Support NeoGAF

[Gahiggidy]

....

Now that's interesting. The thermal design seems to be quite similar to that of the Wii at a glance, with a slightly larger air outlet at the back, but more and larger air intakes. Also, whereas the Wii had the outlet centered, in this case it's off center. I would guess that the system uses a closed cooling system (big intake on the right side plus small intake on top -> outlet on the back) for the CPU and GPU in addition to an open cooling system for passively cooled components. So, while the case appears very similar in size, it looks like it's designed for more and/ or bigger components (more space for CPU, GPU, RAM), a much bigger airflow and therefore, a much higher cooling capability.

Also, I noticed that the Wii's back vent had 25 square holes while the wiiU has 21 rectangles. ...hmmmm.


Btw, those side vent-guard "flaps" remind me of the Gamecube.

 

[Gahiggidy]

Wii[B]u[/B]: 1.80 * 6.80 * 10.50 = [B]128.52 [/B]square inches
 Wii: 1.73 * 6.18 *  8.48 =  [B]90.66[/B] square inches

That's a 42% increase in volume.

 

[Cow Mengde]

Now that's interesting. The thermal design seems to be quite similar to that of the Wii at a glance, with a slightly larger air outlet at the back, but more and larger air intakes. Also, whereas the Wii had the outlet centered, in this case it's off center. I would guess that the system uses a closed cooling system (big intake on the right side plus small intake on top -> outlet on the back) for the CPU and GPU in addition to an open cooling system for passively cooled components. So, while the case appears very similar in size, it looks like it's designed for more and/ or bigger components (more space for CPU, GPU, RAM), a much bigger airflow and therefore, a much higher cooling capability.

You know what it looks like to me? A huge rectangular box built to encase a GPU. I know, the GPU probably isn't that big, but I can't help but remember those hilariously large GPUs we've been seeing these past few years.

 

[Eradicate]

That's the same video shown in the E3 press conference, just lower resolution than the feed from gametrailers which was HD. you can tell because in this one the tree doesn't have self-shadowing and the real-time demo has self-shadowing on the tree branches.

That's a great catch defferoo! I think it's great that the real time demo using the hardware has these better effects and all than what they showed. I really want to see the real time, direct feed video using the hardware!

Also, you guys do some great work in figuring out all this hardware stuff. It's very impressive!

 

[Luigiv]

Wii[B]u[/B]: 1.80 * 6.80 * 10.50 = [B]128.52 [/B][U]cubic[/U] inches
 Wii: 1.73 * 6.18 *  8.48 =  [B]90.66[/B] [U]cubic[/U] inches

That's a 42% increase in volume.

Fixed.

 

[Busaiku]

Fixed.

It doesn't do 3D!

 

[herzogzwei1989]

I've been away from GAF for almost a day, catching up on sleep. I'm just trying to catch up on any news. Do we know anything new about the CPU, GPU or RAM yet?

 

[Chao]

Wii[B]u[/B]: 1.80 * 6.80 * 10.50 = [B]128.52 [/B]square inches
 Wii: 1.73 * 6.18 *  8.48 =  [B]90.66[/B] square inches

That's a 42% increase in volume.

That's almost 2 Wiis ductaped together

 

[mrklaw]

People talking about "better than PC" need to understand that we've barely scratched the surface on what's possible on PC because of consoles holding them back.

...therefore things can still be 'better than PC'. You can't argue that the PC is capable of more, you can only go on what it is outputting now. (I agree with you, consoles are holding it back)

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

I'm going to stop you right there. Nintendo used to LOVE taking specs prior to Wii. I remember well how for the GameCube launch they were very proud of their new kit and would openly discuss all the details of the hardware... even going so far as to setup interviews with technical journals for the engineers who worked on "dolphin". Between thier full unvieiling at E3-01 and the GameCube launch they tried very hard to hype the abilities of the console... but you know what happened? Again and again news stories covering the GameCube and Xbox launches claimed that that the Cube was far inferior to the PS2 and Xbox because of the meaningless spec that Cube could only do a tenth of the polygons per second(w/o effects!) as the other boxes. Not to mention the absurd idea that not being able to play DVD movies was a sign of less hardware power.

I think Nintendo knows now that they can't win a spec war with Sony. The moment Nintendo releases detailed specs on WiiU Sony will schedule a press event where they will wow reporters with their new research. From then on reporters will have a talking point on how though WiiU is powerful, it's numbers pale in comparison to whatever heck the PS4 is supposedly going to do.

