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[SegaShack]

you think this is good enough?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXTRON-MODE...531?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item338952de3b

Been looking at Extrons on ebay today. That one is good because the sync connector has C on it, which means composite (which is what PVM 20L5 uses). This is also an awesome set because it allows RCA inputs too. I'm going to buy an extron myself now.


edit: It probably doesn't allow multiple inputs to be selected, so just know that component audio won't go through this switch.

edit 2: need to read the manuals, one mentioned that when there is no sync it will sync on green, which is not good for component.

 

[Timu]

Just got my Sync Strike, will post impressions later.

 

[GayForMaster]

Been looking at Extrons on ebay today. That one is good because the sync connector has C on it, which means composite (which is what PVM 20L5 uses). This is also an awesome set because it allows RCA inputs too. I'm going to buy an extron myself now.


edit: It probably doesn't allow multiple inputs to be selected, so just know that component audio won't go through this switch.

edit 2: need to read the manuals, one mentioned that when there is no sync it will sync on green, which is not good for component.

What does the whole sync stuff mean anyway? Why is RGB+Sync needed? And it's better to sync in its own port rather than on Green? Why's that?

 

[Timu]

RGB to component:

Real RGB(from Sync Strike):

I'm glad I bought the Sync Strike.=p

 

[Peagles]

^ Wow looks great, crazy how much colour is lost via component.

 

[SegaShack]

What does the whole sync stuff mean anyway? Why is RGB+Sync needed? And it's better to sync in its own port rather than on Green? Why's that?

Now that I think about it, the box detecting it as sync on Green shouldn't matter. It just passes over the signal to the same G output regardless. Those Extron 8 Plus switchers should be perfect. I'm gonna order one.

As for what sync is:

Sync means it provides information for the horizontal or vertical synchronization of the image so it doesn't flicker all over the place and show up weird. So you will sometimes see sync H or sync V. For most things, and for our TVs we use composite sync, which means that it combines both horizontal and vertical sync into one cord.

VGA is a sync on Green connection which means that the pin the cable that carries green also carries the sync information.

 

[antibolo]

^ Wow looks great, crazy how much colour is lost via component.

That may simply be his component converter being crap, though.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Can you post more pics from different sources with an eye toward showing more apparent color loss, Timu? Is that the SNES or Genesis version of Sunset Riders? Or is it an arcade board? Seems more saturated than anything else to me on this monitor. I guess looking at unique color count in an image editor could reveal the exact difference. If it is a huge difference, I wonder if the process of taking the VGA output and converting it back to component would be pointless.

 

[baphomet]

If it is a huge difference, I wonder if the process of taking the VGA output and converting it back to component would be pointless.

It would just cause even further degradation of the image.

 

[televator]

If you enjoy it it's all good though - it's still the best way to play GBA games on a TV.

Force 240p on it and its even better.

 

[D.Lo]

That may simply be his component converter being crap, though.

Yeah component shouldn't lose too much, in most situations it should be indistinguishable from RGB. And being lower bandwidth it can even be better, since signal loss is less of a factor - a good component signal, and cable, will have less noise than the equivalent RGB.

 

[Timu]

Can you post more pics from different sources with an eye toward showing more apparent color loss, Timu? Is that the SNES or Genesis version of Sunset Riders? Or is it an arcade board? Seems more saturated than anything else to me on this monitor. I guess looking at unique color count in an image editor could reveal the exact difference. If it is a huge difference, I wonder if the process of taking the VGA output and converting it back to component would be pointless.

I'll get some more games up soon. It's the SNES version. And saturated? That's what the official shot looks like for colors and I pretty much matched it in terms of color.
My shot/Official shot

/

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I'll get some more games up soon. It's the SNES version. And saturated? That's what the official shot looks like for colors and I pretty much matched it in terms of color.
My shot/Official shot

/

I guess it's the water's and sky's shade of blue for me. Maybe the lack of scanlines darkening the image, tempering the color intensity.

 

[Peagles]

That may simply be his component converter being crap, though.

Yeh. I really need to get something to do captures with my gear. Then I could compare RGB and component on systems that support both; it'd be a good test.

I was more expressing my surprise at the hike in quality though. Regardless of what it was down to, that's a nice improvement in changing up gear.

 

[BONKERS]

RGB to component:

Real RGB(from Sync Strike):

I'm glad I bought the Sync Strike.=p

Not a hugely meaningful difference in my eyes.. Component looks better without the jailbars imo.

Also Sync strike looks overly bright compared to official shot. some details are more visible with component.

Is your capture card introducing compression as well?


Comparing to a direct capture from an Emulator seems like it'd be a worthwhile thing for reference purposes.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Component looks better without the jailbars imo.

I see them now, too. I should stop paying too much attention before I start questioning my setup and spending more money.

