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Yu Suzuki and DS scammed STEAM Shenmue 3 KS backers by giving them a different version of software.

ComptonJapan

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It was previously

"If a reward tier doesn't have any backers, you're welcome to make any changes to it or delete it entirely.

If a reward tier does have backers associated with it, you won't be able to make any changes to it (except for specifying new places that you'd like to offer shipping to)."


" When a project ends, the “Campaign” tab (the page with the project’s description, rewards, and funding details) is preserved and no further edits can be made. If there is new information you would like to share with your backers, we encourage you to post a project update."


Unless Kickstarter can edit rewards upon the request of the creators, then no.
 
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May 26, 2014
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Those who prefer Steam certainly have a right to complain about this, but a Kickstarter campaign doesn't promise anything. It lists the platforms that the game is targeting. Back when this Kickstarter happened, there was no Epic Games Store. Conditions in the PC gaming market have changed and more and more publishers are looking at how big of a cut Valve is taking out of every Steam sale and seeing Epic offering a much better deal to them in exchange for exclusivity. Publishers want to make as much money on their products as possible, it's hard to fault them for looking at the value proposition on their end and realizing they're better off with Epic.

When you back a game through a Kickstarter, you're not guaranteed anything. I backed Bloodstained, but I'm not going to be getting a copy of it for my Vita. The game was targeting Vita and could run on it. But the market conditions between the KS campaign and the games release changed and releasing on the Vita is no longer viable. Changing market conditions are not the developer's or publisher's fault and demanding that they make decisions that are not economically viable is a shitty FUCK YOU, GOT MINE attitude. It's nice to want things exactly the way you want them, but people keep grossly mistaking a Kickstarter pledge as a pre-order. It isn't. Anything you're given back out of the Kickstarter, including the game itself, is a reward. You get to choose the platform of your choice in most cases, but those targeted platforms may change between the KS and the actual release of the game.

This is not a case where the game is no longer coming to PC. It will be playable on PC. You'll just have to use a different launcher and not get every store feature that Steam offers. I get that the EGS is not nearly as featured as Steam, but it's still a platform in its infancy, who knows where it will be in a few years. This is anything but a scam, it's current market reality. A scam is when pledges are collected and then the developer runs away with the money.

TLDR--Satisfaction is not guaranteed on Kickstarter. When you back a game you are backing aspirations. Not pre-ordering a finished product. It's pure venture capitalism. You are investing money in someone else's ideas and dreams because you believe it will be something you really enjoy and want to help make happen. Sometimes it works out great. Sometimes not. If you aren't willing to accept the risks and changes that come with venture capitalism, you should not be pledging money on Kickstarter or other crowd-funding sites.

Edit--Looks like the campaigns specifically only promised copies for Windows PC? If Steam was not even specified as the targeted platform, then this entire argument is moot.
 
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demigod

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Are you sure, all I read in another forum is : PC download / PC Physical tier, nothing about Steam. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Although the time when S3 begin to kickstart the only possible store is only STEAM and GOG so it's fair to assume PC = STEAM/GOG.
Scroll up to my post #46 and click the link, people were backing it and it showed Steam. I even checked during the conference and it said requires Steam to activate, then like 30mins later or after the conference was over it was changed to EGS.
 

ComptonJapan

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You're making a fool out of yourself.

No, I'm not. You're just upset that I'm not agreeing with you.
 

Dr.Morris79

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You're making a fool out of yourself.

He/she already made a fool of themselves via their first post in the thread.
 
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Endless Fluff

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When you back a game through a Kickstarter, you're not guaranteed anything. I backed Bloodstained, but I'm not going to be getting a copy of it for my Vita. The game was targeting Vita and could run on it. But the market conditions between the KS campaign and the games release changed and releasing on the Vita is no longer viable.
The difference is that right now we don't get any refunds. When the Vita version of Bloodstained got cancelled, Igurashi came forth and said "if you don't like it, ask for a refund".
“It is extremely unfortunate, but as a result, we won’t be releasing the game on Vita. For the backers who have ordered the PS Vita version of the game, you will be able to choose another platform or request a refund.”
Now, apparently they (Yu Suzuki's Team) never mentioned a Steam version specifically on the Kickstarter page when the campaign was running, but they asked their Backers later on what version they want. Steam or PS4, which is pretty much the same.
 
