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[The One Who Knocks]

The crime could simply be "I wanna see women naked", which is far easier to get away with if you can pretend to be a transwoman.

I don't see the point in answering a hypothetical question by simply dismissing the hypothesis. I've shown recognition that the hypothesis doesn't have to represent reality. I simply want to know what people would choose to do if that hypothesis became a reality.

If it doesn't represent the reality why entertain the baseless hypothesis? Again, as I've commented in that post, there are already rules against misconduct which will almost always relate to sexual harassment (and perverted attitudes correspond to that). There are many outlets for a male to see naked women, the internet, nudist beaches, strip shows, nudist gatherings, an intimate partner, unisex changing facilities which already exist, amongst many more. Why go to this effort? Even more so, why even "pretend to be a non-cisgendered woman" and simply walk into the changing room, say "oh, sorry, wrong room," and leave? If they're simply using the changing room as anybody else is, is not behaving in a perverse manner, and is simply using the facilities and leaving, what issue is it to anybody which doesn't reside in cultural perceptions surrounding gender and puritan views of the human body? All this 'hypothesis' which reflects no aspect of reality does is purpose the lack of harm in unisex bathrooms, but ultimately this has no more relevance than asking what if people turned into zebras at random intervals for a random time period while in a changing room. It's completely irrelevant outside of this hypothetical scenario and is not worth consideration. It has as little (if even that) basis as any 'slippery slope' scenario.

 

[Sai-kun]

Okay since I am no longer concerned about the dangers of expressing my views and am willing to have a bit of debate, here goes:

I think that men that identify as women should not be allowed in the women's locker room, but instead, go to a different unisex room instead. Society, at least down here in the South where I'm from (mississippi), is not willing to have that happen just yet. I am one of those people who think that. And in order for my view to be fair, I think that women who identify as men should go in their own separate locker room as well. I am a conservative christian and these are just my views.

i'm not gonna just say this is a stupid view to hold because i'm like mildly interested in why you feel the way you do? you realize that trans* people are...people, right?

Don't worry, you gross me out just as much as transgendered people gross you out. So we kind of have something in common. It is just the way we are.

xo

 

[CrocMother]

That is a pretty bold decision. Do you recognize the issues that could arise from that in the long term in this hypothetical situation?

No, I don't. This discussion isn't rooted in reality as you've already mentioned so you'll have to let me know the hypothetical impact of this hypothetical situation.

 

[Beth Cyra]

The crime could simply be "I wanna see women naked", which is far easier to get away with if you can pretend to be a transwoman.

I don't see the point in answering a hypothetical question by simply dismissing the hypothesis. I've shown recognition that the hypothesis doesn't have to represent reality. I simply want to know what people would choose to do if that hypothesis became a reality.

I've responded to this four times rationally in the last three hours, you are choosing to ignore those posts and carry on with frankly a deranged hypothetical.

 

[bms2993]

i'm not gonna just say this is a stupid view to hold because i'm like mildly interested in why you feel the way you do? you realize that trans* people are...people, right?

Why of course I do. I'm friends with a transgendered person and I love her dearly. I just wouldn't want to have a transgendered room with her..

 

[A Link to the Past]

I think an important question is if people feel that welfare is a bad thing.

Why of course I do. I'm friends with a transgendered person and I love her dearly. I just wouldn't want to have a transgendered room with her..

Can you elaborate on why you would not want to share a room?

 

[Earthstrike]

Why does "that" man in the picture matter at all? What if the picture was of a cis male than identified as female?

Wait a minute, this point isn't actually understood?

The fear that perverted men will dress up as women to sneak into the women's room is exposed as completely absurd when one realises that any law assigning bathrooms based on genitalia and not gender expression would in fact make it even easier for me to enter the women's room, since they just have to claim they are FTM.

Just take a couple seconds to think about it.

 

[royalan]

No, that's incorrect. This is a discussion forum anchored by video games. Presumably, most posters aren't properly informed about trans subject matters. This community consists of thousands of registrants. Compared to that, the trans community here makes up... what?

