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[JCX]

I don't think people want direct ports of the even the best JRPG from the handhelds. I think people want their larger scale entries that handhelds couldn't do back on consoles. That's not port begging. If anything its "genre begging".

If you don't mind portables that is fine, I do the same. I can sympathize with people who don't like them as it is uncomfortable and may not fit well with their way of life. Maybe the NX will solve this problem for everyone?

Then those people are being unrealistic about the costs of console vs handheld development. Console JRPG development is so dire that some wonder if XV will be the last big-budget mainline FF. Even Persona 5, the likely critical darling, isn't expected to sell like crazy.

Times have changed, and if you really want those experiences, they're here, you just have to go with them. I'm sure JRPG devs would have continued large scale console development if they found a way to make the numbers work. They didn't just all wake up one morning and say "fuck Consoles! Handhelds 4 life!"

I have huge hands that cramp up after playing handhelds to long. I live in a suburban area where I can't play while I commute, yet, somehow, I find a way to work playing them into my gaming life. There's a feeling of "handheld gaming provides inherently inferior gaming experiences", which just ain't he case in my experience.

 

[fallingdove]

I don't think people want direct ports of the even the best JRPG from the handhelds. I think people want their larger scale entries that handhelds couldn't do back on consoles. That's not port begging. If anything its "genre begging".

If you don't mind portables that is fine, I do the same. I can sympathize with people who don't like them as it is uncomfortable and may not fit well with their way of life. Maybe the NX will solve this problem for everyone?

I for one would be fine with handheld ports so long as they were priced accordingly. I Am Setsuna was essentially that and the game, while flawed, scratched my JRPG itch.

 

[RedSwirl]

But, I mean, you wouldn't really use the lack of visual novels like Ace Attorney or Zero Escape series on consoles to judge the genre, right?

Or strategy games, or puzzle games. Those are other genres that are bigger on portables these days.

Tbh, there's quite a bit of overlap between PCs and portables in the sorts of games they do well.

I see where the gap is being felt, because alot of these other genres were never so big on home consoles, so the lack of truly great heavy hitters on consoles is really obvious. Every E3, very few games for portables are going to get too much focus, so people aren't thinking of them as much.

Tbh though, the whole HD jump killing AA development and all those increased costs makes me happy that the DS and PSP were options. I've seen people say that it allowed companies to run away from HD development, but I don't really see those same games getting developed without portables.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire#Reception

Not sure how accurate those sales numbers are, but Capcom in 2010 saying the Breath of Fire series was their most successful RPG series at 3.1 million units sold by the fifth game seems pretty dire. And tbh, it's more of these rpgs that are more obviously missing from consoles: they don't sell like Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts or Dragon Quest in Japan, but they're damn good, have the support of a major publisher, etc.

So it's a mix of those sorts of games becoming the TWEWY, Radiant Historia, and hell, even Kingdom Hearts BBS (it's bascially as mainline as the numbered releases) on portable consoles, along with the fact that the biggest hitters, like Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, going away.

Alot of the console jrpgs that DO become bigger, like Persona, or Xenoblade, would probably have qualified and really successful examples of those sorts of games, but because the biggest hitters never really came, they sorta became said biggest hitters.

The really shitty crap has always been there, relies on small budgets and fans that are willing to pay a ton for a bunch of stuff to make a profit. They're just more visible now because of lack of region lock, importing, and the dearth of those bigger titles to hide that crap.

tl;dr: Your Wild Arms, Xenosagas, Breath of Fires, NEVER sold well enough to ever continue onto HD consoles, especially the 1st gen of HD consoles. The games that did sell well enough were either better suited to go/stay portable for sales/audience (Dragon Quest, Pokemon) or disappointed/delayed forever (FF for all last gen until 14 2.0?, FFV13, KH3, etc.)

You're overrating the previous success of the genre

That overlap between handhelds and PC in terms of what genres work well I think is just because the western console industry is dominated by action and sports games. When you look back that's how it's been since at least the 80's. The most popular games were always either sports games or games where you quickly moved a single character around in real time to fight enemies. Other genres could survive as niches though... until the PS3/360 era where game development got so expensive and the economy got so tight that anything that wasn't a sports game or didn't feel like an action game either disappeared or drifted to portable and PC. The main genres I see this happening to are strategy games, adventure games, turn-based RPGs, and simulation games. What's funny is that not only does PC and handheld harbor these genres, but so has the Japanese console market historically. These kinds of games also find lots of success in the mobile market too. It's just North American console gaming that has a hard time supporting anything that's not an action game. I think it's part of the reason storytelling has been so hard in the AAA sector, because it has to try to do everything through the lends of action game mechanics.

