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Yu Suzuki and DS scammed STEAM Shenmue 3 KS backers by giving them a different version of software.

LordRaptor

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Those of you ITT going "but all competition is great! who cares if the products lousy, consumers don't care if theres money being thrown around as bribes behind the scenes!" with your galaxy brain takes probably think its super cool when government contracts get handed out to companies that threw the most lobbying money at the people in charge of assigning contracts rather than to the biggest most competent operators who'll get the job done correctly and on time, because 'competition!' too.
 

lukilladog

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However both services are a platform monopoly in the sense that certain games are unplayable without their software
Last time I checked devs are free to release their games on steam without any DRM, including steam software.

And shame on Yu Suzuki, he is ruining his legacy by using his backers as fire starting material, that´s all they represent to him.
 
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Pretty sure I never called steam a monopoly, only equated it to EGS and used the logic that if EGS is a monopoly then steam must be. However we've established that EGS is not a monopoly as it sells keys elsewhere. However both services are a platform monopoly in the sense that certain games are unplayable without their software.

Most sales are in the launch window of any game. That's why publishers spend thousands on denuvo even though it gets cracked in the end. Google is your friend here.

What nonsense. You argue back and forth until you get hit with an objective fact that destroys your argument, then you change the subject by claiming "YOU SAID X, THEREFORE YOU KNOW NOTHING JON SNOW" and completely ignoring that you were proven wrong. You've done it like 3 or 4 separate times in this thread
And what objective fact are you referring to?

Do you even know that piracy has a bigger chance to increase sales then giving a game lesser sales?

Pirates are going to pirate nonetheless if their is drm or not. If there is no drm they will wait. The only people being harmed by DRM are paying customers. If you dont even know this then I have a hard time listening to your "facts".
 

ethomaz

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Last time I checked devs are free to release their games on steam without any DRM, including steam software.

And shame on Yu Suzuki, he is ruining his legacy by using his backers as fire starting material, that´s all they represent to him.
Steam or Epic Store itself are essentially DRMs.
 

Pejo

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I'm pretty proud of the backers of this game so far. They're keeping the pressure on in gaming sites and the kickstarter site itself. Last update I saw was that Deep Silver is reviewing options for refunds or eventual (1 year late) Steam keys. I hope the pressure stays consistent until something is done.
 

brian0057

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According to the logic of your first point, EGS sells the same stuff as steam; videogames. No one owns what a videogame is so regardless of which one you prefer, you're gonna walk out with a videogame either way. The choices the consumer has in this instance is which one they like more depending on how they're made and that's what differentiates the stores.

In the case of "Big Mac", there's no Burger King version of this that people can buy to replace the one from McDonalds.

Exclusivity to one variation of a product isn't a monopoly btw. At least not a proper one. While technically it loosely fits the definition, a monopoly over an exclusive videogame is not the same as (for examples sake) a monopoly over the supply of clothes in a country, meaning citizens are at the whim of their clothes selling overlords. McDonalds has a monopoly with the Big Mac, but that's not a harmful monopoly.
Wrong. Again.
There's not something called "Video game" that someone can own and be equal to any other game. If that's the case, please, point me in the direction of the Steam version of Metro: Exodus that has the same gameplay, type of characters, story, setting, weapons, and source material but isn't called "Metro: Exodus." because I'd really like to play that.

A hamburger is made mainly with buns, patty, assorted vegetables, ketchup, mustard, mayo. Other than small things like extra ingredients, or the cooking method, burgers are virtually the same between stores at a basic level. So you get a burger regardless of the store and end up choosing the one you like the most.

McDonald has a "monopoly" on "Big Mac", not on hamburgers. You can make hamburgers and sell them without the Big M breathing down you neck as long as you don't call them Big Mac (this is more of a trademark issue).

So you're saying it's understandable that devs don't publish on GoG because DRM free means piracy, or in short, lower profits overall potentially? Sounds kind of similar reasoning as to why publishers are going to EGS. 12% given to the storefront is a whole lot less than 30%. Add to that the actual money epic is reportedly throwing in and it seems like a great deal.

