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Witcher 3 and Diversity (Luke Maciak)

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And here is nice answer to that article.

https://medium.com/@adrianchm/on-the-witcher-3-and-racial-quotas-in-art-e6a9f594439

And i wanted to stop reading Lukes article when i saw this



and Adrian noticed same.

Makes some good counter points.

I've been playing the game for a while now and hadn't noticed anything out of sorts, it's my first Witcher game but I assumed it was supposed to be happening in like, 11th century northern Europe or something, so the racial makeup didn't seem out of place for that time period.
 
Hey, there are black/darker skinned people in The Witcher 3! They're monsters, though, soooo...

Succubi. I'm only level 14 though.
 

Haunted

Member
I thought black people in the witcherverse lived in zerrakania which is really far away from where W3 takes place?
Yeah, it's really a stretch that there's not a single Zerrikan in the biggest city on the continent.

Along with some merchants scattered throughout, they probably should have an embassy in Novigrad with some Zerrikan guards walking around.


That said, I can't deny that the game world feels cohesive and believable even without more ethnic variety.
 
As a "person of color" myself, I feel guilty that I don't care about the lack of brown/black/dark skin tones in the world's NPCs & characters. I'm too busy being immersed in the world CDPR has built and role playing as Geralt.

Of course someone could argue that I've been programmed and desensitized by society to accept the lack of representation of colored people's in video games.

But, eh, it doesn't bother me with NPCs and pre-defined characters like Geralt.

Yet if I were to play game with a character creator (Skyrim, Mass Effect, Splatoon, etc) and I could not give my character dark brown skin; I'd be very upset and would simply get rid of the game.
 

ironcreed

Banned
So this is how racism feels, huh?
"As an actual Slavic person, who was born and grew up in Russia" I feel quite offended

clapping-gif24.gif
 

Faynwulf

Member
I stopped reading after he said that Slavic Mythology isn't a thing. It might not have a huge Pantheon of gods but it is still a thing. And you know what? The Books and Games of the Witcher Universe are full of references to this and some middle-european Mythologies.
 

Moobabe

Member
Makes some good counter points.

I've been playing the game for a while now and hadn't noticed anything out of sorts, it's my first Witcher game but I assumed it was supposed to be happening in like, 11th century northern Europe or something, so the racial makeup didn't seem out of place for that time period.

He does - and literally posts 5 texts (probably the first 5 he could Google) about Slavic and Polish mythology, which the article in the OP claims doesn't exist.
 

Daingurse

Member
As a black male, the lack of person's of color did not really bother me personally, but they could have easily put some Zerrikanians in the game. Brown people do exist in the Witcher-verse.
 

sasliquid

Member
I problem with calling this "outrage culture" is you have to start asking yourself where social criticism starts and "outrage" begins. Matt lees did a good video about implicit politics in games which I think this is a good example of, the developers didn't go out to not include black people but at the same time didn't attempt to build that diversity (despite there are examples in lore and that this a 100+ game with a gazillion side quests)

Also lets not get Adrain Chmielarz into a conversation about diversity with his history of pro Gamergate stuff
 

Moobabe

Member
I problem with calling this "outrage culture" is you have to start asking yourself where social criticism starts and "outrage" begins. Matt lees did a good video about implicit politics in games which I think this is a good example of, the developers didn't go out to not include black people but at the same time didn't attempt to build that diversity (despite there are examples in lore and that this a 100+ game with a gazillion side quests)

Also lets not get Adrain Chmielarz into a conversation about diversity with his history of pro Gamergate stuff

Is he wrong though? Regardless of where he's stood on previous issues?
 

Ysiadmihi

Banned
With everyone looking for any opportunity to be offended, I can't imagine anything going wrong by dropping representations of real life minorities into a world like TW3's. Nope, nothing at all.

Keep in mind the game has already been under fire by a prominent critic because bandits and hired thugs use "gendered slurs" towards a female character they're trying to kill.
 

Tovarisc

Member
So, why we are singling out Witcher 3 when it comes to NPC diversity? It just gives most clicks to your articles so it's convenient to single it out and drag down to the mud? TB tweeted about this earlier and I think it made a lot sense;

“We should raise concerns about race, but it needs to be consistent.”
--Tauriq Moosa, Colorblind: On Witcher 3, Rust, and gaming's race problem
http://www.polygon.com/2015/6/3/8719389/colorblind-on-witcher-3-rust-and-gamings-race-problem

Depending upon who and where you are, Gone Home is arguably among the whitest games of all time. Life is Strange has, what, a single, tertiary character of color? Neither title inspired a single editorial on this trait, nor did reviews take issue with their lack of diversity, their overwhelming whiteness. I'm not contending that Gone Home necessarily needed characters of color; that it would be better off if Terry was black, if Janice was Indian, if Sam was biracial, and if Kaitlin had been an adopted Korean. Nor am I arguing that if we're going to demand representational diversity from The Witcher, then we need also ask it from other games with ostensibly progressive politics (like The Witcher).