As for RPGs specifically, I guess I can understand the question of why we don't have anymore games like Wild Arms, Suikoden, Xenosaga, and Breath of Fire. However, that's like asking why we don't get anime like in the 80's and 90's anymore. JRPGs tend to resemble the anime of their era, and vice versa. The same economic forces are affecting both industries, and moe Otaku bait has taken over both. But in both you can also still find good non-Otaku stuff if you dig deep enough.

I really don't know why people bring up the Souls series so much in these discussions. I get that technically it's an RPG and technically it's from Japan but to me I really don't think the people like me wondering where their beloved JRPGs are going are even remotely talking about something like Souls. To me the Souls series is literally the opposite of everything I love about JRPGs.

I think part of the issue a lot of people have with JRPGs is how stuck in their tropes they seem to be. If you start drawing lines within Japanese RPGs distinguishing "what is a JRPG" other than an RPG from Japan, you theoretically limit the level of variety the genre can achieve. I'd argue that the Souls games still carry a lot of DNA from the very earliest JRPGs as well as the western dungeon crawlers that inspired them. Souls just might not be your kind of JRPG.

 

[nintendoman58]

Jrpg were always meant to be shounen anime made into videogames, if anything them looking after west is what damaged them. Tryhard mature writing is the worst.

"Tryhard mature writing"

Ugh, this phrase.

Yeah! Tryhards are the worst aren't they? God forbid people put effort into the things they make! I'd much rather people not try at all when making their characters and story! That's what really makes them likeable, right?

 

[Parfait]

The way I see it, Japan sacrificed and entire genre just to bring us Dark Souls.

If that's the cost of all modern JRPGs being smutty garbage then so be it.

.

 

[Spukc]

Breath of fire 2 is the greatest jrpg ever.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

"Tryhard mature writing"

Ugh, this phrase.

Yeah! Tryhards are the worst aren't they? God forbid people put effort into the things they make! I'd much rather people not try at all when making their characters and story! That's what really makes them likeable, right?

That's not what "tryhard" means... it's not about making efforts, lol

Look here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=try-hard

 

[Fencedude]

I played SMT: Nocturne and Persona 4 recently; they have good gameplay and are trying to do something different with it's stories but it's very rare. It's always been rare.

Persona 4 is perhaps the most anime game to ever be created.

Its so anime that its anime is essentially identical to the game.

 

[-Horizon-]

Maybe you are playing the wrong JRPGs. Try Trails in the Sky.

Just started listening to your podcast and now I read this
lol

Spoiler

I still have trails in the sky and cold steel on my vita waiting to be played >.>

 

[Reishiki]

.

I don't think that would be enough for me to play Bloodborne.

 

[Fencedude]

So after reading this entire thread I have concluded that 90% of you have no idea what a JRPG even is, 95% of you have no idea what anime is, and 99% of you have no idea what you actually even want.

 

[sonicmj1]

That's not what "tryhard" means... it's not about making efforts, lol

Look here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=try-hard

If you play a lot of competitive online games, you might be more familiar with definition 2 of your link, where players are called "tryhards" because they win at video games, so clearly they're taking them too seriously (whereas the person taking the time to flame them in all-chat has attained the appropriate level of cool, detached apathy). I assume that's what the poster was thinking of.

You're right that for a phrase like "tryhard mature", the top definition is the appropriate one, where the writer is trying too hard to achieve the desired effect to the point that they appear childish instead.

 

[kagamin]

So after reading this entire thread I have concluded that 90% of you have no idea what a JRPG even is, 95% of you have no idea what anime is, and 99% of you have no idea what you actually even want.

Can't the same be said of all things?

 

[Mechanized]

I bought Tales of Zestiria on steam a few weeks ago. I've been dreading to play it for the very reasons in the OP. I just have such fond memories of Symphonia but I don't want to play the same story again. I'll report back. I'm going in with an open mind, if you look back at older JRPGs the dialogue was always very simplistic and just as trope filled. They just didn't have the budget/tech/experience to animate it.

