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[Engell]

Russian forces performed professionally in Crimea and NO ONE get killed. In East of Ukraine it was not russian forces it was bullshit, that is why thousands died.

"No one" got killed because no one resisted(there was ofc. the typical Russian Political murders, but i know this is considered normal where you come from), because the Russian presence there was to great.
This is something that all countries should learn from... Not to give up, but for the love of god don't have a large buildup of Russian troops in your country, at some point they will think it is theirs.

And I think you forget they where not wearing Russian uniforms to start with.

 

[wsippel]

In 2008 russia lost 67 dead against US-trained-and-equipped georgian troops. But here you have a sold-out soviet piece of disorganized army which is so bad that it in 2001 officially shot by mistake russian civil plane over a black sea as a training procedure and which doesn't even have warm pants as yesteday said Ukrainian minister of defense. That's one thing. The other thing is that there is no a single proof of russian army being here. None of OSCE observers reported it, neither UN reported it. Only NATO sees russian army here without being capable of showing it to others.

According to a documentary by an independent Russian journalist that aired on German TV a few days ago, the Russians fighting and dying in Ukraine are by and large not military forces. They are mostly untrained combatants and mercenaries (probably paid by Russia), and the combatants in particular die like flies. They are nothing more than cannon fodder to keep the whole thing going. The small unit said journalist accompanied was completely wiped out soon after entering Ukraine.

 

[Ryuuroden]

Russian forces were in Crimea since 1783 and never left since that, a whole marine fleet of it. Officially. When this all started it was obvious that it was russian forces who didn't let a revolution take place in Crimea the way it happened in Kiev. Russian forces performed professionally in Crimea and NO ONE get killed on any side. In East of Ukraine it was not russian forces it was bullshit, that is why thousands died.

There is more to it then that. Russia took advantage of the fact that at that time there was no organized govt in Kiev, the former leader had run off with the state treasury, etc etc. Ukraine was not remotely in a position to defend itself at that time. If it's soldiers had resisted militarily at all, they would of given Russia the excuse they needed to steal a much larger chunk of the country. Btw, semi related, if Russia is going to use the excuse that Crimea was once part of Russia then they really do need to give back the island chain they took from Japan after WWII.

 

[Outcome]

"No one" got killed because no one resisted(there was ofc. the typical Russian Political murders, but i know this is considered normal where you come from), because the Russian presence there was to great.
This is something that all countries should learn from... Not to give up, but for the love of god don't have a large buildup of Russian troops in your country, at some point they will think it is theirs.

Man, I repeat, Russian forces were never building up in Crimea. Crimea was Turkish, then in 1783 Russia conquered it (please, do not say that it was bad, because then I will rebember how many colonies British Empire conquered in that times). After that russian forces NEVER left Crimea. In 1954 Crimea was given as a present to Ukraine. But russian (soviet or moscow controlled) forces didn't go anyway. So, if, as you said, "this is something that all countries should learn from... Not to give up, but for the love of god don't" take any territorial presents from Russia, especially when there are russian forces on that territory for ages which ain't going anyway from that lands.

 

[Engell]

In 1954 Crimea was given as a present to Ukraine.

First.. lol again. Second, So you should never trust a gift from the Russians, they will take it back during the night with unmarked troops. thank you, lesson learned.

 

[EricTheCleric]

Russian forces were in Crimea since 1783 and never left since that, a whole marine fleet of it. Officially. When this all started it was obvious that it was russian forces who didn't let a revolution take place in Crimea the way it happened in Kiev. Russian forces performed professionally in Crimea and NO ONE get killed on any side. In East of Ukraine it was not russian forces it was bullshit, that is why thousands died.

thats funny since it was Russian forces that performed an armed coup in Crimea when they used armed force when they took over the parliament and other official state buildings.

And people did get killed.

 

[Outcome]

thats funny since it was Russian forces that performed an armed coup in Crimea when they used armed force when they took over the parliament and other official state buildings.

And people did get killed.

I do not see anything funny in that people get killed. I didn't know that. But if you said it so, it is gotta be a real truth for sure. I will ask you in case I need some more truth.