I agree wholeheartedly that inadequate representation of people of color in popular videogames is indeed a very real concern. I agree that gaming's monochromatic look isn't good; that ideally the range of games released in a year would afford the Brazilian, the Iranian, the Nigerian, and the white Norwegian alike the opportunity to assume the roles of heroes and heroines with whom they share physical and cultural resemblance. The problem, though, is not that Gone Home is white, or that The Witcher is white. The problem is that what is true for these two titles is also true for the majority of games that are popular in North America and Europe. (I emphasize popularity because while game development communities in regions such as Iran create products that, in this example, prominently feature Persian characters http://kotaku.com/5835402/a-look-at-41-of-irans-best-video-games/ these games are practically unknown in America.) When the issue is that the Western market as a whole fails to mirror the present racial makeup of America and Europe, it seems odd to single out one Polish product as the poster child of gaming's “race problem.” The goal here is for the aggregate of games to represent human diversity. The goal is not that each and every game adopt the approach that characterizes Girl Scout cookie packaging.

Moosa contends that in omitting people of color, and instead including fantasy races with which to “mimic real world racist policies” The Witcher 'literally dehumanizes people of color.' I haven't played enough of The Witcher III to say for certain, but I do doubt that the game is so foolish as to substitute specific human groups with its assorted fantasy races. I suspect we'd see many more editorials if, for instance, Trolls stood in for Arabs, or elves for Africans. The inclusion of a few characters of color would open CD Projekt to charges of tokenism, and certainly these characters could come under the microscope as unfairly and potentially unfavorably representing entire races and cultures if CD Projekt's Polish writers stumbled. So knowing that CD Projekt was committed to creating a fantasy world that humans share with other human-like species, diversity could either come from expanding the game's scope to include kingdoms across the globe (in addition to the franchise's mythical monsters), or radically reworking the society it does depict to more closely resemble modern America. Both options are promising, but I don't know that they conform with the game CD Projekt wanted to – or was able to – deliver. Instead of expecting a Polish game to reflect the attempt of white people to properly represent the entirety of our planet's cultural and ethnic diversity, I'd prefer shelves (or Steam's store) to invite us into a wider realm of experiences created by and for demographically diverse collections of people who more closely resemble the inhabitants of our world.
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1smgq9a
 
I problem with calling this "outrage culture" is you have to start asking yourself where social criticism starts and "outrage" begins. Matt lees did a good video about implicit politics in games which I think this is a good example of, the developers didn't go out to not include black people but at the same time didn't attempt to build that diversity (despite there are examples in lore and that this a 100+ game with a gazillion side quests)

Also lets not get Adrain Chmielarz into a conversation about diversity with his history of pro Gamergate stuff

This is my issue as well. The people exist in the Witcher universe. I'm not sure what's unreasonable about expecting just a little bit of diversity in this vast open world. The fact that's it's being considered unreasonable... ridiculous.
 

ironcreed

Banned
I'm glad I don't go out of my way to notice stuff like this. Not everything has to be 100% politically correct all of the time in order to appease everyone. Stop looking for stuff to be offended by when there is no intention to offend.
 

Reebot

Member
What an incredibly rude tone for this article to take, especially when it comes right out of the gate admitting its mostly baseless speculation.

The world of the Witcher is consumed by racial hate and violence. Its an environment that could give birth to some really interesting stories about discrimination and its effects; this theme is already explored heavily with the non-human characters. Adding racial diversity to the human population could clearly benefit the game - given the right amount of time and talent devoted to cultivating these story lines. Diversity simply dropped into the world would shatter the fiction and harm the experience, directly contradicting the ever-present racism.

That said, this author is completely out of line with his personal insults.
 

misho8723

Banned
So now every piece of art, should have been political correct ? Or if someone wants to create a new universe in HIS OWN work, it NEEDS (should) to have people and characters of every race? WTF?
Why so many famous and great books, stories, movies, etc. don't have more characters of more than one race ?

As a white person, I don't give a shit if all the person in the story are black people, asian, mexican, etc.. and why should I ? It's the story of the author of that story, it's his vision, he has the control of his work, why should he change his work because of someones else opinion ?
If his work is actually racist, or supports racism (or some kind of violence against minorities - or women, kids, etc.), they yes, that work can be really harmful

But Witcher books or games aren't racist or are supporting racism aswell aren't supporting violence against women..