 

[Lothar]

Persona 4 is perhaps the most anime game to ever be created.

Its so anime that its anime is essentially identical to the game.

This is true but it is still doing something different than other JRPGs. Just the fact that the whole game is about catching a murderer and it takes place in one town and it's present day makes it really different. It's not generic JRPG in the way that so many Tales Of games are.

 

[Tye The Czar]

The appeal of traditional JRPGs makes a lot more sense to me if you consider that at their peak there weren't many other genres that married large, kinda-open worlds, dialogue-heavy plots, and high (for their time) production values.

Other genres have stepped in and do these things, today. They don't do the lightweight strategy game part, but that was always the weakest part of the traditional JRPG to me.

One of JRPG's main appeals was originally its accessibility compared to Western RPGs. Ultima and Wizardry were known for having complex systems, open levels, and little in the way of direction. Dragon Quest took Ultima's top-down overworld-dungeon-town template and perspective and combined it with Wizardry's menu-based system, and the rest was history(Though honestly, I wish they took a bit more). Japan's culture prefers linear structure and clarity of objectives far more compared to the U.S.'s hunter and explorer tendencies. This also helps explain Metroid's lack of popularity over there.

 

[Zolo]

This is true but it is still doing something different than other JRPGs. Just the fact that the whole game is about catching a murderer and it takes place in one town and it's present day makes it really different. It's not generic JRPG in the way that so many Tales Of games are.

.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

My problem with modern jrpgs is that they have largely devolved. There was a time when jrpg experimentation was possible. We saw varying thoughts and interpretations on what you could do with the genre. Leading to battle systems featured in Parasite Eve of Vagrant Story. The genre started to combine strategy rpg and the traditional rpg genre, resulting in games like Breath of Fire V Dragon Quarter, which has zero pointless encounters, or the highly deep Valkyrie Profile 2. We got stories about people living in dystopian worlds where they're mysteriously turned into demons and forced to kill and eat other people. We got combinations of the horror and rpg genres in Shadow Hearts. Games like Suikoden III show the different sides in war and that the people you deem "bad guys" are just people like you. There's even a whole chapter where you get to play as the villains, which develops their resolve and rationale and why they're doing the things they're doing. You know what one of the best parts of Suikoden III's structure was that you pick between three (ask eventually five!) perspectives. You could do these characters in any order and progress to a point and then had to pick different characters. It was open ended, embraced different character perspectives which made them even more relatable. 14 years later and there's still nothing like Suikoden III's structure. Nothing has improved on it. No one has copied it. Shin Megami Tensei III features our world after the apocalypse. You are forced to pick between ideals: does communism work after the world ends? What about fascism? Or democracy? You get to choose. Final Fantasy X-2 allows me to get the airship at the beginning of the game and go to any location I want and do any missions I want out of order. That type of freedom has yet to be topped in both modern jrpg and wrpgs. Final Fantasy XII has an encounter system where enemies chase you long distances and you can get attacked by mobs numbering over 6. You could find yourself in bad situations low on supplies fighting over 10 enemies at once. No jrpg has attempted to copy it's amazing encounter system. FFXIII didn't even try to improve it. Breath of Fire V Dragon Quarter is a 20 hour rpg with a timer. When you hit the clock, the game ends. Every action, whether walking or taking an action in battle fills up the timer. Saves are limited and require an item - Resident Evil style - to save. A new genre of rpg was born - survival rpg - and it was quickly abandoned. We have games like Exist Archive that are spiritual successors to Valkyrie Profile but lack the depth and gravitas of that games writing and storytelling.

At one point the jrpg genre pushed envelopes constantly. Here's a story about a man who becomes king and stops a war while riding on the back of the childhood friend he betrayed. Here's a new experimental type of rpg that's half simulation half dungeon crawler, please enjoy it. Now we have nostalgia fueled games like Bravely Default. While many of these games are good, I have to say very few of them have grabbed me. Many of them are completely safe. Valkyrie Profile 2's battle system and dungeon design are the best I have experienced in a 3d rpg. Over ten years later and it still hasn't been topped. Because no one wants to top it. I have hope the next batch of jrpgs will be good. But it doesn't stop the fact that the genre no longer pushes itself like it used to both story wise and gameplay wise. When they made a new Xanadu last year, they made it an uguu bait fest. I think that says everything. There's certainly games to play, but they're not exactly games that inspire or challenge the genre and its conventions. Not the way Suikoden III did story-wise and certainly not the way VP2 and BOFVDQ did with gameplay. With the death of these series', no one has really filled the gap they've left.

