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[Two Words]

*incident

Does showing two cases make it different? The fact is that it does happen. So instead of the conversations being "Does this happen?", the conversation should be "Does this happen often enough that it must be combatted in a targeted manner?"

You've been stressing that this never ever happens, and that you'd never see a case of it happening. Well, that's apparently not true, so it shouldn't be treated as an absurd notion that some men will lie. I agree that the fact that some men will lie doesn't mean transgender people should suffer. I just think the issue shouldn't be laughed off and that measures should be put in place to mitigate liars and allow trans people to not be used as a scapegoat.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

Well, there have been incidents of men pretending to be transwomen in order to access female-exclusive areas:

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/15/a-sex-predators-sick-deception

That's one incident of a psychopathic, hypersexual predator cross dressing to give himself a better vantage point to prey on women. He's dangerous regardless of what the policy is. Whole other level from a guy putting a wig on to ogle ladies.

And besides, it's not like a guy who wants to pretend to be a woman is going to see a separate trans-only locker room as a deterrent.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Does showing two cases make it different? The fact is that it does happen. So instead of the conversations being "Does this happen?", the conversation should be "Does this happen often enough that it must be combatted in a targeted manner?"

You've been stressing that this never ever happens, and that you'd never see a case of it happening. Well, that's apparently not true, so it shouldn't be treated as an absurd notion that some men will lie. I agree that the fact that some men will lie doesn't mean transgender people should suffer. I just think the issue shouldn't be laughed off and that measures should be put in place to mitigate liars and allow trans people to not be used as a scapegoat.

The conversation has always been "does it happen often enough?"

The answer is an unequivocal "no."

If "one instance" of a person with serious mental issues who would have found some other way to sexually assault people if not for this method is enough, then imagine these loose standards applied to everything else. Everything would be a slippery slope towards something bad.

 

[Anastasia]

This is a bit of a side-note, but something I've noticed a lot in this thread, and I think it's worth keeping in mind. When mentioning a transgender person, it's best to avoid describing them as "transgendered"; even if there's no ill intent (and I'm sure there's not in most cases), for someone who is trans it implies they have a condition, or that something isn't "normal" about them. I think this article explains the distinction well. The tweet used in the article has a good example:

Also, it’s "transgender," not "transgendered." "Transgendered" is the linguistic equivalent of describing someone as "blacked."

Anyway, I just think that is something to keep in mind when debating the main topic(s) at hand. I see people making their points and then they say that and I feel it weakens their argument.

 

[Two Words]

The conversation has always been "does it happen often enough?"

The answer is an unequivocal "no."

If "one instance" of a person with serious mental issues who would have found some other way to sexually assault people if not for this method is enough, then imagine these loose standards applied to everything else. Everything would be a slippery slope towards something bad.

I agree that the slippery slope is bad if used to limit transgender people. I'm just confused why you laugh it off when I mention simply trying to mitigate liars while letting transgender people use the locker they want (the conversation from yesterday)

 

[Izuna]

NVM lemme check up on that first

 

[MisterGrey3000]

Does showing two cases make it different? The fact is that it does happen. So instead of the conversations being "Does this happen?", the conversation should be "Does this happen often enough that it must be combatted in a targeted manner?"

You've been stressing that this never ever happens, and that you'd never see a case of it happening. Well, that's apparently not true, so it shouldn't be treated as an absurd notion that some men will lie. I agree that the fact that some men will lie doesn't mean transgender people should suffer. I just think the issue shouldn't be laughed off and that measures should be put in place to mitigate liars and allow trans people to not be used as a scapegoat.

It still is an incredibly absurd notion/hypothetical worthy of being dismissed seeing as the only evidence we have of how frequent this is and could potentially be involves one case (mentioned 18 pages in) revolving around a mentally unstable sex offender.
:/

 

[A Link to the Past]

I agree that the slippery slope is bad if used to limit transgender people. I'm just confused why you laugh it off when I mention simply trying to mitigate liars while letting transgender people use the locker they want (the conversation from yesterday)

I laugh it off because what you're describing is unbelievably rare, and all of zero states that theoretically could lead to abuse of these rights, have not lead to abuse of these rights. It becomes a further issue when the argument was made that this is a concern we must consider, but only search for evidence when someone claims that the idea is bunk (which it is).