So, with people being kind and expressing sincere interest to learn more about trans rights in the context of a community anchored by video games, kind of makes your statements about people knowing their shit seem outlandish and over the top. Perhaps that's why you're frustrated and perhaps you're focusing your energy and efforts in the wrong place?

The only issue I see here, and where I completely agree with Snitch, is that there are several posters in this thread that simply aren't trying to learn or "discuss" anything. They come into the discussion admittedly not knowing anything (about trans people, trans identity, or laws designed to protect trans people), and are unresponsive to the presentation of facts, statistics and research presented by other posters in the thread. They continue to hammer their "arguments" that, unless I've missed something, have gone completely unsubstantiated by any sort of research, and go quiet when this very lack of research is pointed out.

 

[Two Words]

I don't think worrying about hypothetical situations that aren't founded in reality is conducive to the topic at-hand (the idea of trans-men/women having the right to enter their gender-oriented locker-room/bathroom). I'm not trying to be rudely dismissive, but I personally feel it will just muddy up the progress that has been made.

I can see your point there. Though I think in those circumstances it's idually better to respond to the hypothetical situation as it is, or ignore it. Trying to logically dismantle a hypothesis is when things get really messy and people will argue about the whole point of a hypothesis and whatnot.

I did get some completely different answers, at least.

 

[Daingurse]

Why does this asinine peeping tom hypothetical keep coming up? How rare would such perverted individuals even be? It feels silly to even entertain it as a legitimate reason to segregate trans people.

 

[Yaboosh]

Can you elaborate on why you would not want to share a room?

A room that identifies as the gender it was born as would be fine. He just doesn't want to share a transgendered room with her.

 

[bms2993]

I think an important question is if people feel that welfare is a bad thing.



Can you elaborate on why you would not want to share a room?

I don't know, I just find it to be a bit off putting to me.

 

[Two Words]

I've responded to this four times rationally in the last three hours, you are choosing to ignore those posts and carry on with frankly a deranged hypothetical.

Those posts you responded to couldn't have been mine because I just got home from work.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I don't know, I just find it to be a bit off putting to me.

And I want you to know that it's irrational. It's the equivalent of crossing the street to avoid black people, or thinking that gay people are more likely to be pedophiles. A lot of people may think these things, but that only makes it more urgent that we shame that kind of mindset.

 

[Beth Cyra]

I don't know, I just find it to be a bit off putting to me.

Well, all I ask of you BMS, is to really consider your word choice. Love a term for acceptance, that you cherish and value a person.

You claim to love them, but frankly if it where me I wouldn't feel loved at all if you where off put and wouldn't share even a room with me.

 

[lostinblue]

I don't know, I just find it to be a bit off putting to me.

Because it's her or because she's transexual?

If both, which more off putting?


Regardless, If she identifies as a she, and you as a he (you're not a she, are you?) it might as well be due to that. If you respect a transgendered person you recognise them as the other sex. But you're probably not sexually attracted, so it's weird.

Source: I've been naked with a girl I found unattractive before... Didn't love it, above all I just didn't want to be dismissive towards her, self esteem et all.

Source2: Also, that nurse, who gave me a butt injection that one time, who grabbed my ass and whispered, "well, if that isn't a nice butt". (albeit true, this is a joke)

 

[Dai101]

Why of course I do. I'm friends with a transgendered person and I love her dearly.

I'm having a short circuit here.

 

[CrocMother]

I hope society can wrap their head around the idea that genitals don't cause you to be a specific gender just like they don't cause you to be a certain sexuality soon.

That would be nice.

 

[bms2993]

And I want you to know that it's irrational. It's the equivalent of crossing the street to avoid black people, or thinking that gay people are more likely to be pedophiles.

Right. It is irrational. Won't change how I feel, but yeah. I can see where you're coming from. Doesn't change the fact I'm still friends with a transgendered person and we game fairly regularly on campus.

 

[bms2993]

Because it's her or because she's transexual?

If both, which more off putting?