It wouldn't be bad if games like became the status quo but they aren't. The genre instead has gone backwards. Last gen we got Nier - with its amazing story - and The World Ends With You - with its progressive answers to most every problem the genre faces, from encounters to difficulty. We also got Radiant Historia. This generation is a lot more plain. For that reason, while I think there's certainly good games available, as far as jrpgs go, I think this is the worst they've ever been.

I can only hope Nier Automata, DQ11, and SMTA and others deliver.

I really don't know why people bring up the Souls series so much in these discussions. I get that technically it's an RPG and technically it's from Japan but to me I really don't think the people like me wondering where their beloved JRPGs are going are even remotely talking about something like Souls. To me the Souls series is literally the opposite of everything I love about JRPGs.

Eh. For me at least, it's a jrpg. I don't how how it isn't. I personally see little different between it and an SMT stat-wise. They both are inspired by western RPGs and feature builds depending on your play style. I don't see much of a difference between it and Moneter Hunter which uses a very similar stamina system. Everything aboit Souls screams jrpg. That said, I personally don't like them.

 

[YankeeDonB]

When people stopped buying gems like Suikoden V, perhaps in large part due to its low production values, developers stopped making them.

HD development difficulties aside, there should have been a place for big ambitious games in the A or AA space. A little of this has happened on portables, but I still believe they're a poor ergonomic match for really absorbing 40+ hour games that are made to be devoured in long sittings.

 

[Raylan]

The "teh round based combat is teh oldschool. More action plz" nonsense destroyed the JRPG genre.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

When people stopped buying gems like Suikoden V, perhaps in large part due to its low production values, developers stopped making them.

HD development difficulties aside, there should have been a place for big ambitious games in the A or AA space. A little of this has happened on portables, but I still believe they're a poor ergonomic match for really absorbing 40+ hour games that are made to be devoured in long sittings.

It pains me people are saying that these tropes represent jrpgs and I'm a Suikoden fan and have to take it because it's dead and these people who bitch about tropes in jrpgs probably never fucking bought games like Suikoden or Tactics Ogre LUCT to begin with. Pisses me off.

 

[xealo]

I really don't know why people bring up the Souls series so much in these discussions. I get that technically it's an RPG and technically it's from Japan but to me I really don't think the people like me wondering where their beloved JRPGs are going are even remotely talking about something like Souls. To me the Souls series is literally the opposite of everything I love about JRPGs.

Honestly, Souls games have deeper influences from western D&D than what id normally view as a jRPG in it's gameplay systems, despite the fact that the dev is indeed Japanese, and that From Software have dumped the dice rolling aspect of it.

 

[Zolo]

Honestly, Souls games have deeper influences from western D&D than what id normally view as a jRPG in it's gameplay systems, despite the fact that the dev is indeed Japanese, and that From Software have dumped the dice rolling aspect of it.

The problem is that Japanese games have origins in Western D&D.

 

[Pellegri Testament]

I always wonder what it would be like if the big JRPG studios collaborated with some western writers. The writing in JRPGs has never been good, but the advent of voice acting and the increasing focus on the niche otaku/weeb audience really took it to the next level of cringe-worthiness.

Play a game like Final Fantasy XIII or even GAF darling Trails in the Sky, then go straight to Mass Effect or Dragon Age. My reaction was "holy shit, these people are actual grown ups with functioning brains and complex inner lives and motivations." It's on a completely different level.

I seriously hope you're kidding with this post, especially the bolded. Have you actually played any of the Trails series? There are random npcs in that series with more "complex lives and motivations" than there are some of the main characters in Bioware games.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I've only yet read the first part of Shift in Japanese Pop Culture, but it makes a lot of sense. I could definitely see that otaku culture started the Japanese media stagnation. And if the genre stops expanding, while you keep going, there's a time when it stops clicking with you.

Thanks. You're the only person who bothered, but you didn't read far enough to realize you still have it backwards like I once did.

Keep reading. Let that harsh light shine in.

