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Update: Shadow of War does not require internet connection to play

in my opnion their progression/comestic system was very bad, in my case it was one of the main things that drove me away from the game, Ubisoft did many changes to fix the issue but the grind was still too much.

Do you think the progression system, by itself, would have been perceived as bad? Or was the knowledge of a microtransaction system that could potentially bypass the progression system what made it bad by comparison?

Because I think a lot of people, monetization designers included, don't realize that grindy systems, by themselves, aren't necessarily bad things. But they become perceptually bad when you implement systems that highlight said grind and either punish/reward you in other ways.

As a systems designer, this was always the biggest argument I would have with monetization teams. We'd build this elaborate house of cards and then, at the last minute, they'd want to tack on something that breaks everything down and we'd scramble to somehow make it work.
 

Permanently A

Junior Member
I was a developer of AAA online games, most of which included F2P models and microtransactions, for nearly a decade. The vast majority of games, outside of select mobile titles, are not designed around monetization schemas - often the monetization schema isn't decided upon until well into development, sometimes as late as the last few months before release and even changes post-launch.

Developers do not design these systems. They are often created and maintained by teams of marketing, finance, and publishing individuals who work directly for the publisher and have very little, if any, direct contact with the actual developers until the very end of development. By which time, the majority of the game's actual content has been locked in and cannot be altered without pushing milestone dates and ultimately altering the launch of the product - which is extremely costly and only happens in the most dire of circumstances (i.e. not because of a monetization schema change).

Lootboxes are often extremely easy to implement and have almost zero impact on the intended progression of the game in terms of altering development. I have never sat in a meeting with other developers and thought about how we could modify the game's natural progression to accommodate for lootboxes - this is across multiple AAA studios, with multiple different publishers, over a decade, across multiple genres, and several different monetization schemes ranging from F2P, B2P, monthly subscription models, and hybrids of everything in-between.

Monetization teams generally just request assets to be used for everything from retailer exclusives, deluxe/collector's edition extras, lootboxes, microtransaction stores, and so on. Often these assets will get additional budget - in both monetary and time resources - in order to accommodate their development outside of the main product, but not always. They do not dictate how the game is developed. They do not dictate how a progression system flows. They do not dictate how other in-game rewards systems are paid out to the player. They often don't even get to choose which assets are created, modified, or set aside for special use cases.

This is how development on these types of titles and these types of microtransactions systems happens. It really isn't an opinion. It's really frustrating to see so many developers come forward and explain how the industry works, from talking to game journalists and publishing stories to writing books about their experiences and how things are made, to developer diaries and podcasts and behind the scenes documentaries and discussions, to online/convention panels and GDC development talks... and no one seems to be listening and continue to spout their ignorant hot takes based on absolutely nothing.

Thanks for an interesting post.
 

Jacob4815

Member
OK, the article referenced in the OP has been updated with info from the Monolith community manager via Discord.
[url]http://wccftech.com/monolith-shadow-...ires-internet/[/URL]

He says that, "at the moment the game is playable offline".

Of course that "at the moment" part isn't the best way to put something if you want to shut this always-online talk down.

They need to clarify this "at the moment" statement or I 'm not going to buy this shit. Preorder cancelled, "at the moment".
 
They need to clarify this "at the moment" statement or I 'm not going to buy this shit. Preorder cancelled, "at the moment".
Reminds me of EA and their statements on SIMCITY when that happened before and after.

You should probablt wait and see before giving them money if offline matters to you.
 

PR_rambo

Banned
I'm really excited for this game, I went back and finished Shadow of Mordor in anticipation. This would be incredibly disheartening
 
This is how development on these types of titles and these types of microtransactions systems happens. It really isn't an opinion. It's really frustrating to see so many developers come forward and explain how the industry works, from talking to game journalists and publishing stories to writing books about their experiences and how things are made, to developer diaries and podcasts and behind the scenes documentaries and discussions, to online/convention panels and GDC development talks... and no one seems to be listening and continue to spout their ignorant hot takes based on absolutely nothing.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain your experience, but I can't shake feeling that its awfully coincidental that so many of the big AAA games are moving towards modes with leveling and loot or integrated mod cards, which just happen to slot perfectly into these monetization schemes. Are devs really not considering this stuff at all?