It's just the transgender part. I try to look past that and just have a great time when I see her and hang out.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Right. It is irrational. Won't change how I feel, but yeah. I can see where you're coming from. Doesn't change the fact I'm still friends with a transgendered person and we game fairly regularly on campus.

Think of it this way. Any person whom I trusted, trans or cis, I would be comfortable being in the same bathroom as them. So in the end, it comes down to a matter of trust, and even if there's a reason - irrational as you admit - when it comes down to it, you can't truly love someone who you do not trust.

 

[t-storm]

Well, all I ask of you BMS, is to really consider your word choice. Love a term for acceptance, that you cherish and value a person.

You claim to love them, but frankly if it where me I wouldn't feel loved at all if you where off put and wouldn't share even a room with me.

Well said!

 

[Shaanyboi]

Right. It is irrational. Won't change how I feel, but yeah. I can see where you're coming from. Doesn't change the fact I'm still friends with a transgendered person and we game fairly regularly on campus.

...I don't know that I'd pull that card

 

[Omega Ultimus]

I can see your point there. Though I think in those circumstances it's idually better to respond to the hypothetical situation as it is, or ignore it. Trying to logically dismantle a hypothesis is when things get really messy and people will argue about the whole point of a hypothesis and whatnot.

I did get some completely different answers, at least.

Whether your intention is to sabotage the discussion at hand or honestly promote a hypothetical that piques your interest, it will inevitably bait out posters to either support it or denounce it as if it were applicable to the discussion at hand. When something controversial is posted, it will yield a lot of rebuttals, and, from my experience, they will likely take a polemical form against the purpose or logical basis of the hypothesis (usually at an attempt to curb the discussion before it gets out of hand).

I mean, you noted how you received several different answers. That's multiple people digressing from the main topic at-hand, which then can lead to arguments that are, at best, tangential but not helpful.

Hopefully this doesn't sound too backseat mod-like. My apologies if it does.

 

[bms2993]

...I don't know that I'd pull that card

Think of it as you want. I do still treat her as a friend. It's okay to not like a thing but still hang out. Everyone's different.

 

[Two Words]

Yeah, there's no doubt there is a lot of irrationality going on here, but that can be pretty tough to fight when it's so engrained in you. Like, I could have the world's hottest woman in the world tell me that she would let me do whatever I want with her for the rest of my life, and I'm obviously going to be happy about that. But if she said that she was born with a male body, I'd with 100% certainty back out.

I can admit that if I look at my decision clinically, I'm making an irrational decision that is swayed by things that shouldnt really matter. But it's like my brain doesn't even know how to function with those kinds of predicates.

 

[Yaboosh]

Yeah, there's no doubt there is a lot of irrationality going on here, but that can be pretty tough to fight when it's so engrained in you. Like, I could have the world's hottest woman in the world tell me that she would let me do whatever I want with her for the rest of my life, and I'm obviously going to be happy about that. But if she said that she was born with a male body, I'd with 100% certainty back out.

I can admit that if I look at my decision clinically, I'm making an irrational decision that is swayed by things that shouldnt really matter. But it's like my brain doesn't even know how to function with those kinds of predicates.

Being self aware of your irrationality and still refusing to attempt to change is worse than someone who is just ignorant about something. It is more hateful.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Think of it as you want. I do still treat her as a friend. It's okay to not like a thing but still hang out. Everyone's different.

This isn't something trivial like a haircut. This is their conflict with their own sexual identity. To "not like" a fairly important facet of their day-to-day life is pretty insulting.

 

[Two Words]

Being self aware of your irrationality and still refusing to attempt to change is worse than someone who is just ignorant about something. It is more hateful.

Being aware of your irrationality is not uncommon or strange. Most people with irrational fears recognize their irrationality, but it doesn't stop them from having that innate reaction. I am deathly afraid of heights even when I know I am completely safe. I can't even do those simulated rides that make you feel like you are high up. I don't think you're being fair to what I said if you're going to describe it as hateful.