I agree with this.

Nintendo always used to give specs, but always screwed themselves by providing 'real world example' numbers (ie the kind of polys an actual game would be able to push) rather than absolutely meaningless 'theoretical maximum' numbers.

It's almost like the vast majority of people don't actually understand specs, and just think bigger numbers are better.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Hopefully some developers will leak current Wii U dev-kit specs soon, then later provide info on the final hardware. It could be soon, or a long ways off. I think we'll find out sooner or later though.

 

[Luigiv]

I agree with this.

Nintendo always used to give specs, but always screwed themselves by providing 'real world example' numbers (ie the kind of polys an actual game would be able to push) rather than absolutely meaningless 'theoretical maximum' numbers.

It's almost like the vast majority of people don't actually understand specs, and just think bigger numbers are better.

The funniest part about the whole mess was that at the end of the day, it was the GCN that pushed twice the number of polygons per second as it's competitors, not the other way around as many source claimed back in the day.

 

[TheExodu5]

...therefore things can still be 'better than PC'. You can't argue that the PC is capable of more, you can only go on what it is outputting now. (I agree with you, consoles are holding it back)

It can be better than what is currently seen on pc...but yes you can easily argue that the PC is capable of more. I mean, there's just no way consumer level hardware is going to compete with GPUs using 300W (and PC's totalling over 500W of power).

 

[Mr_Brit]

It can be better than what is currently seen on pc...but yes you can easily argue that the PC is capable of more. I mean, there's just no way consumer level hardware is going to compete with GPUs using 300W (and PC's totalling over 500W of power).

Lol, what GPUs use 300W, even a GTX 580 only uses 240W and that is in a PC, the equivalent in a console would pull nearer 200W due to no memory, power supply efficiency and no separate PCB.

 

[KrawlMan]

So, sorry if this has already been discussed but, which rumors were pointing out the R700 GPU and did anything else from those specific rumors come true?

I ask this because I wonder if Nintendo has even solidified the console specs in the slightest. I know they have a hardware spec sheet out there w/ the consoles dimensions etc, but considering how much they downplayed any question about the system's power could it just be that they haven't landed on exactly how powerful they want to make it?

There's too many conflicting things circulating about the power right now. On one hand the Darksiders group said it was definitely more powerful than the current gen. On the other hand the Ubisoft team danced around the question, not even willing to say if it was at least equally as powerful. The whole situation is kind of weird.

 

[DrM]

There's too many conflicting things circulating about the power right now. On one hand the Darksiders group said it was definitely more powerful than the current gen. On the other hand the Ubisoft team danced around the question, not even willing to say if it was at least equally as powerful. The whole situation is kind of weird.

Speak to much about WiiU power and ninjas will get you. Probably there are limits in contract, what developers can say to the media about this 'hot' topic.

 

[TheExodu5]

Lol, what GPUs use 300W, even a GTX 580 only uses 240W and that is in a PC, the equivalent in a console would pull nearer 200W due to no memory, power supply efficiency and no separate PCB.

The GTX 580 does use 300W in Furmark.

I don't think we've ever seen consoles with power usage much over 240W total before.

This is before the limiter comes into play, which actually reduces the clock speeds of the card when it uses too much power (which only really happens in synthetic benchmarks). Still, it speaks to the capabilities of the card.

A console will have to deal with closer to 200w total power, for the entire console (I think PS3 is the highest we've seen, at roughly 240w TDP). Consoles simply cannot fit nearly as much power as today's high end PCs, for practical purposes.

 

[Eradicate]

Just a dumb thought, but would knowing the graphics card used DirectX 11 help at all? I know that Nintendo wouldn't utilize DirectX 11 for a multitude of reasons, but I was curious if it'd be helpful knowledge in pinpointing the sort of card Nintendo would use?

I saw this bit in an AMD blog located here

The newest addition to the Nintendo family continues the trend of Nintendo consoles powered by AMD-designed graphics processors. With over 35 million DirectX® 11 compatible GPUs shipped to date, AMD is the leader in superior graphics technology.

I guess I'm just interested in hearing about what comparable cards might be used and customized for the Wii U. After reading all the speculation threads and hearing from all of you all, it's just an interest right now.

Also, no true direct feed video of the demo yet?

