maquiladora
Member
Russia has already invaded and taken complete control of Crimea. I presume you mean expand the invasion into further regions of Ukraine?
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Ukrainian Conflict - Donetsk Boogaloo
- Thread starter Salvadora
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Russia has already invaded and taken complete control of Crimea. I presume you mean expand the invasion into further regions of Ukraine?
Sqrt_minus_one
Member
Exactly
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
The Tea Party came into being contemporaneous with Pres. Obama taking office didn't it? Also consider this:
http://theweek.com/article/index/249551/how-the-tea-party-became-an-anti-war-movement
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
There are already huge stories at financial sites about the damage a conflict like this could do to world economies. It actually does have meaning.
Again, it is not on the same level as what the people themselves are going through. But to say it doesn't have "any meaning" is ludicrous. We're at a point in earth's history where nearly every conflict creates a ripple worldwide.
CyclopsRock
Member
It's entirely important context, though, because it helps explain why the things that are happening (or not happening) are happening. This isn't just about boots on the grounds and crude casualty calculations - with energy products being such a massive export from Russia, the "cost of gas" is basically just a proxy for this incredibly significant variable in the pie. $4 for gas rather than $3.50 isn't really the point - it's that things in much of the world will start getting more expensive, which has huge repercussions on what options are considered viable re: responses from the west.
I thought about this to. Create a military buffer zone in the middle of Ukraine. Let Russia take Eastern Ukraine. Those people are their problem now. Fast track Western Ukraine to integrate with NATO and the EU. Finalize any economic agreement between Ukraine and the EU, sign a new security pact with West Ukraine. It will be like the Cold War all over again, but I think this will benefit both sides. Kiev will hate splitting its country, but it cannot control East Ukraine.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I severly doubt that anybody in Crimea at any point was scared and feared genocide.
Weak, weak, weak. I understand the West has to do something, but these actions don't matter to the Kremlin. The West needs to show Russia they can play the same ball game.
TacticalFox88
Banned
A theoretical West Ukraine would be in bad shape financially.
Ukraine can join the EU in perhaps 10 years, if not later. The western Ukraine is so poor, who will pay this adventure? Ukraine is a failed state without his eastern territories.
SporeCrawler
Member
bu... but but that would be intervention. oh wait this is international politics of the 21st century we are talking about. its all good.
EU is primarily a organization that should keep peace within europe not an organization driven by financial calculations of certain nations and banks. yes it will cost th EU but a full out war on the european continent will cost much more moneywise and also in terms of peoples lives (not only ukrainians).
jakonovski
Member
Oh you guys and your zany armchair general plans.
bonesmccoy
Banned
The sad thing is that there's a reason to do it this time. UK and US signed a deal guaranteeing that they would protect Ukrainian sovereignty when Ukraine gave up the nukes
It's not legally binding, so it's really not much more than a fancy pinky-shake.
So Canada and Britain, at least for now, out of the G8 Summit?
Psychotext
Member
Looking at what's actually been said, it seems that they're out of the "preparations" for the G8. Seems meaningless.
Sqrt_minus_one
Member
What do you want them to do, million Dollar question?
Perhaps push for police action to deploy troops / police in western Ukraine to ensure Russia does not invade under the pretense of keeping peace? Best you can do at the moment and then negotiate with Moscow / Crimea to unify country but I doubt the Russians will want to hear any of it.
Perhaps push for police action to deploy troops / police in western Ukraine to ensure Russia does not invade under the pretense of keeping peace? Best you can do at the moment and then negotiate with Moscow / Crimea to unify country but I doubt the Russians will want to hear any of it.
Spain, Portugal, Greece and France are almost bankrupt and many right-wing populism will win the EU election in May, nothing will happen.
Bulgaria and Romania joined the EU around 10 years ago and are still a paradise for corruption and nepotism (and criminal tourism to austria/germany)
Nikodemos
Member
That's diplo-speak. "Preparations" are essential for holding the summit, so by dropping out of them they're basically abandoning the summit.
gutter_trash
Banned
Harper has a black-n-white vision of the world. the word nuance doesn't exist in his vocabulary
Are you ready to volunteer in the army?
bonesmccoy
Banned
Harper, Trudeau, Mulcair - it doesn't matter who the PM is, they'd all do the exact same thing. When it comes to foreign policy in that region, there's precious little we can do outside of fall in line with our allies' strategies.
How?
Nikodemos
Member
Militarily? Hells no, it would be just what Putin wants.