 

[Sai-kun]

Think of it as you want. I do still treat her as a friend. It's okay to not like a thing but still hang out. Everyone's different.

it's pretty gross and kinda dehumanizing but yeah sure everyone's different

 

[A Link to the Past]

Being aware of your irrationality is not uncommon or strange. Most people with irrational fears recognize their irrationality, but it doesn't stop them from having that innate reaction. I am deathly afraid of heights even when I know I am completely safe. I can't even do those simulated rides that make you feel like you are high up. I don't think you're being fair to what I said if you're going to describe it as hateful.

But the person didn't just say that they had problems with it, they said that they don't want trans women using women's bathrooms/changing rooms.

 

[Yaboosh]

Being aware of your irrationality is not uncommon or strange. Most people with irrational fears recognize their irrationality, but it doesn't stop them from having that innate reaction. I am deathly afraid of heights even when I know I am completely safe. I can't even do those simulated rides that make you feel like you are high up. I don't think you're being fair to what I said if you're going to describe it as hateful.

You hate heights. You recognize that your fear of heights is irrational, but if you say you won't even try to reduce your hatred for heights even in the face of irrationality, that means you are a height bigot. Heights should and will be offended by your stance.

Lucky for you, heights are not conscious humans, and so heights being offended doesn't really matter.

This other dude feels uncomfortable/fears transgendered people. He recognizes his fear is irrational, but he won't even try to change that fear. Unfortunately for him, transgendered people are conscious humans.


Edit: And I don't even believe you with what you said about backing out because she told you she was born male. I think your hesitance is likely based in a fear that you could tell she was born male. In your own hypothetical, you said she was the hottest woman on the planet. I bet when you see that she is the hottest woman on the planet, your irrationality would be reduced and you would see how silly it would be to turn her down.

But that is just a guess. And there is no way of knowing either way.

 

[Two Words]

But the person didn't just say that they had problems with it, they said that they don't want trans women using women's bathrooms/changing rooms.

I'm talking about a particular circumstance. You can see it by trailing the quotes.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

Being aware of your irrationality is not uncommon or strange. Most people with irrational fears recognize their irrationality, but it doesn't stop them from having that innate reaction. I am deathly afraid of heights even when I know I am completely safe. I can't even do those simulated rides that make you feel like you are high up. I don't think you're being fair to what I said if you're going to describe it as hateful.

I had an irrational fear of buses after a terrible anxiety attack, and I got it cured thanks to exposure therapy. Having an irrational fear is not an excuse because you can try and succeed to overcome it.

 

[Two Words]

You hate heights. You recognize that your fear of heights is irrational, but if you say you won't even try to reduce your hatred for heights even in the face of irrationality, that means you are a height bigot. Heights should and will be offended by your stance.

Lucky for you, heights are not conscious humans, and so heights being offended doesn't really matter.

This other dude feels uncomfortable/fears transgendered people. He recognizes his fear is irrational, but he won't even try to change that fear. Unfortunately for him, transgendered people are conscious humans.

Well I have no problem with transgender people at all. I'd say the only time that them being transgender instead of cisgender matters to me is when it is about sex. I'll admit that it's not a rational feeling, but I cannot accept a transwoman as a woman when it comes to being sexual partners. I guess that's where my line is drawn and I have to just say "it doesn't feel right". Maybe that feeling will change one day, but I don't think that feeling is a hateful feeling. I mean, if you think about it, I had a standard American heterosexual upbringing. Do you think that culture is conducive in producing men who can accept a transgender person as a sexual partner easily?

 

[meltingparappa]

Right. It is irrational. Won't change how I feel, but yeah. I can see where you're coming from. Doesn't change the fact I'm still friends with a transgendered person and we game fairly regularly on campus.

I think deep down, you do have the capacity to become more receptive and compassionate to someone who goes through life struggling with issues wouldn't be able to even comprehend, but that statement is one step away from saying "But I have a black friend who doesn't mind when I use the n-word while we joke around, I don't get what the big deal is."

 

[BamfMeat]

Can we fucking stop with the "Well this is just my opinion" when saying a transwoman is still a man and vice versa? At this point, your opinion is, flat out, wrong. Period.

