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Xbox Series X’s BCPack Texture Compression Technique 'might be' better than the PS5’s Kraken

Three

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uh. The thing that Sony showed there was just a Demo in a controlled environment.
MS is just showing how an unoptimized Xbox one game could benefit from the SSD in terms of SSD.
The game wasn’t even enhanced for Xbox series X.
How was the Spider-Man demo? This is just a demo, not a real world scenario.
How is one a 'controlled environment' and the other not.
How is one 'unoptimized xbox one game' and the other 'an enhanced PS4 game'

Please explain how you came to this conclusion. Especially as the spiderman demo was from 10 months ago.
 
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ethomaz

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But how it can go above 7.2 GB/s when 6 is already a theoretical max? That's why i'm asking
There is no theoretical max.

If you can fit 7.2GB in 2.4GB thought compression and it can be decompressed fast enough.
You have 7.2GB/s.
 
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eastwood333

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Using these numbers...

PS5 20% compression = ~7GB/s
PS5 30% compression = ~8GB/s
Xbox 50% compression = ~5GB/s

But Cerny said PS5 compression averages at 8-9GB/s so it is about 30-40% not 20-30%.
I assume he is factoring other things as well. It's all speculation at this point. So nobody knows yet.
 
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ethomaz

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I get, i get it. But i'm talking about theoretical speed. :D
The speeds is 2.4GB/s... you are using 2.4GB/s... you didn't over crossed the limit.
You are traveling 2.4GB of data per second.
But when that 2.4GB is decompressed in the RAM it can be anything from 2.4GB (no compression) to 4GB. 5GB, 7GB, 9GB, 20GB, 100GB, etc... depends of the level of the compression (actually more like how fast you can decompress that level of compression).
 
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ethomaz

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Yes, that's raw speed as officially stated. Like you said +50% is around 5 GB.
With 50% compression it is virtually 4.8GB/s.

The limit for compression lies in how fast you can decompress it... if it takes too much time to decompress you can't use that compression level because it will affect the render time.

If MS can make texture decompression near instantaneous for 50% compression they can use... if they can make the same for 60% compression they can use... and so... if they can do that at 75% compression then they have virtually 7.2GB/s speeds.

Of course 75% is hypothetical and I just used it because it is what Sony get with Kraken for some data... so 22GB/s for PS5.
 
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OSC

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Are you really comparing a non-optimized game with a tech demo designed to show of that particular feature?
we don't know how optimized that demo was, for all we know it's a direct port of ps4 spiderman.

As for compression, that is only one of the bottlenecks, Cerny claims there are a lot of bottlenecks, and the i/o h/w has a ton of custom stuff to deal with them. Xbox has probably dealt with other bottlenecks too, but we don't know how their solution compares. Depending on what they did, it could narrow the gap in ssd performance, or it could multiply it.
 

it_wasn't_me

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With 50% compression it is virtually 4.8GB/s.

The limit for compression lies in how fast you can decompress it... if it takes too much time to decompress you can't use that compression level because it will affect the render time.

If MS can make texture decompression near instantaneous for 50% compression they can use... if they can make the same for 60% compression they can use... and so... if they can do that at 75% compression then they have virtually 7.2GB/s speeds.

Of course 75% is hypothetical and I just used it because it is what Sony get with Kraken for some data... so 22GB/s for PS5.
Yes, i know. Figured it out later why you use 75%, because a jump from 9 to 22. Because BCpack XSX SSD on average has higher compression rate from 2.4 to 4.8, while PS5 has from 5.5 to 8-9, which is less than 50
 

it_wasn't_me

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When I see State of Decay 2, yes :messenger_halo: (and the game still loads textures / shaders :messenger_tears_of_joy:)




The most funny part is Microsoft Vid was full official when Sony is "a leak" under on development..