This is a joke post right

It's a generalist JRPG thread. Like with generalist PC threads, there's absolutely no telling.

Honestly, Souls games have deeper influences from western D&D than what id normally view as a jRPG in it's gameplay systems, despite the fact that the dev is indeed Japanese, and that From Software have dumped the dice rolling aspect of it.

This 2012 post was made before he joined the forum.

 

[YankeeDonB]

It pains me people are saying that these tropes represent jrpgs and I'm a Suikoden fan and have to take it because it's dead and these people who bitch about tropes in jrpgs probably never fucking bought games like Suikoden or Tactics Ogre LUCT to begin with. Pisses me off.

Right there with you (although I suspect many on Gaf DID buy more obscure jRPGs back in the day). I remember playing Arc the Lad TotS, and really liking it, but knowing that basically no one was buying it, and that the series was going to die, with maybe one more whimper of a spinoff title :-(

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

I don't agree with that. There's three coming out in the next two weeks alone (Cold Steel II, Dragon Quest VII, and SMT IV Apocalypse). Granted, two of those are a couple of years old in Japan, but this still seems like a pretty fruitful time for traditional JRPGs. Especially when you take into account World of Final Fantasy and Pokemon Sun/Moon coming out really soon, too.

I'll agree that we've gotten more games in the genre lately, but those examples you give kind of illustrate the problem - we were seeing a clear progression in technology & sophistication for years and then things came to a big halt at the end of the PS2 era as developers fled to the portables & mobile. None of those games you mentioned would look visually out of place on a PS2 & all of them are low budget, spin-offs or remakes.

 

[YankeeDonB]

I'll agree that we've gotten more games in the genre lately, but those examples you give kind of illustrate the problem - we were seeing a clear progression in technology & sophistication for years and then things came to a big halt at the end of the PS2 era as developers fled to the portables & mobile. None of those games you mentioned would look visually out of place on a PS2 & all of them are low budget, spin-offs or remakes.

True. Still, AA and AAA jRPGs are about to get a shot in the arm with FF XV, Persona V, DQ 11, Ni No Kuni 2, Nier:A. Maybe those will all flop, but it at least feels like a number of Japanese developers are ready to try and take the next step.

 

[Kwame120]

It is just that portable consoles started mainly as a surrogate of desktop consoles, not a replacement. I'd never have imagined that with the advent of 3D, whole genres would abandon desktop console space and move to portables. I would not mind portable games, as long as there was a desktop console or computer version too.

I mean I enjoyed games like Ecclesia and Professor Layton on the NDS but I know that Bloodstained is the way the game should be played.

I feel like that's just habit, people are used to playing JRPGs on consoles rather than handhelds. I do sympathise, even though Xenoblade is the first thing I'd get if I ever got a n3DS, it does seem a bit weird in my mind downscaling it as I've already played the Wii Version. So I can understand people's reluctance or preference, it just annoys me when people rule out portables all together or consider them "lesser" to a console experience. If the JRPG scene has moved to handhelds, likely due to budget issues - do you think you'd get the experimental Bravely series originating on consoles? - then you should follow them there if you truly want to play them, rather than complain about them not being on your system of choice. And support whatever games do come out for your system of choice if you're that insistent on them returning to consoles in full swing.

Hasty edit: Of course this is generalising. Like I said before, if you find handhelds uncomfortable, then feel free to complain, as it's not a a preference but an inability. It's just for the people that have some kind of console superiority thing going on, and don't understand that the shift to handhelds is probably why JRPGs survived a generation, it's cost issues. Thus they're placing their system bias ahead of their genre bias, so the complaining is annoying.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Robert is right about there being less command based jrpgs and it ties into my de-evolution theory.

 

[redcrayon]

Bioware, pfft. They ain't got shit on FF Tactics and Panzer Dragoon Saga.



I don't know about you, but after spamming X amount of gifts to my crush, they suddenly want to have sex with me. It's guaranteed. Then we never talk again and our relationship is perfectly healthy.

That's not true and you know it. Sometimes they have personal issues that manifest as a warehouse full of bandits around the corner too.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

That's not true and you know it. Sometimes they have personal issues that manifest as a warehouse full of bandits around the corner too.

Oh shit, you got me. Their emotionally complex lives is just too much for me to handle at times, I swear!