 

[Jackpot]

Nice timing by the UN:

The human rights situation is directly affected, the UN says, by the large amount of weapons and the foreign fighters "that include servicemen from the Russian Federation".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30126207

And the rest of the report:

A new report by the office describes a total breakdown of law and order in rebel-held Donetsk and Luhansk.

It also highlights credible allegations of abuses by government forces.

Death toll:

4,317 deaths since April, 957 of them since the 5 September ceasefire, and 9,921 people wounded

Rebels:

In its actual report, the UN refers to a "total breakdown in law and order, and a lack of any human rights protection for the population" under rebel control in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

It notes that "cases of serious human rights abuses by the armed groups continued to be reported, including torture, arbitrary and incommunicado detention, summary executions, forced labour, sexual violence, as well as the destruction and illegal seizure of property".

Such abuses, it said, "may amount to crimes against humanity".

Ukraine:

Ukrainian government forces and volunteer militias fighting the rebels have been also been accused of human rights abuses such as illegal detention, torture and ill-treatment, the report says, noting official denials.

It also calls for a full investigation into the use of cluster bombs in the conflict. The Ukrainian government was accused by Human Rights Watch last month of using such weapons in residential areas, an allegation it denied.

 

[Resident_UA]

Russian forces were in Crimea since 1783 and never left since that, a whole marine fleet of it. Officially. When this all started it was obvious that it was russian forces who didn't let a revolution take place in Crimea the way it happened in Kiev. Russian forces performed professionally in Crimea and NO ONE get killed on any side. In East of Ukraine it was not russian forces it was bullshit, that is why thousands died.

The stretches of logic here are insane. I see how Russian propaganda works now

1. How is that Russian's army's "achievement" that "no one got killed"? It's not like Ukraine gave an order to shoot and Russians managed to "contain" the threat. If anything you should be thanking Ukraine that they gave away Crimea without the fight. maybe if there was an order to shoot Ukraine would lost Crimea anyway, but there would be no way that "no one got killed".

2. Why does it matter that "no one got killed"? If China took disputed territory from Russia and "no one got killed," would you be saying that China's army is professional and those people wanted to be part of China anyway?

There's absolutely no Russian "achievement" in anything that is happening in Ukraine. There's nothing to be proud of. This is like US being proud of "winning" a war in Iraq. Ukraine giving up stuff, fighting back too late, and being CORRUPT are much bigger factors here. The only certain thing is that Russia lost Ukraine as an ally for decades.

 

[Purkake4]

I recognize that.



Ofcourse there are secret graveyards, but there aren't Thousands of graveyards. Tens is more than believable, hundreds is hardly believable, thousands of graves is Delusional.

There are reports of Russia using mobile crematoriums now, so the need for secret graveyards would be reduced quite a bit.

 

[Veritigo_X]

There are reports of Russia using mobile crematoriums now, so the need for secret graveyards would be reduced quite a bit.

Plus the many reports of trucks labeled "200" (Russian military code for personnel killed in action) traveling back and forth between Russia and Ukraine.

 

[Resident_UA]

If you understand Russian this is very insightful interview from Girkin (Strelkov). In case you had any doubts he acknowledges that he started the war, implies that he received his orders from Russia, and that Russian regular army was involved in the conflict. His "disclaimer" is that 90% of the troops that he eventually put together were locals, which could potentially be true, but does not change the fact that this conflict was started by Russia.

And in case you are wondering this is not pro-Ukraine newspaper. In fact it is very much Russian media reporting this.


http://zavtra.ru/content/view/kto-tyi-strelok/

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Maybe we should stop using blogs in this news thread then if they are going to post unsubstantiated claims that spark controversy. What do you think ThoseDeafMutes?

Sounds reasonable.

 

[Phantast2k]

Who is medium.com?

Medium is a blogging site, like an upscale tumblr or livejournal.

I apologize for posting that link. I've read about the person in a facebook post which translated a Ukrainian source (in German), so when I saw it in my twitter feed I did not vet it enough.

Here's more regarding the person:
http://www.omct.org/urgent-campaigns/urgent-interventions/russia/2009/06/d20089/

Her presence:
http://www.evasiljeva.ru/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzuTFctzTJbJlvKv7Bzf4nA
Edit: the last video in her channel is 5 years old, entitled "Reform of the army - what's the point ?" (gtranslate).