The first thing Sony was build on PS5 is the SSD and all the bottleneck for an access instantaneous between (V)RAM/GPU/CPU and SSD.
When Microsoft build the Series X with the SSD on last on the concept.. (and cartridge)...
Yeah, BCPack, Zlib, Rtwo, Xcompression, Velocity, Kraken100, Speedoo, BlackBetty, Speedcap, FlashGordon, Snapjumper, Rapidlight, Quicknessless and what not and other alien tech in XSX SSD.....yet, still load textures in official State of Decay 2 comparison
 
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LMJ

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I don't get it...

Most of us have accepted the fact that the xbox series X is going to have a better GPU a better CPU and likely better ray tracing based on rumors
( This could change depending On what Sony shows us)

Why is it so scary for Sony to be afraid in one metric even largely so?

Why does xbox have to be ahead in every single measurement

For all of the whining about Sony fanboys in this forum trying to defend the PS5 and can't accept the superior competition, there seems to be just as many whiny xbox fans who are afraid to admit that the PS5 may be better in one way or another lol
 
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lynux3

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I assume he is factoring other things as well. It's all speculation at this point. So nobody knows yet.
What speculation? We already have hard data on SSD throughput. 2.4GB/s (4.8GB/s compressed), 5.5GB/s (9GB/s compressed). Xbox Series X's compressed throughput is still 700MB/s slower than general throughput on the PS5 SSD.
 

eastwood333

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What speculation? We already have hard data on SSD throughput. 2.4GB/s (4.8GB/s compressed), 5.5GB/s (9GB/s compressed). Xbox Series X's compressed throughput is still 700MB/s slower than general throughput on the PS5 SSD.
You overzealous fanboy. We do not know all of the details or how well either platforms will utilize Kraken or MS's BCpack. Its a fact!
 
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Sacred

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It is directly related to SSD speeds.
No it's clear what is being referred to here, you can make what you want of it though, I guess. I'm excited to see both consoles in action, then we can make judgements.
 
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oldergamer

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How good can this compression be? Ms has really been researching compression for years. They even found compression better then wavelet based.

Anyway i hope we find out more soon.
 

oldergamer

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Also how does machine learning play into this. I recall seeing something about textures made to be higher resolution via machine learning
 

ethomaz

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How good can this compression be? Ms has really been researching compression for years. They even found compression better then wavelet based.

Anyway i hope we find out more soon.
I believe it is lossless so there is no quality loss.
The final file after compress/decompress is identical to original.

Edit - I just confirmed it is lossless compression (at least Kraken is).
 
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Kenpachii

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So PS5 SSD speeds increased from 5.5 gb/s on their official blog to 8-9 gb/s, to 11 gb/s to now a theoretical max of Kraken 22 gb/s.

I never knew great games needed 22 gb/s of data transfer on a 10 tf system.

Look out PC power riggers, your HDD or 1 gb/s SSD are obsolete.
PC has ram, which is far superior towards any of there solutions.
 
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-kb-

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PC has ram, which is far superior towards any of there solutions.
Good luck accessing 100GB of RAM at the speeds of either SSD.

I believe it is lossless so there is no quality loss.
The final file after compress/decompress is identical to original.

Edit - I just confirmed it is lossless compression (at least Kraken is).
Kraken is lossless because its a generic compression algorithm like LZMA. BCPack isn't lossless because its a texture compression algorithm and is probably going to include a number of block compression algorithms, like BC1-BC7.
 
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eastwood333

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Voila.
This guy knows what he talks.


The same as I explained but I always over complicate the explanation.
Yet an ex Valve,MS, SpaceX employee states
You delusional fanboy. Who cares about the details? We have hard numbers on SSD throughput for both systems. It's a fact!
Here is a fact for you. XSX has the more powerful gpu,cpu,and more bandwidth. The majority of games are multiplats that will be best on XSX. Take it to the bank.



