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[Campster]

Every justification for piracy in this thread is bullshit, especially considering that this is a game made by two people and every copy not sold does hurt their bottom line.

 

[TheExodu5]

World of Goo lost sales rate: 5%

Actually, according to 2Dboy, the lost sales are more around 0.082%.

World without piracy :
_World of goo is out, 2 people buy it.
_4 people don't buy it but know or tried it and like it
_x people don't know a shit about it

World with piracy
_World of goo is out, 2(same 2 !) buy it.
_20 people pirates the game
_40 people won't buy the game but know or tried it and like it.

It's better i think !

But i personally bought the game for pc, and it's great !

For small developers, I think piracy doesn't hurt. Of course it's completely wrong, and you're right to condemn those that pirate, but the word of mouth generated often helps sales. We certainly know it's true in the music industry, so I don't know why it wouldn't apply here. Again, it's not something that's right or should be encouraged, but you can learn to co-exist with it. 2DBoy has done the right thing and went the DRM-free route, which I think is paramount to doing well. If you put heavy DRM, those that pirate it (there will be just as many) will not even consider buying the full version since it's more limited than the pirated version. When the game is DRM-free, you'll have a few converts who decide to buy the game after pirating it (though of course, that number is never large at all).

I'm tired of people debating the rights and wrong of piracy. We already know what the situation is, and no nothing you say or do is going to change it. The correct way it to learn to co-exist with it. Stardock sets a fantastic example, and 2DBoy has followed in similar footsteps. In the music industry, bands like Radiohead, NIN, and Barenaked Ladies have also shows they understand how to live with piracy.

But, but, but. It is my RIGHT to be able to have as many luxury items as I want EVEN if I can't afford or have no intention of paying for them!

I mean, I wouldn't have paid for this 50" television anyway so it's okay if I stole it right?

Seriously dude, stop comparing a digital copy to physical property. One of these deprives the owner of a possible sale (which 2DBoy has admitted they believe is about 1 in 1000), and the other deprives of physical property in amount of that which was stolen. It may be virtual theft, but in no way is it even close to comparable. It's no more right, but it's not the same thing whatsoever. Hell, the people who buy shit and return it to the store with the purpose of executing a free 1 month loan are causing far greater damage, and that's legal!

 

[Kritz]

But, but, but. It is my RIGHT to be able to have as many luxury items as I want EVEN if I can't afford or have no intention of paying for them!

I mean, I wouldn't have paid for this 50" television anyway so it's okay if I stole it right?

 

[Fuu]

Regardless of rights and wrongs, I feel it's refreshing to see a developer acting level headed about this subject.

not a joke post, much more people in the world have internet than those who have any way to pay electronically. well, for example, in Russia there is no PayPal, credit cards are not that common, and even then most of them wouldn't be accepted for payment in western systems - I don't know why. So no retail version means no way to buy this game, and of course I can't tell for sure, but my guess is it's like that in many other countries. Would be interesting to see breakdown of those IPs by country

Indeed. I'd be interested in seeing this too.

 

[orioto]

For small developers, I think piracy doesn't hurt. Of course it's completely wrong, and you're right to condemn those that pirate, but the word of mouth generated often helps sales. We certainly know it's true in the music industry, so I don't know why it wouldn't apply here. Again, it's not something that's right or should be encouraged, but you can learn to co-exist with it. 2DBoy has done the right thing and went the DRM-free route, which I think is paramount to doing well. If you put heavy DRM, those that pirate it (there will be just as many) will not even consider buying the full version since it's more limited than the pirated version. When the game is DRM-free, you'll have a few converts who decide to buy the game after pirating it (though of course, that number is never large at all).

I'm tired of people debating the rights and wrong of piracy. We already know what the situation is, and no nothing you say or do is going to change it. The correct way it to learn to co-exist with it. Stardock sets a fantastic example, and 2DBoy has followed in similar footsteps. In the music industry, bands like Radiohead, NIN, and Barenaked Ladies have also shows they understand how to live with piracy.

You realize we agree, right^^ ?

 

[Log4Girlz]

If you posted in this thread and haven't tried the game, there is a free demo. PLAY THE GAME, ITS FREE TO TRY. Fucking amazing game.

