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What makes a perfect RPG?

Just one thing mostly: Atmosphere. I can live with underdeveloped gameplay, even a simple story, I want likeable characters, varied towns and places, good music, and that might be even enough for me.

For that reason I like a lot of the JRPGs other may consider as overly traditional, silly or even bad.
 
Only one person mentioned DDS. I am sad.

DDS has THE perfect implementation of a turn-based system (iirc it has a tiny thing over Nocturne) - it's quick, easy, you can auto-fight (so fights go quick) and you get rewards for killing the enemies quickly (more cash).

The Press Turn system I think is the most developed and deep system for turn-based battles.
- Random battles that go on quick thanks to the game rewarding wiping the enemies in fewer turns
- Status effects that are useful (some enemies in the last dungeons are weak to instant-death magic, others to sleep, poison, etc) so that you actually have to use ALL of your abilities at some point in time
- Full customization of your abilities; YOU decide who has what at any time
- Non-linear skills progression

DDS is also a perfect jRPG. For every boss, you need to abuse the hell out of the Press Turn system; you need to know their elemental weaknesses, make sure you can do criticals, etc. The dungeons are well-designed; usually huge mazes (DDS1's last dungeon is freaky good) with many twists and turns. Optional bosses that bring something to the game. DDS1's last boss that you can't overlevel to beat (even if you're level 99 with everything unlocked, you still need a strategy going into the fight, otherwise you'll die quickly). The only RPG series I've played where the 2nd game is an immediate sequel to the first one - to boot, you lose all your skills, and it makes TOTAL sense.

DDS1 is amazing for it's voice acting - in relation to the story, the characters start bland and gradually develop their own personalities. The voice acting reflects that - at first, they are all played in very static monotone, and as the story evolves they start to get feelings, their voices evolve to match their personalities and everything starts to make sense. It's amazing.
 
Graphics: 25%
Gameplay: 25%
Story: 25%
Sound: 25%

Yes, I demand balance. Sure, I buy some RPGs that aren't on the perfect spectrum, but I'll name a few that have fallen into that category, for me.

Panzer Dragoon Saga
Vagrant Story
Skies of Arcadia
Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy VI
Final Fantasy IV
The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
System Shock 2
Xenogears
 
dionysus said:
I would be very interested in what less famous rpgs exodu5 and nuke like, as I also share a love of story and can forgive bad gameplay.
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Less famous RPGs? Ummm.

Lufia 2 on the SNES is one of my favorites...though that's a polar opposite from what I usually like. Lufia 2 has incredible gameplay (some of the best RPG gameplay every, I might add), but a very mediocre story (lots of fetch quests).

You should definitely check out Dreamfall...it's not an RPG, but it's an easy adventure game (with almost no fighting), with incredibly story and presentation.

I have to admit though, I need to also find some more obscure titles with a great story.

I have yet to finish Suikoden III, but I thought the story and presentation were wonderful (I don't know where my game disc went to!), even though there were definitely some technical issues. I also need to try to get my hands on Xenogears, Suikoden II, Vagrant Story, and Valkyrie Profile 1.

Disgaea 1 and 2 have fun stories, and have a lot of humor, and I would have enjoyed the stories if they were isolated from the game. But then on top of that, you have some of the best SRPG gameplay, I just loved these games. They're technically very unimpressive though.

Planescape Torment is supposed to have one of the greatest RPG stories ever, but it's an old out of print PC game. I got my hands on a copy, but have yet to play it.

Sorry I can't be of much more help. The one thing Final Fantasy has on top of almsot every other RPG is presentation. Of course, this is probably due to a larger than average budget for their games.

I'm picking up Persona 3 later this month.
 
Proc said:
You're mental. Explain yourself.
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Obviously since you are a fan of great graphics and shitty everything else (as that's all Oblandion has to offer) I can scale my commentary down to your level.

Oblivion blows because not a single choice you make in the game has any real effect on the outcome. You can be headmaster of every single guild, arena champion, etc. and the most that happens is people will occasionally comment on your titles. There's no conflicting paths or choices to be made in the game, and no roleplaying at all.

Then we get to the combat, where you hold block, and then counter while your enemies are stunned, or just use overpowered magic. There is no sense of accomplishment even from leveling up, since everything in the game scales to your level.