Why is it justifiable for them to ignore GoG because of financial reasons, but when they choose EGS over steam for financial reasons they're suddenly hitler? Both the reasoning and the end result are exactly the same.
This is the part where we both can agree on something. They're all doing this for money. And I don't blame developers for it.
The problem is that, form a consumer standpoint, there's no benefit whatsoever. In an ideal competitive market, every game would be on every store and consumers would only choose the platform they like more or that has the most features. But, alas, we don't live in that world.

If developers want to put their games on the EGS, good, but don't screw over the consumers that where promised a release on other stores and expect them to be cool with it.
Is it more money for the developer? Absolutely. Will it make people hate both the store and the developer? Most certainly.
An anti-consumer practice doesn't stop being anti-consumer just because it makes money.

What do you think happens with streaming services (Netflix, Hulu. Amazon, etc.)? People choose the one they like and pirate the rest.
The same will happen with gaming platforms. Especially when every other company starts making their own "game streaming" service.
 
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#Phonepunk#

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I really don’t see the big deal. Ultimately the practical end result will be you see a different front end flash on the screen for a split second while the games starts up. It’s not like games that work in Steam won’t work on EGS.

That said I’m not a backer. Which probably goes a long way toward my lack of bias.

I’ve played the first Shenmue and while entertaining I found it did not respect my time as a player, so never finished it. This Kickstarter always seemed iffy what with Sony’s involvement from the beginning.

Reading accounts from the internet there are some people who threw hundreds of dollars at this. That seems like a massive gamble you should only make if you don’t expect to ever see that money again.

Maybe we all need to go back to piggy banks
 
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ethomaz

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Incorrect. If you download a drm free game from steam, you still will be able to play it even if you uninstall steam completely.
Of course these are not Steam games... you can put any game on Steam even these that are not related with Steam Client... you can even put an executable on your local machine to be opened by the Steam Client... they are using Steam as a download platform (they can be downloaded in others places like official site, torrent, etc)... they are games that works without Steam.

The fact you can unistall the game, you can move it, you even put in a PenDrive and play it means it didn't use the Steam at all.

Every game that uses Steam has DRM because Steam is a DRM-client.

PS. One of these DRM-free games you are talking: https://igg-games.com/arma-2-pcgame-695511079-torrent-free-download.html you can download it even on Mega and Google Drive officially... they are non-Steam games.
 
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lukilladog

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Of course these are not Steam games... you can put any game on Steam even these that are not related with Steam Client... you can even put an executable on your local machine to be opened by the Steam Client... they are using Steam as a download platform (they can be downloaded in others places like official site, torrent, etc)... they are games that works without Steam.

Every game that uses the Steam client has DRM.

The fact you can unistall the game, you can move it, you even put in a PenDrive and play it means it didn't use the Steam at all.

Every game that uses Steam has DRM because Steam is a DRM-client.
Drm free games definitely lose some steam client functionality, but not all, you can re-download the game, get patches, etc.
 
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ethomaz

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Drm free games definitely lose some steam client functionality, but not all, you can re-download the game, get patches, etc.
You can redownload from any place... apply the patch from any place.

It is not a Steam game.

They are indeed using a lot of download platforms and that includes Steam, Google Drive, Torrent, etc.

Steam is a DRM-client.
 
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ShaneDH

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I remember pledging for a copy years ago but I don't remember if it was Steam or PS4. Just send me whatever I don't care at this point. I have Epic and Steam installed anyway. In fact, I just bought Far Cry Primal, Watch Dogs 2 and Ghost Recon for 5$ on Epic. Thanks Tim 😁
Woah! I'm surprised your Epic Store account was not locked for suspicious fraud! 😂 JK

That's actually an awesome deal.
 