Transgender people are an actual recognized "class" of people by the medical community. Therefore all of your posturing, sputtering and whining that "Well they still have X part" is *completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand.* These people, and the medical community at large, recognize them as the gender they identify with.

Your ignorance (whether it be because you don't understand and want to educate yourself or whether you want to be willfully ignorant and put your fingers in your ear and scream "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!) is not a reason to deny anyone anything.

Along those same lines, stop with the "Well what if?" Well what if the world gets invaded by aliens tomorrow. So. Fucking. What. We'll deal with that situation when the time comes.

I'm so sick of "Well it's just my opinion that they're still a woman/man/whathaveyou". Well good for you for having an opinion, but at this point, it is literally an established fact that your opinion is, flat out, wrong. If you want to continue holding that "opinion", more power to you, but we're not going to make laws based on your wrong opinion, we're going to make laws based on what the medical (and scientific) community understands.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I don't think turning this into a discussion about sexual partners will lead anywhere but a lock and many bans. Didn't exactly end well last time.

 

[Beth Cyra]

I don't think turning this into a discussion about sexual partners will lead anywhere but a lock and many bans. Didn't exactly end well last time.

Im with Cosmic 100% on this.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Transgender people are an actual recognized "class" of people by the medical community. Therefore all of your posturing, sputtering and whining that "Well they still have X part" is *completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand.* These people, and the medical community at large, recognize them as the gender they identify with.

I do not know that much about that, but doesnt doctors have to "analyze" first whether you are a man or a woman "inside"?

I know in Germany before you have an operation you need a document by a doctor that acknowledges that you were born into the wrong body.

 

[Two Words]

I don't think turning this into a discussion about sexual partners will lead anywhere but a lock and many bans. Didn't exactly end well last time.

I'm just stating the one place I have trouble treating transwomen like women. It's not making the thread about sexual partners.

 

[lostinblue]

Think of it as you want. I do still treat her as a friend. It's okay to not like a thing but still hang out. Everyone's different.

Of course.

Everything is social conditioning to an extent, society changed too fast in the last few years... We weren't born into this reality, our families usually weren't like that and there's lot's of prologue to everything that we're painfully aware of it. Or should.

We try to be open (always a good way to start off), but we don't know how to behave around some things, other side is often oversensitive or overcompensating too. Our kids will be so much better at this and we ever will.


I mean everyone has that family member that just doesn't adapt easily to accepting a lot of things and that only happens when these things were unthinkable before. Go back into the 80's and these people weren't considered normal, nor could they lead normal lives. Having a normal job and the like... If that cat was out of the bag.


In a sense, the whole flamboyant unraveling that is happening (a facet of it which I don't really enjoy) is a consequence of aggression and attack. They got aggressed for so long that it's and attack for acceptance.


I don't think shock value is the way to do things though specially when it's often style over substance, I enjoy a lot more having a gay person, trans, or whatever, that I can talk to and relate on topics or exchange opinions. It's not a flat manifesto that does the trick, it's people getting acceptance by being like us, minus the parts that separate us.

Not by sculpting themselves to be too different (and different than they would be otherwise), not by secluding themselves, not by going out of their way to slap the butt of a clearly heterosexual guy that walked into a gay parade in a attempt to make him feel uncomfortable.


I'm sure I'm very awkward in a lot of things around this theme, but the main important thing is that I don't mean anything other than good. Like, by being nice (or nicer) sometimes that means you're acknowledging them for being different than you as if you didn't... you wouldn't?

Like, a colleague in university I had, he was gay and straight out of high school and he wouldn't say good morning to us, "straight guys" unless we did it first. Except no one did, so I started going out of my way to do it. And his reaction was clear surprise the first few times, he didn't expect it, dudes weren't cordial to him where he came from.

I'm pretty sure he was bullied in high school.

Context, myself, the whole "good morning" compliment is something I seldom use on a day-to-day basis. Doesn't mean much to me but I felt it mattered in that case.

So yeah, I'm sure he felt it was awkward as well, but I make an effort.




Dammit, wrote a lot again.