NPCs are bland due to the game using like 7 voice actors to provide voices for every character except the emperor and his son.

You can change some of this if you add so many mods that they fundamentally redesign the game. It's kind of funny that it takes user-created content just to make Oblivion into an RPG, but there's only so much polish you can put on a turd. It sure is pretty, though!

I realize Oblivion is open-ended, but in an RPG you're supposed to have consequences and choices and roleplaying. None of that happens in Oblivion. I'd call it a sandbox game, but given the shit that game is filled with it's more like a litterbox.
 
ex0du5 said:
Planescape Torment is supposed to have one of the greatest RPG stories ever, but it's an old out of print PC game. I got my hands on a copy, but have yet to play it.
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Remedy this promptly, I beseech you.
 
First off, my personal definition of an RPG is a game with an interactive dialog system, or at least one where you make meaningful choices that affect the plot of the game, so that rules out 99% of "JRPG"s from even being RPGs, never mind perfect ones.

Beyond that, my answer as to what makes a perfect game is the same no matter what the genre. For non plot-heavy games, it's 100% gameplay. I would rather play Nethack then some shiny HD piece of crap. For plot-heavy games, I'd say it's an even split between gameplay and writing. Good writing can make up for poor gameplay (see Psychonauts or any Lucasarts adventure game) and likewise good gameplay can make up for bad writing (see any JRPG that doesn't suck).

Of course, to actually be perfect you need both good writing and good gameplay, thus the three RPGs I consider closest to perfect are Fallout 1/2, Planescape: Torment, and Deus Ex.
 
Fallout 1, 2
Torment
Deus Ex
KOTOR
System Shock 2
Vampire:Bloodlines


Games where you choices effect your character and the outcome
 
I really liked KotoR, FallOut, Pokemon and Secret of Mana, but I really disliked Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy. I think there needs to be a big world, or several big worlds, with not too much random battles and you must have some freedom in what you do, what choices to make (would be excellent if it effects the storyline, like in KotoR). Also, the game has to be pick up and play, I don't want to learn all these new words for items, money, weapons and other crap. Games like Pokemon and Secret of Mana aren't too big and don't take too much of your time, while DQ and FF do. My brother already spend like 80 hours in Dragon Quest, I don't have the patience for that.
 
I thought FF7 is about as perfect as an RPG gets imo. 8 was good, 9 was great, 10 had a good story minus the cheesy love scenes, never touched 10-2, and 12 just seemed really repetitive to me and I'm not a big fan of the autopilot battlesystem and character designs... Unfortunately, I never played the earlier ones (before 7) when they were released but I did play them afterwards in the anthology so I suspect if I played those first around the time they were released before I touched part 7 I might have a different opinion.
 
oldschlgmr said:
Unfortunately, I never played the earlier ones (before 7) when they were released but I did play them afterwards in the anthology so I suspect if I played those first around the time they were released before I touched part 7 I might have a different opinion.
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Old School Gamer...not...playing...FFs on...SNES...when...released???

Time Paradox!!!
 
firex said:
Obviously since you are a fan of great graphics and shitty everything else (as that's all Oblandion has to offer)
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I'm not sure what Oblandion is but I can assure you Oblivion is a great RPG and it is fun as hell.
 
Proc said:
I'm not sure what Oblandion is but I can assure you Oblivion is a great RPG that and it is fun as hell.
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It's borked. Morrowind is vastly superior, if we're talking about Bethesda's whacky whacky melee combat games. :P
 
Skilletor said:
Old School Gamer...not...playing...FFs on...SNES...when...released???

Time Paradox!!!
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I just wasn't into RPG's back then. Then I play part 7 and got hooked! Probably best things happened that way cause I had a nice selection of games that were already out that I could play and tide me over until the supposed next big thing came out.
 
Dragona Akehi said:
That's the sad thing: the Elder Scroll series has only ever been "good". Black Isle and Bioware have always consistently creamed Bethesda when it comes to Western RPGs.
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Meh, there is room for them both.
 