Since she appears to have been army reform / anti torture activist for years in Russia, I wouldn't simply discount her numbers (though they may still be inflated).
If you read the UNHCR report, you'll notice that the chose a careful wording for the most part when giving estimates (I have not yet read the newest one though). The number of dead Russians should be somewhere in between.

To understand how Russia / Soviet Union handles / handled dead soldiers, one has to go back to reports about human loss was handled during the Chernobyl catastrophe (where they just sent people into certain death & kept quite to the general population for a week or something), the Afghan and both Chechen wars (silence by force and now probably mostly by money).
The value of life in the Russian society is simply lower than in other countries. No quite as low as - say - in some M.E. countries where there is literal monetary amounts on people's lives (which offenders can often pay when people are killed in rural disputes or whatnot).

Also cargo 200 all over the place, even OSCE is noticing:

@BBCSteveR

OSCE says on Nov 11 van with sign 'Cargo 200' (military code for killed soldiers) crossed from Russia to Ukraine, then back few hours later.

Russian drone footage of the Donetsk airport:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4-ZWf-5h4M

OSCE reports about being shot at by what appear to be Ukrainian troops (two white stripes). Though they do not blame anyone directly and it may very well be a provocation too. Since every incident of obstruction of their work (that I am aware of) has so far been by the separatists (like when they took them hostage or jammed their drones' gps).

Correction: 15km W of Donetsk

Military personnel shoot in the direction of an OSCE convoy near government-controlled Mariinka (15km W of Donetsk).

12:38hrs, an OSCE convoy composed of two vehicles was travelling east from Kurakhovo (30km W of Donetsk) towards the city of Donetsk.

Near the area of Mariinka, about 80m ahead of the convoy, there was a flat-bed cargo truck carrying a large green wooden box, with two uniformed personnel on board wearing helmets. The SMM observed tactical marks of two white vertical lines on the tail-gate of the vehicle and on the passenger door.

One of the soldiers stood up and fired two shots in the direction of the OSCE convoy. The bullets struck about 2m from the second OSCE vehicle. The SMM staff travelling in this vehicle heard sharp sounds originating from road or bullet fragments impacting on their car. Due to security concerns, the SMM left the area immediately.

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/126926


Strelkov aka. Girkin interviews

If you understand Russian this is very insightful interview from Girkin (Strelkov). In case you had any doubts he acknowledges that he started the war, implies that he received his orders from Russia, and that Russian regular army was involved in the conflict. His "disclaimer" is that 90% of the troops that he eventually put together were locals, which could potentially be true, but does not change the fact that this conflict was started by Russia.

And in case you are wondering this is not pro-Ukraine newspaper. In fact it is very much Russian media reporting this.


http://zavtra.ru/content/view/kto-tyi-strelok/

Indeed and it's not just some Russian newspaper (info on the editor-in-chief):

Alexander Andreyevich Prokhanov is a Soviet and Russian writer. He is a member of the secretariat of the Writers Union of the Russian Federation and the editor-in-chief of Russia's extreme-right newspaper "Завтра" (Zavtra - Tomorrow), that combines ultranationalist and communist views.

Here is a journalist talking about the interview:

@maxseddon

Strelkov says Russian soldiers led the decisive counter-attack against Ukraine, but had orders not to take Mariupol. http://t.co/hvcA8X7A6D

He also gave a different interview before that in which he said:

@OS1954

#Strelkov says #Ukraine aid and that of Akhmetov reaches needy in #Donbas, bigger Russian aid is sold at markets. http://t.co/wTSNE3D9vh

And to which he

@GalustovMikhail

....wore a concealable bulletproof vest to a newspaper interview in Moscow: http://instagram.com/p/vfsisuvNAW/?modal=true

I hope someone will translate both of them.


Talk of lethal U.S. military aid to Ukraine

US Should Consider Lethal Aid to Ukraine, Says Obama Nominee

U.S. President Barack Obama's nominee to fill the number two post at the State Department says the White House should consider providing Ukraine with lethal, defensive military equipment.

Testifying Wednesday before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Tony Blinken said that arming Ukraine's military could force Russia to rethink its role in the conflict gripping eastern Ukraine. ...

