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15 year old girl beaten as security guards look on

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god in the 80s at a part time job my uncle was a security guard for a mall department store, got hit in the head with a baseball bat by some robber, didnt go down and then he slammed the dude into a parked car in the lot and haymakered him, didn't get fired, was treated like a hero

different era I guess :lol
 

kaskade

Member
So security guards can't do anything basically. What the hell is the point of them? If I'm in the mall and I see something going down I'll call the cops. Having them there seems pretty pointless.
 

KevinCow

Banned
idahoblue said:
If you want them to act like cops, pay them like cops, and give them the authority of cops. If you think they should have acted as regular citizens, how about you rag on all the other people around who didn't help? You really expect someone to jump in when they have been told explicitly not to or its their job? And then don't expect people without their job at stake to help?

Everyone around there who didn't intervene was at fault, but the security guards more so because she specifically came to them for help and they ignored her.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Deku said:
if security at the mental wards can't intervene, who exactly goes in to stop the unbalanced persons?
police usually. you and the nurses get to play dodgeball while you try to talk them down, luckily there are usually officers in the complex during most hours of the day.
 

slit

Member
.GqueB. said:
In this job market? PFFT! Girl is fine anyways. And she gets immortalized on the interwebs to boot. Shes comin up Milhouse if ya ask me.
....and so everything comes full circle. If they did get fired, once again, nobody would do anything to stand up for what is right and allow that injustice to occur because "hey, it's not my problem."
 
shagg_187 said:
That's exactly what I'm saying. Couldn't they just circle that girl and not let anyone get to her, and then escort her out of the bus tunnel (or in a bus) where she is on her own? I mean if they escort her and someone pushes them outta the way, I'm sure they can push back... or will they get their asses kicked and observe?

Seriously. Theres one thing for trying to break up a fight, but there is another thing like trying to help somebody up and checking to see if they are ok. No lets just stand around like a moron while theres a girl on the ground. Idiots.
 
I don't see why so many people are shitting on the security guard's. The police who refused to escort her fucked up and should be receiving criticism since they were the ones who originally kicked them out of the store to begin with. Sure as a human being, it was probably sickening to watch someone get beat up on but with no training and a possibility of a concealed weapon(which apparently there wasn't in this case but you never know.) you can't be sure of what you're getting involved in.

A lot of the people posting are giving the guards a bad rap and it's much easier to say to act like a superhero than to do it yourself if the situation presented itself.
 

Rickard

Member
rorschach.jpg
 

Dead Man

Member
KevinCow said:
Everyone around there who didn't intervene was at fault, but the security guards more so because she specifically came to them for help and they ignored her.
I get that, but they are also the only ones who have been told they couldn't intervene. Sure she asked them, and it sucks they didn't do anything, but I can't blame them for it. I can blame their employer for being shitty, and the cops for not giving an escort.
 

nyong

Banned
Anyhow. I guess you can say that the security guards should have acted against their own best interests, risked (literally) their jobs and lives to intervene - on principle. But calling for them to get fired? No. They should no more be fired from their jobs than the civilians standing around. Neither are trained for that type of situation. An accountant is quite literally just as prepared to diffuse it.

Hell, the security guards are trained NOT to step in. If you really want to lay the blame somewhere, the focus should be on the civilians if anyone.

(they're all civilians...I meant the ones not currently working)
 

L00P

Member
Those kids must have known how useless those security guards were.

And the bystanders didn't do anything probably because they expect the guards to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. There are like fucking four of them RIGHT NEXT to the girls fighting
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
nyong said:
Hell, the security guards are trained NOT to step in.
just to clarify here, what passes for 'training' for large rent a guard firms can be summed up as a 6 hour video marathon and a scantron test. if you get 70% right, you pass. oh and i guess somebody tells you what the keys do when you get to the site.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
This is good shit:

Police Sergeant Urquart said:
"If you're a bank teller and you do something other than give them the money, you're going to get fired," Urquhart said.

I'm pretty sure if a 15-year old girl went into a bank and said "give me money or I'll beat you up," and the teller gave her the money, the teller would get fired.

People in this thread are asserting that the guards had no choice because they would have been fired are doing so on some pretty weak evidence. Just because you have "observe and report" orders doesn't mean intervening to break up a fight is a firable offense. There's little in the story to suggest that they had explicit orders not to break up fights except for some self-serving assertions by interested parties. I would like to see this "agreement" Desmond refers to.
 

