ThoseDeafMutes
Member
If not intervention, I hope the rest of the world wakes up to this and takes strong diplomatic measures in response.
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Ukrainian Conflict - Donetsk Boogaloo
- Thread starter Salvadora
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If not intervention, I hope the rest of the world wakes up to this and takes strong diplomatic measures in response.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Oh, so this is how World War III starts. I admit I was not predicting this would be how, but then again WWI started with a guy getting shot in Sarajevo.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Chill out man. No one's starting shit.
BigWeather
Member
Sadly the U.S. won't do anything. Spineless.
maquiladora
Member
.
The interim government in Ukraine has done the right thing so far though. These provocations from the Russian side are dangerous in the sense that any action from Ukraine would probably mean full military intervention in Crimea and at that point full sovereignty goes out the window - completely different to simple air space violations, crazy militias and what not.
Ovek
7Member7
Shits gonna go down hard when China finally gets around to claiming the Senkaku Islands, the surrounding territorial waters and air space. And by shit going down I of course mean the nothing at all.
Indeed.
Sadly the 7 Pipelines that connect Russia to Europe that run through the Ukraine probably means Europe won't be willing to say much. Russia has Europe by the throat with those pipelines.
One of the reasons why it was so important for America to make a strong stand because there isn't a we will just kill the pipelines option.
This situation has the long term effect of perhaps showing China what they can expect if they decide to take senkaku by force etc. Sets dangerous precedents
Russia is. China is. Fuck them.
Don't expect much, not when Russia provides nearly 40% of all the natural gas and oil imports into the European Union, and through Ukraine. Russia isn't part of the WTO, and imposing other kinds of restrictions such as travel on politicians, finance and banking sector restrictions, will probably be met with higher prices for oil and gas. Obviously there could be economic repercussions, but at the end of the day, Germany, France, Italy care about their country and economy rather than Ukraine or the Crimea. Will be interesting to see how it plays out and you know China, India and others are watching to see what happens.
kittenbreath
Member
It's amazing how many people seem to be under the impression that Obama's statement is aimed at Russia. Public statements issued by American presidents on American media are aimed at American citizens.
This statement was intended as a first act of agenda setting - making Americans aware of the situation (since I imagine most aren't) and prepping the public to expect further actions.
Sickboy007
Member
It sucks for the Ukrainians, but a spartition of the russophile regions would probably be the more sensible solution to this mess.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
People on here are hilarious. They rail on the guy for daring to do something in Syria now they call him a pussy because he's not acting against Putin.
Quiet! Obama is spineless!
My magic 8 ball says "insignificant"
Whatever you may think, Putin is not stupid. He's perfectly aware that escalation is in nobody's interest.
Ovek
7Member7
And there are ways of dong that, the Georgia government however decided the best way of doing that was to start shelling towns full of civilians... Sooo yeah...
Russia joined WTO in 2012, not that it's relevant in this case.
Prior President's have had no issue having a bit of fire in their speech even when it was directed at Americans. Fire is good in these situations. Though I don't think anyone would believe it from Obama.
BigWeather
Member
For the record, I think we should have intervened in Syria as well. And Rwanda in the 90s (one of the most shameful acts of non-intervention in U.S. history).
Unknown Soldier
Member
What exactly do you want the US to do, start a war with Russia over Crimea? Putin knows what he is doing, he knows the US is unwilling to start World War III and the EU is weak so he can do whatever the hell he wants.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
You have been playing both sides for years now. Every thread like this you're either saying he's doing too much then you say he does too little the next thread.
Ah my mistake, I didn't see that it happened, I know Russia has been wanting entry for a while, but was denied. Thanks for the correction.
Turkey should just lock down Russia's access to the Mediterranean sea (of course will that never happen for a ton of good reasons)
Fenderputty
Banned
While I'm happy everything turned out the way it did, Russia had plenty of ulterior motives that had nothing to do with peace and everything to do with natural gas and oil.
You are right. I opposed his actions with Syria. the US was arming and aiding Militant Jihadists. That is not something that would ever benefit America. We armed militant Jihadists in the 80s and that worked out real well for us.