Op-Ed. Why the U.S. has an obligation to help Ukraine defend itself - LA Times

With Russian tanks and other military equipment rolling into Ukraine, Kiev is learning the hard way that when you reside in a nasty neighborhood it doesn't pay to get rid of nuclear weapons without ironclad security guarantees. But that is exactly what it did in December 1994 when it agreed to the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances co-signed by the United States, Russia and the United Kingdom.
....

The bill that's in limbo right now:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/5190/text

the following defense
articles, services, and training:
(1) Weapons and ammunition, as identified in such
assessment.
(2) Night navigation equipment.
(3) Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles.
(4) High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles.
(5) Inflatable boats.
(6) Body armor.
(7) Fire control, range finder, optical and guidance and
control equipment.
(8) Explosive disposal and improvised explosive device
detection equipment.
(9) Mine detection equipment.
(10) Chemical, biological, radiation, and nuclear
detection, testing, and protection equipment.
(11) Communications, logistic, combat support, medical
equipment, rations, specialized equipment, and other defense
articles, services, and training requested by the Government of
Ukraine that the President determines to be appropriate.

Imho especially the Javelin could turn the tide rather quickly and become what Stinger MANPADs were in the Afghanistan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovxz1_hPJKQ

Russian response:

@SputnikInt

#US delivery of lethal weapons to #Ukraine would breach Geneva Agreements – Russian Foreign Ministry

Hypocrisy²

Interesting report by a consulting firm on the arms used in the conflict:
http://armamentresearch.com/Uploads/Research Report No. 3 - Raising Red Flags.pdf

 

[Engell]

Sounds reasonable.

Not really.. a lot of good information have come from blogs, usually with pictures to back up their stories.

Factual information regarding the BUK that shot down MH17.
Actual evidence that the story that a lot of media outlets ran was basically false
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/11/rocket-that-hit-school-no63-did-not.html
Reports from local Russian media outlets and their propaganda, also exposing that the russian bragged about shooting down a plane, that turned out to be MH17.
Showing tons of pictures of all the Russian military hardware that randomly ended up in Ukriane.
Blogs have helped to show that many report from Russia where fake or false, not by just saying "it is wrong" just like this.
www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=933121

There is a lot of this that is very very well documented, better than i have seen any serious media outlet do, they usually just parrot some newsletter, without providing pictures or documentation, or on the TV news have some dumb blonde read it aloud, while she smiles(disclaimer.. not all blondes are stupid).

I think it would be a big mistake to say that evidence and reports written by people not associated with an "official" news outlet should be disregarded.

 

[TarNaru33]

I think it would be a big mistake to say that evidence and reports written by people not associated with an "official" news outlet should be disregarded.

I agree with this in all honesty.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Alright, but please flag your links as being blog posts from now on if they are.

 

[freddy]

So its a free for all then on blogs from both sides? That's awesome.

 

[freddy]

http://www.alternet.org/world/how-israel-lobby-protected-ukrainian-neo-nazis

AlterNet has learned that an amendment to the 2015 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) that would have forbidden US assistance, training and weapons to neo-Nazis and other extremists in Ukraine was kept out of the final bill by the Republican-led House Rules Committee. Introduced by Democratic Representative John Conyers, the amendment was intended to help tamp down on violent confrontations between Ukrainian forces and Russian separatists. (Full text of the amendment embedded at the end of this article).

This is a blog.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I await the Slavyangrad and GlobalResearch links in response to pieces by Bellingcat et al.

Something both sides something

 

[Engell]

So its a free for all then on blogs from both sides? That's awesome.

So you deny that the links i posted have actual credible well documented information?
One of them is just GAF itself.(is that better than a blog)

No it is not a free for all, just make sure that the information is credible no matter where its from.

 

[freddy]

So you deny that the links i posted have actual credible well documented information?
One of them is just GAF itself.(is that better than a blog)

No it is not a free for all, just make sure that the information is credible no matter where its from.

Credible to who? 4000 Russian soldiers credible or "just some" Russian soldiers credible. If you want to make the news thread a farce then it has to be a farce.

 

[freddy]

I await the Slavyangrad and GlobalResearch links in response to pieces by Bellingcat et al.

