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[ViewtifulJC]

You're right, they give us flawed games with great ideas that the industry grabs hold of and makes future games as a whole better. Bioshock's shooting was jank but its impact on the storytelling of FPSes can't be denied. The Elder Scrolls games have had plenty of problems but they've demonstrated the value of an open-world approach.

It's important to have "proof of concept" games because it lets the next game run with the idea and make it better. Mark my words, Dishonored's Blink is going to change the way games approach movement in 3D spaces, and I can't wait.

Is the new Wolfenstein going to bring anything new to the table? We can't say yet. But the trailer makes it look completely derivative, and I can't blame Spector for being grumpy about it.

Again, I value a game being good over it being new. If it's new AND good, more power to you(and there's even MORE reason for the industry to grab hold onto it, because we see it works!), but I don't spend $60 bucks on "proof of concept" games that aren't fun to experience but are "interesting". Great ideas aren't shit if you can't make something worthwhile with them.

Case in point: The Walking Dead vs Heavy Rain. Both are "cinematic" story heavy games with only the most basic and rudimentary gameplay on your part, but one has great writing/voice acting/characters/drama, and the other was like aliens disguised as humans acting like aliens, voiced by Europeans trying to be Americans. One succeed, one failed. I value and look forward to what Telltale does next, and I don't have any interest in Beyond since it looks like more of the same.

But there are plenty of people who go on about, "Well, we should support this kind of thing because it's new and it's not another cinematic action shooter blah blah blah", regardless if it's not a very GOOD kind of new thing.

I don't buy tickets for that train

 

[Risette]

I doubt that, I think he's just reached the tipping point of being fed up with so much attention and money being given to such a narrow spectrum of games that really aren't all that interesting.

Why not advocate for more interesting things? Attacking things like this is entirely worthless.

 

[Basil]

I'd like to hear what he thinks it would need.

 

[Duallusion]

Reads like an average forum post I see here on GAF everyday, in one form or another. What's the big deal?

Oh, right, it's by Specter, a well-known developer. Sorry, let me try again.

how dares he have such a vulgar opinion!
you don't tell *me* what *I* deserve or don't deserve budy!
lol epic mickey 2
he's washed out anyway
boo!
hiss!

 

[nickp]

I'm going to go with Warren on this one. I'm not going to discount the game just because of a gravelly voice, but that contrived dialogue? The world definitely didn't need that "But they forgot about me" crap. I'll withhold further judgement until I see gameplay but after that teaser I'm finding it difficult to get excited.

Thank goodness they didn't bark at us to preorder the game at the end of the teaser.

 

[Of All Trades]

It's important to have "proof of concept" games because it lets the next game run with the idea and make it better. Mark my words, Dishonored's Blink is going to change the way games approach movement in 3D spaces, and I can't wait.

The problem with your line of argument is that Epic Mickey wasn't a proof of concept game, it was poorly-executed nostalgia-mining tripe. If you want to see a proof of concept FPS then play Miasmata - that's a game with some big ideas executed well and a lot of other elements executed poorly that wrap together to become a pretty unique experience, and entirely developed by two people. Where's Spector praising that?

I have more faith in former Starbreeze(?) devs to push gaming forward within the constraints of the oldest active FPS IP than I do Spector.

 

[lethial]

Warren Spectors neckbeard fanbase just went up.

 

[Paul Alexander]

Couldn't agree more, but it'd be nice to hear him laud amazing indies.

 

[marrec]

Couldn't agree more, but it'd be nice to hear him laud amazing indies.

I too would like to hear from him what FPS games he'd enjoy seeing more of.

(Besides Deus Ex... )

 

[Duane Cunningham]

But is that assertion regarding industry dominance accurate?

THAT'S what we should be discussing. Not how much Epic Mickey sucked.

And my answer, personally? I kind of think it is, yeah. I mean, it's a bummer that to the broad populace, video games = CoD and Halo and loads of derivative imitations with the same old really dramatic tough guy narrative.

BUT, on the other hand, I remember when we were drowning in shitty knockoff mascot platformers, too. Then 2D fighters had their era. Eventually it'll be something else.

As for this argument:

I learned something on GAF today.

So lets target his argument itself.

He's slandering a newly announced game after seeing one "teaser" trailer.