 

[CoG]

If you posted in this thread and haven't tried the game, there is a free demo. PLAY THE GAME, ITS FREE TO TRY. Fucking amazing game.

Can you change the resolution (PC version)?

 

[orioto]

Can you change the resolution (PC version)?

No but it's antialiased and really smooth !

 

[TheExodu5]

Can you change the resolution (PC version)?

You can if you go into the .ini file

Anything up to abot 1280*800 works...but for some reason the "continue" button goes farther and farther off screen if you up the resolution too high. At 1280*800, on my 1680*1050 monitor, the game looks great.

You realize we agree, right^^ ?

Yep, was just adding to the conversation.

 

[SturokBGD]

There's no discussion here.

If you pirated World of Goo, you are 100% completely and utterly, without any slight possibility of an argument, a complete and utter fucking tool.

Argue with me, pirates. Prove me wrong. You're still tools. Nothing you say will change that.

 

[TheExodu5]

There's no discussion here.

If you pirated World of Goo, you are 100% completely and utterly, without any slight possibility of an argument, a complete and utter fucking tool.

Argue with me, pirates. Prove me wrong. You're still tools. Nothing you say will change that.

Noone that isn't banned is even arguing that. Fucking drop it...the same tired discussion gets brought up everytime.

 

[v1cious]

sounds like an excuse to me. i'd never even heard of the game until now, and i'm sure no one else has either. it wasn't promoted at all, so naturally the piracy community are the only ones that had any actual knowledge of it.

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

It might be easier to rationalize stealing from some nameless faceless corporate mechanism, but this is two people who poured their hearts into a game.

sounds like an excuse to me. i'd never even heard of the game until now, and i'm sure no one else has either. it wasn't promoted at all, so naturally the piracy community are the only ones that had any actual knowledge of it.

What is it they have to excuse? And what do you think the appropriate marketing budget should be on a game designed by two freelancers?

 

[TheExodu5]

sounds like an excuse to me. i'd never even heard of the game until now, and i'm sure no one else has either. it wasn't promoted at all, so naturally the piracy community are the only ones that had any actual knowledge of it.

Not reading the linked article and responding should be bannable, imo.

 

[charlequin]

I've heard this argument before.

"I would normally buy that artists album, so if I pirate it, it's not like their losing a sale"

Really? Are you serious?

"Wouldn't buy it anyway" is a poor ethical argument for the fairness of committing piracy yourself (there's no real way to justify it as a blanket argument without also suggesting that you should skip pirating the games in question too) but it's an absolutely neccessary fact to understand when discussing piracy in the aggregate. Most people who pirate any game would never have bought it, not for any subtle and nuanced reason of personal psychology but simply because people who have made the decision that piracy is okay regularly pirate more games than they have time or inclination to play.

What the developers here understand, as does anyone who's actually studied piracy rather than just stopped at the basic "piracy = bad" level, is that (a) anti-piracy measures have rapidly diminishing returns, and (b) out of 20,000 illegitimate downloads you're looking at (just to start) something like 15,000 who never even touched the game for more than ten minutes.

 

[wolfmat]

It's hard in general to sell such games. There's nothing surprising about this, neither is it upsetting. The game is based on a gimmicky idea, that's what people see, and they don't want to pay 15 bucks for it.

Nobody would pirate this title if it had half-decent DRM. Not that I'd say that would have been better, they just have a game there that's hard to sell to anyone, and if you're not preventing stealing there, that's what happens.

It's like with other physics-puzzle games. People don't expect to get their money's worth out of them. They either steal them or don't bother.

It's sad in a way, but hardly news if you think about it. There are myriads of software products that had a similar history. It's how it works if you've got no AAA game. People copy that floppy.

Whining and bitching "Aww aww fuck the pirates" is so 2001. Get over it, people suck, the end.

 

[TheExodu5]

Nobody would pirate this title if it had half-decent DRM. Not that I'd say that would have been better, they just have a game there that's hard to sell to anyone, and if you're not preventing stealing there, that's what happens.

Do you work for EA?