 

[Omega Ultimus]

I agree that the slippery slope is bad if used to limit transgender people. I'm just confused why you laugh it off when I mention simply trying to mitigate liars while letting transgender people use the locker they want (the conversation from yesterday)

This wasn't just any ordinary "liar". From the article:

Wilkie diagnosed him with an anti-social personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, determined he was dependent on alcohol and drugs and had multiple sexual deviancies. He was rated as a high risk to re-offend sexually.

Those are severe forms of psychosis, and nothing will really stop them from doing what they want if they aren't put into an institution.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Not an easy situation for anyone. I can't fault any of the parties involved. This is still a relatively new issue for most people. It'll take some time for thee public's awareness and comfort levels to rise. It's less of an issue in men's rooms, but women have safety concerns. PEACE.

 

[Izuna]

This is a bit of a side-note, but something I've noticed a lot in this thread, and I think it's worth keeping in mind. When mentioning a transgender person, it's best to avoid describing them as "transgendered"; even if there's no ill intent (and I'm sure there's not in most cases), for someone who is trans it implies they have a condition, or that something isn't "normal" about them. I think this article explains the distinction well. The tweet used in the article has a good example:



Anyway, I just think that is something to keep in mind when debating the main topic(s) at hand. I see people making their points and then they say that and I feel it weakens their argument.

Trans is short for transition. People don't "black" themselves as much as MJ had to "whiten" himself.

No one will continue to use that term if they are called out on it, but it in no way compares to "blacked".

EDIT: Yes it is

Oh my the many terms wikipedia hit me up with.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Trans is short for transition. People don't "black" themselves as much as MJ had to "whiten" himself.

No one will continue to use that term if they are called out on it, but it in no way compares to "blacked".

EDIT: Yes it is

Oh my the many terms wikipedia hit me up with.

Not all trans people have transitioned. Trans means that their gender does not conform to their physical sex.

 

[breakfastchampion]

I do not know that much about that, but doesnt doctors have to "analyze" first whether you are a man or a woman "inside"?

I know in Germany before you have an operation you need a document by a doctor that acknowledges that you were born into the wrong body.

The World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) is an international organization that publishes recommendations on how and when certain gender-confirming therapies can be accessed by trans people. They call these recommendations the 'standards of care' and it's the guide most adept physicians and psychologists use to help trans patients. Here it is in English and here in German. They update it every decade or so because the science behind understanding transexuality and the societal acceptance of such keep evolving.

They used to have much stricter recommendations on when someone could take certain steps in transition, but the current model is that of "informed consent," where if someone understands the risks of the treatment (hormone replacement, breast augmentation/reduction, genital surgery, etc) and feels they feel it will benefit them, then they can move forward with that treatment. Of course no one is encouraged to rush through any of these decisions, but for most trans people they've been thinking about it since they were children.
Laws vary by location, no one is obligated to follow the Standards of Care, but it's the best resource on the matter available right now.

 

[charlequin]

Trans is short for transition.

"Trans is a Latin noun or prefix, meaning "across", "beyond" or "on the opposite side"." Transgender and transition originate from the same root.

 

[Izuna]

"Trans is a Latin noun or prefix, meaning "across", "beyond" or "on the opposite side"." Transgender and transition originate from the same root.

Eh, where did that second part come from?

The differentiation between transgender and transsexual is currently lost on me. I'm reading up more.

Edit: NVM it's an umbrella term

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Of course no one is encouraged to rush through any of these decisions, but for most trans people they've been thinking about it since they were children.

Thanks for the information but concerning that I always wonder how many trans-people nowaday really feel like they are born in the wrong sex and for how many it is more of a "temporary" thing especially considering the existence of tumblr and similar websites.

I respect everyone who really can not identify as their own gender if they are really born into the wrong sex, but I also wonder how many are not that "serious" about it.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Thanks for the information but concerning that I always wonder how many trans-people nowaday really feel like they are born in the wrong sex and for how many it is more of a "temporary" thing especially considering the existence of tumblr and similar websites.

I respect everyone who really can not identify as their own gender if they are really born into the wrong sex, but I also wonder how many are not that "serious" about it.

What does Tumblr have to do with anything?

Also, they identify as their own gender, their gender is not determined by biology. Just correcting you on that.

 

[Beth Cyra]

Thanks for the information but concerning that I always wonder how many trans-people nowaday really feel like they are born in the wrong sex and for how many it is more of a "temporary" thing especially considering the existence of tumblr and similar websites.