 

[Lynx_7]

I'll agree that we've gotten more games in the genre lately, but those examples you give kind of illustrate the problem - we were seeing a clear progression in technology & sophistication for years and then things came to a big halt at the end of the PS2 era as developers fled to the portables & mobile. None of those games you mentioned would look visually out of place on a PS2 & all of them are low budget, spin-offs or remakes.

Despite still enjoying a lot of modern JRPGs and even having a few of them among my favorites, I can definitely agree with this. There's been a lack of ambition and games pushing the envelope as far as current jrpgs are concerned. It's why I'm not convinced when people say World of Final Fantasy is the true XV or the "savior" of the franchise when it looks nothing like the ambitious games it pays homage to. It doesn't even present itself as a game that could stand toe to toe on its own against any of the ATB mainline titles, but rather a "look at how cute this is!" nod to them. I'm sure it can still be a fairly fun spin-off, but it's no FF IX. I also miss the crazy experimental stuff and stories that push the envelope, but hopefully this second wind of JRPGs on consoles will deliver on its promises and push the genre forward. If FF XV, Nier, NNK2, DQ XI and P5 can deliver both from a commercial and critical standpoint, I'll be very excited to see what SE, Atlus and Level 5 can do in the future to build upon their successes, and if other developers will follow suit. I'm not happy with VII Remake being possibly bloated to hell and back to be divided between god knows how many separate parts Square will sell them, but I'm also hoping for that to be a huge success. The NX being a console-portable hybrid can also finally bridge the gap between western and eastern hardware preferences.

 

[fart town usa]

Can I just say, resonance of fate is a game I wanted to enjoy so badly. The music and art design were top notch. I just could not wrap my head around the battle system.

 

[Azuran]

That's not what the person you quoted was saying at all. The sprites on the 16-bit systems also didn't look anywhere near as detailed as the concept art either. Today, characters can look closer to, if not exactly like their concept art.

FFVI had a clown turning into Jesus reincarnate and blowing up the world. Is that's not anime as hell, then I don't know what is.

 

[Kwame120]

FFVI had a clown turning into Jesus reincarnate and blowing up the world. Is that's not anime as hell, then I don't know what is.

That FF6 description is quite frankly, beautiful.
_______

I reckon that you're always going to have a large number, or a general trend of JRPGs having anime quirks, if only because that's a huge part of Japan's exported culture. It's just like how lots of the poster western games have Hollywood like stories and presentation, it's in the style of America's exported culture, which has come to dominate western video game presentation as a whole. But again, as a whole, I stand by my viewpoint that there's lots of JRPGs that aren't like that, they just might not be the ones you always notice.

Hell, Pokémon is one of, if not the biggest JRPG/RPG (probably wins both) of all time past and present, and it's practically a genre of its own. You could say that it's very anime in its storyline, but that's probably because it has an enormous anime following the games themselves, rather than the other way around. SMT and Persona are also perfect for illustrating the divide, Persona being SMT's more popular cousin which is also more anime - hence the trend is for JRPGs to look and feel anime (why am I using it as an adjective?), but you also have lesser known games that feel entirely different, to the point where people often deny them being JRPGs at all. (Looking at you Dark Souls.) Someone mentioned this earlier and if I manage to find it I'll edit the quote in, but it's almost self-fulfilling, if it isn't anime people find a way to dismiss it as a rare occurrence or not being part of the genre.

 

[Zolo]

And even for SMT, this was the cover of the novel that the Megaten series gets its origin from.

Along with other pics from the novel:

Use this link for larger picture: http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Digital_Devil_Story:_Megami_Tensei?file=Mtvariousart.jpg

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

I'll agree that we've gotten more games in the genre lately, but those examples you give kind of illustrate the problem - we were seeing a clear progression in technology & sophistication for years and then things came to a big halt at the end of the PS2 era as developers fled to the portables & mobile. None of those games you mentioned would look visually out of place on a PS2 & all of them are low budget, spin-offs or remakes.

Well, Shin Megami Tensei IV was hardly a low budget game. It was probably one of Atlus's biggest budget games prior to Persona 5. Apocalypse probably reuses a lot more assets, but I still wouldn't consider that some sort of super low-budget thing.

