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Valve cut artist's Dota Workshop revenue from 25% to 6% over the last year

sanstesy

Member
Thoroughly explained here.

Why people should care:
Because we truly believe that the Workshop is the most incredible engine for funding a free-to-play game that has ever been conceived, and some of us have been a cheerleader for the model to everyone we've met since we started contributing to the game. It's a completely community driven effort on both the side of the creators and the consumers. It is, at its best, a successful signature product of Valve experimentation and implementation, something that should be nourished and grown, cared for and held up as a legitimately amazing form of a successful UGC driven economy.
It has empowered 3D and 2D designers, both amateur and professional, to take full charge of their own designs and compete in an environment filled with other top-grade artists from around the world. It has given artists who might have problems fitting into a standard rigid work schedule, for reasons physical, medical, or mental, a platform on which they can not only support themselves, but thrive.
We've always assumed the success of Workshop artists, the community, and Dota 2 as both a game and an esport, would all go hand-in-hand. It has become depressingly clear over the past eight months that Valve, or elements within Valve, think this is not the case.
If the Workshop was to fail as a full-time job prospect, we would expect and want that to be a result of a market dive, the failure of cosmetics we create to drive the economy of Dota 2, and not seemingly artificially imposed cuts to our share of the revenue to line other pockets or avenues for undisclosed reasons.
After all the above, for many of us, the Call to Arms for the TI7 Collector's Cache represents a final breaking point of the Dota 2 Workshop. Those of us who manage to get something in it may be able to continue doing this through the year into a further uncertain future. Those of us who don't are going to have to call it quits.
We don't have any sort of leverage, and we have essentially been ignored by Valve. And some of us fear that, if we were to continue to press the issue with them, we might get essentially blacklisted from the Steam Workshop, so we have been left with little choice but to bring this matter to your attention directly, in a collective manner.
We hope that, with attention brought to this issue, we can see some systemic change, and even maybe a better future for Dota cosmetics as a whole.

Overall this is disgusting and it should not only be important to DotA 2 fans but potentially all F2P modelled Valve games. It completely breaks when creators aren't actually rewarded sufficiently.
 

Blam

Member
There's always another side to the story with these types of things.

edit: nm that's pretty fucked up.
 

DarkKyo

Member
There's always another side to the story with these types of things.

I want to believe that, but I don't understand how they can argue in favor of this much of a cut. It's a virtual good, they are making money off of an infinitely replicated good that has no material cost to them.
 

Buckle

Member
Doesn't surprise me seeing how they handled the profit split for Skyrim's mods.

They're not interested in giving modders a fair cut, just scraps.
 
That seems like a pretty shitty thing to do. I dont recall valve being this shady to its community before....oh wait cs go skins.
 

sanstesy

Member
I want to believe that, but I don't understand how they can argue in favor of this much of a cut. It's a virtual good, they are making money off of an infinitely replicated good that has no material cost to them.

There is nothing to understand. It's either immoral ignorance or pure greed.

For a company that employs such a huge market, the messaging on display is unparalleled in its incompetence.
 

Nzyme32

Member
Not kept up with Dota other than when TI happens.

This sounds fucking stupid, and if accurate it is. It doesn't serve the workshop or the creators involved. Can't really think of a reasonable explanation for it, made worse by the lack of communication (lol) on it. Valve becomes more sloth like each month

Valve is not obligated to allow you to make money with or on their platform. Same thing for YouTube.

No, but the principle behind it was sound, it was a good step forward both for the creators and the games themselves and was pretty wonderful ecosystem. Their intention have publicly been to continue that, but this is quite the opposite. It is perfectly reasonable for people to find it galling
 

HeatBoost

Member
No disrespect to the folks who work hard on this knda thing, but you're always taking a risk when you're using someone else's platform to make money
 

jelly

Member
Does Valve need the money, not like they have shareholders to please each year. I can only think running Steam now costs a lot more so they need more revenue to cover it but that's just a guess.
 
Valve also cut their efforts to make the game actually playable or fun by at least that percent, so this is unsurprising that they would continue to make bad business decisions with regards to the game.

I've played since Dota 1 and I uninstalled a couple months ago. I've never uninstalled a steam game, or a DOTA genre game. I just became fed up though with disconnects in custom games and their focus on competition over fun.
 
Valve is not obligated to allow you to make money with or on their platform. Same thing for YouTube.

But valve is making money of selling items they didn't create. The whole reason it works is because the creator gets paid. These are full 3D models that are normally created by an internal member at a different company. It's fucked up how they're treating the people who effectively help fuel their in game economy.
 
Valve is not obligated to allow you to make money with or on their platform. Same thing for YouTube.
Doesn't stop it from being greedy as fuck. It's a virtual good, and doesn't cost Valve a penny. Never mind they literally didn't create any of this content.

These cosmetics fuel their game. If they want that to continue as well as it does, they shouldn't do stupid shit.
 