It's marketing legalese. They're just saying that to cover their ass for all eventualities.
Those possible eventualities can give pause though - we've seen plenty of games add freemium stuff after release. Don't think I've ever heard of a game becoming online-only afterwards tho ;p
 

RedRum

Banned
So now that we found out that internet is not required to play, now we will outrage over "..at the moment?" Yeesh.
 
So now that we found out that internet is not required to play, now we will outrage over "..at the moment?" Yeesh.
I don't see the outrage, just caution, which at the very worst only means wait-and-see.

Doesn't help to respond to easily misunderstood answers with more easily misunderstood answers.
 

RedRum

Banned
I don't see the outrage, just caution, which at the very worst only means wait-and-see.

Doesn't help to respond to easily misunderstood answers with more easily misunderstood answers.

Cancelling a preorder because of that comment is a little more than caution. Maybe just a tad paranoid. :)
 

Estoc

Member
Cancelling a preorder because of that comment is a little more than caution. Maybe just a tad paranoid. :)

I don't know why cancelling a preorder isn't a caution, if I feel the game might not meet what I want, and want to play on the safe side, how is that not being cautious but "outrage"?

Cancelling a preorder doesn't mean they aren't or can't get it later down the line if the game turns out good, or the issues are overblown.
 
Cancelling a preorder because of that comment is a little more than caution. Maybe just a tad paranoid. :)
Its a pre-order in this day and age where there's probably the tiniest risk of it selling out (and digital providing even less reason). Cancelling one isn't even slightly paranoid - its exuberant optimism to sign up for one.
 

RedRum

Banned
I don't know why cancelling a preorder isn't a caution, if I feel the game might not meet what I want, and want to play on the safe side, how is that not being cautious but "outrage"?

Cancelling a preorder doesn't mean they aren't or can't get it later down the line if the game turns out good, or the issues are overblown.

Its a pre-order in this day and age where there's probably the tiniest risk of it selling out (and digital providing even less reason). Cancelling one isn't even slightly paranoid - its exuberant optimism to sign up for one.

I just don't understand why people think it would be feasible to add "always online" down the road when this is just a security measure for their loot crap.
 
I just don't understand why people think it would be feasible to add "always online" down the road when this is just a security measure for their loot crap.
Honestly I couldn't imagine somebody doing that either.

But if I had to guess what "at this time" could possibly mean, outside of a superabundance of caution on the community manager's part - maybe online and offline could require different, incompatible saves - something we have seen in other games. That'd allow for offline, but with some disclaimers and hedging.

That's purely a guess out of thin air, with zero basis in fact in this case, but when people hedge their words my subconscious tends to ruminate on it and offer up scenarios.

Its probably nothing, but a clear statement from Monolith couldn't hurt.
 

Estoc

Member
I just don't understand why people think it would be feasible to add "always online" down the road when this is just a security measure for their loot crap.

I can't speak for the others, and I don't know if they are in such a significant number that you should pay them that much mind.

For me, personally, if a game has a chance that it might not meet my requirements for a good game at the moment of release or later, I will put it on wait-n-see.

Sure, they might keep the game offline-possible for the entire life of the game, but there is a possibility, no matter how small, and for me, I don't want to take that risk. I don't need to when I have so many other games to play.

Whether or not something's a deal-breaker is subjective and vary from person to person.
 

N1tr0sOx1d3

Given another chance
Cancelling a preorder because of that comment is a little more than caution. Maybe just a tad paranoid. :)

What other option is there? Damned if you do..damned if you don't.

The option to purchase after a clear statement is issued still exsists. Nothing wrong with protecting yourself.
 
