Apparently not pointless enough...
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Xbox 3 Rumor: Dev Kit Silicon In Prod, IBM CPU/HD 7000 Series GPU, 2013 Release
- Thread starter McHuj
- Start date
Apparently not pointless enough...
[Nintex];34371794 said:
We don't know that for sure though. The rumor could be read both ways, for feedback on Kinect 2.0 or the system as a whole.
The type of CPU they use won't hold them back from how much memory they have. The amount of chips needed and how well they can cost reduce the hardware in the future will.
I've come to find out the vast majority of GAF don't know what they are talking about when it comes to hardware/performance/etc.
[Nintex];34372801 said:
To be fair, it was a huge paradigm shift in terms of programming, plus MS was really late with getting final hardware out. So the results of the first wave of games isn't too surprising.
I'd be highly surprised if this happened.
MS also cut corners on the cooling system and overall design of the motherboard.
A lot of this doesn't make sense.
Even if developers got final hardware 2-3 months before launch, it would still produce games a generation above what we're current getting.
They don't need final hardware to design the OS and feature set of the console.
Plus I'm not sure what Nintendo has really taught them outside of how to waggle.
How come everyone seems to hate Xbox 720... seems good to me?
How much wattage are we talking ?
Are we assuming that the next gen consoles will be eatting a lot more in power or aiming for similar usage ?
We are assuming that MS will be aiming for ~200W max.
Vinterbird
Member
It's a terrible name the internet gave the upcoming console because nothing else made sense. It's such a terrible name in terms of branding and marketing.
palpabl_purpura
Member
Can't believe I paid 60 bucks for that game. Pure crap.
edit: 70. I got the special edition
I remember seeing that exact same screenshot several years ago, and I knew that there was a problem. This was the first generation where the "wow" factor was not there from the start. Now we have some amazing looking games, but it's no secret that this generation of hardware clearly underperformed. PDZ ran at sub HD resolution, but we got the promise that 1080 games were coming. .. they never did. Hopefully hardware manufacturers have finally learned after all these years that low VRAM is a huge bottleneck. That, and stop trying to convince people that CPU cores can do the work of GPU/mini GPUs. . We know how well that worked out (Sony). There's just no substitute for adequate VRAM.
McHuj
Member
IBM announced that their fabbing 32nm chips with Global Foundries Fab 8. They're not constrained by 45nm.
The article mentions GlobalFoundries distinct from IBM's own fabs. IBM's own fabs are still on 45nm, and the Wii U CPU which will be produced in the same facilities, is made on 45nm.
IBM has a 32nm line at East Fishkill.
Duno Kameo was pretty awesome looking, I haven't gone back and looked it recently though I must admit.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
More than likely a heavily customized gpu and not exactly applicable in performance to its PC cousins, this rumor doesn't tell us anything more than MS didn't go as "cheap" as some had thought. As attractive as taking a Wii approach might be, repeating the approach they used for the 360 makes a lot more sense given what MS wants to accomplish.
ii Stryker
Banned
I think it has more to do with bringing it to market at an attractive price point though. $400 is my absolute limit on a console and by these spec estimates they're well beyond that.
Plus in their haste to beat everyone to market with the 360 and the rampant RROD problems that followed, M$ taking their time with their next console is the right move.
The 360 is still profitable and M$ isn't as eager to ditch the 360 as they were with the original xbox.
Nintendo taught them there's more to engaging the player then just pretty graphics, players also want unique experiences.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Noone even knows how much power the 7850 will draw when it's out.
Considering the big die shrink it will most likely be around 100-150 W (the current 6870 only draws 150W maximum unlike its super power thirsty 300W high end cousins).
Which would put it in a good range for a console GPU.
If they are planning to produce a 32nm chip for the xbox then that kind of goes out of the window though.
This news is a bummer to me.
A 7750 would be similar to a 6850 going by previous gens, which in turn is barely better than a 4890... Which is not a capable card anymore for 1080p 60 fps gaming.
An SoC with a midrange equivalent HD7000 series part seems about right.
Probably 7790 level performance at the most, a pitcairn die (245 mm2) is about the biggest I could see them fitting on a SoC, and it probably wouldn't be running at discrete GPU clocks either.