Something both sides something

Yea I was going to post a global research article but it didn't pass the credibility test. Maybe next time.

 

[Engell]

Credible to who? 4000 Russian soldiers credible or "just some" Russian soldiers credible. If you want to make the news thread a farce then it has to be a farce.

I didn't post a link to anything with soldiers?? I am going to stop responding to your trolling.

 

[Oblong Schlong]

Wave of reports coming in that Ukrainian infantry forces have summarily executed suspected Russian sympathizers in contested Eastern territories. Right Sector figures seen orchestrating, but very little media is making it out past the censor thugs. The people are scared.

I'm just making this up right now but I should be able to launch my blog soon. In the name of credibility, is it okay if my blog uses this post as a primary source?

 

[freddy]

I didn't post a link to anything with soldiers?? I am going to stop responding to your trolling.

I never said you posted. The discussion started because someone posted a blog which they apologised for but you defended. I thought you were following along.

Wave of reports coming in that Ukrainian infantry forces have summarily executed suspected Russian sympathizers in contested Eastern territories. Right Sector figures seen orchestrating, but very little media is making it out past the censor thugs. The people are scared.

I'm just making this up right now but I should be able to launch my blog soon. In the name of credibility, is it okay if my blog uses this post as a primary source?

Yes, because you get to decide what's credible or not.

 

[maharg]

I apologize for posting that link. I've read about the person in a facebook post which translated a Ukrainian source (in German), so when I saw it in my twitter feed I did not vet it enough.

To be clear, I didn't point that out because I thought posts from blogs shouldn't be posted -- and medium being an aggregate blogging platform means that the source of the post itself rather than the site is what should be considered when thinking about credibility.

Quite the contrary, I think limiting things to established news sources is probably a backwards approach, because of the tendency of established news sources to take official statements at face value, but people should be aware of what's what.

 

[freddy]

Quite the contrary, I think limiting things to established news sources is probably a backwards approach, because of the tendency of established news sources to take official statements at face value, but people should be aware of what's what.

I actually agree with this. NeoGAFs rule has always been that you're allowed to post as long as you back up your opinion in a reasonable manner. It's always worked as long as the rule applies to everyone. I just don't think this has been the case lately. If fair rules were applied to all then it wouldn't be a problem at all.

 

[CrunchyB]

Man, I repeat, Russian forces were never building up in Crimea. Crimea was Turkish, then in 1783 Russia conquered it (please, do not say that it was bad, because then I will rebember how many colonies British Empire conquered in that times). After that russian forces NEVER left Crimea. In 1954 Crimea was given as a present to Ukraine. But russian (soviet or moscow controlled) forces didn't go anyway

Of course the Whites and not the Bolsheviks held Crimea during the civil war. They made their final stand there. So Moscow or "Soviets" did not rule Crimea during that time, it was another tribe of Russians (or Ukrainians).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Crimea

Approximately 50,000 White prisoners of war and civilians were summarily executed by shooting or hanging after the defeat of General Wrangel at the end of 1920.[21] This is considered one of the largest massacres in the Civil War.

Then there's also WW2, when it was conquered by the Nazi's. So "Moscow" lost control of Crimea twice, actually (both times reconquering it) before gifting it to Ukraine. Not that it matters all that much.

 

[EricTheCleric]

Wave of reports coming in that Ukrainian infantry forces have summarily executed suspected Russian sympathizers in contested Eastern territories. Right Sector figures seen orchestrating, but very little media is making it out past the censor thugs. The people are scared.

I'm just making this up right now but I should be able to launch my blog soon. In the name of credibility, is it okay if my blog uses this post as a primary source?

that is a almost word by word retelling of how RT reports from eastern Ukraine and they are a "news" channel....

this was later reported both live and in news bits on the english television channel and streaming video of RT and never proven nor followed up

If you understand Russian this is very insightful interview from Girkin (Strelkov). In case you had any doubts he acknowledges that he started the war, implies that he received his orders from Russia, and that Russian regular army was involved in the conflict. His "disclaimer" is that 90% of the troops that he eventually put together were locals, which could potentially be true, but does not change the fact that this conflict was started by Russia.