I don't understand how so many gamers still know absolutely nothing about how game development works.

The general consumer doesn't care. They say they do, but then when actually given insight, they get mad. I mean, look at the Skullgirls thread on this very forum. Look at the comments to the Double Fine documentary. Fuck, read any comments on Kickstarter pages in general. Hell, when a dev does speak up, it is usually met with anger.

People want to believe that their worldview is correct, and sometimes, they latch on to things as simple as video games or TV show for validation. They need to be angry at something.
 

Audioboxer

Member
At least there has been an update as forced online connections in a SP game are fucking stupid, no matter how much "fancy behind the scenes dev chat" you want to drop on the ill-educated gamers. When other games do it fine, there is no excuse. The Souls series has one of the most online boosted SP experiences out there... works 100% offline.

Anyway, loot boxes in a $60 SP game... yeah. The slow march towards "everything was microtransactions and loot boxes" is quite depressing. When everything gets treated as a F2P game even although they're not F2P games.
 
Cancelling a preorder because of that comment is a little more than caution. Maybe just a tad paranoid. :)

So fucking what? Being paranoid at dropping $60 on a game that could eventually introduce gross and exploitative microtransactions is pretty reasonable.
 
I'm hoping this ends up being another Deus Ex Mankind Divided situation where they let you buy Praxis points with real money but since the game itself gives you an over abundance of them there's no reason to buy them anyways. As long as the game isn't balanced around the microtransactions it should be fine.
 

Quonny

Member
I will be playing this from home on a console and the microtransations will have no impact on me, so whatever the 'at the moment' comment means is a big shrug.

Gonna be a dope game.
 

Rellik

Member
I will be playing this from home on a console and the microtransations will have no impact on me, so whatever the 'at the moment' comment means is a big shrug.

Gonna be a dope game.

Unless the game is designed to push you into buying loot boxes.
 

Quonny

Member
Unless the game is designed to push you into buying loot boxes.
Like every other single player game I've ever played with shortcut microtransactions, I do not think this will be the case.

But then again, I'm a GameFly user, so at the very worst I waste 4 days in my queue and like $1.
 

Peroroncino

Member
When has this ever happened?

Not sure if sarcasm, but if not, similar things already happened before, for example Assassin's Creed Unity microtransactions, they weren't visible in the review versions, however they were 'unlocked' in the release copies prompting some reviewers to update their reviews with this info because people were confused why none of the review mentioned the fact that the game indeed has microtransactions.
 

JosephSiren

Neo Member
When they first announced this game, I am hyped.

When I saw the gem system and item quality stuff looks like some f2p shit mobile game, I start to hesitate.

Now...mmm...

Interesting.
 
I appreciate you taking the time to explain your experience, but I can't shake feeling that its awfully coincidental that so many of the big AAA games are moving towards modes with leveling and loot or integrated mod cards, which just happen to slot perfectly into these monetization schemes. Are devs really not considering this stuff at all?

You can always approach this question from the other angle and look at how many AAA games have leveling, loot and progression systems without lootboxes and imagine how easily it would be to implement them even now.

For example, how easy would it be to put lootboxs into The Witcher series and bypass all of the non-main storyline minimap grind? It'd be pretty simple to put things like crafting materials, currency, xp boosts, specialized gear and Gwent cards into lootboxes and perceptually it would look like the entire game was designed for lootboxes.

Or, something older like Bioshock, what all could be put in a lootbox that was already in the game? Adam, money, ammo, plasmids, slot unlocks, research points... How much of that, if placed into a microtransaction loot system would make the game appear designed for lootboxes?

That's what I mean by saying these systems are incredibly easy to overlay into just about any game and can easily exploit existing loot and progression systems to appear to have full integration even when said microtransaction system wasn't developed until after the fact. And it's almost always way after the fact. I've worked on titles where the dev team didn't know the monetization plan until 6 months before release on a game that was in development for 4 years.
 