JCK75

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Man it’s literally just a launcher, imagine caring about this.
I'm really getting sick of people who don't know what they are talking about chiming in, it's not just about a launcher.. but even then it's a launcher that is totally insecure. I've used Epic Launcher for few years due to working on a game project and using Unreal Engine, during about 3 years of use they had compromised my username and password no less than 7 times. Eventually they got 2FA and that SHOULD have made everything OK except all one needed to lock me out of the account was my email address.. fail 3 times and I can't log in for 24 hours, try it once a day and I never get into my account.

Epic got way too big too fast, they are to this day not ready to support a platform of this size and instead of using resources to make it a launcher gamers choose to use, they try to force us there. The exclusivity is the other part that was just going way too far for me, I've switched my personal project to Unity and I'll never use Epic, ever... Tim has been such a lying asshole about everything here and I'm done.. if Epic becomes the primary PC gaming platform then I quit gaming on that day.
 
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ethomaz

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Except when you choose to call it a "download platform" :pie_grinning:
It can be used as a download platform (HD vitual) but that way you are not developing a game for Steam.
You just put your developed game to be downloaded on Steam.

Steam games have DRM by nature.
You have the option to add 3rd-party DRM over the Steam native DRM.
You don't have the option to remove the the Steam native DRM unless you remove Steam from your game.

Steam is a DRM-client.
 
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lukilladog

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It can be used as a download platform (HD vitual) but that way you are not developing a game for Steam.
You just put your developed game to be downloaded on Steam.

Steam games have DRM by nature.
You have the option to add 3rd-party DRM over the Steam native DRM.
You don't have the option to remove the the Steam native DRM unless you remove Steam from your game.

Steam is a DRM-client.
Mmh, yeah?, if devs want certain steam features they will be adding steam drm. But it doesn´t necessarily mean "games are unplayable without their software", or, "you need to login to download and play the game ", because devs are allowed to sell drm free games there, not steam feature loaded, but drm free nonetheless.
 
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Enjay

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"They wanted 2 mil, and got 6 from the fans"-above vid

and now they're whoring themselves out for more. This is scummy of them. It's a shame as I've been waiting for this story to conclude a long time and now it won't (as this game is going to bomb.)
 
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theclaw135

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It can be used as a download platform (HD vitual) but that way you are not developing a game for Steam.
You just put your developed game to be downloaded on Steam.

Steam games have DRM by nature.
You have the option to add 3rd-party DRM over the Steam native DRM.
You don't have the option to remove the the Steam native DRM unless you remove Steam from your game.

Steam is a DRM-client.
Steam allows games to be sold that don't require the Steam client to play.

But a game is de facto Steam exclusive if the available activation keys are exclusively Steam, and a Steam account and the client are required in order to download the game files.
 

LordRaptor

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You don't have the option to remove the the Steam native DRM unless you remove Steam from your game.
Yes you do.
You don't know what you're talking about.

This is like your infamous streetfighter posts. You're just making shit up.
 

urmie

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I'm really getting sick of people who don't know what they are talking about chiming in, it's not just about a launcher.. but even then it's a launcher that is totally insecure. I've used Epic Launcher for few years due to working on a game project and using Unreal Engine, during about 3 years of use they had compromised my username and password no less than 7 times. Eventually they got 2FA and that SHOULD have made everything OK except all one needed to lock me out of the account was my email address.. fail 3 times and I can't log in for 24 hours, try it once a day and I never get into my account.

Epic got way too big too fast, they are to this day not ready to support a platform of this size and instead of using resources to make it a launcher gamers choose to use, they try to force us there. The exclusivity is the other part that was just going way too far for me, I've switched my personal project to Unity and I'll never use Epic, ever... Tim has been such a lying asshole about everything here and I'm done.. if Epic becomes the primary PC gaming platform then I quit gaming on that day.
It seems as if all the counter-opinions are by folks who haven't backed the campaign to begin with. Their opinion is invalid. For gamers who made Shenmue 3 happen, it's pretty simple, they chose Steam as their preferred platform, Yu Suzuki and YSNet should honor that commitment. YSNet telling backers "deal with it" should probably signal the PR/marketing team is doing a terrible job. They should also recognize, they wouldn't be where they are today, if not for the community.