And in case you are wondering this is not pro-Ukraine newspaper. In fact it is very much Russian media reporting this.


http://zavtra.ru/content/view/kto-tyi-strelok/

look who else has worked at Zavtra...

 

[Outcome]

The stretches of logic here are insane. I see how Russian propaganda works now

I can say the same about Ukraine or West propaganda. It doesn't matter. Everybody can have an opinion. I'm not basing my opinion on russian government channels if you meant it.

1. How is that Russian's army's "achievement" that "no one got killed"? It's not like Ukraine gave an order to shoot and Russians managed to "contain" the threat. If anything you should be thanking Ukraine that they gave away Crimea without the fight. maybe if there was an order to shoot Ukraine would lost Crimea anyway, but there would be no way that "no one got killed".

Neither my nor yours opinion can be proved right now. We do not know for sure who is to be thanked for that there were no blood in Crimea. There might was an order to shoot and russian forces might had talked (made/threatened) Ukrainian forces to not obey. As you said "maybe if there was an order to shoot Ukraine would lost Crimea anyway", so, may be russian forces managed to explain it to ukrainians that blood would be for nothing. I guess in 20-30 years from now we may heard true stories.

2. Why does it matter that "no one got killed"? If China took disputed territory from Russia and "no one got killed," would you be saying that China's army is professional and those people wanted to be part of China anyway?

I was opposing Crimea scenario to East scenario in terms of how russian forces worked and how separatists screwed up. First - no blood. Second - more than 4k people already dead and that's "only" official numbers by UN. In other word, if East would had been occupied quickly by professional russian forces and ukrainians just, let's say "got scared to resist", then a lot of families would had been alive if that means anything to anyone in this world now. I'm NOT saying attacking East is good and that it is what russia should had done. I my opinion russia should either had let go East or should had taken it like Crimea. In both scenarios thousands mere citizens would had been alive by now.

There's absolutely no Russian "achievement" in anything that is happening in Ukraine. There's nothing to be proud of. This is like US being proud of "winning" a war in Iraq. Ukraine giving up stuff, fighting back too late, and being CORRUPT are much bigger factors here. The only certain thing is that Russia lost Ukraine as an ally for decades.

I was never saying Russia should be proud of something. As I said in this thread Putin did a bad job about Ukraine that led to these events. I mean, if Putin was concerned about russian fleet in Crimea so much he should prevent all this stuff by working with Ukrainian government and opposition as close as US which was sanding their senators to maidan revolution (McCain on maidan squire). Putin lost influence on Ukraine and opted for force. Though, there a certain probability that Putin was initially wanting to get Crimea back and somehow facilitated (by cooperating with former president) all this revolution in order to have at least some excuse for annexing Crimea. That may sound crazy but I think it was physically possible.

 

[Kabouter]

I was opposing Crimea scenario to East scenario in terms of how russian forces worked and how separatists screwed up. First - no blood. Second - more than 4k people already dead and that's "only" official numbers by UN. In other word, if East would had been occupied quickly by professional russian forces and ukrainians just, let's say "got scared to resist", then a lot of families would had been alive if that means anything to anyone in this world now. I'm NOT saying attacking East is good and that it is what russia should had done. I my opinion russia should either had let go East or should had taken it like Crimea. In both scenarios thousands mere citizens would had been alive by now.

I don't like the or there. In what world are we treating seizing land from a weaker neighbouring sovereign nation because you want it as a perfectly legitimate thing? How about Russia just sticks to its own borders and doesn't arbitrarily take land from other countries?

 

[Kathian]

It is absolutely correct to say Putin failed in Ukraine. He pushed too hard and there was a revolution. He is now fighting those revolutionarys I suspect to tie the Western Ukrainian Government into an agreement that gives Russia sme sovereignty.

 

[pants]

No it is not a free for all, just make sure that the information is credible no matter where its from.

I've lurked this thread for a very,very long time now. Little posted in here is verifiable.

 

[Resident_UA]

if East would had been occupied quickly by professional russian forces and ukrainians just, let's say "got scared to resist"

That's absolutely not true. You greatly underestimate how much Ukrainians hate Russia right now. I know people who would go to Donetsk and try to fight Russian tanks with forks if Russia officially invaded Ukraine. A lot more people would die. Hundreds of thousands... Plus if you read Girkin interview that I posted on this page it is pretty clear that Russian army acted in similar way in Donetsk as in Crimea and somehow it didn't work out quite the same.