Holundrian

Unconfirmed Member
Hope they take this post to heart and start changing things around.
They're usually pretty good about stuff that swells up within the community.
 

Granadier

Is currently on Stage 1: Denial regarding the service game future
There's always another side to the story with these types of things.

edit: nm that's pretty fucked up.

qKSn2LB.gif
 

BHK3

Banned
The workshop has been dead for like 2 years now though, we rarely get cosmetics nowadays outside of the Majors and then the good looking ones are super ultra rare that no one gets. New Bloom, Majors, TI and a Winter chest, I haven't cared about cosmetics in forever since their aren't any compared to the old days.

You can't trade due to a million restrictions, you can just buy them off the market for pennies, and this is just a continuation of how the workshop always was. I remember artists saying they couldn't get their sets in at all without it being attached to a ticket, people weren't buying tickets that had no sets before everyone ditched the ticket system(basically skipping the VALVE part) and doing everything through twitch. I see the pay cut as reasonable since Cosmetics haven't mattered in dota for a while.
 
Fuck Valve.

There is absolutely no reason why these artists -- which include some of my favorite GAFers BounchFX and Anuxi -- have to live the starving artists lifestyle while Valve takes more and more of the money away from them for the items being used to convince people to buy their compendiums and chests at a high price.

The insult to injury is the regression back to being opaque and unresponsive to communication attempts. It's unprofessional and shows an abject lack of respect for their community and artists. This is a problem that feels unique to Valve: even Microsoft has a monkey out there (Nelson) responding to twitter and somewhat engaging the community. This shit has been a thing at Valve for a long fucking time, with DireTide being one of the straws that broke the camel's back some years ago. You'd think they would have learned. They clearly have not.

So fuck Valve.

The worst part for me is that I'm not sure if I cease future purchases of treasure chests if it huts Valve...or the artists? :-/
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
If they want to foster a positive, healthy community content base, then yeah, they're sort of obligated.

It's not just that but making it a viable career move increases the level of products that ultimately go into the players' hands, which helps support the game. They're undercutting both their playerbase and themselves with this move.

Competition was already fierce enough from what I've seen, GAF artists like bounch and anuxi can probably comment more accurately on this, but this change will just make it harder to break in and be self-sustainable.
 

Lothars

Member
Valve is not obligated to allow you to make money with or on their platform. Same thing for YouTube.
If someone is willing to put in the effort and make these mods than yes the creators should be making the money of it.

There's way more positives for them doing it than negatives, so the ones in the wrong are Valve and Youtube as well or the companies that affect the creators.
 

Phased

Member
Valve sure treats their community like shit sometimes. Completely ignoring feedback, remaining silent for months at a time and rolling out huge changes without discussing it with the community first.

Yet they get a huge pass because they made Half-Life and Gabe said once that piracy isn't a big deal.

It's unfortunate there's no real competitor to Steam. Their horrible customer service and shitty moves go basically unpunished
 

Sibylus

Banned
25% was already pathetic and exploitative. The self-described dream studio isn't even trying anymore to aspire for something greater than vulture capitalism. Fuck Valve.
 
I see the pay cut as reasonable since Cosmetics haven't mattered in dota for a while.

While I agree that Valve's market, restrictions, and Major system (crushing small tournaments and trumping the regular creation of normal chests) have forever hurt the dota 2 economy...the pay cut makes no sense.

You know those Battle Pass things they sell during every major? The sales they use to fund these bigass prize pools? You think most people are buying those because they want to get trading cards? No, they want the little digital cosmetics. You know...the ones these artists are creating.

If you remove all cosmetic items from those Battle Passes, how many do you think they would have sold? I'm going to go with 75% less. These artists creations are driving the Battle Pass and treasure chest economy. That's their fucking money. If CSGo artists aren't getting pay cuts, why are Dota artists?
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I mean the whole point of the Workshop was to empower hobbyist content creators to do what they enjoy doing without having to break their bank for it or divide themselves between a real source of income and what they do out of love.

This move directly undermines the entire system's intended purpose. If they keep going in this direction mods and community art assets will go back to the state they were before the Workshop, except the artists can make a few bucks on the side and Valve still gets to profit off of hats and whatnot hand over fist.
 

Nzyme32

Member
25% was already pathetic and exploitative. The self-described dream studio isn't even trying anymore to aspire for something greater than vulture capitalism. Fuck Valve.

What?

And also there is the challenge of how you hold an economy together. Give a much larger percentage profit to such cosmetics and they will make more than the staff working on the game per content being created (which some already do), who would be better served actually just being another workshop artist. This has been discussed at length a ton.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
Someone posted a tl;dr; in the reddit thread:

dVE8aPt.jpg


Edit:
While I agree that Valve's market, restrictions, and Major system (crushing small tournaments and trumping the regular creation of normal chests) have forever hurt the dota 2 economy...the pay cut makes no sense.