TL;DR: Yup, everyone's different and I'm sure you're alright.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Why does this asinine peeping tom hypothetical keep coming up? How rare would such perverted individuals even be? It feels silly to even entertain it as a legitimate reason to segregate trans people.

Well, there have been incidents of men pretending to be transwomen in order to access female-exclusive areas:

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/15/a-sex-predators-sick-deception

 

[BamfMeat]

I do not know that much about that, but doesnt doctors have to "analyze" first whether you are a man or a woman "inside"?

I know in Germany before you have an operation you need a document by a doctor that acknowledges that you were born into the wrong body.

Yeah - that's why I was saying that they are actually recognized by the medical community. People talk about this as if there are only two genders and the only one you can ever identify with is the one you were born with, regardless of what changes you make to yourself.

There was also a study that came out recently that showed that transgender people know well before they even start puberty that they're transgender, which I find fascinating, and frankly, awesome. The more studies we have showing that transgender is a "thing", the closer we can get through this whole mess of "you were born X, so you'll be X forever" when it's being very clearly illustrated that that's not the case.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

I doubt many guys would be put off by a trans man hanging out in their locker room, why should this be any different?

Oh, right. Because all men are automatically perverts. To the point where they'd cross dress, or actually go through gender reassignment surgery, just to see some boobs. Totally logical and progressive thinking there.

People are crazy, leave the trans lady alone.

 

[Oppo]

Why don't you facilitate that instead of being a dismissive ass and perpetuating ignorance? You're part of the problem.

because s/he is not here to discuss or educate. they're here to fight and score points.

I agree with Snitch on the broad strokes of this topic, but again, the delivery is almost comically hostile and they don't seem really want to help out.

hate is taught, Snitch. people aren't born that way. it is possible to turn folks around. you're just driving away anyone who isn't steeped in the latest thinking.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Well, there have been incidents of men pretending to be transwomen in order to access female-exclusive areas:

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/15/a-sex-predators-sick-deception

*incident

I doubt many guys would be put off by a trans man hanging out in their locker room, why should this be any different?

Oh, right. Because all men are automatically perverts. To the point where they'd cross dress, or actually go through gender reassignment surgery, just to see some boobs. Totally logical and progressive thinking there.

People are crazy, leave the trans lady alone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Teena

 

[Omega Ultimus]

Well, there have been incidents of men pretending to be transwomen in order to access female-exclusive areas:

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/15/a-sex-predators-sick-deception

Wilkie diagnosed him with an anti-social personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, determined he was dependent on alcohol and drugs and had multiple sexual deviancies. He was rated as a high risk to re-offend sexually.

Yeah, this type of people are extremely rare and will commit sexual crimes regardless of the laws. It's also the only case I've seen, regarding multiple states, cities, and organizations (that monitor these activities) claiming no increases or issues of sexual violence have occurred since their laws have passed.

 

[Izuna]

I don't think turning this into a discussion about sexual partners will lead anywhere but a lock and many bans. Didn't exactly end well last time.

Definitely.

I would like it if all trans threads don't get locked out of OT and stay in Community. The best thing is that those who come into these threads are learning and getting some perspective.

But that doesn't mean people's opinions need to change. Tackling concerns and false fact one by one is good, but where people stand should be up to them.

The thing that bothers me is the whole risk thing. If anyone abuses anyone, whether they agree with them or not, are committing a crime. To say men are a danger to women if they shared toilets, implying that men would commit crime if opportunity was there, is a sickening generalising, and is in fact just as sick as any other parallel such as homosexuals or trans people being a risk.

Men aren't even really a majority either, so it doesn't make sense to rule them out as being the only ones who pose a risk. That sort of thinking is just as ignorant as thinking trans females are a risk.

 

[BamfMeat]

Well, there have been incidents of men pretending to be transwomen in order to access female-exclusive areas:

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/15/a-sex-predators-sick-deception

Technically, this is *1* incident. And while I can't dispute that the guy said he was transgender, I think flags should have been raised when he'd also molested a neighbors 5 year old daughter a few years before.

But yes, there has been an incident of a guy pretending to be transgender to assault a woman.