This discusson is just really silly and more harmful than the games at which those claims are targeting to
 
With everyone looking for any opportunity to be offended, I can't imagine anything going wrong by dropping representations of real life minorities into a world like TW3's. Nope, nothing at all.

Keep in mind the game has already been under fire by a prominent critic because bandits and hired thugs use "gendered slurs" towards a female character they're trying to kill.

Who was the prominent critic? I haven't heard of this.
 

Holundrian

Unconfirmed Member
What's this about needing an advisor to write people of color... what...?
Just write for people especially when it's a fictional universe, someone black in the Witcher wouldn't need to be loaded with our own preconceptions, so I don't see why they would need special people to advise for that(not that I subscribe to the idea anyway that people of certain color have some special race specific perspective, but then that's only how I feel about it, I respect other people feeling different about this).
 
Also lets not get Adrain Chmielarz into a conversation about diversity with his history of pro Gamergate stuff

Yes, let's not. I used to follow him on Twitter because I loved Bulletstorm and I've been waiting for Ethan Carter to his PS4. But I had to unfollow as I found all the pro-GG stuff to be nauseating.
 

bigjig

Member
I hate this idea that there has to be a checklist of representation that needs to apply. It also really weirds me out how this complaint is only ever labelled against games with predominately white casts. Where are the complaints about a "lack of representation" in the Yakuza games for example?
 
Posts wherein a minority says something along the lines of "I'm a minority and it doesn't bother me" really irk me, like those videos that always make it to the front page of reddit wherein a black dude will go on about how if you're just nice to cops they won't shoot you for being black despite the mounting evidence to suggest the contrary.

Great, it's cool that you don't care but a lot of people do, otherwise there wouldn't be this massive push. It is so so important for people to feel some kind of representation in media and particularly when a medium often presents minorities as mere charicatures in the case of racial minorities or subhuman objects for male power fantasies in the case of women it is extremely damaging because it does actually have an effect on people's opinions.

Also it's interesting to note how a lot of people are fine with social criticism when it comes to things they don't care about but are unable to take any criticism when it comes to things they love (such as TW3). You can enjoy something fully while also being aware of its shortcomings or areas in which it could improve.
 
This isn't a direct response to the article or even The Witcher 3 itself, but I'm convinced that you can't release a game, movie, or even novel these days without at least offending someone just because you haven't included a representation of every possible human being in it.

Personally, I hadn't even noticed the lack of "colored" characters in The Witcher 3. I suppose it's because I've been to busy focusing on the gorgeous scenery, well-written story, and intense combat to even care about finding a "morality issue" to latch onto.
 
I hate this idea that there has to be a checklist of representation that needs to apply. It also really weirds me out how this complaint is only ever labelled against games with predominately white casts. Where are the complaints about a "lack of representation" in the Yakuza games for example?

Have... you played a Yakuza game?

I mean, granted, I've only played Yakuza 3.

But I'm pretty sure Yakuza 3 has more diversity then TW3.

Like, it's in Japan and all. But there's black people in the game. I know. A surprise.
 

Alucrid

Banned
So for you Rad Flag is when somebody mentions SJW and it is not Rad Flag when somebody claims that culture, folklore and mythology of one group of people doesn't exist?
Considering his history with gamer gate, yes. At worst it's an attempt to rile up the masses, at best it's just lazy. I have no notion of the op authors history of Slavic mythology denial.
 
Witcher 1 had a black dude



The thing is, he traveled a long way to be in the Northern Kingdoms from his homeland of Zerrikania. Where black people live in the Witcher universe. The games happen in the Northern Kingdoms.

It isn't even a new setup, it's very common in fantasy worlds. Most of the story occur in a more or less white fax-Europeish zone and in the setting there are people that comment how in some far away land (usually to the South or the East) there are exotic people of different skin color.

Wheel of time, Game of Thrones, The Witcher, The Black Company (where in the later books they go South where black people are) and others follow the same pattern.
 

antonz

Member
I problem with calling this "outrage culture" is you have to start asking yourself where social criticism starts and "outrage" begins. Matt lees did a good video about implicit politics in games which I think this is a good example of, the developers didn't go out to not include black people but at the same time didn't attempt to build that diversity (despite there are examples in lore and that this a 100+ game with a gazillion side quests)

Also lets not get Adrain Chmielarz into a conversation about diversity with his history of pro Gamergate stuff

Criticism is fine when its grounded in facts and reality. When you start making up bullshit like there is no such thing as Slavic mythology etc then it is pure Outrage and deserves to be called out on its bullshit

Posts wherein a minority says something along the lines of "I'm a minority and it doesn't bother me" really irk me, like those videos that always make it to the front page of reddit wherein a black dude will go on about how if you're just nice to cops they won't shoot you for being black despite the mounting evidence to suggest the contrary.

