Support NeoGAF

[goldenpp72]

It's a mixture of having legitimate talent, but also having the pressure to sell an actual platform rather than just itself i'm sure. Basically, if Zelda didn't shape up well they would probably delay it until it did because of it being important, it allows users to be generally confident in the game and keep buying their hardware.

It's just a different business model really.

 

[tareqsalah1]

Thier unwillingness to follow trends or whats (selling) and not to listen to media and financial experts telling them what to do.

They insist on always thinking out side the box and continue to put fun and gameplay above all.

 

[LordRaptor]

Twilight Princess, MM, all the ds zeldas are not high quality games.

Majoras Mask is what Shenmue would be if it was fun

 

[pagrab]

I think that it is simply nostalgia. Coming from a country in which Nintendo never was dominant I am at pains understanding the praise their games get. I believe that they make really great games, don't get me wrong, but many people from the US act as if these games were in a league of their own and this is hard for me to understand.

 

[Strangelove77]

It's magic. Nintendo magic.

 

[axisofweevils]

In each generation, Nintendo games are typically some of the highest regarded. They make good games with an insane amount of polish. Look how long Zelda took to get here.

 

[ArtHands]

They focus on gameplay.

 

[LizardKing]

I have to admit Nintendo did drop the ball plenty of times this gen tough.

Metroid Prime Federation Force
StarFox Zero
Paper Mario Sticker Star and Color Splash
Amiibo Festival
Yoshi New Island

All of these are complete trash. and yes Color Splash has charm but that is all it has. The Gameplay so shallow that the game has no point to it.

Sad part is Miyamoto himself is probably directly responsible for half of those (SS, CS, SF), and indirectly responsible for the rest ( "From now on, it becomes a matter of if we can use our experience efficiently and one part of our plan to do so is to use ‘spin off games', which allow us to use our major title franchises, but create on a smaller scale and we are working hard on making these sort of derived products.") At least they've told him to go ahead and sit down.

 

[Celine]

Company philosophy, pool of talent and money.

EDIT:
Also being an hardware manufacturer insulate them away from the market trends and give them more room to fulfill their own vision (on the opposite side if a platform is a failure all their software sales on it will be constrained).

 

[Justin Bailey]

There isn't one thing. That's the thing.

 

[gamerMan]

Nostalgia is a big, big factor. A lot of times Nintendo gets away with flaws that others would be chastise for. Look at BoTW for an example..

Of course nostalgia plays a big factor because the Zelda series has some of the biggest landmark games in the history of video games. Nintendo is probably the only company that can reinvent a series for 30 years.

People will never forget the first time they played a Link To The Past or Ocarina of Time. These games were amazing. If a game manages to capture that same sense of euphoria that those games did, you are going to forget about the faults. This game is not getting amazing scores because of the Zelda name, it is because Nintendo threw out all the conventions about a Zelda game, yet still managed to capture the feeling you got when you first played Zelda. That's hard to do especially after 30 years.

Every publication has said something about the frame rate dipping, and in some places dipping hard. You'd think something that affects the core gameplay would make a game not a perfect, but you'd be wrong since it's zelda.

At framerate doesn't stop a game from scoring high. I seem to remember Grand Theft Auto 5 on Ps3 and PS4 dropping frames left and right, but critics still scored that game high.

 

[i-Jest]

What is universally fun for all ages I guess. 2-4 player offline is something a lot of us growing up really liked. It just added to the experience of playing videogames. Having developers integrate what is fun and what is universally fun into their development philosophy, in a continuous cycle of refinement, only makes for the most memorable games I think. This helps to create staying power for Nintendo's intellectual Property.

That's just my consumers perspective anyway.

 

[D.Lo]

This video is good
https://t.co/QZCdGQTD9U

Wow, great video.

Splatoon is such a perfect example of Nintendo design philosophy. The came up with fun mechanics then built a world and story and artwork around them that matched the mechanics.

It's like how great sci-fi comes up with a new idea, then creates a world and characters and plot to explore that idea.

 

[whalleywhat]

Taking the time. Having the confidence in doing their own thing and following through on ideas. Talent. Probably a lot of the same reasons they put out some stinkers.

 

[MDave]

Denatonium Benzoate.

 

[Nanashrew]

That sounds great... in theory.

How is this applicable at all to say, Zelda?

I don't see it.

They liked the ability to become a painting and cling to walls but they needed a way to justify the mechanic. Thus Yuga was created.

Form follows function. That's their gameplay first mentality.