Even then, I would contest that this is actually a change. Aside from Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts, JRPGs were never big budget affairs. Even during the supposed glory days, most of them were made on a fairly ordinary or even low budget, which makes sense as most of them didn't sell particularly great.

Visually JRPGs have advanced at a slower rate than some other genres, but mechanically they've continued to improve upon themselves. If you showed Trails of Cold Steel to someone from 15 years ago, they might not think the visuals were mindblowing, but they'd be very impressed with the mechanics of the game. On the other hand, if you showed Fallout 4 to a wRPG player from 15 years ago, they'd be blown away by the graphics but probably not find the game very fun and wonder why it wasn't an RPG. A lot of other genres would be a similar story, where the graphics have advanced more and more, but the mechanics have regressed further and further. I don't think that's a coincidence. Continuing to push graphics means a need to sell more and more games, which means simplifying everything in attempt to appeal to more and more people.

JRPGs have been able to maintain that spirit more than most other console games because they haven't raced for the biggest graphics imaginable and $70 million budgets.

 

[casiopao]

When people stopped buying gems like Suikoden V, perhaps in large part due to its low production values, developers stopped making them.

HD development difficulties aside, there should have been a place for big ambitious games in the A or AA space. A little of this has happened on portables, but I still believe they're a poor ergonomic match for really absorbing 40+ hour games that are made to be devoured in long sittings.

The reason for people stop buying Suikoden V is quite simple lol. Suikoden 4 and tactics burn the fanbase badly which is why many does not return to the title anymore. Not to mention, Suikoden V released when PS2 is on tail end of its life. So, the number of buyers is lesser. And also, at that time, Jrpg decline had begin lol. The fans off the genre had begin to move out to other games.

 

[YankeeDonB]

The reason for people stop buying Suikoden V is quite simple lol. Suikoden 4 and tactics burn the fanbase badly which is why many does not return to the title anymore. Not to mention, Suikoden V released when PS2 is on tail end of its life. So, the number of buyers is lesser. And also, at that time, Jrpg decline had begin lol. The fans off the genre had begin to move out to other games.

Suikoden IV was a low point, true. But Tactics wasn't bad -- and Suikoden V got good word of mouth. Anyone interested in top-notch classic style jRPGs could have picked it up.

But yes, no denying in any particular case it's always going to be a stew of complex factors that drive sales.

 

[casiopao]

The problem we are facing here is funny as there is soo many Jrpg fans but each and every person had their interpretations on what they wanted.

1. The people who only cared about consoles Jrpg and feel that Jrpg is dead now as there is lesser Jrpg and many of the title is not so good..
2. The people who believe Jrpg is still doing well as they had been following Jrpg on the handheld as many of the title had moved to handheld.
3. The people who consider the only Jrpg count is turn based action which end up severely limiting the genre and making the genre looks bad as it can't evolve from the genre.
4. People who consider all Rpg which come from Japan is considered Jrpg so they find Jrpg is still providing tons of variety on gameplay aspect.
5. People who only want a good story and able to eat up any bad gameplay/battle system of the Jrpg.
6. People who focus more on the gameplay aspect of the Jrpg and feel that story is more or less and after thought.

All this different type of Jrpg fans is surely going to cause a hell lot of confusion as

Suikoden IV was a low point, true. But Tactics wasn't bad -- and Suikoden V got good word of mouth. Anyone interested in top-notch classic style jRPGs could have picked it up.

But yes, no denying in any particular case it's always going to be a stew of complex factors that drive sales.

Sometimes things just happen lol. Suikoden V had a good word of mouth actually mirror the current problem Berseria had. Berseria had a great mouth to mouth but Zestria really burn the fans so bad that many are simply not going to return to the IP.

I do think that Tactics is okay..... but i sure know many of my friends hated the series especially when they are expecting more after 4 big failure.

 

[Lynx_7]

And even for SMT, this was the cover of the novel that the Megaten series gets its origin from.

Along with other pics from the novel:

That has a very 80s and early 90s anime look to it though. Kaneko's post-SNES aesthetic has a much more unique flair to it.

Shame he's not working on the franchise anymore. Soejima is pretty good but he's no Kaneko.

 

[Opa-Pa]

I don't get what's the point of saying this or that retro RPG was anime when we know that when people describe RPGs being anime in a negative way they mean moe art style/fanservice/cliche, tropey characters/shoehorned waifu stuff, etc. Like you know most people don't mind a game having characters designed by Akira Toriyama, but when it has Suzuhito Yasuda it's a completely different thing.