While we all are somewhat guilty of it on the web in some way or form, Nobody should ever get a pass for it and should be held accountable for their ignorance.

#Message

True. But I have a bad feeling we all know exactly what Bethesda is going to put out. Maybe we're/I'm wrong and Wolfenstein is going to completely bust open the FPS genre and bring us new gameplay innovations that we've never dreamed of, and be wildly original. It would be awesome to be wrong about this. If it it doesn't turn out to be exactly what Bulletstorm was lampooning, doesn't have a short campaign mode and a typical CoD copycat multiplayer mode and a bunch of dialogue straight out of mid-90's comic books... then hell yes. Sign me up.

 

[publicpwnerer]

Oh shit, Is the PS4 out?!!

We all know what to expect but there is always the benefit of the doubt. Wait till its overtly obvious before making such claims.

Spoiler

I do agree that the FPS formula is really stale though

Are the remarks premature? Sure they are.


But we're a cynical bunch, and surely he should be entitled to express his cynicism....it's pretty much all GAF does.

 

[SniperHunter]

words of a bitter old man

 

[Remachinate]

Again, I value a game being good over it being new. If it's new AND good, more power to you(and there's even MORE reason for the industry to grab hold onto it, because we see it works!), but I don't spend $60 bucks on "proof of concept" games that aren't fun to experience but are "interesting". Great ideas aren't shit if you can't make something worthwhile with them.

Case in point: The Walking Dead vs Heavy Rain. Both are "cinematic" story heavy games with only the most basic and rudimentary gameplay on your part, but one has great writing/voice acting/characters/drama, and the other was like aliens disguised as humans acting like aliens, voiced by Europeans trying to be Americans. One succeed, one failed. I value and look forward to what Telltale does next, and I don't have any interest in Beyond since it looks like more of the same.

But there are plenty of people who go on about, "Well, we should support this kind of thing because it's new and it's not another cinematic action shooter blah blah blah", regardless if it's not a very GOOD kind of new thing.

I don't buy tickets for that train

The problem is that, to return to the context of this thread, we don't know how good the new Wolfenstein will be. It could be fantastic, and it could be terrible. What's problematic is that regardless of quality, it's looking like more of the same.

You said that you welcome and prefer games that are new and good. Based on your Walking Dead/Heavy Rain example, you seem to agree that the value of a new approach like the character-driven emotional narrative experience of those two games is separate from the quality of the implementation in-game. Wouldn't you agree, then, that if Machine Games is capable of delivering a quality game, that it would have been better for them to reveal a game that had something novel rather than something completely derivative?

The problem with your line of argument is that Epic Mickey wasn't a proof of concept game, it was poorly-executed nostalgia-mining tripe.

I'd argue it was more than that; it was attempting a marriage of a familiar brand with a new mechanic that would fit within that brand. The mechanic of using a illustrating tool (the brush) to shape and alter an illustrated world is an interesting one in my opinion. That it fell short is a shame, but who knows? Maybe it'll inspire a motion-control drawing game that's actually good down the line.

 

[Of All Trades]

THAT'S what we should be discussing. Not how much Epic Mickey sucked.

And my answer, personally? I kind of think it is, yeah. I mean, it's a bummer that to the broad populace, video games = CoD and Halo and loads of derivative imitations with the same old really dramatic tough guy narrative.

Ok, how many games in the last 12 months fit that criteria? You can expand outside of FPS if you'd like.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

The problem is that, to return to the context of this thread, we don't know how good the new Wolfenstein will be. It could be fantastic, and it could be terrible. What's problematic is that regardless of quality, it's looking like more of the same.

You said that you welcome and prefer games that are new and good. Based on your Walking Dead/Heavy Rain example, you seem to agree that the value of a new approach like the character-driven emotional narrative experience of those two games is separate from the quality of the implementation in-game. Wouldn't you agree, then, that if Machine Games is capable of delivering a quality game, that it would have been better for them to reveal a game that had something novel rather than something completely derivative?

The game should be whatever the hell the developers wanted it to be. This is the same line of thinking that lead to that misguided "Bioshock Infinite shouldn't been a shooter" argument last month.

If this is the game they're making, I assume it's because they think they can make a quality product doing EXACTLY THIS, and not non-linear open world prison simulator or whatever.