For backers who want to switch, look for your FanGamer backer survey email, click the link and update your selection to PS4, if that's ok (that's what I did). Otherwise, continue the pressure. It's your money, don't let non-stakeholders interfere with your voice.

At the end of the day, Yu Suzuki/YSNet gave the deal the go ahead, so they need to think, was all this worth it? Building all the goodwill and trust, only to lead to this bad press/environment. Good luck on Shenmue 4.
 

green sticker

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Guess I'm glad I backed this twice. I backed for a PC copy with the reasonable assumption and expectation it would be available on Steam, like every other fucking game under the sun at the time.
 

Havoc2049

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Imagine paid this shite on Linux because of the Steam launcher and then they just sending you a different version of the software that doesn't work and forcing you to buy windows O/S in order to launch that launcher.


This is not about fanboy wars, it's just about false advertising. People not getting what they had paid for.
I backed Shenmue III on Kickstarter at the $100 level.

This is what they promised me during the Kickstarter campaign:
  • Choose one of the following: 1. PS4 Physical Copy 2. PS4 Digital Copy 3. Windows PC Physical Copy 4. Windows PC Digital Copy.
  • Digital copy of the Trial version for PC
  • Your name in the credits.
  • Includes the $5 Reward.
  • International phone card (in-game item)
Where is the false advertising?
 

lukilladog

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I backed Shenmue III on Kickstarter at the $100 level.

This is what they promised me during the Kickstarter campaign:
  • Choose one of the following: 1. PS4 Physical Copy 2. PS4 Digital Copy 3. Windows PC Physical Copy 4. Windows PC Digital Copy.
  • Digital copy of the Trial version for PC
  • Your name in the credits.
  • Includes the $5 Reward.
  • International phone card (in-game item)
Where is the false advertising?
It seems the windows pc physical copy will be just a code for the EGS, game collectors be like: :lollipop_tears_of_joy: As for the steam copy, pc game backers will have to be a lot more careful and strict from now on, companies are not your friends, YS is not your friend.
 

ethomaz

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According to this logic, GOG is a DRM because you have to log in to your account to download games you bought from there.
GOG client has no DRM.
Steam-client is DRM.

If you didn’t login you can’t play games build for Steam (you play games that are not build for Steam)... there is an Offline option that you need to setup and that game you will be able to play for longer periods without needs to login in Steam.
 
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What a shit show. And all this for no-Steam (at least for launch).

Let's be fair guys..... for all the PC gamers sitting on the sidelines laughing at console warriors with their weak ass hardware, and PC gamers are going nuts over this?

What happened to.... "this is what makes PC great! It's opened ended, flexible and you can do anything. No walled garden console ecosystem".

Well ya, you still can play Shenmue III. All you got to do is switch from a Steam launcher to an Epic launcher. Walled garden? Hardly. Its more like hopping over a neighbour's fence that's only 3 ft high. You still have access.

But even if you don't want to have multiple launchers, now you know how console gamers feel with console exclusives and 99% of games not having crossplay. PC having multiple launchers is edging to something similar in a way. But it's still just a click away. Nothing to get angry about.
 
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donutkirby

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GOG client has no DRM.
Steam-client is DRM.

If you didn’t login you can’t play games build for Steam (you play games that are not build for Steam)... there is an Offline option that you need to setup and that game you will be able to play for longer periods without needs to login in Steam.
You didn't even read what @lukilladog said. The DRM-free games on Steam can be downloaded from the client and then played with Steam uninstalled right after.
 

lukilladog

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But even if you don't want to have multiple launchers, now you know how console gamers feel with console exclusives and 99% of games not having crossplay. PC having multiple launchers is edging to something similar in a way. But it's still just a click away. Nothing to get angry about.
When companies try to achieve success using their deep pockets rather than merits and hard work, it´s perfectly fine to be angry.
 

ethomaz

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You didn't even read what @lukilladog said. The DRM-free games on Steam can be downloaded from the client and then played with Steam uninstalled right after.
Did you read what I said first?