Dragona Akehi said:
That's the sad thing: the Elder Scroll series has only ever been "good". Black Isle and Bioware have always consistently creamed Bethesda when it comes to Western RPGs.
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To be fair, Bioware hasn't really done anything spectacular since the ending of the Baldur's Gate saga, KotOR was great and all but nothing that should put them over other western developers such as Troika (Arcanum) and Obsidian (Neverwinter Nights 2).

I'd go as far as saying that they are pretty much on the same level as Bethesta as it is now, since Morrowind, at least, was a really solid (if not spectacular) RPG.
 
In my opinion, the elements of a perfect RPG can mostly be summed up in two words. Planescape: Torment.

Seriously though, the most important thing in an RPG for me (and one of the few cases where I think everyone should agree with me, even though I know they don't), is that you actually get to role play. That doesn't mean watch while the characters go through lines of dialogue and then look at the fanart on DeviantArt. I actually want to decide what the characters do, and how they do it.

While a lot of Western RPGs allow this at the expense of an interesting story (the game above being the obvious exception), very few Japanese RPGs (I'm using this a description of style, not all Japanese RPGs actually come from Japan) allow any control over the character's actions, or goals. In exchange, they try and validate their entry into the RPG genre with two of the worst game mechanics ever devised: repetitive combat and unimportant statistics. With a few exceptions, I can call myself a master of, say, Final Fantasy just by pressing circle or x over and over when it comes to battles. I especially find it slightly hypocritical that a game like FFXII can be criticised for its repetitive nature when FFVII was just as repetitive (only with more tedium resulting from the thirty seconds it took to load up battles every time one was trigger). Indeed, I felt that FFXII was the first game where the combat didn't get on my nerves, and I was finally able to actually take the time to explore everywhere, rather than bury my head in my hands every time the screen swirled or shattered and I was left fighting another group of random monsters.

In addition, it's always irritated me the way these games are described as stat-based RPGs. They're not, really, the only major difference is that you can confirm that each new weapon is indeed more powerful than the last one. Ultimately, if you remove all the window dressing, you're doing the same thing that you do in most action games (except with a less impressive battle system). That's not to say that I don't think that Japanese RPGs are very impressive in their own right - they often have extremely impressive visual and sound quality. Nor do I think that the definition of RPGs in video games should be restricted to the electronic equivalent of D&D: First Edition. But whenever I play a Western RPG I'm always far more excited by it, there's a feeling of immersiveness that just doesn't exist in Japanese games.

I know the resources to make this actually happen are far beyond even the largest development studios at this time, but a game combining the gameplay, immersiveness and, to some extent, innovation of a Western RPG and the story, visuals and music of a Japanese RPG would probably be the perfect RPG for me. It doesn't have to have ten different endings, but I do need some acknowledgement that the decisions I'm making affects the outcome of the game, and the way the game is played.
 
To clear things up I think all rpgs should strive to offer most of what these do and improve upon their strengths (notice how there is no oblivion :D ; I traded it in after my 360 crapped out and I lost my saves):
989759409_5018a0f458.jpg
 
Oddly, I also found Oblivion a little bit of a disappointment (though I generally keep quiet about it because I liked VtM:B. Despite it's horrific bugs and half completed state, I think Bloodlines was heading in a better direction towards the grail-like fusion of FPS and RPG than Oblivion was.)
 
ex0du5 said:
My main problem with DND though, is the lack of focus on the story, and the lack of presentation.
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....lol?


Planescape-torment-box.jpg


I'll also throw my vote in with the Western RPG crowd, too bad the genre isn't very popular.
 
Vaporak said:
I'll also throw my vote in with the Western RPG crowd, too bad the genre isn't very popular.
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Western RPGs, when they're reasonably bug-free and not too dumbed-down, actually have sold really well in the past. The PC Baldur's Gate games, Neverwinter Nights 1/2, and KOTOR were big hits, and even the supposedly niche Planescape: Torment ended up selling decently over time (at least around 300K copies, I believe).
 
An evolution of current Japanese trends IE. western RPG developers. Yes that makes the perfect rpg for current generation. Everything else falls into personal preference, which is fine. I occasionally enjoy a few Japanese rpgs but most bore me to death now.
 