And tell me just how much of a difference PS5's SSD will provide over XSX's SSD. Give examples. Are we going to be expecting Sony exlusives to now be bigger in scope than GTA6? Just how much bigger are these games going to be vs XSX in scope? Tell me, Einstein.

My interpretation is that it can make the development process quicker,easier for certain task in games.
 
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RevenantX

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Yeah, let’s act surprised this is not the 20-th the BCPack decoder is not mentioned in a thread trying to both downplay PS5’s SSD speed advantage and pretend it has not been talked about yet (despite featuring prominently in the DF exposé and MS PR materials) :rolleyes:.

People are downplaying TF and hardware power so. Lol


And we don't know nothing about MS technique. So saying nothing can match Sony ssd is stupid
 

RevenantX

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Yet an ex Valve,MS, SpaceX employee states

Here is a fact for you. XSX has the more powerful gpu,cpu,and more bandwidth. The majority of games are multiplats that will be best on XSX. Take it to the bank.



And tell me just how much of a difference PS5's SSD will provide over XSX's SSD. Give examples. Are we going to be expecting Sony exlusives to now be bigger in scope than GTA6? Just how much bigger are these games going to be vs XSX in scope? Tell me, Einstein.

My interpretation is that it can make the development process quicker,easier for certain task in games.
Don't waste your time. You can't win against blind fanboys.

They just imagining that PS5 SSD will change everything and XSX is doomed
 

-kb-

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People are downplaying TF and hardware power so. Lol


And we don't know nothing about MS technique. So saying nothing can match Sony ssd is stupid
In raw uncompressed bandwidth the XSX straight up just can't match the PS5, with BCPack it really remains to be seen, but i don't see it offering more then marginal maybe ~20-30% on top of algorithms like BC7 at best.
 
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eastwood333

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In raw uncompressed bandwidth the XSX straight up just can't match the PS5, with BCPack it really remains to be seen, but i don't see it offering more then marginal maybe ~20-30% on top of algorithms like BC7 at best.
SSD do not make the PS5 any faster.

12.1tf sustained clocks vs 10.2 variable clocks. XSX is mathematical the more powerful console. DF confirms this.
 

-kb-

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SSD do not make the PS5 any faster.

12.1tf sustained clocks vs 10.2 variable clocks. XSX is mathematical the more powerful console. DF confirms this.
I never said it didnt so I dont see the point of your post, I was merely commenting that the XSX's SSD will never be as fast in raw bandwidth regardless of what MS has done.
 

DynamiteCop!

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You delusional fanboy. Who cares about the details? We have hard numbers on SSD throughput for both systems. It's a fact!
We have theoretical figures that don't account for differing proprietary methods of usage and system utilization, or compression efficiency. This whole thing is going to amount to just about fuck all in the end, I don't have a clue what in the hell you guys are expecting a faster SSD to actually do in a game when what can be displayed on screen is still entirely limited by your rendering capabilities.

This is where the logical cohesion completely falls apart because no one seems able to actually quantify some kind of practical leg up the PS5 SSD would have in game beyond miniscule load time advantages.
 

-kb-

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We have theoretical figures that don't account for differing proprietary methods of usage and system utilization, or compression efficiency. This whole thing is going to amount to just about fuck all in the end, I don't have a clue what in the hell you guys are expecting a faster SSD to actually do in a game when what can be displayed on screen is still entirely limited by your rendering capabilities.

This is where the logical cohesion completely falls apart because no one seems able to actually quantify some kind of practical leg up the PS5 SSD would have in game beyond miniscule load time advantages.
But they both quote compression numbers, so they do account for compression efficiency.
 
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DynamiteCop!

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I never said it didnt so I dont see the point of your post, I was merely commenting that the XSX's SSD will never be as fast in raw bandwidth regardless of what MS has done.
Who gives a shit? Microsoft has memory which can address 112 GB/s more data than the PS5's where it counts and it also has a wider bus, that's a way bigger advantage than this paltry slow ass SSD uptick. There's so many different ways that this system, its software, its hardware and methods of usage can completely evaporate this SSD advantage (whatever the hell that even is because no one can even explain it).