Economically? Fuck yeah. Hit them where it hurts, the most, their wallets.
EU can't do shit, totally reliant on Russian gas.
gutter_trash
Banned
notice that Harper and Baird usually use stronger language than Obama does
PhoenixDark
Banned
What do you think he should do? I'm tired of this vague "Obama should do something" stuff.
maquiladora
Member
Russia has veto power at the UN so any UN moves are impossible.
The EU does not have any mutual security framework and there isn't a single country in the EU that would want to get into a conflict with the largest country on the planet over Ukraine anyway.
BigWeather
Member
About 33% for oil, 40% for gas. Winter is over, so the whole "how will we heat our homes?!" argument is gone. EU will do fine -- it'll hurt, possibly lead to a recession, but it will cripple Russia economically. In the long term it'd be better for the EU anyhow to really start weaning themselves off of Russia's oil and gas.
Ultimately Russia is in a bad spot -- other than their natural resources they haven't had much luck building a robust diversified economy these last 20 years, they have demographics working against them, and neighbors that increasingly don't trust them. This will end as the Cold War did -- with economic reality forcing a change in their behavior or economic hardship leading the people internally to force the leadership to change their behavior.
Jex
Member
Clearly by going to war with Russia over Ukraine. Simple, really!
jumping to conclusions aren't we?
Putin is a master at the game what he's doing here is what he's been doing since the beginning of the Syrian conflict: testing Obama's talk vs consequences and challenging American Exceptionalism. We need to stop threatening consequences and setting lines if we aren't going to enforce them, Putin knows that there won't be any major consequences put in to effect.
Putin's main concern which is reasonable is Russian energy dependence and business. All of Russia's number one export, gas, go through Ukraine. The political instability in the Ukraine in the last few weeks have strained export manifests by 50%.
Russia's ties to Gazprom is undeniably their number one economic backbone, protection of this company is essential to the Russian economy staying afloat.
Russia is an economic partner for the EU, especially for Germany. The EU is no political union, so each one will go his own way. The same was in iraq, lybia and syria.
Nord (finished) & South Stream
pants
Member
The sad thing is that there's a reason to do it this time. UK and US signed a deal guaranteeing that they would protect Ukrainian sovereignty when Ukraine gave up the nukes
Kinda send a message that nukes are good.
Didnt know this, wow
bonesmccoy
Banned
So did Russia. It's not legally binding, obvs.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/02/us-ukraine-crisis-usa-kerry-idUSBREA210DG20140302
Now that's pretty hilarious.
Construction of South Stream should begin this year
BlazingDarkness
Member
lol
Jex
Member
Ah, strong willed words from America. That's about the only actions they can take at the moment.
Not that Russia even cares. They've achieved their primary goal already, as other's have said (with regards to Sevastopol in the Crimean Peninsula):
So it's not like Russia will be backing away from such a strategically important location any time soon.
Not that Russia even cares. They've achieved their primary goal already, as other's have said (with regards to Sevastopol in the Crimean Peninsula):
So it's not like Russia will be backing away from such a strategically important location any time soon.
CyclopsRock
Member
"The EU" can't really do anything militarily. Ashton is a figurehead - we have no unified EU foreign policy, and even if we did, we have no unified EU military units to conduct it. It's one of the few areas of nation state policy that's basically 100% in the hands of the member states. Aside from anything, the UK and France basically dominate the EU in terms of its military might, and we're both major members of NATO and the security council, so the EU comes fairly low of our hierarchy of importance when it comes to military action.
Nobody will take that statement seriously in Russia.. well actually, nowhere for that matter.
maquiladora
Member
Bad news for Kiev, but was always possible considering the historic links between the Ukrainian Navy and the Russian Black Sea Fleet which were one entity until the mid-90s.
Haha the nerve on this guy. Fucking John Kerry smh
RustyNails
Member
Sorry if I'm not up to speed and I understand that Yanukovych was ousted, but who is the current "leader" of Ukraine? Why doesn't Putin like him?
TacticalFox88
Banned
On one hand....holy shit.
On the other, is this really surprising? I'm pretty sure all of the Ukraine's commanders know fighting is pointless as they know 100% for a fact that they will lose. Might as well be on the winning team.
jakonovski
Member
Man, once the newness of being under Russian rule in Crimea wears out, I wouldn't want to be a Crimean Tartar.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
I wonder if Owen Wilson will patrol the skies during NATO recon in his F-18 and be under SAM attacks.
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