Great, it's cool that you don't care but a lot of people do, otherwise there wouldn't be this massive push. It is so so important for people to feel some kind of representation in media and particularly when a medium often presents minorities as mere charicatures in the case of racial minorities or subhuman objects for male power fantasies in the case of women it is extremely damaging because it does actually have an effect on people's opinions.

Also it's interesting to note how a lot of people are fine with social criticism when it comes to things they don't care about but are unable to take any criticism when it comes to things they love (such as TW3). You can enjoy something fully while also being aware of its shortcomings or areas in which it could improve.

I would not even begin to call this a massive push. Its the same old crowd shouting the same old stuff over and over
 
Maybe all the black people are sorceresses/ers and cast a spell to make themselves white so they would be more appealing to those in the world around them.
 

Xando

Member
This is my issue as well. The people exist in the Witcher universe. I'm not sure what's unreasonable about expecting just a little bit of diversity in this vast open world. The fact that's it's being considered unreasonable... ridiculous.
I don't get this. Why does everything has to be 100% political correct? If you don't like how the game treats a gender or race then don't buy it, If enough people share your opinion and don't buy a game devs and publisher will change.

I'm all for diversity but not every game must be 100% political correct.
 

sasliquid

Member
Criticism is fine when its grounded in facts and reality. When you start making up bullshit like there is no such thing as Slavic mythology etc then it is pure Outrage and deserves to be called out on its bullshit

Hey, the article is definetly flawed, I'm just tired of this assumption that all attempts at discussing how predominantly White and male games are are shouted down by claims of "outrage culture"
 
I stopped reading your linked article when I saw this:

"One thing that impresses me about Social Justice Warriors is how they lie openly..."

But he did openly lie.
He had to straight up lie to make his argument.
You'd think that's problematic as well.
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
First, I'm black.

Second, I noticed the absence of any "diversity" in the game.

Third, I wasn't bothered because the game is based on the books. Sure, they could've said "fuck it" and done whatever the fuck they wanted but then it wouldn't really be The Witcher. Now, I do think they could have added some colored people specifically in Novigrad since it's a port city likely filled with sailors/travelers from distant lands but whatever.

Fourth, these guys are making a "Cyberpunk" game you know that franchise created by a Black person. Somehow I don't think they are oblivious to race. Now, if Cyberpunk had no black people we could fucking complain but I'm gonna bet that is not the case.
 
I just sparked this conversation at work today. We're like so there's griffons, vampires, zombies, werewolves, but no one of another ethnicity lol.

It doesn't bother me but I would love to see it.
 
It's true, I would liked to see two certain Zerrikanian female bodyguards that appear on the books... books readers will understand me.
 

Henkka

Banned
Considering his history with gamer gate, yes. At worst it's an attempt to rile up the masses, at best it's just lazy. I have no notion of the op authors history of Slavic mythology denial.

So if the response had been posted anonymously, you could tackle the actual arguments?

I have no idea who this guy is or what his relation to GG is, and I don't care. His response still had merit and his arguments should stand on their own.
 
Criticism is fine when its grounded in facts and reality. When you start making up bullshit like there is no such thing as Slavic mythology etc then it is pure Outrage and deserves to be called out on its bullshit



I would not even begin to call this a massive push. Its the same old crowd shouting the same old stuff over and over
It is a massive push. Look at the number of minorities in recent games and then tell me there isn't. It's happening but it's happening slowly.
 

Rafterman

Banned
So for you Rad Flag is when somebody mentions SJW and it is not Rad Flag when somebody claims that culture, folklore and mythology of one group of people doesn't exist?

People who think that the article in the Op is some amazing piece and should be a go-to source for these dicussions aren't to look at anything that changes their preconceived notions or agenda. When the rebuttal tears it to shreds but these people ignore it because of a single word they don't like, that says everything you need to know, really.
 
I don't get this. Why does everything has to be 100% political correct? If you don't like how the game treats a gender or race then don't buy it, If enough people share your opinion and don't buy a game devs and publisher will change.

I'm all for diversity but not every game must be 100% political correct.

I don't get this. I'm not asking for political correctness. I'm asking for a bit of diversity using the established in-game lore of the Witcher universe.
 
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