I respect everyone who really can not identify as their own gender if they are really born into the wrong sex, but I also wonder how many are not that "serious" about it.

Serious isn't really the right word.

Some people back out because of money reasons or fear. It doesn't make them not serious.

And if a your therapist really feels your not serious or don't mean it they will not write those letters.

 

[breakfastchampion]

Trans is short for transition. People don't "black" themselves as much as MJ had to "whiten" himself.

No one will continue to use that term if they are called out on it, but it in no way compares to "blacked".

EDIT: Yes it is

Oh my the many terms wikipedia hit me up with.

Also, trans is usually short for transgender, it's not really used as a shorter term for transition. It's an adjective, not a verb. Nobody says "I'm going to trans because I hear it will help with dysphoria."

 

[A Link to the Past]

Serious isn't really the right word.

Some people back out because of mone reasons or fear. It doesn't make them not serious.

And if a your therapist really feels your not serious or don't mean it they will not write those letters.

Yup. It can also be a matter of confusion - a lot of trans people will be unsure because they don't really "feel" trans. It's a pretty normal thing to happen after coming to the initial realization.

 

[Izuna]

That was a lot of text. Yeah actually, transgendered is akin to saying blacked. However, since it is an umbrella term, there are instances where transgendered wouldn't be disrespectful but it depends on the individual, however since it IS an umbrella term that also means there is no purpose in using -ed since it could be wrong.

EDIT: This new avatar is not doing it for me.

 

[A Link to the Past]

That was a lot of text. Yeah actually, transgendered is akin to saying blacked. However, since it is an umbrella term, there are instances where transgendered wouldn't be disrespectful but it depends on the individual, however since it IS an umbrella term that also means there is no purpose in using -ed since it could be wrong.

Here's this though, people aren't transgendered, and it does carry the implication that it's a condition rather than a state of being.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

What does Tumblr have to do with anything?

Also, they identify as their own gender, their gender is not determined by biology. Just correcting you on that.

I am aware of that.

Serious isn't really the right word.

Some people back out because of mone reasons or fear. It doesn't make them not serious.

And if a your therapist really feels your not serious or don't mean it they will not write those letters.

i understand that, but I guess there are still people out there who really arent serious about that, arent there?

 

[Fudgepuppy]

That's only clothing, but good for you reacting like that. It can be much more than clothing though.

But I have my doubts most men would react the same way.

Well if a man comes into the locker-room, wearing "women's clothes", I'm not going to ask him "Do you identify yourself as a cross-dresser, trans or something in between?".

If a woman came into my locker-room, just minding her own business, I wouldn't really be offended or scared, but my thoughts would wander off. "Is their room being renovated? Did she go to the wrong room by mistake?", then I would shrug it off and go and do my work-out.

This isn't however because I find it "disturbing", but because I have zero experiences about trans-people IRL and have no idea how widespread it is in this really small town of mine.

What I'm trying to say, is that many people live their lives thinking "men, women, penis, vagina", and therefore the subject could be experienced as odd from the outside.

For an example, I thought gender and sex were the same thing until very recently. In Swedish, the terms are much more intertwined and more focused on the biological side of sexes and not on the cultural side of gender.

 

[Izuna]

Here's this though, people aren't transgendered, and it does carry the implication that it's a condition rather than a state of being.

As it is an umbrella term (this is a pointless discussion to be honest but whatever), I could be transgender if I wanted. This is semantics though and I don't want to suggest it gives me a false view.

 

[A Link to the Past]

As it is an umbrella term (this is a pointless discussion to be honest but whatever), I could be transgender if I wanted. This is semantics though and I don't want to suggest it gives me a false view.

Are you transgender?

 

[travisbickle]

People who don't believe men pretending to be women is a threat, did you know a pedophile once tried to disguise himself as a school to get access to children?

 

[Beth Cyra]

I am aware of that.



i understand that, but I guess there are still people out there who really arent serious about that, arent there?

Its certainly possible but no logical adult human would do this

Again our society doesn't react well to trans folk. Again I'll use me as an example, came out and disowned by my parents complete, and o have it EASY compared to most people. You can be hurt or killed over this and even taking hormones changes your body in various ways.

The hoops you have to jump through? the damage it can do to you? This life sucks and no one should ever wish this on a human let alone wish to be this way.