Proc said:
I'm not sure what Oblandion is but I can assure you Oblivion is a great RPG and it is fun as hell.
Click to expand...
Oblivion is animal crossing without the furries, except you can actually make an impact on the game world in animal crossing even if it's just changing the landscape of your town. I'm sorry it offends you to have Oblivion called what it is (a steaming turd) but that's just the way the game turned out. Everything else Elder Scrolls is good/great, but Oblivion is dumbed down garbage for the dumbest people available, and if it came out when there wasn't a massive dry spell in 360 games it would've been trashed in reviews, as it should be.
 
Chairman Yang said:
Western RPGs, when they're reasonably bug-free and not too dumbed-down, actually have sold really well in the past. The PC Baldur's Gate games, Neverwinter Nights 1/2, and KOTOR were big hits, and even the supposedly niche Planescape: Torment ended up selling decently over time (at least around 300K copies, I believe).
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Oh I know there have been plenty of success stories about wRPG's selling, that doesn't change the fact that very few of them are made. :( I had hopped that the success of the few wRPG's that did get released last gen would convince more publishers that there's money in the genre, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Pretty much all the wRPG's of this gen (meaning both PC and consoles) are coming from the same handful of companies that made them last gen.
 
What did everyone think of NWN2? I played the first to death but never really got into the second one. It's since sat on my shelf, waiting for some love. I see there is an expansion coming up soon with some neat stuff. Should I reinstall it and give it a better shot now that I have little else to play?
 
Anno said:
What did everyone think of NWN2? I played the first to death but never really got into the second one. It's since sat on my shelf, waiting for some love. I see there is an expansion coming up soon with some neat stuff. Should I reinstall it and give it a better shot now that I have little else to play?
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I'm definitely going to take a looksy whenever I get around to upgrading my rig.
 
Anno said:
What did everyone think of NWN2? I played the first to death but never really got into the second one. It's since sat on my shelf, waiting for some love. I see there is an expansion coming up soon with some neat stuff. Should I reinstall it and give it a better shot now that I have little else to play?
Click to expand...

It's a solid game, it's much more of a single player game than it's predecessor (I didn't really enjoy the first one though), and it has a pretty solid story along with a great line-up of NPC's.

It has some optimization issues but with enough fiddling you should be able to get it to run with a decent rig.

You should definitely check it out if you are a fan of party-based (Baldur's Gate, IWD etc.) w-RPG's, since it's the best thing to come out of the genre since Arcanum.
 
Story - 35
Graphics - 5 (good graphics remain good for about 5 years at most)
Sound - 30 (a good soundtrack is timeless)
Gameplay - 30

Betrayal at Krondor has the best story. Mass Effect or Final Fantasy XIII wins the graphics category. Final Fantasy 2 (US), Morrowind, and Icewind Dale all have great soundtracks. Temple of Elemental Evil wins for best gameplay. And Baldur's Gate 2 is the best overall RPG ever made.
 
Why would it when that has no effect on the gameplay?

Again, we're talking about what's supposed to be a role playing game, and the game has like no role playing at all. All they had to do was make it so you had choices, like how in Morrowind you can get cut off from different households if you work enough for a competitor, or at least make accomplishments in the game feel like accomplishments, but they didn't.

On the technical side of things, it's a huge improvement over Morrowind, obviously. But when it comes to the actual game it felt like it was way too simplified. Level scaling, the way nothing you do really matters, and the rather dumb NPCs and incredibly homogenous worlds all made it really uninspired. It's fun to play like a GTA game and just dick around with the physics and killing people, but I could do that (well, minus the physics) in Morrowind too.

That's not to say the game is completely without fun, but I only had fun when I modded the hell out of the PC version and basically made it a lot more like Morrowind, plus added in some random crazy stuff.
 
Danne-Danger said:
It's a solid game, it's much more of a single player game than it's predecessor (I didn't really enjoy the first one though), and it has a pretty solid story along with a great line-up of NPC's.

It has some optimization issues but with enough fiddling you should be able to get it to run with a decent rig.

You should definitely check it out if you are a fan of party-based (Baldur's Gate, IWD etc.) w-RPG's, since it's the best thing to come out of the genre since Arcanum.
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Are there any must-have mods out there I should download?
 
Anno said:
Are there any must-have mods out there I should download?
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I have no idea, never dove into the mod scene with that one.