 

[BONKERS]

Does seem closer to the source
>

(Blown up 200% via Nearest neighbor)
The Sync Strike does seem to be losing detail in the high end a slight amount.
(Do ignore the "Press Start" bit though. That's constantly strobing from light to dark)
I digress though, both look great.

Really comes down to preference

 

[Timu]

Is your capture card introducing compression as well?

No, it shouldn't be doing that, also it's definitely closer to the official source in terms of color at least.

Also here's X-Men Mutant Apocalypse, the biggest difference is Wolverine with some color changes, left component, right rgb:

/

As for those jailbars, well, I read a brightness change can lower them to nothing, so I should try that though I forgot what forum I read that on.

EDIT: Turns out that turning up the sharpness got rid of the jailbars, look at it now!!!

No more jailbars with RGB!!!

I see them now, too. I should stop paying too much attention before I start questioning my setup and spending more money.

Well I fixed it so it's all good!

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Don't put too much stock into coloring differences in screen captures unless you know your capture card is configured correctly for your source, and only if you can visually see the difference on your actual TV/monitor and not in just the capture. I often have to make manual adjustments to correct color space issues in captured footage (BT601 vs BT709, limited RGB vs full RGB, etc).

 

[Timu]

Don't put too much stock into coloring differences in screen captures unless you know your capture card is configured correctly for your source, and only if you can visually see the difference on your actual TV/monitor and not in just the capture. I often have to make manual adjustments to correct color space issues in captured footage (BT601 vs BT709, limited RGB vs full RGB, etc).

Well, I'm going to have to make some adjustments because I'm noticing something is up with my captures.=O Turns out that sharpness did the trick, man there's so much to learn about RGB, lol.

 

[baphomet]

Here's a video showing off my newest addition to the collection. I edited it all together to do some voice over the top of the video originally, so that's why the gameplay has cuts. The volume is also kind of loud in spots, but I was just going to make it real low for the voice over anyway. May still get around to it when I have more time.

http://youtu.be/sOK2W5ydUnw

It's an IGS PolyGame Master with Demon Front and DoDonPachi II Bee Storm. It looks amazing on my PVM. Also very happy with this purchase. Some great games.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Any interest in Martial Masters? I remember hearing it was the PGM's answer to CPS3 games like Street Fighter III

 

[Peltz]

Welp, a week ago, I was gaming on Composhit on my HDTV like a sap. Since then, I got my RGB monitor and last night I finally got my XRGB Mini! (Life will never be the same).

One thing: I do not like the way the faux scanlines look at either 1080p or 720p. I assume the 720p scanlines look awkward on my setup due to the upscaling of my TV to 1080p. But, playing my SNES and Genesis at 480p in meister-mode with scanlines looks downright amazing. I seem to prefer the Mini to output at that resolution to retain a bit of the softness to the image to which I'm accustomed... with or without scanlines.

720p and 1080p are so damn sharp. If you like razor-sharp emulator-like pixels then I could see why that'd be your preference. But to me, it's a bit too much.

Anyway, the device is totally worth it for anyone on the fence. The biggest difference to my eyes so far was with DKC on SNES. Those prerendered graphics/backgrounds always looked like shit until I tried them on the XRGB with scanlines enabled. I had no idea the game was so beautiful when viewed the way it was meant to be seen. It went from being my least favorite to being one of my favorite looking SNES games in an instant.

 

[baphomet]

Any interest in Martial Masters? I remember hearing it was the PGM's answer to CPS3 games like Street Fighter III

Yup, theres a few I'm interested in picking up and that is definitely one of them. The Gladiator also looks quite fun.

 

[dodgeme]

Well I'm sold a second time around. My RGB monitor has made the PS2 actually playable. The games always looked dark and murky on my LCD's but I got around to getting the cables and have started to collect for it a bit and I gotta say PS2 games can look quite good on a good monitor. Heres some quick shots. Haven't got my memory card in yet so just some intro shots for now.

 

[Peltz]

Well I'm sold a second time around. My RGB monitor has made the PS2 actually playable. The games always looked dark and murky on my LCD's but I got around to getting the cables and have started to collect for it a bit and I gotta say PS2 games can look quite good on a good monitor. Heres some quick shots. Haven't got my memory card in yet so just some intro shots for now.

That looks mighty fine indeed. What kind of monitor is that?

 

[dodgeme]

That looks mighty fine indeed. What kind of monitor is that?

Its a rebranded sony pvm. An olympus oev143. It definitely sold me on these monitors. Id like to get a 19 to 20 inch one eventually.

On a side note, how about some PS1 over component now.

Heres a quick shot of Megaman X5. This monitor really makes the scanlines shine.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Another XM29 overview vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-zAl3-uHjA

I'd love one of these!

