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[orioto]

There is something worrying me about the WiiU graphics. I've tried and tried to be optimistic, but something doesn't smell good.

Every console, even when it had a good portion of not so impressive launch title, bad ports etc.. Every console has some form of demo of what's coming. You know, where you can say "oh yeah sure most of the games are underwhelming but look at .. uncharted on vita, or RE on 3ds, or even project gotham racing on 360 back then. There is always something that is there to show off.

Why isn't there any of that on WiiU. I mean some games look good, i love the art direction of the wonderful 101 for exemple, but nothing is there to show us that it's capable of something PS3 or 360 wouldn't be. Even the Shinen game, when those guys are basically demo makers with magic tricks all aver their sleeves, isn't anything more than pretty low poly with normal maps on top of it. The Zelda demo ? I'm absolutely sure there is nothing more than current gen in it if you see it at the IQ it was in truth.

So ok, i can wait to see more, but something somewhere tells me there is a reason we see nothing of that type even now that the console is out.

 

[Camp Lo]

This is why the cpu in the Wii U is such a letdown - watch the Wii U chug along:

Wii U end of first mission of Black Ops 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd74NJG9YiU&feature=plcp

Xbox 360 end of same mission:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NEp_r7Ilus&feature=plcp

I thought the wii u was slowed down for dramatic effect, then i saw the 360 cut. I said wow.

 

[XtremeXpider]

A polygon mesh is pretty self explanatory.

Low poly

High poly (and yes I'm aware there's tessellation also going on)

PSP
"Some simple numbers underline that fact: Resistance Retribution pushed some 50,000 polygons per frame, whereas Golden Abyss is throwing around 260,000."
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-06-02-uncharted-golden-abyss-preview-preview

N64
The site is currently not working but the cache saves the figures (i.e 1980 polygons in Pokemon Stadium 2).
3dmarth.vndv.com/polygonchart.html

Post the mesh picture from Zelda demo.

 

[Mastperf]

From my experience of counting polygons in games.

Do you use this same skill to spot GPGPU use?

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Drinky is a special case.

I don't care where you got your inspiration for your post. You said your piece, I responded.

It's just an observation I made based on our little-run in a while ago, nothing defensive about that

Ookay...good observation, great work!

I'd honestly wager they won't be changing from this line ever again. Every piece of Nintendo hardware will be from the Wii foundation. Always intentionally limiting hardware for both cheaper manufacturing and slower increases in development costs.

Fans of videogames (those that will play for Nintendo or 3rd party titles) will always have to buy more than one platform from here on out. I doubt WiiU will see a steady stream of ports from Durango or Orbis.

So if you want Nintendo games and the vast majority of 3rd party titles you will have to buy more than one platform. No ifs ands or buts. While the engines might scale that's no guarantee that game assets, AI routines, or physics will.

This is assuming we have a traditional gen after this next one. It'll be what, 7 years? Next-next-gen will probably be streaming off TVs that come installed with some form of streaming tech.

 

[Horsemama1956]

I am still amazed at some of the stuff the 360 comes out with when developers really learn its tricks. I am sure the Wii-U will be no different. I doubt Nintendo will be the ones to do it but someone is bound to do some stunning stuff.

I am sure the GPGPU will be more than capable for those that dedicate enough time to learn to code it. Same as the 360 and PS3. Some developers just put in way more effort than others.

Physics and shit(the main stuff you would want to offload from the CPU onto the GPU) takes a whole lot of power on top of rendering the graphics.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Ported versions compared to the game on another console that has been optimized for said console? On technology that has been optimized and refined over a multi year run? Uh, ok then...

If the Wii U were even a factor of 2x more powerful than the 360 there'd be no problem running unoptimized ports on it.

 

[JordanN]

Post the mesh picture from Zelda demo.

I asked before, why would I do that?

 

[BlackJace]

Ookay...good observation, great work!

Yeah, I said something on a message board. Feels good, man.

 

[jerd]

I see we've managed to crank up the crazy a bit since I left. Kudos.

 

[cyberheater]

If the Wii U were even a factor of 2x more powerful than the 360 there'd be no problem running unoptimized ports on it.

Yes. Taken as a whole. It's definitely not.

 

[BrettHD]

When did I say its unfair to compare to old consoles with hardware? I was talking about software and devs experience. We all knew Wii U wont be cutting edge, its better than current consoles but its not going to match what PS4/720 is going to be doing under the hood. We all know this.