Though if I were to play it again I'd probably go look for an AI-fix/replacement, since your companions are pretty goddamn retarded (runs of to battle without orders etc.) if you don't baby-sit them. And maybe some sort of formation mod.

I don't know how far they've gotten with the patches either, so that stuff might even be fixed already.

Other than that, nothing really needs fixing.

icarus-daedelus said:
Most of those games are ugly as sin, so you might want to tone down your graphics percentage a bit.
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They weren't always old you know. :P
 
It's quite good, and I certainly liked it far more than the first one (which I found so boring I never managed to finish it). It does have some real performance issues, but beyond that it's a very enjoyable game.
 
firex said:
Why would it when that has no effect on the gameplay?

Again, we're talking about what's supposed to be a role playing game....
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A few bong hits will remedy your troubles with oblivion :) I agree with you though, it is far from being the perfect rpg.
 
icarus-daedelus said:
Wow. And I thought I was the biggest DDS shill on these boards.

I congratulate you, sir. I totally agree. DDS is probably my favorite JRPG. I just looooove the battle system. <3
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Man, can't find it for a reasonable price anywhere online. It's like Valkyrie Profile.

Oh well. I've never really heard of these outside of GAF or seen them in stores. Persona 3 looks kinda neat I guess, so I wondered about the others.

Square-Enix has been releasing a lot of not so good stuff for a while, Final Fantasy and DQ games are few and far between, and Bioware's slow as molasses as well, so all of my usual sources of fun seem to be dwindling. Obsidian makes stuff that is rushed or requires a PC made of solid gold. Other Western RPG makers have died out.

Enter Atlus, though honestly I don't own any Atlus titles outside of Tactics Ogre for the GBA, Odin Sphere, and soon, Etrian Odyssey (I keep wanting to say Etrian Saga, which is wrong - I don't know why). They might fill the void nicely. Though their products never seem to get the highest reviews, they tend to get good ones and have strong GAF cred.
 
JayDubya said:
Enter Atlus, though honestly I don't own any Atlus titles outside of Tactics Ogre for the GBA, Odin Sphere, and soon, Etrian Odyssey (I keep wanting to say Etrian Saga, which is wrong - I don't know why). They might fill the void nicely. Though their products never seem to get the highest reviews, they tend to get good ones and have strong GAF cred.
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Make sure to buy Persona 3. :D
 
Story - 80%
Gameplay -20%
Sound - 5%
Graphics - 5%

1. No "write your own story" storyline, the whole point of me buying RPGs are to play other people's imagination not mine.

2. Unrealistic character design, I see enough realistic people each day I don't want to play as yet another realistic human in a game. Those chibi children in FF:CC are perfect, and yes, I like to play as a girl or a "whiny kid" more than I would like to play a character that is exactly like me.

3. No forced "action" elements unless if its optional, I don't want to have to play super serious all the time. If there are FPS or other "aiming" component that isn't an optional minigame then its just a no-no. I eat while I play RPG just like I eat when I read a book. On the other hand a simple, intuitive action battle design can still grab my attention. (Mario & Luigi, FF:CC, Secret of Mana)

4. No "multiple choice" storyline.

So my top RPGs are: Final Fantasy III, IV, VI, and IX. Mario and Luigi (Superstar saga, Partners in Time), Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles, Secret of Mana, Dragon quest, Mario RPG, Paper Mario.
 
Avalon said:
Make sure to buy Persona 3. :D
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To be honest, if I buy one of these, I'm not sure if it should be Nocturne (which is apparently the main series, but it's just not numbered in America because the previous ones weren't released), DDS (I'll find it somehow if I have to!), or Persona. Persona seems pretty interesting with the whole "go through an entire school year" thing, but understand I have about zero knowledge about this series and how it plays out.

I don't like jumping into a series in the middle, but it would seem that playing the old ones would be impossible.

Honestly, I'm eyeing that Growlanser thing too, but I have never played a Growlanser game either.
 
SantaC said:
-interesting story
-rewarding sidequests
-good skills system
-good battle system
-good OST
-traveling on world map

well that sums it up
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fixed

to me its:

sound: 25
story/characters: 30
gameplay: 25
graphics: 20
 
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