 

[theSlacker]

Another XM29 overview vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-zAl3-uHjA

I'd love one of these!

Wouldn't we all. I keep a few hundred in cash around just in case I ever find one for sale.

 

[televator]

Speaking of elusive CRTs and geometry issues.... That vid demonstrates something I've been considering. Geometry issues REALLY irk me, and no CRT I've seen has it nailed. Even my friend's XM29 had pretty bad geometry. To think that a CRT I put on a pedastal would disappoint me once I saw it... I think I'm going to switch to Team XRGB soon.

 

[Peltz]

Another XM29 overview vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-zAl3-uHjA

I'd love one of these!

So is the consensus that, all things being equal, this model is the holy grail of CRT tech?

Also, I have a historical question. For educational purposes, I was wondering if someone could explain the following: In a traditional North American composite setup of a retro console - e.g. Sega Genesis - > Composite Cable - > Consumer Grade CRT, at what point does the native 240p image turn into an interlaced image? And in what resolution is that interlaced image running in when sent to an old school NTSC television?

If composite is capable of outputting native 240p, why did the interlaced signal ever become a commonplace thing?

 

[televator]

So is the consensus that, all things being equal, this model is the holy grail of CRT tech?

Also, I have a historical question. For educational purposes, I was wondering if someone could explain the following: In a traditional North American composite setup of a retro console - e.g. Sega Genesis - > Composite Cable - > Consumer Grade CRT, at what point does the native 240p image turn into an interlaced image? And in what resolution is that interlaced image running in when sent to an old school NTSC television?

If composite is capable of outputting native 240p, why did the interlaced signal ever become a commonplace thing?

It doesn't. Scanlines, are the other half of the image that would have otherwise been filled in. 240p cant be interlaced so the TV just displays those beutiful scanlines instead.

Anyway, yeah, the XM29 is possibly the best CRT. Careful about romanticizing it too much though. Expect varying geometry issues whith any CRT. You can't notice it in a still pic., but irl it makes scrolling backgrounds look like they are under water.

 

[Peltz]

It doesn't. Scanlines, are the other half of the image that would have otherwise been filled in. 240p cant be interlaced so the TV just displays those beutiful scanlines instead.

Anyway, yeah, the XM29 is possibly the best CRT. Careful about romanticizing it too much though. Expect varying geometry issues whith any CRT. You can't notice it in a still pic., but irl it makes scrolling backgrounds look like they are under water.

So then why do HDTV's need to deinterlace an image from an old school game hooked up via composite?

 

[televator]

So then why do HDTV's need to deinterlace an image from an old school game hooked up via composite?

I'm not aware of any HDTVs that require that process for 240p. Nor can I imagine how it would work to deinterlace a progressive signal. Its like trying to make water more wet. The point of deinterlacing is to make an interlaced signal into a sort of faux progressive signal. There are different methods of doing so but I won't go into all those details right now since I think what you are really thinking about is upscaling. It overlaps with deinterlacing, but its not the same thing.

All modern HDTVs do require upscaling of some king to display an incoming non native resolution signal.

 

[antibolo]

240p was never a real thing in the NTSC standard, it's a hackish technique that works by rendering both odd and even lines at the same position, hence the true progressive 59.95 FPS at the cost of half the amount of usable lines, with visible gaps between them.

NTSC and PAL are defined as being always interlaced.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

That garfield wastebasket is clutch.

 

[Yes Boss!]

Speaking of elusive CRTs and geometry issues.... That vid demonstrates something I've been considering. Geometry issues REALLY irk me, and no CRT I've seen has it nailed. Even my friend's XM29 had pretty bad geometry. To think that a CRT I put on a pedastal would disappoint me once I saw it... I think I'm going to switch to Team XRGB soon.

Sounds like a good idea.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

So these four have become available are within driving distance.
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/ele/4718126958.html

 

[Bancho]

Speaking of elusive CRTs and geometry issues.... That vid demonstrates something I've been considering. Geometry issues REALLY irk me, and no CRT I've seen has it nailed.

I'm the same, Bad geometry bugs the hell out of me. My JVC has great geometry mind.. for a CRT

 

[theSlacker]

So these four have become available are within driving distance.
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/ele/4718126958.html

Prices are too high, but it may be the guy not realizing how much their value currently is. I recently got 2 BVM-D20F1U monitors for $150 each when the guy listed them for much higher on craigslist by just talking to him and letting him get other offers.

Though after rereading the listing I wouldn't pay $50 for that bvm since it seems it has problems. The guy seems clued in on the retro gamer desirability of them as well which could be how he things his prices aren't crazy.

 

[Adam Blue]

Another XM29 overview vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-zAl3-uHjA

I'd love one of these!