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nikolino840

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Scroll up to my post #46 and click the link, people were backing it and it showed Steam. I even checked during the conference and it said requires Steam to activate, then like 30mins later or after the conference was over it was changed to EGS.
I read only w10 pc version
 

SonGoku

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But we are still getting the game tho? Just the redemption code will look different. Maybe it will be a chinese code since Epic are chinese spies according to Steam fans.
If you backed a game for windows but instead they give you a linux copy would you be alright?
Just dual boot windows-linux
If a reward tier does have backers associated with it, you won't be able to make any changes to it (except for specifying new places that you'd like to offer shipping to)."
The reward tier is PC and at the time of backing Steam was the store front
 

SonGoku

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We're lucky to even be getting this game. Fucking crybabies.
Why should we feel bad for greedy devs? they reason they jumped to EGS is Epic wrote them a big fat check
Why don't they have the decency of complying with the minority that will ask for a refund? pure greedyness
 
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ComptonJapan

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If you backed a game for windows but instead they give you a linux copy would you be alright?
Just dual boot windows-linux

The reward tier is PC and at the time of backing Steam was the store front
So you're offering hearsay and want me to take your word for it? I'm not seeing anything with steam on there and if it was, they're not breaking any terms of kickstarter as I posted. If they're not breaking any rules, then it's just people throwing temper tantrums. Probably because their 2002 Compaq Presario can't run Epic Games Store? Who knows.
 
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ethomaz

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Short answer. You had ordered and paid for a chicken topping pizza but received a turd topping pizza. It's just a pizza but it's definitely not what you had ordered and as a customer, you deserved to get a refund.

Turd Pizza(EGS) vs Chicken Pizza(Steam)
Actually just the box of the pizza is different... the pizza itself is exactly the same.

It is like asking a pizza expecting the old box but receiving a new one with others colors because the owner of the pizza company changed.

At the end you will forget the box and eat the same pizza.
 
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SonGoku

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All I saw was one person post a screenshot of a site that offer merch for games. Even if they said steam system requirements. Well, add a shortcut for your game in steam and launch it through that. Legally, they still haven't scammed anyone.
It was false advertisement to sell a game on steam only to change without a refund
Its the same as If they switched from Windows to Linux
 

donutkirby

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I think it's just internet culture circa 2019. Everything has to be ramped up to 10 to get maximum attention. The more hyperbolic the better. Speaking of drama queens:


"Betrayal!" :pie_eyeroll:

If it was announced that the game was no longer coming out on PS4 and was coming out on Xbox instead then I could understand the outrage, because then you would actually have to buy new hardware. But with this, you merely have to download a new launcher.



PC storefront fanboyism has to be the saddest of all:

8/16/32-bit era fanboyism - mostly unique hardware, each with a largely unique library of games. Still a little immature, but at least the fanboyism had some substance to it.
Xbox 360/PS3 fanboyism - different hardware, but mainly ports of the same games using the same engines. Fanboyism beginning to look very silly
Xbox One/PS4 fanboyism - pretty much identical hardware with 95% identical games. All but the most dedicated fanboys give up on the whole thing.
PC storefront fanboyism - literally the same games on the same hardware but with a different launcher. A new low for fanboyism.
I appreciate that you agree with my post, however I urge you to read my second post in this thread. This is not equivalent to console wars since Epic Store is objectively the worst store on the platform rivaling the Windows Store. Also, if a game from that's advertised on GOG or some other launcher had been forced into Epic exclusivity, people would still be pissed. This clearly isn't a case of Valve fanboyism.
 
May 26, 2014
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Its not hearsay, it was in the system requirements posted on this thread
Except this isn't from Kickstarter. The Kickstarter campaign only promised a release on Windows PC. Also please note the "Game is currently in development so system requirements might change without warning. We thank you for your understanding." They are literally advertising nothing on this page is guaranteed.

In addition, this is from Fangamer, the company being used to handle distribution of the rewards. The only thing this image shows is that, at one point, Steam was a targeted platform, and that that has now changed due to the change in PC market conditions.
 

LOLCats

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Idk why people kickstart shit, its you giving them money hoping you get a product (at some point in the future).
 
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Endless Fluff

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So you're offering hearsay and want me to take your word for it? I'm not seeing anything with steam on there and if it was, they're not breaking any terms of kickstarter as I posted. If they're not breaking any rules, then it's just people throwing temper tantrums. Probably because their 2002 Compaq Presario can't run Epic Games Store? Who knows.
This was a question from their survey
- Version of the game you want (Physical Steam Disc - Kickstarter Exclusive Case, Plysical Playstation 4 Disc - Kickstarter Exclusive Case, Steam Digital Download, Playstation Digital Download)

They called it "Physical Steam Disc" and "Steam Digital Download". Again, they ASKED backers which version they want.