If the game is bad, people will criticize it; hell I'll criticize it. But it will be criticism about what it does and doesn't do well, not what it was never trying to be. That's just lazy, quite frankly. It's like going to a summer blockbuster and getting angry that it's not an European art film instead.

 

[Dysun]

Good thing the world disagrees with you.

WiiU sales would indicate otherwise

 

[SolsticeZero]

Funny how things have changed

 

[bhlaab]

Warren gets to be quiet after Epic Mickey's travesty.

I'm excited for this, I've always loved Wolfenstein.

Warren Spector gets to talk shit for the rest of his life because of Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Thief, Deus Ex, Serpent Isle...

He's slandering a newly announced game after seeing one "teaser" trailer.

To be fair, it is a very creatively bankrupt teaser trailer. And concept. And desecration of Hendrix.

The game will probably be at the very least passably fun.

 

[Remachinate]

The game should be whatever the hell the developers wanted it to be. This is the same line of thinking that lead to that misguided "Bioshock Infinite shouldn't been a shooter" argument last month.

If this is the game they're making, I assume it's because they think they can make a quality product doing EXACTLY THIS, and not non-linear open world prison simulator or whatever.

If the game is bad, people will criticize it; hell I'll criticize it. But it will be criticism about what it does and doesn't do well, not what it was never trying to be. That's just lazy, quite frankly. It's like going to a summer blockbuster and getting angry that it's not an European art film instead.

Don't we have a right as consumers to demand more ambition though? To use your analogy, there's nothing wrong with summer blockbusters, but I don't think it's unreasonable to want more The Dark Knight and less Thor.

 

[Pyrrhus]

I can't think of anything that is more of an adolescent male power fantasy than a ye-olde-knights-and-dragons RPG, but that's what Spector made his name on before doing the game about the invincible cyborg badass. Why is he begrudging anyone for making adolescent male power fantasies? He needs to pick his targets more carefully or this is what people are going to remember him for instead of Ultima and Deus Ex.

 

[Raven77]

I'd much rather having something along the lines of Epic Mickey then another generic FPS.

For sure. Agree completely BUT we don't know if it will be generic. Maybe it will be an incredible game.

 

[Omegasquash]

The way he said it comes off aggressive and old and bitter, but there's an important point buried under all that.

The question should be: Do we need another Wolfenstein game if it's more of the same type of gameplay? That's a dangerous question to ask though, asking to justify any type of entertainment is kind of a moot point.

Sorry for the lag response...meetings do that. Anyway, I'd actually like it more if he had asked the question, any question really, in a way that wasn't so trite. I'm glad the Destructoid piece cleared it up a bit, but the tone of disrespect (granted, that's subjective) combined with the snide remark about power fantasies just undermines his earned position of authority in the industry. Sort of sad to see him go all "cranky old man" this past year.

 

[Raptomex]

Epic Mickey. His opinions are invalid.

 

[bro1]

Don't we have a right as consumers to demand more ambition though? To use your analogy, there's nothing wrong with summer blockbusters, but I don't think it's unreasonable to want more The Dark Knight and less Thor.

First, I really liked Thor.

Second, I don't want an entire summer of Woody Allen films. I like my occasional Transformers/G.I.Joe along with Midnight in Paris every now and then.

 

[Tarsul]

Although I agree with his opinion on a personal level (= i don't need Wolfenstein), I have to say that if the market does not reject this game then he has no right to say that the world doesnt need this game.

Additionally, we all know his opinions about "generic" games nowadays, so his ramblings are just tiring especially since he has to prove himself again after the Mickey disasters.

So to sum it up: Developers are free to try the same old formula for as long as it works and whoever wants to try something new has the chance to try it in a low budget and/or kickstarter form. So we don't need cynicsm anymore!

 

[faceless007]

First, I really liked Thor.

Second, I don't want an entire summer of Woody Allen films. I like my occasional Transformers/G.I.Joe along with Midnight in Paris every now and then.

The problem with the gaming industry is that it's almost entirely Transformers and almost no Midnight in Paris.

God forbid the ratio even begin to move in the other direction.

 

[Harlock]

Just go fuck yourself, warren spector.