 

[Nepenthe]

I think there's a value of the innocence and fun for fun's sake that used to define games and gaming culture of old that still permeates Nintendo in an age where games seem defined by an ironically infantile need to grow up with their audience. Nintendo is not the only developer that employs good talent, makes gaming systems that feel good, thinks outside of the box, or even all three at once. But they are one of the few who takes a moment to add little touches or scenarios for no other reason than because the game, and subsequently the developers, feel the need to either remind you to mind your manners, to poke you in the ribs, or to just have fun without coming off as try-hard or ashamed of the medium. Stuff like being told by an NPC in Super Paper Mario to say "Thank you" an arbitrary number of times, or being scolded for ruffling through people's items in Skyward Sword- these kinds of touches adds an almost parental comfort to the games, as if they've had a life of their own before you've played them.

Perhaps that's just me bullshitting, but it's these kinds of moments in Nintendo games today make me roll my eyes but still smile. And that's what games are ultimately for, right? To bring happiness.

 

[Khalifa Jayy]

literally the exact opposite of Nintendo's design philosophy - it's been well documented, even in this thread from that YT clip a few pages back

Well documented or not, that's impossible in the case of Zelda.

 

[jdstorm]

I think that it is simply nostalgia. Coming from a country in which Nintendo never was dominant I am at pains understanding the praise their games get. I believe that they make really great games, don't get me wrong, but many people from the US act as if these games were in a league of their own and this is hard for me to understand.

That seems to superficial of an answer. Nostalgia explains the current love for many games that set standards the industry follows but have since become less special as what they created has been refined through itteration.

Its sort of like watching Star Wars (1977) or Empire Strikes back now. Special effects have moved on, stunt choreography has moved on, and most know the story beats before they see them. It doesnt make the films not revolutionary at the time. They are just relics some of which have seen better days.

It also doesnt explain the new games Nintendo bring out that are loved for continuing to innovate and staying gameplay focused. These games are ultimately new and mostly different to previous titles.

The only Nostalgia Goggles title Nintendo has released is Mario Kart 8. Every other game stands on its own merits for the most part

 

[sfried]

Nintendium. Duh.

It makes their consoles indestructible. But supplies have been running short since the WiiU era. Fortunately the main bodiy of the Switch (minus the kickstand) contain at least 90-99% Nintendium.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Nostalgia and polish. Nintendo are trash at hardware, online solutions and basically everything that isn't game development. I don't really like or care about their games myself, more often than not I am put off by their games, but they do make very polished games.

 

[Tarextherex]

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2017/03/02/the-legend-of-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-review



http://www.gameinformer.com/games/t...f-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-switch-review.aspx



http://www.polygon.com/2017/3/2/147...eath-of-the-wild-review-nintendo-switch-wii-u



People give any other developer shit if a game is 30fps, even if stable, let's not even get into what people would say if other games every dip under it.

I said video, so far I haven't seen any footage of fighting enemies in busy forests resulting in drops that are remotely close to PS3 blighttown

They made a game with already near-universal appeal but your attempt to refute it is by taking already flawed arguments from nitpicking nerds that started that whole 60fps or nothing garbage based on their gaming pcs being more powerful than consoles or some shit while open world games on console barely even had stable 30. Plus BOTW seems to have unparalleled scale and interactions, that's why they still give the game 10s despite technical hiccups

 

[Ghgghggh]

"If you wanna be me u need a manifesto. If u ain't got one u Better get one presto" - MIA

Nintendo has a core philosophy that guided their game development. I think this belief system is what makes them incredible. It is also the reason they march to the best of their own drums and piss off hardcore gamers at times.

 

[Mory Dunz]

what's the premise of this thread exactly?

people get weird around big launches that's for sure

 

[Ghgghggh]

The premise is understanding how Nintendo redefines gaming every few years for the last 30 years...

MARIO Bros
Donkey Kong
Zelda I
Super Mario World
Zelda LTTP
Super MARIO Kart
Super Metroid
Pokémon
Mario 64
Ocarina of Time
Smash Bros Melee
Metroid Prime
Touch Generstion Games
Wii Sports
MARIO Galaxy 1 + 2
Pokémon Go
Zelda Breath is the Wild (?? I hope so. It seems so)

What defining or redefining games am I missing ?

 

[Chill Penguin]

It's hard to say exactly what that Nintendo magic is, otherwise everyone would be doing it. I would say that it includes polish, creativity, charm, and peerless game design. I think they just understand what makes a game compelling better than anyone. That balance between tension and reward, being able to dangle that carrot that just makes us happily chase after it. It's immediately apparent how much care and attention to detail goes into their games.

Their really big hitters however, seem to examine game design in their current state and turn it on its head and revolutionize it. They redefine the genre and become the new benchmark. Mario 1 with 2d side scrollers, Mario 64 with 3d platformers, Zelda OOT with 3d adventure, and now apparently Zelda BotW with open world.

 

[Jintor]

Mushrooms

 

[Fug Slanderson]

Experience combined with emphasis on solid gameplay mechanics and a desire to innovate.