You know those Battle Pass things they sell during every major? The sales they use to fund these bigass prize pools? You think most people are buying those because they want to get trading cards? No, they want the little digital cosmetics. You know...the ones these artists are creating.

If you remove all cosmetic items from those Battle Passes, how many do you think they would have sold? I'm going to go with 75% less. These artists creations are driving the Battle Pass and treasure chest economy. That's their fucking money. If CSGo artists aren't getting pay cuts, why are Dota artists?

Agreed.
 

Nzyme32

Member
I mean the whole point of the Workshop was to empower hobbyist content creators to do what they enjoy doing without having to break their bank for it or divide themselves between a real source of income and what they do out of love.

This move directly undermines the entire system's intended purpose. If they keep going in this direction mods and community art assets will go back to the state they were before the Workshop, except the artists can make a few bucks on the side and Valve still gets to profit off of hats and whatnot.

Exactly.

I wonder what is going on with other games though. I don't think they use the same system. Can't say I've followed the games closely enough
 

Woo-Fu

Banned
. I see the pay cut as reasonable since Cosmetics haven't mattered in dota for a while.

This stance doesn't make any sense at all. If cosmetics don't matter because people have stopped buying them then that already is a pay cut. 25% of nothing is exactly the same as 6% of nothing.

Not sure why Valve would do this unless they want to shut it down completely in the not-so-distant future.
 
something which was really good has now slowly begun to flush away, how upsetting to read.

Nah, it was never a paradise. Some artists have made a career early when the competition was low, so their work would be picked up relatively often and there weren't many items for buyers.

However, as more and more creations were submitted, the overall amount of approved items wasn't keeping up. So, for example, instead of submitting 60% of your created content for sale, you would only sell 20%. Getting more than half of your work rejected hurts both financially and motivation wise.

The popularity contest of submitting items is not a good way to select the best items quality wise. Votes do not bind you to buy anything, so if you are a lone wolf artist, then you are not going to get any friend/community votes to boost your chances of getting to the shop. There is a good reason why a majority of art contests have either a community vote to filter submissions before the panel selects winners, or just a flat-out panel without community's votes.

Steam Marketplace also kills any kind of first-hand direct set buyers who don't need anything else but the item. The item drops have tanked a majority of items to cents. The crate sales must compensate artists very well because that is where most players spend their money. Most people don't buy skins directly from the shop like in LoL.

My information is probably outdated in some ways, but believe me, the illusion of amateur artists making banks as a side-hobby or a part-time activity is a rarity on Steam. I think it is much better to build assets for 3D/Unity/UE marketplaces.
 
What?

And also there is the challenge of how you hold an economy together. Give a much larger percentage profit to such cosmetics and they will make more than the staff working on the game per content being created (which some already do), who would be better served actually just being another workshop artist. This has been discussed at length a ton.
Getting your item in the game is already an achievement akin to winning the lottery. Even those that do get their items in put in a lot of work and effort on a whole lot more that get ignored, let alone the crushing majority of items on the workshop that collect dust.
 
This stance doesn't make any sense at all. If cosmetics don't matter because people have stopped buying them then that already is a pay cut. 25% of nothing is exactly the same as 6% of nothing.

Not sure why Valve would do this unless they want to shut it down completely in the not-so-distant future.

I can't imagine they would want to do that whether in Team Fortress 2, CSGo or Dota 2, community-generated items are a win-win-win. Valve gets quality items in high quantities and for less than if they had to outsource the designs or hire a full in-house design team. Workshop members get an opportunity to make real money (enough to live on and do well, in theory) and expand their portfolio. Players get a regular stream of content to enjoy.

Where is the weakness in that system? Why would they want to move away from it? It's been working well for nearly a decade, going back to TF2.

Valve just needs to give these people their fuckin money. I'm furious at the very principle of the matter.
 

Sibylus

Banned
What?

And also there is the challenge of how you hold an economy together. Give a much larger percentage profit to such cosmetics and they will make more than the staff working on the game per content being created (which some already do), who would be better served actually just being another workshop artist. This has been discussed at length a ton.
Flat structure, self-directing, we love the community pixie-dusting utopia ring any bells for you?

Challenge in managing an economy? Sure. And it's going to be that much more challenging squeezing your primary content creators for more content and even less of a sustainable recompense. It already wasn't at 25%, outside of superstars who got in early. Now Valve is carving out an even larger share as though they or the game needed it. It's fucking immoral, even outside the practical considerations of grinding your faithful contributors down into even smaller, even more embittered crumbs. Fuck Valve, and fuck capitalism too for good measure. This whole thing smacks of greed.
 

dhonk

Member
Hey guys they pretty much did this to Team Fortress 2 too. But no one really dared to speak up. Its been about 2 years of this shit for TF2. It has pretty much made me quit making TF2 items, its no longer sustainable.

source: I have 30+ self mades in Team Fortress 2
 
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