully]

I intentionally stayed away from ridiculous sites and tried to use as much reasonably credible sources as possible, the guardian, bbc, huffingtonpost (ish). Its not trolling if I pre-text my agenda, I wasn't pulling you on a string with a surprise narrative. At least I felt I did due-diligence on my reasoning which got lost a few times, I clearly didn't do a good enough job on it, then the abuse rolled in.

No you didn't. A number of your posts use the exact wording from GlobalResearch articles. Along with that you've made the same mistakes in your "due diligence," that many conspiracy sites have made throughout this conflict.

The posts you've made using credible sources piecemealed content from articles to create an overall narrative; not an argument, that's extremely similar to how state sponsored Russian media operates. Russian media is often used as sources at Western conspiracy sites.

There's a way to offer alternative views and then there's posting like you're from AboveTopSecret or /r/conspiracy. You do the latter.

 

[chadskin]

Interesting that Ron Paul, the only American politician with a shred of credibility when it comes to US foreign policy, has admitted the coup was US and EU backed.

Vladimir Lukin, pictured here with Putin in 2008, was the Human Rights Commissioner of Russia from February 2004 to March 2014 and was sent by Putin to Kiev as one of Russia's brokers amid the Maidan protests. He worked on the "agreement to overcome the Ukrainian crisis" which was signed by "Yanukovych, Klitshchko, Yatseniuk and Tiahnybok" on February 21st, 2014, "witnessed by representatives of the European Union – Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski and German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, as well as head of the Director for Continental Europe of the French Foreign Ministry Eric Fournier" (http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/191712.html). The agreement was meant to keep Yanukovych in power for the time being but Yanukovych instead decided to flee to Russia the following day(s).

That same Vladimir Lukin said in today's Der Spiegel issue the Maidan uprising was not a coup by Western intelligence services. Instead he said, "in Ukraine a revolutionary situation has arisen, the citizens were above all unsatisfied with their lives and the bottomless corruption".

I know who I trust more.

 

[Phantast2k]

And this is exactly why we need a Cold War 2, East vs. West thread...

So an Ukranian politician goes before parliament to reveal information that a western-backed coup, civil war and violent overthrow of power was being plotted and the very next day all hell breaks loose.

Utterly wrong. The protests began with some 2000 people and were peaceful until the police decided to use violence.

But this was just a clever ruse to discredit anticipated protests at failing to accept the EU deal? Which then amazingly took the form of a violent overthrow of power.

That's some impressive mental gymnastics. How could he have anticipated that the shit would hit the fan that badly? Occam's Razor would suggest the far likelier explanation is this guy caught wind of what was going down.

He did this before his party rejected the signing of the planed EU association agreement, but also before rejecting the jailed opposition politician Timoshenko to fly to Germany for treatment. Protests had to be expected. So he discredited them in advance.

Interesting that Ron Paul, the only American politician with a shred of credibility when it comes to US foreign policy, has admitted the coup was US and EU backed. There are also several Western academics who have said this, but their views don't get spread in the mainstream media. Also at least one head of state, the president of the Czech Republic.

No, it's not. Fuck Ron Paul.
Name the academics. The Czech president is closely aligned to Putin, just like the Hungarian head of state. Russia financed French right wing, anti-EU party FN through a Russo-FrenchCzech bank.

Also, the more information that comes out regarding the initial sniper killings the more they point away from Yanukovych.

The truth will come out eventually. It never does at the time, the media and lying politicians take care of that. But eventually it'll join this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

That's not true + protesters were murdered way before the Feb. 21st stand-off.
That list is almost meaningless without the inclusion of Soviet Union sponsored coups.

Looking forward to that Oliver Stone movie on Ukraine.

I'm sure you are.

/Vizzeh is just making the thread about himself now...