I know that's definitely my problem with modern JRPGs being "anime". It sucks but I shelter myself in old ones I've yet to finish and well, SMT, to a degree.

 

[Parakeetman]

The way I see it, Japan sacrificed and entire genre just to bring us Dark Souls.

If that's the cost of all modern JRPGs being smutty garbage then so be it.

Gotta love casual fans who have no idea that basically From has been doing dark fantasy from the start. Its only the Souls series that made them more well known to the West.

 

[Dio]

Gotta love casual fans who have no idea that basically From has been doing dark fantasy from the start. Its only the Souls series that made them more well known to the West.

This. King's Field 1, 2, 3, 4, Shadow Tower, Shadow Tower Abyss, et cetera all contributed towards the eventual creation of Demon's Souls, and then Dark Souls.

 

[Lynx_7]

Speaking for myself, the reason I didn't buy Suikoden V was because I had no idea it even existed at the time. Back then I knew Suikoden III was a thing but never had any idea V was released on the PS2 and that it was a good entry to boot. The only titles I kept hearing about by the tail-end of PS2's life were the Shadow Hearts games (specially Covenant) and Persona. Everything else just kinda went by unnoticed until a few years later when I bothered to actively research about PS2 jrpgs.

So what I'm saying is start being louder, Suikoden fans. lol

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

Well, Shin Megami Tensei IV was hardly a low budget game. It was probably one of Atlus's biggest budget games prior to Persona 5. Apocalypse probably reuses a lot more assets, but I still wouldn't consider that some sort of super low-budget thing.

I have a hard time seeing how anyone could play SMT4 and not think it had a lower budget than the average PS2 Atlus RPG like SMT3, P3/4, DDS1&2, etc. Sure, it's technically decent for a 3DS game, but it's easy to see that they cut a lot of corners.

 

[casiopao]

I don't get what's the point of saying this or that retro RPG was anime when we know that when people describe RPGs being anime in a negative way they mean moe art style/fanservice/cliche, tropey characters/shoehorned waifu stuff, etc. Like you know most people don't mind a game having characters designed by Akira Toriyama, but when it has Suzuhito Yasuda it's a completely different thing.

I know that's definitely my problem with modern JRPGs being "anime". It sucks but I shelter myself in old ones I've yet to finish and well, SMT, to a degree.

But the problem is even all those retro anime art in the past is also called Waifu lol. It is just that it is not till recently that otaku is viewed as more of a bad thing vs in the past.

Akira Toriyama had Android 18 which is easily one of the famous character in doujin circle. Many fans love her as their waifu. Sailor Moon also exist. Tokyo Mew Mew, Cardcaptor Sakura, Slayer, Record of the Lodoss War.

All those series is famous in the circle of otaku. And many of the female character is waifu for them so i disagree that if u said that it is only in the recent year that all anime art had become more fanservice. From the early era, fanservice had been huge. It is just we are not really paying so much attention there.

I have a hard time seeing how anyone could play SMT4 and not think it had a lower budget than the average PS2 Atlus RPG like SMT3, P3/4, DDS1&2, etc. Sure, it's technically decent for a 3DS game, but it's easy to see that they cut a lot of corners.

While i agree, i really think that the act of keep going higher and higher is very risky lol. SMT is simply not a huge player. it is not persona. So, they would had to budget the game properly to make sure that the investment won't backfire and causes them to loses money. And also, comparing the cost in Japan vs the West is just not going to work. The west is playing with AAA budget. I would be surprised except for S-E to see company making Jrpg had even any AA budget. The most they would have is A or B level of budget.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

The reason for people stop buying Suikoden V is quite simple lol. Suikoden 4 and tactics burn the fanbase badly which is why many does not return to the title anymore. Not to mention, Suikoden V released when PS2 is on tail end of its life. So, the number of buyers is lesser. And also, at that time, Jrpg decline had begin lol. The fans off the genre had begin to move out to other games.

Suikoden V didn't come out at the tail end of the ps2's life. Unless you also consider Yakuza, Okami, and FFXII the tail end. Persona 4 is more fall end than Suikoden V and did enough to get milked.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

This thread is interesting to me because I haven't played a single modern JRPG.