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

It's hard in general to sell such games. There's nothing surprising about this, neither is it upsetting. The game is based on a gimmicky idea, that's what people see, and they don't want to pay 15 bucks for it.

Nobody would pirate this title if it had half-decent DRM. Not that I'd say that would have been better, they just have a game there that's hard to sell to anyone, and if you're not preventing stealing there, that's what happens.

It's like with other physics-puzzle games. People don't expect to get their money's worth out of them. They either steal them or don't bother.

It's sad in a way, but hardly news if you think about it. There are myriads of software products that had a similar history. It's how it works if you've got no AAA game. People copy that floppy.

Whining and bitching "Aww aww fuck the pirates" is so 2001. Get over it, people suck, the end.

Severely underestimating the quality of the game, its easily an equal to Braid.

 

[Campster]

It's hard in general to sell such games. There's nothing surprising about this, neither is it upsetting. The game is based on a gimmicky idea, that's what people see, and they don't want to pay 15 bucks for it.

Nobody would pirate this title if it had half-decent DRM. Not that I'd say that would have been better, they just have a game there that's hard to sell to anyone, and if you're not preventing stealing there, that's what happens.

It's like with other physics-puzzle games. People don't expect to get their money's worth out of them. They either steal them or don't bother.

It's sad in a way, but hardly news if you think about it. There are myriads of software products that had a similar history. It's how it works if you've got no AAA game. People copy that floppy.

Whining and bitching "Aww aww fuck the pirates" is so 2001. Get over it, people suck, the end.

You're insulting the game and defending people who break the law. Your argument amounts to "Stop whining about it, because it's going to happen." I find your entire post worthy of contempt, but I'll simply say that I think you'd be singing a very different tune if your paycheck was being devastated by BitTorrent.

 

[wolfmat]

Severely underestimating the quality of the game, its easily an equal to Braid.

I didn't say anything about the game's quality or awesomeness. I'm saying it's hard to sell it.

Braid is also hard to sell. XBL did the trick, I guess.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I bought this on Steam. Good stuff. They should definitely get it on XBLA.

 

[wolfmat]

You're insulting the game and defending people who break the law. Your argument amounts to "Stop whining about it, because it's going to happen." I find your entire post worthy of contempt, but I'll simply say that I think you'd be singing a very different tune if your paycheck was being devastated by BitTorrent.

I'm not insulting the game. Can't you people read? What the fuck man.

They have to sell their game better, otherwise it gets stolen. That's how it is.

I'm saying "Stop whining" because it's not really helping anything or anyone, actually.

 

[Fuu]

Nobody would pirate this title if it had half-decent DRM. Not that I'd say that would have been better, they just have a game there that's hard to sell to anyone, and if you're not preventing stealing there, that's what happens.

Do you really think so?

It's sad in a way, but hardly news if you think about it. There are myriads of software products that had a similar history. It's how it works if you've got no AAA game. People copy that floppy.

People pirate every game, from Bioshock to Petz Catz, regardless of budget, "AAA" or whatever term you throw out there.

 

[TheExodu5]

I'm not insulting the game. Can't you people read? What the fuck man.

They have to sell their game better, otherwise it gets stolen. That's how it is.

I'm saying "Stop whining" because it's not really helping anything or anyone, actually.

Are you really that dense? You think that DRM would have helped it's sales? 2DBoy even says that wasn't the case.

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

I didn't say anything about the game's quality or awesomeness. I'm saying it's hard to sell it.

Braid is also hard to sell. XBL did the trick, I guess.

You clearly stated it wasn't an AAA game, which isn't true in an empirical sense or even the Gaf consensus.

 

[wolfmat]

Do you really think so?

Read the title. The game gets stolen. It's happened before, with similar games in similar numbers. Yes, I really think so.

I'm not saying DRM is the holy grail. I'm saying it's something a pirate has to deal with, and in this case, it could have made a difference.

I'm not a DRM advocate at all, but there actually are cases where that idea could work.

People pirate every game, from Bioshock to Petz Catz, regardless of budget, "AAA" or whatever term you throw out there.

Not 80-90% (I'm not really buying the accuracy of the numbers here).