 

[Cybit]

I doubt many guys would be put off by a trans man hanging out in their locker room, why should this be any different?

Oh, right. Because all men are automatically perverts. To the point where they'd cross dress, or actually go through gender reassignment surgery, just to see some boobs. Totally logical and progressive thinking there.

People are crazy, leave the trans lady alone.

Pretty much. We had a trans man enter the locker room at work, and he was super nervous initially about undressing, and then realized no one gave a crap.

 

[A Link to the Past]

People who don't believe men pretending to be women is a threat, did you know a pedophile once tried to disguise himself as a school to get access to children?

yes actually

Spoiler

Way to bait-and-switch me there into a Brass Eye reference

 

[CrocMother]

Here's this though, people aren't transgendered, and it does carry the implication that it's a condition rather than a state of being.

I've always had problems with the semantics, "transgendered" kind of suggests that a person is moving from one check box to the other.

But for community reasons I see the importance of it.

 

[breakfastchampion]

Thanks for the information but concerning that I always wonder how many trans-people nowaday really feel like they are born in the wrong sex and for how many it is more of a "temporary" thing especially considering the existence of tumblr and similar websites.

I respect everyone who really can not identify as their own gender if they are really born into the wrong sex, but I also wonder how many are not that "serious" about it.

Thanks for being open about learning new information. I think very few people consider transitioning unless they've experienced gender dysphoria (an intensely distressful feeling that their body and/or gender role don't match with the gender they feel themselves to be). As a thought experiment, how would you feel if everyone referred to you as the gender opposite your sex? They would use the appropriate gendered pronouns and an appropriately gendered name. Would that make you feel validated and happy? Or would you remind people that you're actually your current sex? Further, what if you had the secondary sexual characteristics opposite your birth sex (i.e. breasts and hips instead of a body hair and a beard, or vice versa)? Would it be distressing or relieving? I think these are helpful experiments cisgender people can do to "try on" what it's like to be trans.

And yes, some people do end up regretting transition, but it is very few. Also, many of the people who 'regret transitioning' regret how hard it is to live as a visibly trans person (instead of being able to blend in with their identified gender). People who don't "pass" have a much harder life than those who do.

 

[Izuna]

Are you transgender?

Nope. I guess there's no longer shame in sharing but I've wanted to be a girl as a kid and it's where my interest in this subject comes from. I wouldn't want to become female for reasons that would be offensive to those who have put in the vast effort.

It is besides my pointless to make point however. Transgender is a umbrella term that CAN include drag, which isn't something which is caused at birth.

To be clear: I agree that -ed shouldn't be used.

Also holy crap my autocorrect keeps on trying to write trans-pussy (remnant of that old thread I guess).

 

[Anastasia]

Trans is short for transition. People don't "black" themselves as much as MJ had to "whiten" himself.

No one will continue to use that term if they are called out on it, but it in no way compares to "blacked".

EDIT: Yes it is

Oh my the many terms wikipedia hit me up with.

It's short for transgender, which is an umbrella term that encompasses various forms of gender expression.

The main point is that subtle differences in language can be used to marginalize and discriminate against people, whether or not the people using that language realize it. You would never say, "I'm friends with a blacked person," as if they got shot by a ray gun and suddenly their skin turned dark and we should pity them. Likewise, people who are trans don't have a condition that makes them that way. Instead of adding "ed" at the end you can say something like, "a transgender person" or "transgender people," etc.

Personally I'm not crazy about the terms transgender and transsexual and prefer to just use "trans," but that's another discussion to have and I'd rather not derail this thread any more.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

You want this man to be in the women's locker room?

Are you suggesting that the person shouldn't be allowed in the women's locker room because of their looks?

Has there ever been a case of a man trying to sneak in a women's locker room as a woman?

According to a quick Google search, yes:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=man+sneaks+into+women's+locker+room

It doesn't seem terribly common, though, no. Certainly not enough to raise concern about.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Nope. I guess there's no longer shame in sharing but I've wanted to be a girl as a kid and it's where my interest in this subject comes from. I wouldn't want to become female for reasons that would be offensive to those who have put in the vast effort.

I see. Thanks for being honest about it. I took your comment to be that you felt that being trans was a matter of choice. Glad that it wasn't.

 

[Izuna]

It's short for transgender, which is an umbrella term that encompasses various forms of gender expression.