 

[sazzy]

Someone share Nintendo's "special ingredient" with their hardware department please.

 

[Raiden]

Policy and raw talent? They made some of the best looking games on an underpowered console(compared to PS4 and One)

 

[Toxi]

Nintendium. Duh.

It makes their consoles indestructible. But supplies have been running short since the WiiU era. Fortunately the main bodiy of the Switch (minus the kickstand) contain at least 90-99% Nintendium.

I miss the days when dropping a Nintendo console on concrete made the concrete shatter.

 

[MarkRenton]

Mushrooms

thats it

 

[jman2050]

If I had to pick one practical element of their game development philosophy that leads to their consistent quality, I'd point to their relentless and borderline obsessive use of prototyping.

Their top tier games don't just come out of nowhere in a flash of magic inspiration, they do a LOT of testing and go through a LOT of trial and error to figure out what works and what doesn't and form a cohesive vision from the results that they can execute.

 

[travisbickle]

It's not nostalgia, it's legacy.

Zelda/Mario/Super Metroid are like marvel universe movies in that a lot of the time if it's not good people ask "how did they fuck it up with such a breadth of history to build from".

Of course they have exceptionally talented designers but they also have more ideas in the waste paper baskets of Nintendo HQ from having these IPs for 30 odd years, than most other developers have had hot dinners.

Plus I feel there's a bit of "If I asked the public what they wanted they would say faster horses" at Nintendo where I feel other Pubs/Devs are happy to kowtow to public demand.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

I have to admit Nintendo did drop the ball plenty of times this gen tough.

Metroid Prime Federation Force
StarFox Zero
Paper Mario Sticker Star and Color Splash
Amiibo Festival
Yoshi New Island

All of these are complete trash. and yes Color Splash has charm but that is all it has. The Gameplay so shallow that the game has no point to it.

Sad part is Miyamoto himself is probably directly responsible for half of those (SS, CS, SF), and indirectly responsible for the rest ( "From now on, it becomes a matter of if we can use our experience efficiently and one part of our plan to do so is to use ‘spin off games', which allow us to use our major title franchises, but create on a smaller scale and we are working hard on making these sort of derived products.") At least they've told him to go ahead and sit down.

In the position of General Manager, both Miyamoto and his successor (Shinya Takahashi, as of September 2015) face the challenges of maximizing efficiency of software development, given the finite resources (unoccupied internal staff, dormant major franchises, etc.) available to them, and they will both tend to use concepts like ‘balance' and ‘efficiency', as you can see from these statements from both Miyamoto and Takahashi.

One thing to note is that in this position (up until September 2015) as General Manager, Miyamoto/Nintendo did not hesitate to sign off on iterative sequels (to games like Splatoon, New Super Mario Bros, Mario Kart, etc.), where the existing gameplay formula was judged to be sufficient for success (as judged in large part by the sales of previous titles in the franchise), and where changes to the gameplay formula were not judged to be necessary for success.

This is in contrast to other franchises, where the sales of previous titles were not judged to be sufficient (Paper Mario among them), and where people are far too quick to attribute Miyamoto's decision to change things up to something particular and inflexible about Miyamoto's personal philosophy: the truth is that if the previous Paper Mario titles had sold to expectations (given the internal resources allocated to their development), the question of changing the formula simply would never have come up.

Likewise, given that large amounts of internal staff/resources are already allocated to those projects which are predicted to have greater sales/creative growth potential, you have the possibility of 'spin off' titles (with their relatively smaller allocation of internal staff/resources), with respect to those franchises that are judged to have relatively lower potential for sales/creative growth. In summary:

Someone mentioned this but...

The last "tea table upending" I remember Miyamoto doing is this:

[...]

ALBW was originally supposed to be a bunch of bite sized mini dungeons before Miyamoto told them to start over and make it a game like LttP... and the focus was on showing off the hardware functionality, like with Star Fox. Stuff like this, or the thing quoted earlier in the thread where Miyamoto actually did oversee and approve the Splatoon designs that Kyle [Bosman] implied that Miyamoto would hate and veto because he's an old dumb-dumb, is what gets me about trying to turn Miyamoto into a living avatar of old outdated ideas: every bad idea has to be his direct fault, and every good idea he has to have nothing to do with, even though he supervises like every internally made Nintendo game. If there's something you loved about one of those, Miyamoto at the very least probably signed off on it; he wasn't tricked or forced, you just didn't get a news story about it.

 

[MikeyB]

Tribal loyalism.

Brand communities and consumer tribes mixed with confirmation bias.

 

[Perineum]

It's the Blizzard formula. Pure crack cocaine gameplay is the focus, and everything else comes second.

 

[phanphare]

If I had to pick one practical element of their game development philosophy that leads to their consistent quality, I'd point to their relentless and borderline obsessive use of prototyping.