 

[wolfmat]

You clearly stated it wasn't an AAA game, which isn't true in an empirical sense or even the Gaf consensus.

"What does a Triple A rating mean? The ILFs are rated independently by the rating agency Moody's Investor Services. AAA (Triple A) is the highest rating that can be assigned by the rating agency to ILFs of this type. The rating is independent of JP Morgan Fleming and is only given after a thorough examination by the rating agency of a number of elements. These include an examination of the portfolio management team and its investment process, internal control procedures, the quality of securities held by the portfolio and the consistency of performance by the ILFs. A full technical definition on an AAA rating can be obtained from Moody's Investor Services. " From: http://www.efs-online.com/efs/faqs/jpmorganfaqs.asp, Q11

Edit: Whoops, link broken, hang on..

Edit: Well, all I have right now is Wikipedia.

Triple A = Credit risk almost zero

 

[TheExodu5]

Read the title. The game gets stolen. It's happened before, with similar games in similar numbers. Yes, I really think so.

I'm not saying DRM is the holy grail. I'm saying it's something a pirate has to deal with, and in this case, it could have made a difference.

I'm not a DRM advocate at all, but there actually are cases where that idea could work.

DRM doesn't do shit. DRM is wiped from the pirated release and has no effect on those who download the pirated game.

2DBoy even said Ricochet with DRM had the same stats as World of Goo without DRM. According to 2DBoy, they believe DRM has no effect whatsoever. I agree. It does more harm than good, as it punishes the legitimate consumer.

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

"What does a Triple A rating mean? The ILFs are rated independently by the rating agency Moody's Investor Services. AAA (Triple A) is the highest rating that can be assigned by the rating agency to ILFs of this type. The rating is independent of JP Morgan Fleming and is only given after a thorough examination by the rating agency of a number of elements. These include an examination of the portfolio management team and its investment process, internal control procedures, the quality of securities held by the portfolio and the consistency of performance by the ILFs. A full technical definition on an AAA rating can be obtained from Moody's Investor Services. " From: http://www.efs-online.com/efs/faqs/jpmorganfaqs.asp, Q11

Edit: Whoops, link broken, hang on..

Why are you posting a quote from an investment firm? Do you realise this is a video game forum?

 

[wolfmat]

Why are you posting a quote from an investment firm? Do you realise this is a video game forum?

This is where the term originates from. It's not some made-up stuff. There's your empirical sense.

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

This is where the term originates from. It's not some made-up stuff. There's your empirical sense.

The term AAA indicates quality. Empirically AAA means >90% in a review. The definition you posted has to do with the security of investment, and it has nothing to do with video games.

 

[Death_Born]

This is where the term originates from. It's not some made-up stuff. There's your empirical sense.

Yeah...it's kind of like saying that "Grade A" eggs originate from the fact that they constitute no investment risk...

AAA refers to high quality, and usually high budget games. I'm not sure if it refers to low-budget, high quality games, but I think it does.

 

[KTallguy]

The demo is pretty cool, I don't know if I'd buy it though.
Isn't this coming out on Wii?

 

[Fuu]

nevermind

 

[Sailor]

The demo is pretty cool, I don't know if I'd buy it though.
Isn't this coming out on Wii?

It's been out for a while lol. Where have you been?

 

[wolfmat]

DRM doesn't do shit. DRM is wiped from the pirated release and has no effect on those who download the pirated game.

2DBoy even said Ricochet with DRM had the same stats as World of Goo without DRM. According to 2DBoy, they believe DRM has no effect whatsoever. I agree. It does more harm than good, as it punishes the legitimate consumer.

Depends on the scheme. Considering that the game is a DD title, you can assume a working internet connection, validate the game online and hand out a lasting license, give an individual last chunk etc.

Games below $30 only get cracked if it's a trivial procedure or the appeal is immense, as I understand it.

I get that I'm not actually discussing this with anyone here.

You're all thinking of DRM as if it was the 18+ questions in Leisure Suit Larry, trivial to crack and a useless annoyance. I'd agree with the latter regarding a lot of schemes that are used in top selling games, but the former is only true if you've got that process automated for today's schemes, which involve a lot of rather challenging procedures.