But they both quote compression numbers, so they do account for compression efficiency.
That denotes compression at the drive, not system handling beyond it. Hence this also being a factor... There's way more going on here.

 
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Kenpachii

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Good luck accessing 100GB of RAM at the speeds of either SSD.



Kraken is lossless because its a generic compression algorithm like LZMA. BCPack isn't lossless and is probably going to include a number of block compression algorithms.
Not even a issue.

All sony tries to do is emulate ram and that's about it. They won't be able to render anything from that SSD on the fly into the v-ram at the speeds that the gpu and cpu needs, so they have to park the data in the v-ram pool anyway which is the ultimate problem with the concept people are championing for here. SSD's just aren't remotely fast enough to do it on the fly.

This is also why cerny stated that its pure for loading speeds improvements because on the fly isn't possible.

All u will see next gen is probably a bit more ram requirements on PC and that's about it. But that's normal for PC market.

a SSD connected to ram that can swap data in out freely and reserve it for the gpu/cpu that needs it is far more superior and frankly consoles don't have the ram for it.
 

ZehDon

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In raw uncompressed bandwidth the XSX straight up just can't match the PS5, with BCPack it really remains to be seen, but i don't see it offering more then marginal maybe ~20-30% on top of algorithms like BC7 at best.
I'm actually very interested is MS's compression work. The closest we have to anything resembling real numbers (apologies if these have already been posted):
https://twitter.com/richgel999/status/1241549016112005121
https://twitter.com/JamesStanard/status/1241076025477357568

Of course, and assuming these are accurate, this won't make up the 100%+ gb/s increase Sony's custom NVMe has in comparison to MS's. The Sampler Feedback Streaming - which we're rather light on details - could also be interesting, in terms of mitigating the difference. Of course, if any of this is just software implementation, there's nothing to stop Sony or Devs from implementing their own solutions to mimic this kind of performance gain. Fascinating none-the-less, can't wait for the curtain to be pulled back on some of this stuff.
 
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-kb-

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Who gives a shit? Microsoft has memory which can address 112 GB/s more data than the PS5's where it counts and it also has a wider bus, that's a way bigger advantage than this paltry slow ass SSD uptick. There's so many different ways that this system, its software, its hardware and methods of usage can completely evaporate this SSD advantage (whatever the hell that even is because no one can even explain it).

That denotes compression at the drive, not system handling beyond it. Hence this also being a factor... There's way more going on here.

Cool a decompression block that outputs at >6GB/s compared to one that does 22GB/s.

I never even mentioned memory?. I see you also dont want to talk about the slower portion for the CPU or how that will reduce the over all affective bandwidth of the bus and increase contention.
 
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DynamiteCop!

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Cool a decompression block that outputs at >6GB/s compared to one that does 22GB/s.

I never even mentioned memory?. I see you also dont want to talk about the slower portion for the CPU or how that will reduce the over all affective bandwidth of the bus and increase contention.
And herein lies the problem, and this is all for what? These numbers are totally meaningless, and people are trying to add meaning to them artificially. They're bigger numbers, and there will be a compression efficiency variance, but what does it amount to? Beyond loading what could this system actually do that the Xbox could not? There's no answer because it's literally nothing. I want someone to actually quantify a preventative development difference that couldn't be mitigated in about 80 different ways by handling it differently.

I want someone to quantify the world building and how there's this expectation of so much more yet the prerequisite to actually render it. The scope of what you can load is limited by the scope of what you can display, and the PS5 is at a severe disadvantage in that department. Just to add even more to this, we're also limited by what we can actually see, so this whole mess of bullshit is all for not.

This is marketing run rampant, that's it.
 