 

[StevieP]

Just a dumb thought, but would knowing the graphics card used DirectX 11 help at all? I know that Nintendo wouldn't utilize DirectX 11 for a multitude of reasons, but I was curious if it'd be helpful knowledge in pinpointing the sort of card Nintendo would use?

I saw this bit in an AMD blog located here



I guess I'm just interested in hearing about what comparable cards might be used and customized for the Wii U. After reading all the speculation threads and hearing from all of you all, it's just an interest right now.

Also, no true direct feed video of the demo yet?

That statement doesn't make mention of a DX11-class GPU being in the U.

 

[Lonely1]

Just a dumb thought, but would knowing the graphics card used DirectX 11 help at all? I know that Nintendo wouldn't utilize DirectX 11 for a multitude of reasons, but I was curious if it'd be helpful knowledge in pinpointing the sort of card Nintendo would use?

I saw this bit in an AMD blog located here



I guess I'm just interested in hearing about what comparable cards might be used and customized for the Wii U. After reading all the speculation threads and hearing from all of you all, it's just an interest right now.

Also, no true direct feed video of the demo yet?

DirectX11 Capable GPU? Now that's some good news! (I hope is nut just a translation error). You should post this in the Wii tech specification thread.

That statement doesn't make mention of a DX11-class GPU being in the U.

Maybe you are right, but why not quote DX10+ numbers, then?

 

[mrklaw]

It can be better than what is currently seen on pc...but yes you can easily argue that the PC is capable of more. I mean, there's just no way consumer level hardware is going to compete with GPUs using 300W (and PC's totalling over 500W of power).

tech, sure PC GPUs are more powerful. What ends up on the screen is a different matter.

 

[Eradicate]

It's just something from someone at AMD that I thought would be nice to share. Those two statements have not been provided side-by-side like that before. However, would it be helpful information to know in identifying the card?

I admit that it could be different thoughts. But, similar thoughts are grouped together in paragraphs in journalistic writing. Having a degree in journalism, you can see why I would assume that the ideas are connected. I'll try posing the question to him and see if I can get a response.

 

[Minsc]

tech, sure PC GPUs are more powerful. What ends up on the screen is a different matter.

1080p @ 60fps w/ 4-8xFSAA though. Live the dream! Hopefully next gen consoles do it, but I am not counting on it.

Edit: forgot to mention with AA!

 

[mrklaw]

1080p @ 60fps w/ 4-8xFSAA though. Live the dream! Hopefully next gen consoles do it, but I am not counting on it.

Edit: forgot to mention with AA!

other than the FSAA, I expect WiiU to manage it. Next gen consoles at least that with MLAA or similar

 

[USC-fan]

Wii[B]u[/B]: 1.80 * 6.80 * 10.50 = [B]128.52 [/B]square inches
 Wii: 1.73 * 6.18 *  8.48 =  [B]90.66[/B] square inches

That's a 42% increase in volume.

Wii used at max 25 watts.

Even a 40% increase would put it under 50watts. About half the ps3 slim and xbox360s. really dont see any way there is high end, high powered hardware that was rumored.

i really think they made it to match the ps3/x360 not beat it and all the comments from Nintendo say just about the same thing.

 

[DrM]

I still think that that was only a mockup of real console, so this was the reason for their secrecy. Also, Nintendo is well known for their cooling solutions inside their systems.

 

[wsippel]

Wii used at max 25 watts.

Even a 40% increase would put it under 50watts. About half the ps3 slim and xbox360s. really dont see any way there is high end, high powered hardware that was rumored.

i really think they made it to match the ps3/x360 not beat it and all the comments from Nintendo say just about the same thing.

That's not how it works. The drive didn't get 40% bigger and the Gamecube ports didn't get 40% bigger (in fact, they're now 100% smaller). What got bigger, however, are the vents. Much, much bigger.

 

[KrawlMan]

I've asked this in another thread already, but why isn't there a nice high quality video of this tech demo yet? The one in the OP is an ugly low res version from the stream :-/

 

[wsippel]

I've asked this in another thread already, but why isn't there a nice high quality video of this tech demo yet? The one in the OP is an ugly low res version from the stream :-/

Nintendo won't release anything I guess. There's a 720p offscreen version on Youtube, though, showing the full four minute demo with some additional effects.

 

[Truth101]

I've asked this in another thread already, but why isn't there a nice high quality video of this tech demo yet? The one in the OP is an ugly low res version from the stream :-/

Because Nintendo hasn't released one yet.