Well, this goes nowhere, so I'm out.

 

[Wired]

It's been out for a while lol. Where have you been?

I'd guess in Europe

edit: about that, I'd imagine it'd get less pirated if it was released in all territories at the same time ffs.

 

[Log4Girlz]

For those who haven't bothered to post but may have glanced into this thread

Try the game, its free to try.

Awesome game. I apologize for those who may see my post and get angered at having to spend another 3 seconds to read my "Try this game" mantra, but this game is worth your wrath.

 

[TheExodu5]

Depends on the scheme. Considering that the game is a DD title, you can assume a working internet connection, validate the game online and hand out a lasting license, give an individual last chunk etc.

Games below $30 only get cracked if it's a trivial procedure or the appeal is immense, as I understand it.

I get that I'm not actually discussing this with anyone here.

You're all thinking of DRM as if it was the 18+ questions in Leisure Suit Larry, trivial to crack and a useless annoyance. I'd agree with the latter regarding a lot of schemes that are used in top selling games, but the former is only true if you've got that process automated for today's schemes, which involve a lot of rather challenging procedures.

Well, this goes nowhere, so I'm out.

Give me an example of a game that hasn't been cracked.

Also, online validation would be bullshit. I bought the game on my desktop with an internet connection, yes, but I would be unable to play it on my laptop when not connected if it has the ridiculous DRM you're suggesting. I'd be force to pirate it if I wanted to play it offline. Anyways, go work for EA, I hear their draconian DRM is doing them wonders.

It's a shame DRM-free games like Sins of a Solar Empire sell like shit.

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

Give me an example of a game that hasn't been cracked.

Also, online validation would be bullshit. I bought the game on my desktop with an internet connection, yes, but I would be unable to play it on my laptop when not connected if it has the ridiculous DRM you're suggesting. I'd be force to pirate it if I wanted to play it offline. Anyways, go work for EA, I hear their draconian DRM is doing them wonders.

It's a shame DRM-free games like Sins of a Solar Empire sell like shit.

MMO's are arguably uncrackable because theres no way to get the full experience without paying for it. Pirate servers aren't the same.

 

[TheExodu5]

MMO's are arguably uncrackable because theres no way to get the full experience without paying for it. Pirate servers aren't the same.

They're cracked. You're confusing some things. The method by which MMO's are "uncrackable" by your terms, is that they enforce user authentication. This is a requirement of the games themselves, and is not superficial DRM imposed for no reason. This applies to any online game with server side authentication. Of course, there's no reason to include server-side authentication if the game is singleplayer. Even online shooters don't enforce server-side authentication for their offline components, and that's the way it should stay.

 

[wolfmat]

The term AAA indicates quality. Empirically AAA means >90% in a review. The definition you posted has to do with the security of investment, and it has nothing to do with video games.

It does, it's about projected profit and a high level of quality, which indicates security of investment. Game development is all about that once you see it in a business sense. This is obvious, I suppose.

Yeah...it's kind of like saying that "Grade A" eggs originate from the fact that they constitute no investment risk...

AAA refers to high quality, and usually high budget games. I'm not sure if it refers to low-budget, high quality games, but I think it does.

This doesn't change that the original use of the term AAA is applicable to games development economy, which is why that term was used anyway.

I mean, it's okay if you can live with fuzzy definitions, I don't care, but seriously, I'm not making this up, it's how it is.


What you're trying to do here is making me look like I hate the game for saying it's not AAA. No I don't. I don't even know it, really. And I don't care about it. Maybe I WOULD hate it, actually. Who knows? I surely don't.
I'm saying it's hard to sell this game, AAA definition is totally besides the point.

It's just as hard to sell as Bridge Builder if you haven't played it yet. Or - I dunno - a Pinball game. Or a Lemmings clone with sheep that fart the holes instead of digging. Whether or not it's a good game doesn't matter for what I said.

Game's trivial to steal, so it gets stolen a lot. And this happens everyday. What's so hard to understand there?

I don't defend pirates. The morality of it is a completely different discussion. This is about how come there's 90% of pirated copies of WoG, there's my explanation, it makes sense to me, live with it.