Sure, you are technically right in saying that they never said it on their Kickstarter page, but they communicated it on different channels (lol, they even set up a steam page after the survey last year). Backers have every right to be pissed and feel scammed.
 

nikolino840

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This was a question from their survey
- Version of the game you want (Physical Steam Disc - Kickstarter Exclusive Case, Plysical Playstation 4 Disc - Kickstarter Exclusive Case, Steam Digital Download, Playstation Digital Download)

They called it "Physical Steam Disc" and "Steam Digital Download". Again, they ASKED backers which version they want.

Sure, you are technically right in saying that they never said it on their Kickstarter page, but they communicated it on different channels (lol, they even set up a steam page after the survey last year). Backers have every right to be pissed and feel scammed.
Maybe becouse Is not part of the kikckstarter's bakers rules but Is for devs only decisions?
 

DansDans

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Its not hearsay, it was in the system requirements posted on this thread
Those same system requirements (post 26) also say this

*Game is currently in development so system requirements may change without notice. We thank you for your understanding.

They've changed the requirements AND they've given notice. What exactly is the issue?
 
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SonGoku

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Those same system requirements (post 26) also say this

*Game is currently in development so system requirements may change without notice. We thank you for your understanding.

They've changed the requirements AND they've given notice. What exactly is the issue?
So if the system requirements changed from Windows to Linux it woulnt be false advertisement?
 
May 26, 2014
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So if the system requirements changed from Windows to Linux it woulnt be false advertisement?
Considering the KS campaign literally advertises "Windows PC", then if the platform was changed to Linux PC, there would be more of an argument.

I cannot, however, condone the term "false advertisement" for a venture capital project. Satisfaction is not guaranteed. What if, for some reason, Yu found during development that only Linux could possibly support his artistic vision for the game and that continuing to develop it for Windows would lead to a product he would be tremendously unsatisfied with? What if the game ran awful on Windows? Would he not be justified in switching it to another platform?

Yet again, a Kickstarter pledge is not and never will be a pre-order. It is an investment into other people's aspirations. In most cases they agree to reward you with a copy of the finished product. The mindset people are showing is of someone who walked into a store, bought a game for PS4 with a PS4 case and logo on it, went home, opened up their game, and found a Nintendo Switch cartridge inside of the case, with the store refusing to provide a PS4 disc or issue a refund. This is not what happened at all. The game is still releasing on Windows PC as advertised. Any mention on behalf of Yu and his team of Steam came well after the campaign drew to a close. The notion that this was promised from Day 1 is simply untrue.
 
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sol_bad

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Actually just the box of the pizza is different... the pizza itself is exactly the same.

It is like asking a pizza expecting the old box but receiving a new one with others colors because the owner of the pizza company changed.

At the end you will forget the box and eat the same pizza.
It's more like the base of the pizza was changed. Instead of a lovely hand tossed base you are getting a base made from liquorice or something equally disgusting.
 

SonGoku

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Considering the KS campaign literally advertises "Windows PC", then if the platform was changed to Linux PC, there would be more of an argument.
I cannot find Windows PC on the rewards, the only mention of windows pc is in their scummy update
I cannot, however, condone the term "false advertisement" for a venture capital project. Satisfaction is not guaranteed. What if, for some reason, Yu found during development that only Linux could possibly support his artistic vision for the game and that continuing to develop it for Windows would lead to a product he would be tremendously unsatisfied with? What if the game ran awful on Windows? Would he not be justified in switching it to another platform?
I asked the question because the same logic applies
If steam moneyhatted them to make it SteamOS exclusive would it be legal to not offer refunds?
 
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Pejo

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Fuck Suzuki, Fuck Deep Silver, Fuck Epic most of all. This chaps my ass for all sorts of reasons. There probably isn't any legal repercussion in the US, but in EU and especially AUS apparently there's something to work with.

I refuse to ever download the EGS, and this is very clearly a bait and switch move to chase those Epic Fortnite bux. 6 Million dollars raised by 60k+ fans just to get this project off of the ground, and they pull this sort of shit. If in any way I can refund, I'm doing it.

I really hope some of the bigger "journalist" sites pick this up for once, but I doubt they will. Kotaku only has a little side picture with a title and the comments are full EGS shilling.

The only solace I have is that the official comments are just as pissy about this as I am.

 
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Zaffo

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The system requirement discussion is getting lost in translation, the dev team changed platform not because of technical reasons or to make a better product, they are changing platform moved only by a big bag of cash, while in the process refusing to deliver on what was advertised on the original KS pitch.