These “DRM-free” games are only games coded without Steam... they are only hosted in Steam to be downloaded like Google Drive or torrent... so of course you can uninstall Steam because they are not build with Steam at all... you don’t even need Steam to download them.

Games build with Steam are DRM because Steam is essentially a DRM-client.
 
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donutkirby

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Did you read what I said first?

These “DRM-free” games are only games coded without Steam... they are only hosted in Steam to be downloaded like Google Drive.

Games build with Steam are DRM because Steam is a DRM-client.
Steam isn't inherently DRM. Developers have an option to add a DRM wrapper to ensure steamworks features work properly with the game.
 

lukilladog

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Did you read what I said first?

These “DRM-free” games are only games coded without Steam... they are only hosted in Steam to be downloaded like Google Drive or torrent... so of course you can uninstall Steam because they are not build with Steam at all... you don’t even need Steam to download them.

Games build with Steam are DRM because Steam is essentially a DRM-client.
I´ve just checked and there seems to be a lot of drm free games being sold in steam, so they are not only "hosted for download".
 

ethomaz

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I´ve just checked and there seems to be a lot of drm free games being sold in steam, so they are not only "hosted for download".
What that is related with what I said? You can host a game on Steam, price it and it not be build to Steam.

The fact it runs if you uninstall or move the folder to another computer just shows it is an standalone game not build with Steam.

Steam games are DRM... requires the client and logins to works... you can’t move, or play in other computer without install the Steam client and login.

But I explained in the first post before the quotes so I’m just repeating over and over lol
 
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lukilladog

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What that is related with what I said? You can host a game on Steam, price it and it not be build to Steam.

The fact it runs if you uninstall or move the folder to another computer just shows it is an standalone game not build with Steam.

Steam games are DRM.
They are another product on steam, you can´t cherry pick like this and generalize to say it´s a drm platform:

"Steam or Epic Store itself are essentially DRMs. "
 
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BONKERS

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Since they never would allow a DRM free release, where else would it have been released on PC up until 6 months ago? Before EGS hit the limelight?

No where but Steam. People asked about DRM free right at the beginning of the campaign. And they basically just dismissed the idea.
Now that you have sold out, at least FFS give people the game DRM free if they don't want EGS.


They are another product on steam, you can´t cherry pick like this and generalize to say it´s a drm platform:

"Steam or Epic Store itself are essentially DRMs. "
Steam itself isn't DRM. Valve doesn't require developers to make their games use Steamworks, add any DRM,or require the client to run to play the game. Steam doesn't pay developers to make Steam-Only releases. Valve doesn't stop them from selling keys outside of Steam and then give Valve a cut. (Last I checked those keys Valve gets 0%)Valve even allows companies to require a separate launcher. (Which often once you buy that game, you don't have to have Steam running to play that. You can launch the 3rd party launcher and use that without Steaming having to be running. Like Uplay.

These are all *choices* developers and publishers make.
People like to frame the stupid "Well it's only on Steam and Steam is DRm, blah blabh argument and no one complains about that exclusiveness". Valve isn't forcing anyone do any of these things. They are free to sell direct and on other platforms as they please.
 
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down 2 orth

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Pure bullshit. I hope the developers and Deep Silver are held to account. I'm not going to buy a single Deep Silver game until this mess is sorted out.
 
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Keihart

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Imagine paid this shite on Linux because of the Steam launcher and then they just sending you a different version of the software that doesn't work and forcing you to buy windows O/S in order to launch that launcher.


This is not about fanboy wars, it's just about false advertising. People not getting what they had paid for.
It's this for preorders or backers?
As a backer myself, i gave money to the project completly aware of the fact that there was nothing guaranteed...as everyone should, because kickstarter or anything similar is always the equivalent to giving money to someone on the street, there are no guarantees that they will expend it wisely, for all you know they are buying crack with it.