Wii U isnt part of the same gen as 360/PS3.

CPU isnt as weak as you think, have you read anything that marcan has said?

Its a pretty unfair comparison really. Xbox 360 has been out since 2005. Devs have had years to learn, optimize and squeeze every bit of juice out of the hardware. The same cant be said about Wii U. You cant measure what hardware can do with launch titles and rushed ports.

Btw the Wii U cpu has been around in one form or another since the Gamecube and the gpu is from what 2008 ?
I mean how long does it take to learn to code for tech thats been around this long anyway ?

 

[lwilliams3]

If the Wii U were even a factor of 2x more powerful than the 360 there'd be no problem running unoptimized ports on it.

.
If it was all around powerful, that would make sense. However, we know that the system is balanced differently and that some parts are lower. So it is not such a simple scale up if one of the parts was a very important factor of getting the original game working.

 

[Pie and Beans]

I thought JordanN was joking. I thought he was... doing a routine or scathing sarcasm or something. Is this what its come to. Is this going to be a made-for-afternoon-TV film entitled 'The Man Who Counted Polygons' about a descent into madness?

 

[XtremeXpider]

I asked before, why would I do that?

If you has counted polygons from mesh image, why not to post it? How can you argue something like polygon number without any proof?

 

[shinra-bansho]

A polygon mesh is pretty self explanatory.

Low poly
High poly (and yes I'm aware there's tessellation also going on)

PSP
"Some simple numbers underline that fact: Resistance Retribution pushed some 50,000 polygons per frame, whereas Golden Abyss is throwing around 260,000."
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-06-02-uncharted-golden-abyss-preview-preview

N64
The site is currently not working but the cache saves the figures (i.e 1980 polygons in Pokemon Stadium 2).
3dmarth.vndv.com/polygonchart.html

I'm sorry I thought you were going to show us some sort of proof as to why anybody should take your conjured up estimates in any seriousness.

But we should presumably just take at face value you have magic eyes and are King of the Polygon Men.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

So ok, i can wait to see more, but something somewhere tells me there is a reason we see nothing of that type even now that the console is out.

The biggest hitters take the most time and Nintendo isn't holding off showing them because they aren't going to be striking.

They're waiting for an impactful moment for them to shine at.

Even Pikmin could look a lot better now as far as we know.

 

[Ryuuga]

Every polygon has their angular angle.

 

[JordanN]

If you has counted polygons from mesh image, why not to post it? How can you argue something like polygon number without any proof?

I think you need to re-read this thread.

I'm sorry I thought you were going to show us some sort of proof as to why anybody should take your conjured up estimates in any seriousness.

Another one...

 

[Mastperf]

So you can't prove it?

 

[Barack Lesnar]

The biggest hitters take the most time and Nintendo isn't holding off showing them because they aren't going to be striking.

They're waiting for an impactful moment for them to shine at.

Even Pikmin could look a lot better now as far as we know.

That impactful moment should've been this past E3. It was a perfect opportunity to get people excited for the long-term, but instead we got a couple of tech demos and footage of current gen third-party games.

 

[impact]

Haha yes, I'm butthurt that Sony / Xbot fanboys have nothing better to do than troll a brand new system using last gen standards and mindset. I feel like crying. If anything I'm trying to be one of the only voices in a sea of hate that actually supports the philosophy.

This gave me a good laugh

 

[Projectjustice]

Btw the Wii U cpu has been around in one form or another since the Gamecube and the gpu is from what 2008 ?
I mean how long does it take to learn to code for tech thats been around this long anyway ?

Reading comprehesion is good. Hint, the unbolded section was the angle in which I was speaking about.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

That impactful moment should've been this past E3. It was a perfect opportunity to get people excited for the long-term, but instead we got a couple of tech demos and footage of current gen third-party games.

Armchair quarterbacking is easy especially when no one knows what is going on with those games.

I'd like to see Retro's game next week, I think it'd cause a lot of excitement.

 

[moonbox]

It is not as easy as this.

Why some people are thinking that "GPGPU" is something "magical"?



Installation is irrelevant, it help in loading times only, not game performance.

No. It seems you lack some fundamental understanding of that which you're arguing so aggressively. But I really couldn't care less...

This thread and its jokes will live beyond the lifespan of the console itself. 'Tis the nature of the internet. So, you continue arguing out of pride, no matter how misinformed you or any of your 'opposers' are. I'm off to surf the beautiful horror that is the world wide web.

Enjoy slapping your dick about.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Every polygon has their angular angle.