The main point is that subtle differences in language can be used to marginalize and discriminate against people, whether or not the people using that language realize it. You would never say, "I'm friends with a blacked person," as if they got shot by a ray gun and suddenly their skin turned dark and we should pity them. Likewise, people who are trans don't have a condition that makes them that way. Instead of adding "ed" at the end you can say something like, "a transgender person" or "transgender people," etc.

Personally I'm not crazy about the terms transgender and transsexual and prefer to just use "trans," but that's another discussion to have and I'd rather not derail this thread any more.

That other discussion though, is interesting because black babies aren't born black =) the melalin production starts shortly after. But yeah, it is a term that is pointless to use even if you could be really anal and say technically.

Are there good write ups on when gender dystopia becomes obvious? I have seen/watched and read heartbreaking stories of when people were in sex-ed and saw what male puberty would do and felt sick that it was what would happen to them, that they should be the other way.

The interest part, is that those interviews mention "I did girl things" I am curious to know if there is a percentage of trans people who, in a less sexist society, wouldn't have felt that they were the wrong gender.

Feminine and masculine are slowly becoming offensive terms I think.

Sadly all I find these days are reports of harm and heartache.

But then the curiousity isn't really important.

 

[Two Words]

Something I guess I never thought about transgender is this. I believe that any attachment I have with my body's sexual identity is purely from life experience, not some innate expectation that makes me feel it is right. When people talk about transgender confusion, is there some innate feeling of anatomical misplacement? Is there a feeling of seeing your sexual organs and feeling like it's wrong? If so, this is a feeling I guess I have trouble relating to. I can understand the feeling homosexual people have, and it's pretty simple. What I feel towards women, homosexual feel towards men. It's pretty simple to put my emotions in their shoes. But for what transgender people feel wrong about, I don't really feel "right" about.

I'm not saying this to illegitimate anything. I feel there is a gap in my experience. I'm not sure if I'm properly explaining this confusion transgender people experience.

 

[breakfastchampion]

That other discussion though, is interesting because black babies aren't born black =) the melalin production starts shortly after. But yeah, it is a term that is pointless to use even if you could be really anal and say technically.

Are there good write ups on when gender dystopia becomes obvious? I have seen/watched and read heartbreaking stories of when people were in sex-ed and saw what male puberty would do and felt sick that it was what would happen to them, that they should be the other way.

The interest part, is that those interviews mention "I did girl things." I am curious to know if there is a percentage of trans people who, in a less sexist society, wouldn't have felt that they were the wrong gender.

Feminine and masculine are slowly becoming offensive terms I think.

It's "gender dysphoria" and it really could show up at any age. Many trans women report they've had feelings like that since childhood, but there are as many who just reported not being sure until it just 'clicked' one day, maybe late in their 20s or even late into their golden years. Everyone is raised with the assumption that their gender matches their sex, and that can make it hard to realize "holy crap I'm actually trans" when everyone you've ever known tells you what your gender is.

And good point, it's very difficult to assign "masculine" or "feminine" to every activity. (Like is barbecue masculine or feminine? It's cooking, feminine! No, it's cooking DEAD ANIMALS, masculine!)

 

[EmpressInYellow]

Are there good write ups on when gender dystopia becomes obvious? I have seen/watched and read heartbreaking stories of when people were in sex-ed and saw what male puberty would do and felt sick that it was what would happen to them, that they should be the other way.

"Gender Dystopia" is either the best band name ever or a fantastic premise for a science fiction movie.

More seriously, the actual age at which gender dysphoria presents itself varies from individual to individual. A lot of kids know by the time they're old enough to speak. For some people, it doesn't really get bad until the onset of puberty. For others, they probably knew something was off, but they don't really come to terms with what it is until significantly later (20s, 30s, and so on). Some people realize what it is and suffer in silence for years or decades, only to transition later in life.

So, tl;dr - there really is no solid answer to "when". It's highly variable.

 

[charlequin]

Thanks for the information but concerning that I always wonder how many trans-people nowaday really feel like they are born in the wrong sex and for how many it is more of a "temporary" thing especially considering the existence of tumblr and similar websites.