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Goliathy

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And herein lies the problem, and this is all for what? These numbers are totally meaningless, and people are trying to add meaning to them artificially. They're bigger numbers, and there will be a compression efficiency variance, but what does it amount to? Beyond loading what could this system actually do that the Xbox could not? There's no answer because it's literally nothing. I want someone to actually quantify a preventative development difference that couldn't be mitigated in about 80 different ways by handling it differently.

I want someone to quantify the world building and how there's this expectation of so much more yet the prerequisite to actually render it. The scope of what you can load is limited by the scope of what you can display, and the PS5 is at a severe disadvantage in that department. Just to add even more to this, we're also limited by what we can actually see, so this whole mess of bullshit is all for not.

This is marketing run rampant, that's it.
Well, even if there IS a use case, is anyone honestly thinking that a third party dev that develops a multiplatform game, will design the game in that way that BECAUSE OF THE SSD the game will be extremely gimped on platforms that do not have an SSD as fast as the PS5 SSD? Like On PC AND XBOX?

I highly doubt that developers will design their games just like that.
 

DynamiteCop!

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Well, even if there IS a use case, is anyone honestly thinking that a third party dev that develops a multiplatform game, will design the game in that way that BECAUSE OF THE SSD the game will be extremely gimped on platforms that do not have an SSD as fast as the PS5 SSD? Like On PC AND XBOX?

I highly doubt that developers will design their games just like that.
Even in the event of something from their first party, what is this use case that would make it impossible on the Series X? There's literally nothing.
 
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lynux3

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Yet an ex Valve,MS, SpaceX employee states

Here is a fact for you. XSX has the more powerful gpu,cpu,and more bandwidth. The majority of games are multiplats that will be best on XSX. Take it to the bank.



And tell me just how much of a difference PS5's SSD will provide over XSX's SSD. Give examples. Are we going to be expecting Sony exlusives to now be bigger in scope than GTA6? Just how much bigger are these games going to be vs XSX in scope? Tell me, Einstein.

My interpretation is that it can make the development process quicker,easier for certain task in games.
Here's a fact for you.

2.4GB/s, 4.8GB/s
5.5GB/s, 9GB/s

I can't say what the difference will be, but based on the enthusiasm around having the SSD from multiple active developers not much has to be said if you pay attention. I assume the excitement around a powerful custom SSD solution conjured up by Mr. Cerny has you losing sleep at night.

Regarding Sony exclusives I don't have to look into the future when compared to Xbox in general. All I have to do is look in the past and in the near future for that answer... now the question is what can they do with the newly available resources? If we look at the last ten years I think we both know the answer to that question. :messenger_winking:
 
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JägerSeNNA

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I am just laughing hard to all these SSD talks. At the end of the day,the GPU will draw everything not an SSD. I hate to break you but XSX is significantly superior than PS5 on that department. The customizations which MS made on XSX’s SSD will be MORE THAN ENOUGH when you combine it with better GPU,CPU and memory. An SSD will not be enough to save the day if you have inferior GPU,CPU and memory.
 

lynux3

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We have theoretical figures that don't account for differing proprietary methods of usage and system utilization, or compression efficiency. This whole thing is going to amount to just about fuck all in the end, I don't have a clue what in the hell you guys are expecting a faster SSD to actually do in a game when what can be displayed on screen is still entirely limited by your rendering capabilities.

This is where the logical cohesion completely falls apart because no one seems able to actually quantify some kind of practical leg up the PS5 SSD would have in game beyond miniscule load time advantages.
These aren't considered "theoretical" in the least. These are considered "ideal" conditions; literally the baseline for each SSD. If these were theoretical we'd be seeing 22GB/s for PS5 and 6GB/s for XSX both based on their physical limits and whatever compression methods they're touting whether that be Kraken or BCPack. It's only "fuck all" in the end because its not in favor of your preferred system. Who are you trying to kid here?

However, of course you have zero idea of expectations or expectations of others because you have no idea in the first place.
 
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