Their top tier games don't just come out of nowhere in a flash of magic inspiration, they do a LOT of testing and go through a LOT of trial and error to figure out what works and what doesn't and form a cohesive vision from the results that they can execute.

yeah the Iwata asks about Splatoon is really interesting in regards to how they prototype something and then once they hit on something they build a game around it

this is what Splatoon started out at as

two blocks shooting ink and claiming turf

 

[Tavernacle12]

I don't see how you can say that. I think the gameplay is derived from the tale they want to tell and the characters they'd like to introduce and utilize. From there, gameplay systems are created along with environment designs, feedback loops, etc.

Nintendo didn't design an open world, weapon variety, gameplay loop, etc., then say "let's throw Link and co. in there and make it a Zelda game."

They said, "Let's make a new Zelda game... how should we go about that?"

I'm not aware of any Zelda game that started as a story they wanted to tell. All of them are built around a core concept or gameplay. All of them start as a Zelda game, but they didn't go 'I want to tell a story about how Hyrule flooded' they went 'wouldn't it be cool if you could sail around different islands!' Skyward Sword exists because they wanted the gameplay of 1:1 sword fighting. Majora's Mask is built around the function of reusing assets in unique ways. BOTW is built around the idea of doing literally anything you wanted. Zelda as a series is built on its gameplay. The gameplay always comes first. Yeah, they're Zelda games, so Link, Zelda, and Ganon usually have to be in there somewhere, but as BOTW (and Majora, Link's Awakening, and Four Swords) proves that's nearly it.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

what's the premise of this thread exactly?

people get weird around big launches that's for sure

The premise is seemingly to have a big Nintendo circle-jerk. And from looking at the thread, that objective has been achieved.

Nintendo puts out some seriously high quality stuff. But let's not act like they don't put out average or even below-average games.

 

[Da-Kid]

They make great games because they treat games like inventions instead of conventions. They're always trying to do something new with their games, especially their new IP's. Look at Splatoon, it's built off of one mechanic yet the variety is wide. Sure it's a shooter, but can you say it's like any other shooter? No you cant, it doesn't play the same either.

Look at ARMS. They wanted to make a 3D Fighter with Shooter properties, you get a whole unique Fighter no one else could say they've done already.

 

[bionic77]

The premise is seemingly to have a big Nintendo circle-jerk. And from looking at the thread, that objective has been achieved.

Nintendo puts out some seriously high quality stuff. But let's not act like they don't put out average or even below-average games.

Other than Sega name a developer that has as many hits across so many genres?

I can't think of any company that even comes close.

 

[miller.skippins]

C'mon people...lay down the Koolaid. I know Zelda is getting unanimous critical acclaim now here and all but stop saying like only Nintendo is capable of doing it.

If anything else, Zelda is so critically acclaimed due to Nintendo's desperation. You don't see them creating games like this during the Wii days where they only cater to the casuals and incorporate forced handholding tutorials and motion control gimmicks just to entice the casuals, forgetting their 'core' audience. Also, are you forgetting all the forgetting software they released during the last 2 years of Wii U (excluding Smash Bros. and Splattoon)

Don't flame me, nintendo fans. The way i see it, the guys at nintendo developed Breath of the Wild using the same mentality when Sakaguchi developed the first Final Fantasy...i.e. All out double or nothing desperation.

Which, congratulations to them, works out in the end.

 

[Ghgghggh]

The premise is seemingly to have a big Nintendo circle-jerk. And from looking at the thread, that objective has been achieved.

Nintendo puts out some seriously high quality stuff. But let's not act like they don't put out average or even below-average games.

The discussion is not about If all Nintendo games are gold. This is not even the point of the discussion.

Example of how you missed the point of the OP:

OP: What is that special something that allowed George Lucas make an amazing original trilogy?

You: yes the original trilogy is some seriously high quality stuff but let's not act like he didn't put out the average or even below aversge prequels.

The existence of crappy Nintendo games does not negate their consistent output of industry defining games.

 

[Da-Kid]

I think we can also say that Nintendo has one of the biggest library of recognizable and objectively unique characters with timeless and inspired designs that can clearly be identified as "Nintendo".

Only rivaled by Disney's cast of characters, and Warner Bros. Looney Tunes.

 

[NHarmonic.]

They give a shit about the customer and don't have colossal egos.

That's generally reversed everywhere else.

Give a shit for the customer? No colossal ego? I wonder in which dimension do you exist.


And yeah, let's remember wii music guys. Such a quality game.

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

They just make good games.

 

[oneofthose]

They focus on gameplay rather than graphics / cinematic experience.

 

[USC Trojan]

I heard they have a high retention rate.

 

[Nostremitus]

I was just about to link to this video.

Me too, lol.