 

[Luckyman]

Wii used at max 25 watts.

Even a 40% increase would put it under 50watts. About half the ps3 slim and xbox360s. really dont see any way there is high end, high powered hardware that was rumored.

i really think they made it to match the ps3/x360 not beat it and all the comments from Nintendo say just about the same thing.

Its worthless to argue about termal designs with these guys. Butbutbut.. Laptops can do this and that.. worthless.

01net already said ages a go its a notch above current systems. They were the first to report exact features that have been unveiled so far. They are 100% more reliable than IGN

 

[+Aliken+]

According to one of the write-ups, the nature demo was actually a bit longer than what we saw during the conference. It continues after the koi jump. There is a hawk or larger bird that hops around in the snow.

Found it (Kotaku):

The sparrow dropped that blossom into the lake, drawing the attention of a school of koi. The fish emerged from the surface, splashing, scales glistening wet. A bright orange koi leapt from the pond, again kicking in a dramatic slow-motion pause.

The "Garden" demonstration then refocused its attention on another bird, a falcon gliding over a softly rippling lake. The demo dramatically slowed to zoom in on the bird as it flew by, offering a detailed look at its plumage, each feather rendered in a photorealistic style. It soared over a rock garden, magically drawing concentric circles in the dry sands with a powerful mystic wind. Snow began to fall, at first whipping in the wind but eventually collecting. The Falcon landed. It hopped through the piling snow, leaving impressions on its surface in real-time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OHUwDShrD4

 

[KrawlMan]

Because Nintendo hasn't released one yet.

I assumed that much already, I'm just looking for anything better than the stream video because I know it was on the show floor. IGN managed a very impressive video of Zelda HD Experience and I was hoping this trailer might get the same attention.

Nintendo won't release anything I guess. There's a 720p offscreen version on Youtube, though, showing the full four minute demo with some additional effects.

I guess ill search around on youtube again...unless of course you have the link?
Edit: nvm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OHUwDShrD4

Thanks!

 

[USC-fan]

That's not how it works. The drive didn't get 40% bigger and the Gamecube ports didn't get 40% bigger (in fact, they're now 100% smaller). What got bigger, however, are the vents. Much, much bigger.

Those thing dont really matter....

It almost 2.5-3x smaller than a xbox 360 s and the xbox is at 45nm and uses an external power brick. Xbox 360 s uses 95 watts max btw.

I still think its going to right around 40-60 watts max unless they make some changes to the case. people have been thinking it some how has a 100watt gpu...i just dont see that being possible... IMO.

 

[Bert]

Those thing dont really matter....

It almost 2.5-3x smaller than a xbox 360 s and the xbox is at 45nm and uses an external power brick. Xbox 360 s uses 95 watts max btw.

I still think its going to right around 40-60 watts max unless they make some changes to the case. people have been thinking it some how has a 100watt gpu...i just dont see that being possible... IMO.

I'm not a tech head by any shot, but GC was considerably smaller than either of the other 2 and at least on par graphically, if not arguably ahead in some areas. It is fair to say Nintendo have much better hardware designers than either MS or Sony.

Also remember the 360s has a built in hard drive. The Wii U has Flash memory

 

[USC-fan]

I'm not a tech head by any shot, but GC was considerably smaller than either of the other 2 and at least on par graphically, if not arguably ahead in some areas. It is fair to say Nintendo have much better hardware designers than either MS or Sony.

Also remember the 360s has a built in hard drive. The Wii U has Flash memory

No, its not fair to say...

 

[AceBandage]

Actually, it is fair to say. The 360 was a design nightmate until the slim.

The Wii U has a lot of dissipation surface and a lot of ventilation slots that are perfect for active cooling. It can also only be laied horizontally, which means that that heat will be dissipated better.

 

[USC-fan]

Actually, it is fair to say. The 360 was a design nightmate until the slim.

The Wii U has a lot of dissipation surface and a lot of ventilation slots that are perfect for active cooling. It can also only be laied horizontally, which means that that heat will be dissipated better.

How does that relate to "Nintendo have much better hardware designers than either MS or Sony." ?

Seeing that IBM/ATI design the chips in the xbox 360 that cause the problems.

 

[wsippel]

Those thing dont really matter....

It almost 2.5-3x smaller than a xbox 360 s and the xbox is at 45nm and uses an external power brick. Xbox 360 s uses 95 watts max btw.