Not if you get a single polygon with 100,000 sides.

 

[orioto]

The biggest hitters take the most time and Nintendo isn't holding off showing them because they aren't going to be striking.

They're waiting for an impactful moment for them to shine at.

Even Pikmin could look a lot better now as far as we know.

Yeah but what i was noticing is that every console has something like that before its release, even if it's not ready at all (look at how some 3ds games were displayed 3 E3 in a row), but they show them to give something to hope for.

There is nothing with WiiU, and besides graphical discussion, isn' it weird compared to their recent consoles that there is no Capcom exclusive yet ?

but anyway, what i'm saying is that they have 1 year to steal even a slight portion of the next gen market. I don't see why they would have a "oh let's show nothing to impress this first year, so we can enter the battle fairly with our overpower rivals" strategy...

 

[Meelow]

Btw the Wii U cpu has been around in one form or another since the Gamecube and the gpu is from what 2008?
I mean how long does it take to learn to code for tech thats been around this long anyway ?

Wasn't the GPU in development since 2009?

 

[SoulPlaya]

I am still amazed at some of the stuff the 360 comes out with when developers really learn its tricks. I am sure the Wii-U will be no different. I doubt Nintendo will be the ones to do it but someone is bound to do some stunning stuff.

I am sure the GPGPU will be more than capable for those that dedicate enough time to learn to code it. Same as the 360 and PS3. Some developers just put in way more effort than others.

The appeal of the Wii U to developers should be that it's easy and cheap to develop for, not that it requires extra effort, time, and resources to just get things to run properly.

 

[Boss Man]

From my experience of counting polygons in games.

Oh man, it seems like we always get at least one gem out of each of these threads.

You just said something that might live on for years.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Yeah but what i was noticing is that every console has something like that before its release, even if it's not ready at all (look at how some 3ds games were displayed 3 E3 in a row), but they show them to give something to hope for.

There is nothing with WiiU, and besides graphical discussion, isn' it weird compared to their recent consoles that there is no Capcom exclusive yet ?

but anyway, what i'm saying is that they have 1 year to steal even a slight portion of the next gen market. I don't see why they would have a "oh let's show nothing to impress this first year, so wen can enter the battle fairly with our overpower rivals" strategy...

I'd worry if they don't wow at next E3.

I wouldn't now.

They(like many companies have done before) rushed the console out for the holiday and for some reason, just focused on the immediate future of games.

They have their own timetable and rhyme and reason and there is a method to their "madness" but of course most people like you and I wish they'd handle that much differently.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

Oh man, it seems like we always get at least one gem out of each of these threads.

I hope this statement lives on for years.

it should be his tag.

 

[jayhawker]

Jordan, I think you need to look into this. You could be making big money selling ads, man.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I think you need to re-read this thread.

Another one...

I'm sorry, you're right. I definitely shouldn't remain incredulous to your power to look at a screenshot, not even at the underlying mesh, and derive polygon counts of entire scenes and character models.

You can be the Dark10x/Quaz51 of polycounts from now on.

 

[soulassssns]

A new day, a new Wii U story of woe.

Is this the most maligned console since the Philips CD-i?

Only to those that do not own 1 and are actually enjoying it.

 

[orioto]

I'd worry if they don't wow at next E3.

I wouldn't now.

They(like many companies have done before) rushed the console out for the holiday and for some reason, just focused on the immediate future of games.

They have their own timetable and rhyme and reason and there is a method to their "madness" but of course most people like you and I wish they'd handle that much differently.

Well we can turn in in every direction, in the end that's pretty simple and everyone is seeing it right now. Nintendo had a slight shot at taking a good start in this generation to compete with the other consoles. Now they are pretty much stuck with their core audience and eventual casuals.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

Only to those that do not own 1 and are actually enjoying it.

Are you saying that people who don't have Wii Us are having more fun with them than people who own them?

 

[Oblivion]

The Zelda demo ? I'm absolutely sure there is nothing more than current gen in it if you see it at the IQ it was in truth.

Was the Zelda demo 60 fps or 30 fps?

 

[teh_pwn]

I think cost and energy use come before ease of use with decisions of this nature. Talented developers can learn to make games on anything.

Dude...smart phones beat that.

GAF experts LOL

Gotta love them.

Yes, because clearly a CPU core design derived from a derivative of a 2000 design in the same family of CPUs is going to be 3x more efficient per clock as the Xenon. Makes total sense.