 

[AColdDay]

I totally agree with him. I don't actually begrudge the fact that Wolfenstein exists, I just wish there was more variety.

 

[Ghost Dad the Whip]

Warren Spector?... C'mon son!

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Don't we have a right as consumers to demand more ambition though? To use your analogy, there's nothing wrong with summer blockbusters, but I don't think it's unreasonable to want more The Dark Knight and less Thor.

Thor wasn't as good as TDK, but it never trying to be the TDK, and that tone and type of dark, cynical, convoluted storytelling seems at odds with a fish-out-of-water fantasy film. It's failings were of it's own wrongdoing, like how there isn't even an antagonist to create drama until the third act of the film, or the completely pedestrian way they went about setting up and presenting the origin story, or the sleepy Hopkins performance that looked like he's just getting that paycheck and going to bed.

Wolfenstein is not trying to be Deus Ex or Dishonored, it's trying to be Wolfenstein. Who knows how good or bad that could be. I don't, you don't, certainly Warren doesn't. Probably not something that's gonna rock the industry, but it never claimed it was, and that's ok. It could just be an entertaining, well-made, polished shooter about blowing away sci-fi supernazis. It could be a generic piece of shit. It's not like this is the only game being made here. If you don't like this kind of thing, there are literally thousands of other choices you could invest in.

 

[shinobi602]

I totally agree with him. I don't actually begrudge the fact that Wolfenstein exists, I just wish there was more variety.

The variety of games that exist today are absolutely monstrous, what do you mean?

 

[Majanew]

The variety of games that exist today are absolutely monstrous, what do you mean?

They stopped existing when Wolfenstein: The New Order was announced. Keep up, buddy!

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Ok, how many games in the last 12 months fit that criteria? You can expand outside of FPS if you'd like.

Oh... I don't know. The only thing I've played in the last few months that I really love is Guacamelee, and that's definitely derivative in terms of gameplay. It's practically a tribute to Super Metroid. But at least it has a fresh, original presentation. Nobody sees it and confuses it with anything else. AND actually, the more I think about it, it does refine that genre really nicely by streamlining it. So actually, that's a pretty good example for me.

I realize that a truly groundbreaking game isn't really something that happens often. But damn, the FPS genre is just the same old thing these days.

 

[Herbspiceguy]

I read that as: "I don't like a certain game/genre, so the world shouldn't either", which is just bullshit.
Personally I'm not interested in modern FPS's, and I probably won't touch this Wolfenstein game, yet I think there's a place for any kind of game if there is a market for it.
I think he's just frustrated that his Epic Mickey's didn't have the success he thought they would have and that Junction Point is no more.

 

[Pyrrhus]

The problem with the gaming industry is that it's almost entirely Transformers and almost no Midnight in Paris.

God forbid the ratio even begin to move in the other direction.

The movie industry is mostly Transformers, too.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

the suggestion that there are too many of the type of game he's assuming this will be, could also be said about plenty of other game types.

do we need ANOTHER pinball game?
do we need ANOTHER (think they are being)quirky/clever puzzle game that's just a variant of other established games such as bejeweled?
do we need ANOTHER game where you race cars?
do we need ANOTHER baseball game?
do we need ANOTHER Epic Mickey after the first flopped?

the market is expanding, and with that expansion comes niche's and devs ability to cater to them.

 

[Meccanical]

Again, I value a game being good over it being new. If it's new AND good, more power to you(and there's even MORE reason for the industry to grab hold onto it, because we see it works!), but I don't spend $60 bucks on "proof of concept" games that aren't fun to experience but are "interesting". Great ideas aren't shit if you can't make something worthwhile with them.

Case in point: The Walking Dead vs Heavy Rain. Both are "cinematic" story heavy games with only the most basic and rudimentary gameplay on your part, but one has great writing/voice acting/characters/drama, and the other was like aliens disguised as humans acting like aliens, voiced by Europeans trying to be Americans. One succeed, one failed. I value and look forward to what Telltale does next, and I don't have any interest in Beyond since it looks like more of the same.

But there are plenty of people who go on about, "Well, we should support this kind of thing because it's new and it's not another cinematic action shooter blah blah blah", regardless if it's not a very GOOD kind of new thing.

I don't buy tickets for that train

 

[kodt]

You guys actually think this game will be good?