I still think its going to right around 40-60 watts max unless they make some changes to the case. people have been thinking it some how has a 100watt gpu...i just dont see that being possible... IMO.

Well, they actually do matter. I guess you've never seen the interior of a Slim? The MCM including the cooling system (which sure looks cheap, with very few, thick fins) takes up a quarter to a third of the case. Behind that is a 2.5" slot for a harddrive, above is a bulky PC DVD drive. Behind the DVD drive is... nothing. Tons of wasted space.

WiiU, like 360S, seems to use a closed cooling system for it's main components, driven by a single 40mm fan. Now, from the pictures, it doesn't look like a typical 40x40x10 fan, it's probably 40x40x20 or even 40x40x28. Even though the fan is small, 40mm fans have a capacity of up to 40 cubic meters per hour. With a well designed heat sink, that's enough for about 100W heat (all components combined).

The process isn't nearly as important as you think it is, either. The savings are by no means linear. The smallest process IBM offers at that point is 32nm. That would save, I don't know, maybe 10-15%? Somewhere around that. A more modern architecture is much more important than a smaller process.


EDIT: Contrary to popular belief, Nintendo has their own chip designers at NTD (Nintendo Technology Development). Former sgi and MIPS guys. They work with the IBM and AMD guys. It's not like Nintendo contracts those companies and waits for them to deliver something.

 

[MrHicks]

getting xbox tech demo vibes from this

 

[Shin Johnpv]

How does that relate to "Nintendo have much better hardware designers than either MS or Sony." ?

Seeing that IBM/ATI design the chips in the xbox 360 that cause the problems.

I always thought what caused the problem was really poor cooling design. Meaning the system wasn't designed well enough to pull the heat off the chips and motherboard and out of the system. If that is the case then its bad design on MS's part.

 

[Hero of Legend]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVKMMYFbVgk

At the very end you can see a tad more of the demo, where the falcon hops on the snow.

Edit: And here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Nsa06KRLo

I guess that is the very end of the demo.

 

[BurritoBushido]

Wow, the parts of that tech demo they didnt show in the conference are WAY more impressive. Nintendo totally botched their conference

 

[Technosteve]

tech demo video look low rez, what's up with that?

 

[J-Rock]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVKMMYFbVgk

At the very end you can see a tad more of the demo, where the falcon hops on the snow.

Edit: And here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Nsa06KRLo

I guess that is the very end of the demo.

Thanks for these. The falcon part looks nice. Cool how they can look around the world with the controller.

 

[Alexios]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVKMMYFbVgk

At the very end you can see a tad more of the demo, where the falcon hops on the snow.

Edit: And here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Nsa06KRLo

I guess that is the very end of the demo.

So wait, that thing is actually rendering the whole scene twice?! I thought the TV view would also change when you move the controller around to control the camera, and the system would just transmit the TV view as streamed video to the controller. Here the camera angle is different on the TV and completely independent on the pad.

 

[AceBandage]

So wait, the thing is rendering the view twice? I thought the TV view would also change when you move the controller around, and the system would transmit the TV view to the controller. Here it actually looks like it's rendering the scene twice becuase the camera angle is different in the TV and controllable independently on the controller.

Yeah, it's basically rendering it twice.
This is also what was being done on the Killer Freaks demo, where you used the controller to aim.
It would render the game on the tv, and the character's view on the controller.

 

[Alexios]

That's pretty damn impressive then, even considering the lower resolution of the pad. No wonder there are frame rate drops here and there.

How come none of those tech heads dissecting the system's capabilities (lol) mentioned this before? Unless I missed it of course.

 

[dilatedmuscle]

getting xbox tech demo vibes from this

The difference is, those models probably have more polygons then the models in the zelda tech demo lol.

Although i take it with a grain of salt, these tech demo's showed certain graphical features that are in Battlefield 3. The models were reasonable in polycount and the textures were decent... if they really wanted to BS it, they couldve stepped up the textures and models a little more.

 

[jett]

Did the water glitch at the end there? Looked really weird.

That's pretty damn impressive then, even considering the lower resolution of the pad. No wonder there are frame rate drops here and there.

How come none of those tech heads dissecting the system's capabilities (lol) mentioned this before? Unless I missed it of course.

I've read it reports of the resolution dropping on the TV image when it streams games like that, so that's how it achieves that. Digital Foundry touched on this, actually.