BigWeather
Member
Economic sanctions against Russia, full support of the EU and NATO in what they decide to do, offer to help alleviate any fuel shortages should Putin try that crap, that sort of thing. Not start a war.
Edit: Strip Russia of MFN status.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Oh I know Putin is not stupid. In fact quite the opposite, what he is doing here is very clever. He is escalating in a way that cannot be easily responded to without provoking a war. He is very good at this, having practiced on Chechnya and Abkhazia/South Ossetia before starting here.
Yes, because Stalin deported them in '44 and half their population died in exile. That's probably why they would resent Russians taking their land again.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Predicting what guys like antonz want is like trying to predict the lottery. It's literally double talk when it comes to what Obama does and does not do.
World: "WTF USA why are you just sitting around watching this happen? Do something!"
USA: "Okay."
World: "WTF USA mind your own business!"
BigWeather
Member
Yeah, of course not. The US does, however, have options start of starting a war over it. They just won't do it.
This is all just screaming Czechoslovakia.
maquiladora
Member
So far Ukraine has been totally restrained to what Russia has done today in Crimea.
But if this is true then that restraint could be tested to breaking point in the coming hours.
If this happens, and Ukrainian forces fight back then this could well be used as a pretext for the Russian forces now deployed inside Crimea to engage the Ukrainain forces there.
If will be difficult, but the smartest thing to do would be for the Ukrainian forces in Crimea to surrender. Any resistance will be spun as aggression justifying whatever Russia does for long enough to achive whatever goals they have.
But if this is true then that restraint could be tested to breaking point in the coming hours.
If this happens, and Ukrainian forces fight back then this could well be used as a pretext for the Russian forces now deployed inside Crimea to engage the Ukrainain forces there.
If will be difficult, but the smartest thing to do would be for the Ukrainian forces in Crimea to surrender. Any resistance will be spun as aggression justifying whatever Russia does for long enough to achive whatever goals they have.
problem is, there is no one else.
exaaaaactly
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I don't think I would call them provocations, they literally deployed military formations to seize airports in Ukrainian territory. Of course this is a play straight out of the memoirs of Adolf, do all sorts of ridiculous and unacceptable things, then if anybody else dare responds to it, say that the war is their fault, and they started it.
Forsete
Member
Just in case anyone is wondering :
The Russian army has been entirely restructured after the conflict in Georgia. They now have the brigade as the key unit. There has been a reduction in the number of officers, they have phased out conscription and moved towards a more professional model.
As far as material reforms go, there is the ongoing SAP (state armaments programme), budget is around 23-25 trillion roubles which is close to 800 billion dollars.
All the war games during last autumn such as Zapad-2013 which included a simulated bombing on Lithuania, Poland and Sweden, are just a manifestation of the modernization and growing strength of the Russian army. The difference to USA is that there are less checks and balances...and quite a lot of politicians and generals who want to restore the old way of handling things.
The Russian army has been entirely restructured after the conflict in Georgia. They now have the brigade as the key unit. There has been a reduction in the number of officers, they have phased out conscription and moved towards a more professional model.
As far as material reforms go, there is the ongoing SAP (state armaments programme), budget is around 23-25 trillion roubles which is close to 800 billion dollars.
All the war games during last autumn such as Zapad-2013 which included a simulated bombing on Lithuania, Poland and Sweden, are just a manifestation of the modernization and growing strength of the Russian army. The difference to USA is that there are less checks and balances...and quite a lot of politicians and generals who want to restore the old way of handling things.
You are welcome to keep jumping on me as if I have not made my position clear but I think anyone can see the difference between arming jihadists in a civil war where the majority support the leader and Russia invading another nation
indeed
malingenie
Member
Constantly
Ukrainian should not bother trying to fight Russia forces. They are just going to lose and give Russia an excuse so they can horde territory. Their best option is to cry like a baby, and hope, economic sanctions can sway Russia long term. But, given the EU depends on so much of Russian energy, I can't imagine the sanctions remotely tough enough. And, good luck with any UN resolution.
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