While in certain unusually accommodating environments (certain colleges, parts of tumblr, etc.) people might feel free to experiment with their gender expression in ways that don't stick, far and away most people who identify themselves as trans never reverse themselves. Estimates on how many people who begin a process of transition ultimately revert to their assigned-at-birth gender top off around 5% -- and that encompasses all the people who give in to social pressure as well as anyone who might actually feel they were mistaken. When considered in the context of how widespread discrimination and animosity against trans people are, the idea that there's some serious amount of "trendy trans" going on is pernicious at best.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

That's only clothing, but good for you reacting like that. It can be much more than clothing though.

But I have my doubts most men would react the same way.

You'd be right to have those doubts, afaik most male identified crossdressers (gay, straight, bi, asexual, etc.) don't go into men's dressing rooms en femme because it's quite dangerous for them to do so.
The same threats trans women face when being pushed into those types of situations are almost 1:1 with the some kind of threats male identified CDs face when they're not allowed to be in the place they feel is safest for them.

 

[breakfastchampion]

Something I guess I never thought about transgender is this. I believe that any attachment I have with my body's sexual identity is purely from life experience, not some innate expectation that makes me feel it is right. When people talk about transgender confusion, is there some innate feeling of anatomical misplacement? Is there a feeling of seeing your sexual organs and feeling like it's wrong? If so, this is a feeling I guess I have trouble relating to. I can understand the feeling homosexual people have, and it's pretty simple. What I feel towards women, homosexual feel towards men. It's pretty simple to put my emotions in their shoes. But for what transgender people feel wrong about, I don't really feel "right" about.

I'm not saying this to illegitimate anything. I feel there is a gap in my experience. I'm not sure if I'm properly explaining this confusion transgender people experience.

Yes, that's the gist of it. (Oh, and it's 'gender dysphoria' not 'gender confusion'.)

Okay, so you can understand that gay men love the physical aspects of men in a very similar way that you love the physical aspects of women. That's a great start. Now, imagine all the things you like about being a guy. Do you like being able to grow facial hair? Does it feel good when straight women express sexual interest in you as a man? Do you want to feel accepted/respected as a guy in your peer group of guy friends? (Not every man is going to answer 'yes' to every one of these, but do you understand what I'm getting at? Men like being men, even if they're not terribly manly they at least love having a penis. I'm a woman so I'd answer 'no' to all of these.) These exact same feelings can genuinely be experienced by someone who was born with a vulva and ovaries etc.

 

[Izuna]

It's "gender dysphoria" and it really could show up at any age. Many trans women report they've had feelings like that since childhood, but there are as many who just reported not being sure until it just 'clicked' one day, maybe late in their 20s or even late into their golden years. Everyone is raised with the assumption that their gender matches their sex, and that can make it hard to realize "holy crap I'm actually trans" when everyone you've ever known tells you what your gender is.

And good point, it's very difficult to assign "masculine" or "feminine" to every activity. (Like is barbecue masculine or feminine? It's cooking, feminine! No, it's cooking DEAD ANIMALS, masculine!)

Autocorrect.

But thanks, I wasn't aware of it kicking in at 20s.

 

[charlequin]

Something I guess I never thought about transgender is this. I believe that any attachment I have with my body's sexual identity is purely from life experience, not some innate expectation that makes me feel it is right. When people talk about transgender confusion, is there some innate feeling of anatomical misplacement? Is there a feeling of seeing your sexual organs and feeling like it's wrong? If so, this is a feeling I guess I have trouble relating to.

The term "dysphoria" refers to "a profound state of unease or dissatisfaction." As a general psychological phenomenon, it, like depression (persistent low mood) and anxiety (uncontrollable dread and concern about the future), is a prominent system of mood disorders. It's certainly difficult for someone who hasn't experienced it in any form to convey the experience since it's a strong, persistent negative emotion that is (primarily) not responsive to actual context.

("Gender dysphoria" is probably the place people are most likely to hear the word, but there are other conditions that are characterized by it as well: body dysmorphic disorder and body integrity identity disorder are two others where the feeling is physically-centered, for example.)

Anyway, it's a fairly broad psychological experience that is comparable (and contributes) to depression and mood disorders, but it isn't always immediately recognizable as stemming from a gender mismatch specifically, and the way different people actually experience it also differs -- for example, it's described as having a significant physical component by some, but not by everyone.

 

[Two Words]

Yes, that's the gist of it. (Oh, and it's 'gender dysphoria' not 'gender confusion'.)