 

[TheExodu5]

I don't defend pirates. The morality of it is a completely different discussion. This is about how come there's 90% of pirated copies of WoG, there's my explanation, it makes sense to me, live with it.

Your explanation means shit all. 2DBoy themselves have said that Ricochet was pirated just as much, and had DRM.

 

[wolfmat]

Give me an example of a game that hasn't been cracked.

How does that help here? And how am I supposed to do that? Geeze man...

Also, online validation would be bullshit. I bought the game on my desktop with an internet connection, yes, but I would be unable to play it on my laptop when not connected if it has the ridiculous DRM you're suggesting. I'd be force to pirate it if I wanted to play it offline.

Do you use Steam? There you go. They're doing the same thing, basically. Do you like Steam?

Anyways, go work for EA, I hear their draconian DRM is doing them wonders.

Why would I want to work for EA? Because I said something about DRM and it wasn't "BURN THE HERETIC"?
I'm not talking about EA's DRM stuff at all.

You're just fucking with me, right?

It's a shame DRM-free games like Sins of a Solar Empire sell like shit.

I thought it sold decently..?

 

[TheExodu5]

How does that help here? And how am I supposed to do that? Geeze man...

Well, you said low priced games with DRM don't get pirated, so I assume you had some basis for your argument.

Do you use Steam? There you go. They're doing the same thing, basically. Do you like Steam?

I use Steam plenty. It only requires you to be logged in when you download it. You can go into offline mode and play it offline. Also, you can log onto your account on separate PCs and play the game there. So basically, you only have to be online when you initially buy the game...I don't really consider that restrictive DRM.

Why would I want to work for EA? Because I said something about DRM and it wasn't "BURN THE HERETIC"?
I'm not talking about EA's DRM stuff at all.

You're just fucking with me, right?

Yeah.

I thought it sold decently..?

It sold very well. I was being sarcastic.

 

[Hunter D]

This pretty much shows that if devs don't try to stop are hinder piracy with drm people will still pirate games.

Good job guys.

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

They're cracked. You're confusing some things. The method by which MMO's are "uncrackable" by your terms, is that they enforce user authentication. This is a requirement of the games themselves, and is not superficial DRM imposed for no reason. This applies to any online game with server side authentication. Of course, there's no reason to include server-side authentication if the game is singleplayer. Even online shooters don't enforce server-side authentication for their offline components, and that's the way it should stay.

I'm not confusing anything. Server side authentication is uncrackable. If you are talking about the software itself, on any platform where the code itself can be rewritten these games will always be crackable.

 

[wolfmat]

Well, you said low priced games with DRM don't get pirated, so I assume you had some basis for your argument.

Let me say that I'm confident they're out there, hiding in the bushes. It's kind of hard to verify whether or not all games ever with DRM that are low priced are pirated or not, of course.
I only know the crack databases Google spits at me. They carry big titles' cracks almost exclusively. That's why I assumed there was a pattern to this. I'm not very knowledgeable with methods of obtaining cracks for all games ever though. So I guess my research method is kinda flawed because I'm not a pirate. Damn!

I use Steam plenty. It only requires you to be logged in when you download it. You can go into offline mode and play it offline. Also, you can log onto your account on separate PCs and play the game there. So basically, you only have to be online when you initially buy the game...I don't really consider that restrictive DRM.

That's of course all right as you say it. But the bought games are tied to your ID in a database somewhere over the mountain. That is, in fact, Digital Rights Management, just not tied to a hardware ID, an OS hash, ..., but instead tied to your identity as given at registration.
It's obviously less restrictive than for example EA's DRM.

 

[firehawk12]

This pretty much shows that if devs don't try to stop are hinder piracy with drm people will still pirate games.

Good job guys.

I bet more people pirated Gears 2 than bought and pirated World of Goo though, and the 360 is supposed to be "piracy proof".

 

[Hunter D]

I bet more people pirated Gears 2 than bought and pirated World of Goo though, and the 360 is supposed to be "piracy proof".

I know. But anytime there's an argument on piracy people argue that drm is one of the reasons why they do it.

This game seems to have had a higher rate of pirating than normal. I doubt GOW even has a 15% pirating rate.