Even putting a pitcairn die on a SoC with a 6-8 core or so fully featured Power CPU, you are still looking at well over 500 mm2, which is a big ass chip. Could probably trim some mm2 by combining the memory controllers and cutting some non relevant features and clever chip layout, but still it'd be a big chip. Basically the same area as the GPU and CPU of the PS3 or 360 combined. A chip that size will have yield issues if the fab process isn't mature, and it will present cooling challenges if it is not very conservatively clocked.
Probably 7790 level performance at the most, a pitcairn die (245 mm2) is about the biggest I could see them fitting on a SoC, and it probably wouldn't be running at discrete GPU clocks either.
Even putting a pitcairn die on a SoC with a 6-8 core or so fully featured Power CPU, you are still looking at well over 500 mm2, which is a big ass chip. Could probably trim some mm2 by combining the memory controllers and cutting some non relevant features and clever chip layout, but still it'd be a big chip. Basically the same area as the GPU and CPU of the PS3 or 360 combined. A chip that size will have yield issues if the fab process isn't mature, and it will present cooling challenges if it is not very conservatively clocked.
Do you just not like the sound of it, or do you think it doesn't distinguish itself a la 3DS?
On consoles it is.
Gforce 7600/7800 that is in PS3 is can run Gran Tourismo 5 in 1080p/60, and Radeon 7750 is waaaaay more powerfull.
You can estimate wattage reasonably accurately by just comparing the area and clock speed of the chip to previous chips. The pitcairn die(7870) has roughly the same area as the 6870 die, and a 50 mhz more clock speed, so I doubt the power draw will be lower. The 6850 > 7850 jump is even higher, the 7850 clocks are going to be 125 mhz higher. I expect the 7870 to have a TDP of 175ish, and the 7850 150ish. Which is not to say that die can't be used in a console, it will just be underclocked substantially from the discrete gpu version.
This doesn't account for improvements in layout, but it also doesn't account for increase in static leakage from the die shrink.
SneakyStephan
Banned
GT5 isn't 1080p at all.
It also doesn't hold 60fps and it screentears like crazy. (+ no AF on consoles atm and the sprites for trees etc.).
If half the frames you output only finish rendering one half of them before you dump em to the framebuffer then it's not really 60 fps at all now is it?
They had to make big sacrifices in the graphics dep just to aim for 60 fps and achieve 1280x1080 res.
+ you know... ps3 has XDR and all that which probably does put it above a 7800gt when it comes to pixel pushing.
You really shouldn't bring up current consoles if you want to make an argument for 1080p 60 fps performance.
Better would have been to mention what high a framerate batman AA runs at at 1080p with 4x msaa on an old card like a hd 4890.
But that is why I said 'not anymore'.
Modern games like witcher 2, anno 1404/2070, shogun 2, bf3 , arma, trackmania 2, crysis 2 etc etc etc etc barely run at 30-35 fps on the same card.
Again hence why I said not anymore, css runs at 200-300 fps at 1080p on that card but it doesn't mean anything.
If people want bf3 to look like the pc version at 60 fps then a 7750 will most likely barely be enough with console optimisations (read turning graphics settings down where it's not too noticable).
No matter how optimised and to the metal and yada yada, you still need a certain fillrate for example to achieve a certain texture and shader quality at a certain res at a certain framerate. Can't cheat those.
Ok now out of the two names I want you to pick which name would be better for marketing purposes and explain why you think it would be good for marketing reasons
Xbox Infinity
or
Xbox 720
I like Xbox Fusion actually. I don't like Xbox Loop.
Nvidia has burned both MS and Sony. They are dead to the console makers.
LQX
Member
Always thought of it as such a odd terrible business decision by Nvida to basically fuck over MS and not come to better terms. You would think console contract would be one of the most lucrative. MS learned their lesson though by basically buying and owning the 360 GPU rather than subcontracting for each.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
I can understand MS, but why Sony?
Most likely Blu-ray. Even Nintendo uses 405nm disks (Blu-ray in all but name).
The architecture between the RSX and current Nvidia cards is vastly different, so I'm not sure what BC has anything to do with it.
Plus from a power consumption perspective, they are less attractive than AMD.
Honestly I can see Sony going with PowerVR before they go with Nvidia but even that is a pipe dream.
IBM could be producing chips for all 3 console next gen, so how is AMD producing GPUs for all 3 next gen any different?
If MS tries to sell their console at a profit, they already lost IMO. Of course these specs would be beyond $400, that's why MS and Sony eat up the difference.