Okay, so you can understand that gay men love the physical aspects of men in a very similar way that you love the physical aspects of women. That's a great start. Now, imagine all the things you like about being a guy. Do you like being able to grow facial hair? Does it feel good when straight women express sexual interest in you as a man? Do you want to feel accepted/respected as a guy in your peer group of guy friends? (Not every man is going to answer 'yes' to every one of these, but do you understand what I'm getting at? Men like being men, even if they're not terribly manly they at least love having a penis. I'm a woman so I'd answer 'no' to all of these.) These exact same feelings can genuinely be experienced by someone who was born with a vulva and ovaries etc.

Well I guess that's the part that doesn't click. I don't think I love having a penis. If I woke up without it, I'm sure I'd be unhappy for a long time, but I think that's because I've grown to expect having it. Maybe I can't truly know this is true, but I feel like I only like my body being the way it is because I've gotten accustom to it being this way for 26 years. This just might be one of those things that can't really be separated or analyzed individually, I guess.

 

[Two Words]

The term "dysphoria" refers to "a profound state of unease or dissatisfaction." As a general psychological phenomenon, it, like depression (persistent low mood) and anxiety (uncontrollable dread and concern about the future), is a prominent system of mood disorders. It's certainly difficult for someone who hasn't experienced it in any form to convey the experience since it's a strong, persistent negative emotion that is (primarily) not responsive to actual context.

("Gender dysphoria" is probably the place people are most likely to hear the word, but there are other conditions that are characterized by it as well: body dysmorphic disorder and body integrity identity disorder are two others where the feeling is physically-centered, for example.)

Anyway, it's a fairly broad psychological experience that is comparable (and contributes) to depression and mood disorders, but it isn't always immediately recognizable as stemming from a gender mismatch specifically, and the way different people actually experience it also differs -- for example, it's described as having a significant physical component by some, but not by everyone.

So I guess there isn't a complementary "gender euphoria" then? Is it one of those things that go unnoticed until things aren't working typically?

 

[Anastasia]

That other discussion though, is interesting because black babies aren't born black =) the melalin production starts shortly after. But yeah, it is a term that is pointless to use even if you could be really anal and say technically.

Are there good write ups on when gender dystopia becomes obvious? I have seen/watched and read heartbreaking stories of when people were in sex-ed and saw what male puberty would do and felt sick that it was what would happen to them, that they should be the other way.

The interest part, is that those interviews mention "I did girl things" I am curious to know if there is a percentage of trans people who, in a less sexist society, wouldn't have felt that they were the wrong gender.

Feminine and masculine are slowly becoming offensive terms I think.

Sadly all I find these days are reports of harm and heartache.

But then the curiousity isn't really important.

I can only offer my own experience, as a trans woman. I didn't really "know" I was trans, or start seriously questioning my gender identity until my early 20s. Throughout my life I've had moments when I thought about what it would be like to be a girl, or if maybe something isn't "right" about me, but I never thought about being trans or even knew what that meant. Even when I began to question my gender, it still took a long time (more than a year) before I came to terms with it. The first couple of months in particular were filled with doubt and going back and forth on who I really am.

Once I accepted being trans and started transitioning, however, was when I began to greatly feel the effects of gender dysphoria. The best way I can describe it is that it's a disconnect between your gender sex and your gender identity; the actual feeling can sometimes be akin to mental torture, or a discomfort that something isn't right. It varies for everyone. There's no set time when it becomes obvious. It can happen at a young age or after decades of being alive. Dysphoria is something I live with every day, and I feel like I manage it well enough. Maybe part of that comes from me being an optimist; I'd like to think everything will work out for me in the end. But sometimes I feel like I could easily fall apart. If I didn't have the support that I get from my mother, girlfriend, and friends (mostly in the trans community), I probably would not be posting here right now. Despite that, it has taken a toll on me and my personal health, as well as my academic performance and other parts of my life. Gender dysphoria is a terrible thing that I would never wish on anyone.

So as a long answer to your question, there is no set time. What I can say with absolute certainty, is that when you have it, you know. Social programming is very strong and can mask what your brain is trying to tell you for a long time. But eventually it will creep out, and (usually as a gradual process) you will realize it.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

Something I guess I never thought about transgender is this. I believe that any attachment I have with my body's sexual identity is purely from life experience, not some innate expectation that makes me feel it is right. When people talk about transgender confusion, is there some innate feeling of anatomical misplacement? Is there a feeling of seeing your sexual organs and feeling like it's wrong? If so, this is a feeling I guess I have trouble relating to. I can understand the feeling homosexual people have, and it's pretty simple. What I feel towards women, homosexual feel towards men. It's pretty simple to put my emotions in their shoes. But for what transgender people feel wrong about, I don't really feel "right" about.