 

[Tummi Gummi]

Warren Spector gets to talk shit for the rest of his life because of Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Thief, Deus Ex, Serpent Isle...

He gets credit for things he barely had anything to do with?

 

[Kuroyume]

What a bozo. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it should exist. Love these knuckleheads complaining about FPS games all the time like that's literaly the only games being made these days. As if you have no other options. Just stupid.

 

[SneakyStephan]

As long as it has ww2 era weapons I'd play it, it's modern bullethose era shooters that are a dime a dozen, ww2 shooters haven't been a dime a dozen since 2003

 

[plagiarize]

Thor wasn't as good as TDK, but it never trying to be the TDK, and that tone and type of dark, cynical, convoluted storytelling seems at odds with a fish-out-of-water fantasy film. It's failings were of it's own wrongdoing, like how there isn't even an antagonist to create drama until the third act of the film, or the completely pedestrian way they went about setting up and presenting the origin story, or the sleepy Hopkins performance that looked like he's just getting that paycheck and going to bed.

Wolfenstein is not trying to be Deus Ex or Dishonored, it's trying to be Wolfenstein. Who knows how good or bad that could be. I don't, you don't, certainly Warren doesn't. Probably not something that's gonna rock the industry, but it never claimed it was, and that's ok. It could just be an entertaining, well-made, polished shooter about blowing away sci-fi supernazis. It could be a generic piece of shit. It's not like this is the only game being made here. If you don't like this kind of thing, there are literally thousands of other choices you could invest in.

your posts have been excellent. my issue with Warren's statement remains with his assertion that the world doesn't need a certain type of game. it belittles those that like it and those that make it.

that's the point people saying 'the world doesn't need epic mickey' are making though. it's not an adhominem attack. it's highlighting that the truth of warren's statement is one that isn't really saying anything.

it's true, yes. and yet people would still like a new Wolfenstein game. so who gives a shit if the World Needs another one? Since when that was a standard for what entertainment and art should be produced?

I didn't need RTCW. Yet when I played it, I liked it, and I was glad for its existence.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

The world didn't need Epic Mickey, either

Pretty much this. I can't say I'm shitting my pants for Wolfenstein, but Spector constantly strikes me as someone akin to John Carmack or Peter Molyneux; old boys of the industry who have fuck-all worthwhile to say because they haven't made anything decent in a long, long time.

And the guy fucked up a potentially huge Mickey revival with his bullshit N64 platformer, so naturally as a Disney fan I'm not very fond of him.

 

[AlexBasch]

Again, I value a game being good over it being new. If it's new AND good, more power to you(and there's even MORE reason for the industry to grab hold onto it, because we see it works!), but I don't spend $60 bucks on "proof of concept" games that aren't fun to experience but are "interesting". Great ideas aren't shit if you can't make something worthwhile with them.

Case in point: The Walking Dead vs Heavy Rain. Both are "cinematic" story heavy games with only the most basic and rudimentary gameplay on your part, but one has great writing/voice acting/characters/drama, and the other was like aliens disguised as humans acting like aliens, voiced by Europeans trying to be Americans. One succeed, one failed. I value and look forward to what Telltale does next, and I don't have any interest in Beyond since it looks like more of the same.

But there are plenty of people who go on about, "Well, we should support this kind of thing because it's new and it's not another cinematic action shooter blah blah blah", regardless if it's not a very GOOD kind of new thing.

I don't buy tickets for that train

This reminded me of the "should we buy Remember Me based on principle" thread or whatever it was called. Good post.

 

[Chance Hale]

You guys actually think this game will be good?

I'm hoping it will be given Machine Games is developing it, who I believe are most of the original Starbreeze team behind the Darkness and Riddick game which still stand out day amongst the genre for their ambition and world building.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Warren Spector is older, more cynical.

He is relevant enough for me for his involvement with Ultima Underworld.

 

[Zaventem]

He's not speaking for anyone but himself, though...

I did'nt know "the world" had a secondary meaning.

 

[daxgame]

Warren has my utmost respect here

 

[PatientRain]

Pretty brazen remark coming from the creator of Epic Mickey 2.

 

[McHuj]

I don't get why the game elicited such a strong response from him. This comes across as pretty bitter.