Also when I say that people would die if Ukraine gave an order to shoot it is not an "opinion".By definition if there's an order to shoot something will be shot at. People would die (either the ones shooting or the ones shot at).

That's why I keep saying that Russian propaganda greatly influences how you think. For some reason you think that it is impossible to know what would happen if Ukraine gave an order to shoot in Crimea. Why is it impossible? Just forget about everything you know about Ukraine or Russia and think of a random scenario. Imagine there's a French Army base surrounded with a number of people with guns. French government gives an order to shoot, what are the chances that no one dies?

 

[Resident_UA]

look who else has worked at Zavtra...

I just read this again and thought about this for a while... This is just insane. Forget the fact that he worked for that newspaper. A guy who handled investigation of apartment bombings in Russia became "Deputy Prime Minister" of Donetsk!!!

This is crazy for many reasons:
1. Those bombings were highly controversial. There were a lot of conspiracy theories suggesting that these were organized by FSB in a first place.
2. Why doesn't FSB even care that their "former" employees OPENLY decided to became "politicians" in a foreign country. Especially a kind of employee with such a rich history...
3. It seems like Putin sent his best men to handle Donetsk. If you read Girkin's interview you can see that there were similar scenarios planned for Odessa and Kharkiv. I wonder who was supposed to handle those. What happened to those agents.
4. How can anyone believe that this whole thing was not organized by FSB now?
5. Is Putin even in control or is he just FSB puppet?
6. Just thinking about this gives me a headache. This would make a great season of Homeland. Sucks that it is happening in real life...

EDIT: Everyone should read about the bombings and the chain of events that occurred after after numerous attempts for an independent investigations. I'm shocked that this is actually tied to the events in Ukraine through Borodai...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings

 

[Engell]

US delivers 3 counter-mortar radar systems to Ukraine.

The radar systems are the first few of 20 that Washington plans to send to Ukraine during the next several weeks. In mid-December, US military instructors plan to start training Ukrainian armed forces.
“The radar systems see incoming mortar fire and quickly calculate the point of origin of a mortar round fired by the enemy, and allows friendly forces to react appropriately,”

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/761117

 

[ICKE]

I am so tired of these propaganda wars. A Finnish reporter was not allowed to examine the local day-care center in Donetsk, because apparently Finland confiscates Russian children from their mothers. It was shown on the local TV channels so it has to be true.

Then again I wouldn't allow "officials" from the people's republic of Donetsk anywhere near our borders, let alone playgrounds, so I suppose that works both ways.

 

[EricTheCleric]

I am so tired of these propaganda wars. A Finnish reporter was not allowed to examine the local day-care center in Donetsk, because apparently Finland confiscates Russian children from their mothers. It was shown on the local TV channels so it has to be true.

what?

this increase in vilifying propaganda against the Baltics and Finland is disturbing and sets a bad precedence for what might be planned in the future

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Uhh, can anyone piece together what Russia's endgame is at this point? The only thing they've accomplished is destroying Ukraine's economy and their own and nothing else is happening beside economic breakdown.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Uhh, can anyone piece together what Russia's endgame is at this point? The only thing they've accomplished is destroying Ukraine's economy and their own and nothing else is happening beside economic breakdown.

Wrecking Ukraine and sending a message to both its neighbours and the West.

 

[Veritigo_X]

More talks about Ukraine joining NATO. Poroshenko has said that they will hold a referendum on joining NATO and has already "worked out the criteria".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30176256

This news comes after Kremlin official Dmitri Peskov wanted "a 100% guarantee that no-one would think about Ukraine joining Nato". Adding that the gradual approach towards Russia has made them "nervous".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30107520

Who knows if NATO will actually accept them with an ongoing conflict going on in their borders, but they've had their eyes on Ukraine for awhile now.

 

[glaurung]

Uhh, can anyone piece together what Russia's endgame is at this point? The only thing they've accomplished is destroying Ukraine's economy and their own and nothing else is happening beside economic breakdown.

Keep going at any cost, keeping the lies going for as long as possible.