Him and I each got one from Houston last weekend! My friend just happened to be driving up from Houston to Dallas when Rob got word of the monitors and my friend was willing to grab them for us! Here's a blog post about it.

I think I'll also be doing a video, but it really depends if there's something to cover that hasn't been yet.

What would you guys like me to cover? I'm thinking I'll cover some light troubleshooting and geometry.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

Prices are too high, but it may be the guy not realizing how much their value currently is. I recently got 2 BVM-D20F1U monitors for $150 each when the guy listed them for much higher on craigslist by just talking to him and letting him get other offers.

Though after rereading the listing I wouldn't pay $50 for that bvm since it seems it has problems. The guy seems clued in on the retro gamer desirability of them as well which could be how he things his prices aren't crazy.

Yeah I think I'm gonna correspond with him. I recently met a reseller guy in person and kinda have been talking to him, he's very open minded to pricing and tries to keep tabs on the current economy.. hopefully this guy is the same and just needs a few examples.

He says they all have an SDI to component converter installed.. could that have something to do with the high prices?

 

[theSlacker]

Yeah I think I'm gonna correspond with him. I recently met a reseller guy in person and kinda have been talking to him, he's very open minded to pricing and tries to keep tabs on the current economy.. hopefully this guy is the same and just needs a few examples.

He says they all have an SDI to component converter installed.. could that have something to do with the high prices?

To its actual value right now? No, not really. Much like the bkm-42hd thing the D series BVMs have that allows for HD signals though it, it is a unit that would have cost a ton at one point in time, much like the monitor itself, but is useless now since said monitor is now never going to be used for that purpose. Or at least that isn't your intended use. It is going to be hard to find good price examples though. Random monitors can sell on ebay for a ton and have no real indication of what someone can get for one everyday.

Like I said, I wouldn't even touch the BVM he has listed since I can't do and don't know anyone that can do serious repair work. That is not the hassle you want. A PVM-20L5 is really good though and worth it, just not at his price. I would probably pay $150 max, while still rathering closer to $100, and would still need to demo it to make sure it isn't over used. Don't think the PVM has a way to check the operation hours like the BVM does so checking it out is the only real way to be sure.

Him and I each got one from Houston last weekend! My friend just happened to be driving up from Houston to Dallas when Rob got word of the monitors and my friend was willing to grab them for us! Here's a blog post about it.

I think I'll also be doing a video, but it really depends if there's something to cover that hasn't been yet.

What would you guys like me to cover? I'm thinking I'll cover some light troubleshooting and geometry.

I would like you to cover what a couple of lucky jerks you two are. >:C

Spoiler

pls gib monitor

 

[BONKERS]

Ugh, my Phillips CRT has humongous geometry issues.

But I can live with them, and are used to them after 20+ years on various CRTs I guess

 

[Friend of Sonic]

Crossposting from the Dreamcast thread

My toro VGA box came in, and it is amazing. The scart cable indeed outputs 480p. I don't know if it's doing 31khz on my monitor (my PVM 20l5 supports the frequency but I guess I have no way of telling what it's displaying in) but the picture looks wonderful.

It's expensive, yes, but if you need a sync combiner and VGA box, and are interested in the Scart option (I love incorporating it into my switchbox setup instead of having to buy a VGA->BNC cable) then you should definitely buy it.

 

[ehnox]

My setup, I am actually defying the laws of space.

and I am very proud and happy to announce that I've successfully enabled RGB on all my pre-HD consoles in order to use them with this baby: SONY BVM14G5U

This monitor Shall not Fail Thou!

N64 RGB done right by a japanese technician, a good job indeed! A very well placed THS7314 amp.

Actually I won an auction from this guy, he sells rgb modded n64s, it arrived this week, I will be doing some proper testing and posting some shots of games in action!

 

[Peltz]

My setup, I am actually defying the laws of space.

and I am very proud and happy to announce that I've successfully enabled RGB on all my pre-HD consoles in order to use them with this baby: SONY BVM14G5U

This monitor Shall not Fail Thou!

N64 RGB done right by a japanese technician, a good job indeed! A very well placed THS7314 amp.

Actually I won an auction from this guy, he sells rgb modded n64s, it arrived this week, I will be doing some proper testing and posting some shots of games in action!

Post your gaming setup in this thread:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=745183
You'll fit in just fine here. Welcome to NeoGAF.

 

[sixteen-bit]

is it cool to stack the Saturn on top like that?

 

[Peltz]

is it cool to stack the Saturn on top like that?

As in "Will it cause harm?" Not to the BVM, it's meant to withstand more weight. Unless you're referring to the heat given off by the monitor. But it appears to vent heat further back on his model where the holes have room to breathe.

As in "is it hip?" Why yes, yes it is.

 

[baphomet]

Thats an unfortunate BVM to Tate.

I like the setup though. I should really post mine sometime.