You can have a solid stable system and not let your hardware sit out for a year+. They cut corners on the design, cooling, and testing of the 360. That doesn't have to be the case for the next system.
You know what else Nintendo probably taught them? That being underpowered will catch up to you in the long run. This gen will have lasted 7 years before a next gen system launches, next gen is likely to be longer. MS (and Sony) need to build as powerful of a box as possible to be as competitive as possible in the long run.
How did Nvidia burn Sony?
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Yuk...a 7750 based GPU, AMD's bargain basement runt of the 7xxx series, to power the next generation of console till at least 2017-18.
Decidedly unimpressed....128bit Memory interface, 80Gb of bandwidth.
That wont run 1080p @ 60fps once dev's start to implement their next gen visions, not even close.
Decidedly unimpressed....128bit Memory interface, 80Gb of bandwidth.
That wont run 1080p @ 60fps once dev's start to implement their next gen visions, not even close.
CitizenCope
Member
I know nothing about this tech talk but I love getting excited by wall of texts posts convincing me of good things to come then that same post gets replys of "Wat" "lol no"
Just when I think someone knows what they are talking about, they are shot down.
=(
Just when I think someone knows what they are talking about, they are shot down.
=(
1) This will be based on GCN not vliw 4 or 5 . This is AMD's new tech and you will see it through 2014 in the pc space , amd would be stupid to not have gcn in the console space .
2)This will be a custom chip and it will be powerful . The original xbox 360 had a 200w power draw .
The new sandy bridge e overclocked with 8 gigs of ram a high end mobo and a radeon hd 7970 is in the 390w range .
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph5261/43137.png
Now i know what your saying , thats to much power !
But look at it this way. Sandy bridge e is a large power hungry chip the 3960x chip which was used with the 7970
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph5276/43306.png
uses 70w more than its 4core cousin and 160w more power hungry than the i7 2600k.
Whatever IBM chip MS will use will be much power power efficient than the chip used in the 7970 power draw figures. You also have a very hig end mobo that uses alot of power in there too.
Lets also not forget that 28nm is a brand new process at TMSC and GF . As the process improves amd will be able to add more tranistors at similar or lower power usage. Look at the first image again , the 5870 and 6950 are on the same process , the 6950 is faster than the 5870 and has twice the ram and still uses less power about 25w less .
For those saying a 7970 class gpu can't be in the next xbox because its to power hungry ahve no idea what they are talking about .
It can't be in it right now in its current shipping state , but there is over a year before the rumored release date of the xbox next and alot of process changes can happen and will happen
2)This will be a custom chip and it will be powerful . The original xbox 360 had a 200w power draw .
The new sandy bridge e overclocked with 8 gigs of ram a high end mobo and a radeon hd 7970 is in the 390w range .
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph5261/43137.png
Now i know what your saying , thats to much power !
But look at it this way. Sandy bridge e is a large power hungry chip the 3960x chip which was used with the 7970
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph5276/43306.png
uses 70w more than its 4core cousin and 160w more power hungry than the i7 2600k.
Whatever IBM chip MS will use will be much power power efficient than the chip used in the 7970 power draw figures. You also have a very hig end mobo that uses alot of power in there too.
Lets also not forget that 28nm is a brand new process at TMSC and GF . As the process improves amd will be able to add more tranistors at similar or lower power usage. Look at the first image again , the 5870 and 6950 are on the same process , the 6950 is faster than the 5870 and has twice the ram and still uses less power about 25w less .
For those saying a 7970 class gpu can't be in the next xbox because its to power hungry ahve no idea what they are talking about .
It can't be in it right now in its current shipping state , but there is over a year before the rumored release date of the xbox next and alot of process changes can happen and will happen
Forsaken82
Member
Outside of a handful of titles (like perhaps a next gen CoD), I doubt we will see many games running at this level anyways so why even worry about it?
Call of Duty 2 on 360 was 60fps at launch.
I know you completely disagree with me here, but I feel like this statement is very much up for debate. In my opinion, neither the Wii nor the 360 execute their game plans effectively this gen. Both have things they can learn from the other, and the best decision for console companies would be to compromise somewhere in the middle and have the next line of consoles be simply adequately powerful rather than pushing the boundaries of hardware like they did with this gen.