I could understand if the game really needed some sort of EGS feature to run, but your greed is not a good reason to change the "system requirements".
 

ethomaz

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It's more like the base of the pizza was changed. Instead of a lovely hand tossed base you are getting a base made from liquorice or something equally disgusting.
The pizza you will eat didn’t changed... the taste, base, materials and how it was cooked is exactly the same.

There is no difference in the pizza.

Only now they changed the box the pizza come to your home or if you want a better analogy the motoboy that delivery the pizza to you changed... it is another guy now.

It’s more like you’ve paid for delivery by just eat but it’s arrived by deliveroo
Yeap... the delivery guy/company changed... pizza continue the same.
 
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Turkey Master Baster

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It is terrible on how this is dealt with, however this is a risk when you pledge on Kickstarter.

They should have made a disclaimer on a change of Storefront if it was going to happen but it does sound like Deep Silver's decision.
 
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Solomeena

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All I saw was one person post a screenshot of a site that offer merch for games. Even if they said steam system requirements. Well, add a shortcut for your game in steam and launch it through that. Legally, they still haven't scammed anyone.
I and everyone else that is not trolling can see right through you, knock it off with your bullshit.
 

DansDans

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So if the system requirements changed from Windows to Linux it woulnt be false advertisement?
Does linux run on a PC? Do you own a PC? If you own a PC, what would stop you from playing it? I dont know much about linux, but I understood it was for free - so seems the barrier isnt that big

Also, are they giving you notice that they're going from "windows" to "linux" - or is it just a surprise at the last minute

Because that asterix there covers their ass - it says they can change requirements without notice - that's their get out of jail card right there. In this case, they're giving people notice
 
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May 26, 2014
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I cannot find Windows PC on the rewards, the only mention of windows pc is in their scummy update

Literally click on the campaign. Every reward tier specifically states "Windows PC". Nowhere does it mention Steam.

I asked the questioned because the same logic applies
If steam moneyhatted them to make it SteamOS exclusive would it be legal to not offer refunds?
Why would being exclusive to Steam be any different to being exclusive to EGS? The game is still coming to Windows PC regardless--just as the campaign explicitly stated. It could also be exclusive to GoG or Origin and it wouldn't make a lick of difference.
 

ethomaz

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It is terrible on how this is dealt with, however this is a risk when you pledge on Kickstarter.

They should have made a disclaimer on a change of Storefront if it was going to happen but it does sound like Deep Silver's decision.
But when the KS happened Steam was the only option and nobody knows about Epic Store.

Now the devs found the Epic Store better for their project... things changes in 3-4 years... options changes... now it is better for them Epic over Steam.

I can’t blame them.
 
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Senhua

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The pizza you will eat didn’t changed... the taste, base, materials and how it was cooked is exactly the same.

There is no difference in the pizza.

Only now they changed the box the pizza come to your home or if you want a better analogy the motoboy that delivery the pizza to you changed... it is another guy now.


Yeap... the delivery guy/company changed... pizza continue the same.
Maybe more like the cooker still same only they just recently change owner to more newer and agressive pizza company.
or if you want to use delivery boy analogy : from old, slow and experienced pizzaboy to young, agressive and un-experienced pizzaboy.
 
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SonGoku

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Does linux run on a PC? Do you own a PC? If you own a PC, what would stop you from playing it? I dont know much about linux, but I understood it was for free - so seems the barrier isnt that big
WTF and going through the hassle of dual booting for one game? fuck that
Also, are they giving you notice that they're going from "windows" to "linux" - or is it just a surprise at the last minute
What good does it do if they aren't refunding you
"just letting you know you are are getting screwed, k thx bye"
Literally click on the campaign. Every reward tier specifically states "Windows PC". Nowhere does it mention Steam.
I did and i can't find windows pc on any reward tier
Screenshot please

nvm i found it, that kills my argument
Why would being exclusive to Steam be any different to being exclusive to EGS? The game is still coming to Windows PC regardless--just as the campaign explicitly stated. It could also be exclusive to GoG or Origin and it wouldn't make a lick of difference.
I said steamOS exclusive not steam
 
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sol_bad

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The pizza you will eat didn’t changed... the taste, base, materials and how it was cooked is exactly the same.

There is no difference in the pizza.

Only now they changed the box the pizza come to your home or if you want a better analogy the motoboy that delivery the pizza to you changed... it is another guy now.
You can eat a pizza without the box, you can't eat a pizza without the base.
Hence the base is Steam/EGS. You can't play the game without Steam/EGS. The base has been changed.
 

twdnewh_k

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Regardless of what anyone thinks of Epic and Steam, the fact that they changed the product means people should be granted a refund if they ask for it.
 
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