 

[Zombie James]

Not related to clock speeds, but seems like he's found his motivation for hacking:

Okay, Nintendo just guaranteed I'll have to hack the Wii U. Why? I can't play it. Turns out it doesn't support analog audio output + HDMI.

I have a projector. It doesn't do HDMI audio. I use analog audio. Every single other device supports simultaneous HDMI + analog. Wii U fail.

 

[orioto]

Was the Zelda demo 60 fps or 30 fps?

at least it was 720pp no AA, with not crazy geometry, in a closed and simple room. The light wasn't dynamic, plus it wasn't gameplay so it should be compared to real time cut scenes in current gen games.

 

[Boss Man]

GAF experts LOL

Gotta love them.

From my experience of counting polygons in games.

This is how the world turns.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Are you saying that people who don't have Wii Us are having new fun with them than people who own them?

I think he's saying that it's all doom and gloom and another daily thread of it here when almost everyone that actually has the system sees it much differently.

I've had so much fun with the system and I wasn't expecting too much because the big hitters aren't in the near future.

You would think it's a shitty console from those(many which obviously have no interest at all nor ever did in it) here.

 

[lwilliams3]

By that logic, we really have no reason to think that the 720 and PS4 will be any more powerful then the Wii U. If we can only form thoughts based on results.

I'll be honest and say I am very disappointed by the U, and have been for a while (though keeping my mouth mostly shut). But as a simple statement of fact, no, we have not yet seen what the hardware can do when actually fully accessible to devs. Basic aspects of it were locked out. We'll see in the future how it affects things. Maybe it'll have a substantial difference, maybe a small one.

Thanks for the info and honesty, Matt. If anything, this news makes me more interested in what is going on with the Wii U's GPU "latte". Nintendo appeared to used up nearly all of Wii U's wattage budget on it.

Nice hint !! (you just added more fire to the thread)

Heh, just realized that the hint I thought I was talking about was not one at all. I blame looking at the thread with a phone

 

[gryz]

can this thread just be about everyone's experiences counting polygons in games?

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

What about the bird demo? The one shown on the show floor?

 

[Perkel]

I didn't say that.

"As of what said" that was my original sentence, somewhat ended up like i posted.

but today polycount doesn't matter that much still stand and what you described is not that much

In whole levels sure. But for actual individual objects? No way.

I don't want to even point what is wrong with that statement. 1mln poly is 1 mln poly individual or scatered or level doesn't matter and you could easly take 6 or more 200-300k poly cars in line and watch them in game which is alone above 1 mln poly not counting racetrack.

Ok...? I don't see what this has to do with me.

[/QUOTE]

You know polygons and shaders, ligtning. Things that matter when you render scene and things that obviously don't have clue about.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

From my experience of counting polygons in games.

What

 

[jrDev]

There is something worrying me about the WiiU graphics. I've tried and tried to be optimistic, but something doesn't smell good.

Every console, even when it had a good portion of not so impressive launch title, bad ports etc.. Every console has some form of demo of what's coming. You know, where you can say "oh yeah sure most of the games are underwhelming but look at .. uncharted on vita, or RE on 3ds, or even project gotham racing on 360 back then. There is always something that is there to show off.

Why isn't there any of that on WiiU. I mean some games look good, i love the art direction of the wonderful 101 for exemple, but nothing is there to show us that it's capable of something PS3 or 360 wouldn't be. Even the Shinen game, when those guys are basically demo makers with magic tricks all aver their sleeves, isn't anything more than pretty low poly with normal maps on top of it. The Zelda demo ? I'm absolutely sure there is nothing more than current gen in it if you see it at the IQ it was in truth.

So ok, i can wait to see more, but something somewhere tells me there is a reason we see nothing of that type even now that the console is out.

I'm guessing you forgot the Wii?

 

[GaimeGuy]

So we have a GPGPU with an out of order CPU to help complement the GPU.

Sort of like a hybrid where the GPU is the is the gas engine that really drives the car and the CPU is the electric battery there to help give the car its initial jolt and take part of the load off of the engine.

Getting the most of the Wii U will involve properly utilizing the CPU to handle code branching while allowing the GPU to handle the raw throughput once the branch is determined.

What do we know about the cache on the Wii U? I seem to recall hearing that i would have an L3 cache. A large cache along with a large, but slow RAM pool could prove useful, as you could cache some of the CPU instruction sets for fast access while keeping the high-volume data about your game environment (world parameters, graphics and the like) in RAM for the GPU