And they will, unless something happens in Russia - civil uprising, a coup or an otherwise total change in the regime. But I expect Putin will also have to turn on his faithful cronies and oligarchs. Right now I would not be surprised if Putin's methods for keeping his friends in check would not extend to something similar to North Korea.

 

[EricTheCleric]

Russia is preparing opinions both domestically and internationally for an "intervention" in Ukraine.

They need to stop "Nazism" to spread. Things are looking really bad.

earlier today:
Link to RT does not work, I understand why but one needs to read propaganda sites to understand what is up
title of the news: Ukrainian neo-Nazism threatens to spread across Europe – Russian diplomat

now on the swedish voice of russia:
http://swedish.ruvr.ru/2014_11_24/Varlden-har-forandrats-och-Ryssland-forsitter-inte-sin-chans-8491/
"World has changed and Russia will not pass on this opportunity"

http://swedish.ruvr.ru/news/2014_11...zism-leder-till-dess-spridning-i-Europa-5289/
"Lack of reaction against nazis in Ukraine will lead to Nazism spreading all over Europe"

Russia proposed a resolution against nazism in the UN and will now use it for their own political (military) purposes. Here you can read about the resolution that Russia are now using in their propaganda to prepare for something big. http://t.co/n8A0vp4GCS

 

[Engell]

Belingcat presents some of his evidence and how he used social media and other internet services to put the pieces together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=flCqN8_0cX4

 

[Purkake4]

Belingcat presents some of his evidence and how he used social media and other internet services to put the pieces together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=flCqN8_0cX4

Awesome! The social media aspect is really interesting here.

 

[Outcome]

From the interview by businessinsider.com of Nov. 14, 2014 with Jim Rogers:

HB: And you say that even given Russian President Vladimir Putin and his aggressiveness?
JR: It sounds like you have been reading American propaganda too much. This all started with America, with that diplomat in Washington [Victoria Nuland, the Asst. Secretary of State]; they have her on tape. We were the ones who were very aggressive. We're the ones who said, 'We're going to overthrow this government, we don't like this government, even though it was elected. They are fools and we don't like them, so we're going to get rid of them.' We were the aggressive ones. Crimea has been part of Russia for centuries. If it weren't for [Nikita] Khrushchev getting drunk one night, it would still have been part of Russia. That election was in process, anyway. Everybody would rather be part of Russia than Ukraine. Ukraine is one of the worst-managed countries I've ever seen. Of course people want to get out of Ukraine. You would, too. It's a disaster. And Russia has been much more prosperous.

I like this man.

 

[Resident_UA]

Everybody would rather be part of Russia than Ukraine. Ukraine is one of the worst-managed countries I've ever seen. Of course people want to get out of Ukraine. You would, too. It's a disaster. And Russia has been much more prosperous.

WOW. That's really low of you. Now you just posting quotes from people that just shit on Ukraine? I get that you don't like Ukraine, but this is just an opinion of a person that has never been to Russia or Ukraine (or even if he has been it was a huge city). How is this relevant to anything? What makes him an expert on Russia or Ukraine?

 

[Outcome]

WOW. That's really low of you. Now you just posting quotes from people that just shit on Ukraine? I get that you don't like Ukraine, but this is just an opinion of a person that has never been to Russia or Ukraine (or even if he has been it was a huge city). How is this relevant to anything? What makes him an expert on Russia or Ukraine?

I liked what he said about US. A little bit of truth from a US citizen is what I like. As to him being an expert or something, he invested his own dollars into russia, I don't think he made it under the influence of russian propaganda. And he didn't shit on Ukraine. He has said how bad things are in Ukraine. You don't agree with him? You think he better invest his money into Ukraine?

 

[Engell]

That election was in process, anyway. Everybody would rather be part of Russia than Ukraine. Ukraine is one of the worst-managed countries I've ever seen. Of course people want to get out of Ukraine..

Also, isn't he contradicting himself? So the former pro Russian government is apparently responsible for "one of the worst-managed countries I've ever seen". So no wonder the people of Ukraine got pissed about their plans.
And this "Everybody would rather be part of Russia than Ukraine." if you believe in this, in any way, you are a disturbed person indeed. (I can only assume this is the case since you post this)