I say this because the 360, overall, did not turn out as well as it could have. The reason this gen has gone on for so long is not because the hardware was made to last. Hell no. There are people complaining daily about how the current gen is woefully outdated. There is literally nothing MS or Sony could have done this gen to maintain console spec competitiveness for 7 years, and there's no way they can do that next gen. It's impossible. This gen is more than long in the tooth. The current HD twins are built on ancient hardware, and in the long run, it cost both manufacturers more money than was necessary. The reason this gen has lasted as long as it has is precisely because it failed early on.
The first half of this gen was a miserable affair for both MS and Sony. They were getting their asses handed to them. It just plain sucked. And yes, the fact that they had powerful hardware allowed them to make this gen a slow burn and eventually everything hit its stride, but that's an absolutely terrible business strategy. Digging a huge hole in the beginning in hopes of digging your way out later makes no sense. I'm inclined to think MS probably agrees. Did they plan to play second fiddle to the Wii for the first 4-5 years on the market? Hell no. Again, that makes no sense. What logic is there behind MS going gangbuster next gen if it's going to force them to price high ($400) and lose money at the same time? Because they want the hardware to last another 7 years? The hardware is going to barely last 5 no matter what, and then it's going to be pitifully underpowered all over again.
To me, it makes much more financial sense for consoles to last a max of about 5-6 years rather than 7-8 like it has this gen. Make money from the very beginning, build modestly, and make money again sooner rather than later. Apple and other cell phone providers understand this strategy very well. From a consumer standpoint, of course I'd want MS to create a beast of a console and subsidize the shit out of it to make it affordable. But that's not going to happen. MS isn't going to make a $500 BOM console and then price it at $250. At best, they'll make a $500 BOM console and price it at $400. In such a scenario, everyone loses. Consumers have to pay more. MS loses a ton of money from the very beginning. Developers have to deal with a slow adoption rate. Yes, the consumer that could afford it would get a really sweet console, but it's terrible idea financially for MS. They could make so much more money by trying to build a modest console and sell it closer to cost. If anything, the Wii shows that this is very much a viable option!! The wii died for various reasons, but saying it was simply because it wasn't powerful enough is so disingenuous. It died because 3rd parties didn't support it, and yes it didn't get any support because it wasn't powerful enough for ports, but that itself is a more complicated issue than just saying less power = less 3rd party titles. Imagine if nintendo had gone ahead and made the thing moderately powered but priced the same. The ports would have come. The games would have been there. The lesson MS should learn from nintendo is that there are better ways to make money than bleeding yourself for the first few years on the market.
Why do people think it's a 7 series chip? It makes much more sense that it will be an 8 series chip, or at least heavily influenced by 8 series features... and probably then some...
The chip in the dev kit will most likely be a place holder chip that will have similar performance, or not even that, just something to work with....
The first 360 dev-kit had a ATI R420, the 360's chip was much more capable...
The 8 series isnt coming out anytime soon. They barely got the 7 series out the door and thats only the High end Card right now. If anything the 8 series will just be slightly better 7 series the way they work
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Good God guys.
I don't get some of you. You're looking at something so much more powerful than the systems out right now as to be comedic, and you're still unimpressed. I mean this rumor doesn't even mention RAM types or amounts. Just going by the GPU this thing would be as much a leap over the WiiU as the WiiU is over the 360.
Honestly... what do you expect? Consoles are rarely at the cutting edge. Gaming PC's were being built with double the RAM of the 360 in its launch year, not including RAM on the GPU's. But they almost always use much faster RAM than PC's. A tradeoff.
Mainly because it's damn near impossible to put some of this tech into cases as "small" as an OG 360.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I hear you.
This is what I expect.
GPU= 6850 equivalent in raw power and GCN based plus maybe a few customisations.
CPU= 4-6 core custom IBM power with XX-MB eDRAM @ ~3.5ghz
RAM= 2GB GDDR5
HDD= 500GB
BD= 6-10X read
MS will have Kinect 2 and Sony will probably do something funky with a controller or other accessory.
Two words Party Pooper !
Shin Johnpv
Member
For a piece of home electronics they're going to be aiming for the thing to use 200 watts or less. Unless people want giant consoles that are way louder than even the loudest PS360s.
Expect to see a GPU that under load uses probably 75 - 100 watts max.
The 7970 ALONE draws 280 watts under peak load. In a years time there is NO WAY that chip is going to see a roughly 65 - 70% drop in power usage. (going from a 280 watts under load to a 85 - 100 watts under load chip)
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