Vladimir Lukin, pictured here with Putin in 2008, was the Human Rights Commissioner of Russia from February 2004 to March 2014 and was sent by Putin to Kiev as one of Russia's brokers amid the Maidan protests. He worked on the "agreement to overcome the Ukrainian crisis" which was signed by "Yanukovych, Klitshchko, Yatseniuk and Tiahnybok" on February 21st, 2014, "witnessed by representatives of the European Union – Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski and German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, as well as head of the Director for Continental Europe of the French Foreign Ministry Eric Fournier" (http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/191712.html). The agreement was meant to keep Yanukovych in power for the time being but Yanukovych instead decided to flee to Russia the following day(s).

That same Vladimir Lukin said in today's Der Spiegel issue the Maidan uprising was not a coup by Western intelligence services. Instead he said, "in Ukraine a revolutionary situation has arisen, the citizens were above all unsatisfied with their lives and the bottomless corruption".

I know who I trust more.

Checkmate.
Thanks for the link. I should buy this Spiegel issue on Monday.

 

[Vizzeh]

You should also realize that trying to "Devils Advocate" the motivations of a fucking war that is killing people right now is fucking stupid pseudo-intellectual onanism that is offensive and best left to somewhere private, long after the fact rather than in public whilst people are dying, and that's without getting into the fact that doing so is not and cannot be detached from directly assisting those whose position you take up.

Either argue a point from a position of belief / opinion and back it up with facts from reputable sources or, to put it bluntly, shut the fuck up and fuck off.

Look man, I appreciate your opinion and realise the emotions, but don't patronize me. Iv already conceded my point.

 

[EricTheCleric]

guys

man

mate

dude


make up your mind on what kind of English you want to use

 

[SymbiantXenos]

MFA Russia account on twitter just straight up trolling now.

 

[Vizzeh]

man

mate

dude


make up your mind on what kind of English you want to use

Have you got a point, or do you want to continue attempting to mock me?

 

[EricTheCleric]

Have you got a point, or do you want to continue attempting to mock me?

I have my doubts on who you claim you are, as are others.

Iv no interest in this thread anymore, as iv stated before, im British, have absolutely no love for the Russian's, some of their views are backwards, I can't say the wealth distribution system they have is great, have no biased interest in Ukraine what-so-ever, the issue I have is the fact some people are blinkered beyond belief, to think our media (that has a monopoly and owned by an exceptionally capitalist and corporate driven economy, with Goverments financed on it) are unbiased without political agenda is scary. Suggestion, read a book, do some research on our media, completely disregarding this conflict.

The view if you are critical off our Government, your opposing it or worse its propoganda for the otherside. Because our government is never wrong, ie the wmd's in iraq, watergate, bay of pigs, Ferguson riots etc etc

Information does not take too long to cross-reference and research, you can read various alternative and fairly reliable sources and form a balanced, average opinion (I read plenty, im not going to spoon feed you with sources, pull the finger out and look) that is NOT pro-russian or pro anything. All I see here is fox-news parroting (of course there are other sources) that is similar to a Hollywood production, sad music with fear-mongering inclusive and 1 sided narration without even the consideration that there are 2 sides to a coin. I would check the fluoride levels in the water.

Lets just hope this peace lasts and this discussion becomes irrelevant until the next 1 pops up likely somewhere in the middle-east.

 

[Mully]

Wouldn't a simple who is lookup give an idea where he's from? I really don't care where he's from as long as he and the rest of the pseudo intellectuals stop posting shit articles in NEWS thread.

 

[chadskin]

maxseddon: 90 minutes to the appointed ceasefire time. Some pretty serious Grads raining down on central Donetsk, by the sounds of things.

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/566694973769519104

ASLuhn: Basurin says they've captured part of Debaltseve, no deal w/Kiev about corridor. Man wants to single-handedly kill ceasefire @MarkAmesExiled

ASLuhn: Rebels want Debaltseve. If they stop shooting Kiev can reinforce it. Therefore #ceasefire is highly doubtful. We'll see in 1.5 hours

https://twitter.com/asluhn

70 minutes now until the ceasefire is set to begin.