If this steam backers were "pre-orders", then this is super not cool, there should be refunds.
Can't remember what i selected for my copy now, gotta check that.
 

Wink

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Don't preorder, don't back. Things change. If you're not ready to accept a change to your disadvantage never spend money on something you have no idea how it will turn out. There has always and will always be risk involved in giving people money for promises.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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Don't preorder, don't back. Things change. If you're not ready to accept a change to your disadvantage never spend money on something you have no idea how it will turn out. There has always and will always be risk involved in giving people money for promises.
Well said.

I will never deposit money for something without a guarantee. And aside from a few Kickstarters I read about where the guy was willing to give people their money back (probably because he never started it anyway), the vast majority of KS campaigns are one-sided deals, where the pledger has to hope and pray it comes through.

It's among the only things in the world where putting money down gets you zero obligation towards a warranty, refunds, and deposit back once the goal is reached. It's like giving a plumber a $100 deposit to show up, but he never does. Doesn't have to, and nowhere does it say he has to come by or refund your money.

And gamers are still willing to roll the dice.
 
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Don't preorder, don't back. Things change. If you're not ready to accept a change to your disadvantage never spend money on something you have no idea how it will turn out. There has always and will always be risk involved in giving people money for promises.
As I've stated before in this thread, backing a project on Kickstarter (or any other crowdfunding site for that matter) is not a pre-order. Crowd-funding is nothing but venture capitalism. The only difference is that instead of getting a few wealthy investors to make large investments, it counts on a large volume of small investments from average people.

Anything you back by crowd-funding is essentially a pig in a poke. Sure, there will likely be pictures and videos explaining what the creator is trying to make and what they intend to do with the investment, but there is absolutely no guarantee that the finished product will be something you will be satisfied with. Have we already forgotten Mighty No. 9?

No one backing the Shenmue III Kickstarter was pre-ordering the game. All they did was give Yu and has company money to fund his project. There was never any guarantee of how it would turn out.

Specifically in this case, Yu never promised to deliver the game on Steam when he collected money. He promised to deliver the game on PC and PS4. Steam only entered into the equation after-the-fact when Fangamer, the company handling the Kickstarter rewards for this project, sent out fulfillment surveys to backers that listed the Steam client as part of the system requirements for the PC version, and allowed backers to select to receive a Steam key or disc as part of their rewards. The very same survey also warned that the game was still in development and that the system requirements were subject to change without notice.

Lo and behold, that's exactly what happened. The system requirements for the PC version changed from Steam client to EGS. That's what this entire argument is about. Many backers assumed that they would receive the game on Steam when they blindly threw their money at the Kickstarter. And as the old saying goes, never assume--because when you do you make an ass out of u and me.

Venture capitalism, including crowd-funding, carries many risks and rewards. But the bottom line is you are spending your money on a lottery ticket that the end result will be something really good that is worth what you put up to help make it happen. Sometimes it works out great. Sometimes it works out like Mighty No. 9. You have no way of knowing. Never make assumptions when pledging your money to an unfinished product. Because if you aren't satisfied with the end result, you are left with little to no recourse. Unless it's complaining longly and loudly on an internet forum.

The saddest thing to me is how many people are going to let this hinder their enjoyment of a product they were looking forward to. I would honestly feel far more empathy for those that are upset if the Kickstarter itself had promised Steam. That is something to always pay attention to. Note how Bloodstained, another high profile Kickstarter project, explicitly lists Steam in its campaign, instead of something more nebulous like "PC" or "Windows." The campaign explicitly states you will receive a copy of the game on Steam, and that is what is happening.

Look before you leap, and if you fail to do that, don't expect the House to cover your losses because you gambled.
 
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Kazza

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I paid $30 for a digital PC copy. I'm getting a digital PC copy. Also, the game has turned out to be much bigger in scale and quality than what I expected when I initially backed it (my expectations were low, hence only pledging $30).

No scam as far as I'm concerned.