Despite the clarification on the online-only requirement, my pre-order is remaining canceled as the media stumbles around this game have me very nervous.

I will cautiously wait for reviews, but right now I'm planning to spend my October gaming dollars elsewhere and will likely wait until this title goes on sale.

I'm sorry, Monolith and WB, you had me - and then you lost me, hard.
 
If there is no always online connection and the players save is local then a trainer/save editor could absolutely change the amount of those items you have in your inventory. And as wb has showed us they a aren't above keeping micro transactions stuff client side like they did with injustice 2. People with that save editor on ps4 is able to give themselves anything that you can buy with real money. It's all stored locally.
 

mas8705

Member
How did this game go from one of the "Must Get" games of the year to being an absolute trainwreck?!

It was bad enough as it is to suddenly slip in the "Microtransactions" into a single player game, but now we have a ranked mode too?! Are we really seeing a possible "Pay to win" in action?

And here I thought the stunt they tried to pull with "paying youtubers for positive reviews" was dumb. I guess we found out how you can foot yourself in the foot with a nail gun here. Was on the edge of actually buying the game, but now I'll just go with the redbox.
 
How did this game go from one of the "Must Get" games of the year to being an absolute trainwreck?!

It was bad enough as it is to suddenly slip in the "Microtransactions" into a single player game, but now we have a ranked mode too?! Are we really seeing a possible "Pay to win" in action?

And here I thought the stunt they tried to pull with "paying youtubers for positive reviews" was dumb. I guess we found out how you can foot yourself in the foot with a nail gun here. Was on the edge of actually buying the game, but now I'll just go with the redbox.

As much as I hate the stupid invasion thing they are doing, at least it makes the microtransactions make sense (as much as that sucks to say) It's going to be like a f2p online game, it could be very very pay 2 win. I want ZERO to do with a multiplayer mode.
 

Sohaim

Member
Do you think the progression system, by itself, would have been perceived as bad? Or was the knowledge of a microtransaction system that could potentially bypass the progression system what made it bad by comparison?

Because I think a lot of people, monetization designers included, don't realize that grindy systems, by themselves, aren't necessarily bad things. But they become perceptually bad when you implement systems that highlight said grind and either punish/reward you in other ways.

As a systems designer, this was always the biggest argument I would have with monetization teams. We'd build this elaborate house of cards and then, at the last minute, they'd want to tack on something that breaks everything down and we'd scramble to somehow make it work.
Yes, in that case, they wanted people to focus on just one or two characters, but many players wanted to have fun with as many as possible(my case too), and the progression was in the way.
 

methane47

Member
Thank god... right now freaking Just Cause 3 is unplayable because of this requirement for me.

It seems with the influx of players who got it with PSN+ the game has a switch to go offline, but then anytime I do an action that needs the start screen or any type of loading screen, the game automatically attempts to connect to online.. at which time i have to wait 2-3 mintues for the connection to time out so i can press "play offline" again

Its absurd
 

BigDug13

Member
Thank god... right now freaking Just Cause 3 is unplayable because of this requirement for me.

It seems with the influx of players who got it with PSN+ the game has a switch to go offline, but then anytime I do an action that needs the start screen or any type of loading screen, the game automatically attempts to connect to online.. at which time i have to wait 2-3 mintues for the connection to time out so i can press "play offline" again

Its absurd

I seem to remember kicking the PS4 into airplane mode would help bypass those problems. Shitty workaround but it was a workaround.
 
The conspiracy theories about this shit are off the charts.
Yes, let's take the devs at their word when they say that they don't intend to let these microtransactions affect the balancing of the game. These microtransactions which are solely there to nickel and dime the consumer further beyond the initial asking price. I'm sure they just put microtransactions there for the sake of it, right? I mean, it's not like you have recent examples like MGSV, where certain elements were blatantly designed in such a way to encourage the player to pay real money to bypass arbitrary barriers.
 
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