I'm not saying this to illegitimate anything. I feel there is a gap in my experience. I'm not sure if I'm properly explaining this confusion transgender people experience.

In a very basic form, yes, but it is also important to recognise that gender itself is a spectrum and there are non-bindary individuals (see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer). Another user brought up a comparison before. Assuming you are a male, imagine everybody started calling you 'she' or responding to you as her. Imagine you were forced to use female or unisex bathrooms constantly, and comments regarding gender norms/stereotypes were applied to you as if you were female. Now, and this may be difficult, but imagine you had breasts, a vagina, and a body of a woman. In essence, your mind has been transplanted identically into a female body. Your, the cisgendered male that you are, mind has not changed in any form, and you are still absolutely certain that you are a male, you just have a vagina and breasts. You dress up as male, as you know you are, and people shun you, harass you, tell you you're disgusting and don't belong in the bathrooms/locker rooms you know you should use (in a society where gender neutral bathrooms are not a reality obviously, so male bathrooms for you). Every time you look at yourself, you know your body doesn't match who you are, every time says your name you know it should be a males, not a females. You try use certain facilities and people ask you about the state of your genitals, people comment that you don't look 'male enough' and an arbitrary line is drawn by some individuals suggesting that after this point (and huge amounts of money spent) you are 'male enough', and people are suspicious or make suggestions that you are faking or have some harmful ulterior motive. Suppose you know deep down that you are male and are in the wrong body but are unable to say anything as you may lose all of your friends, your family, be discriminated against, or be murdered, simply because of who you are, and are forced to hide and suppress this feeling that something quite seriously is 'up'.

For many, this scenario, although simplified (gender dysphoria can occur in a huge variety of ways, this is dissatisfaction and repulsion by one's own genitalia may be one form, and this also completely neglects non-binary individuals and intersex individuals), may serve as something which can be related to as a cisgendered individual.

I'm not sure if that serves as at least a starting point in understanding the experience of a non-cisgendered individual, because, it is important to emphasise, everybody's experience is different.

 

[Two Words]

In a very basic form, yes, but it is also important to recognise that gender itself is a spectrum and there are non-bindary individuals (see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer). Another user brought up a comparison before. Assuming you are a male, imagine everybody started calling you 'she' or responding to you as her. Imagine you were forced to use female or unisex bathrooms constantly, and comments regarding gender norms/stereotypes were applied to you as if you were female. Now, and this may be difficult, but imagine you had breasts, a vagina, and a body of a woman. In essence, your mind has been transplanted identically into a female body. Your, the cisgendered male that you are, mind has not changed in any form, and you are still absolutely certain that you are a male, you just have a vagina and breasts. You dress up as male, as you know you are, and people shun you, harass you, tell you you're disgusting and don't belong in the bathrooms/locker rooms you know you should use (in a society where gender neutral bathrooms are not a reality obviously, so male bathrooms for you). Every time you look at yourself, you know your body doesn't match who you are, every time says your name you know it should be a males, not a females. You try use certain facilities and people ask you about the state of your genitals, people comment that you don't look 'male enough' and an arbitrary line is drawn by some individuals suggesting that after this point (and huge amounts of money spent) you are 'male enough', and people are suspicious or make suggestions that you are faking or have some harmful ulterior motive. Suppose you know deep down that you are male and are in the wrong body but are unable to say anything as you may lose all of your friends, your family, be discriminated against, or be murdered, simply because of who you are, and are forced to hide and suppress this feeling that something quite seriously is 'up'.

For many, this scenario, although simplified (gender dysphoria can occur in a huge variety of ways, this is dissatisfaction and repulsion by one's own genitalia may be one form, and this also completely neglects non-binary individuals and intersex individuals), may serve as something which can be related to as a cisgendered individual.

I'm not sure if that serves as at least a starting point in understanding the experience of a non-cisgendered individual, because, it is important to emphasise, everybody's experience is different.

I see. It seems like I can't really try to relate by contrasting it to a feeling of "rightness" that I don't really feel to a wrongness that they feel.