KevinCow

Banned
Pandaman said:
they have absolutely no training when it comes to safely subduing an attacker without causing further harm to the victim or the violator on top of this they would be effectively terminating their employment and possibly end up facing charges themselves.

they did the right thing and that was to ensure that the four responsible didn't get away with it.

Yes, a girl came to them and said, "I'm about to get jumped, please help me," and the right thing to do was to let her get jumped and make sure the attackers get in trouble, as opposed to preventing the attack from happening at all.

Wait, no, nevermind. That's not the right thing to do by any moral standard outside of "fuck everyone who is not me."
 
So the job description of these phoney "security" guards is to observe and report.

Okay, say an incident like that one where the kid is set on fire by 3 or 4 other boys happens there. The guards should/would just stand there and let the kid burn? (This was the Denver Jarvis case). Sounds like that'd be a-okay with some of the people on this thread.

As I asked before, so what if it was a 7 yo or a 4 yo getting kicked in the head? Think anyone would step in then? Sure as shit they would. I believe kicking someone in the head is considered attempted murder.

A big reason these "guards" didn't help is because the attackers were close to being (and some were) adults, so they were bigger, probably more physically threatening. The guards were afraid in this case and convienently excused their own fear by focusing on their job description.

Additionally, for the guards to be fired if they intervened would be the decision of management/supervisors in charge. We all know there are no automatics when it comes to any type of management. This wouldn't even be a significant story had the guards helped. No one has to fire these people, if it happened they were to have been fired, it would be some numb nut's choice to do so.
 

.GqueB.

Banned
Dude Abides said:
This is good shit:



I'm pretty sure if a 15-year old girl went into a bank and said "give me money or I'll beat you up," and the teller gave her the money, the teller would get fired.

And what is the evidence that they would have been fired for intervening? Just because you have "observe and report" orders doesn't mean intervening to break up a fight is a firable offense. There's nothing in the story to suggest that they had explicit orders not to break up fights.
An odd example but yes if that same 15 yr old girl handed her a note that said "hand over the money or I'll kill everyone in here" then yea the teller has to fork it over.

The example you gave would have the armed guard on her ass in a second and the teller wouldnt have an opportunity to give her the cash.
 

nyong

Banned
Pandaman said:
just to clarify here, what passes for 'training' for large rent a guard firms can be summed up as a 6 hour video marathon and a scantron test. if you get 70% right, you pass. oh and i guess somebody tells you what the keys do when you get to the site.

Yep, it's a similar concept to a military presence patrol, albeit one that cannot return fire. They're a body on the ground who is paid to simply be there and keep their eyes open for suspicious activity - 30/20 (correctable) vision and the knowledge to operate a radio.

Their presence DOES thwart would-be crooks because said crooks know someone is looking for them, and they know this information is going to be sent to those who can do something about it. It's harder to ultimately get away with shit. I guarantee you that several of those scantron test questions are hypotheticals that all have "do nothing but report" as the correct answer. As ambiguous as some situations might seem in retrospect, or even at the time, they open the firm up to lawsuits.

Want to know something else that's kind of fucked up? When I was in the military, if the local Iraqis started beating the ever-loving shit out of each other there was nothing we could do either. In Rwanda, the UN sat by and watched genocide unfold. A focus on non-aggression tends to result in these kinds of situations. The only way to 'fix' this is to legally protect individuals - even those working in some sort of official capacity - from termination/prosecution/lawsuits in these types of situations.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
KevinCow said:
Yes, a girl came to them and said, "I'm about to get jumped, please help me," and the right thing to do was to let her get jumped and make sure the attackers get in trouble, as opposed to preventing the attack from happening at all.

Wait, no, nevermind. That's not the right thing to do by any moral standard outside of "fuck everyone who is not me."
if you're looking for an endorsement of vigilantism, you wont get one from me.
 

Momo

Banned
alerting all of my friends in Seattle of this D:

smh @ the guards, there is your job, then there is just being a decent human being
 

slit

Member
idahoblue said:
Meh, easy to say when you don't stand to lose your job and your ability to feed your kids. I know it sucks, but that is what the litigation happy society gets us. In lots of jobs, that which is not your exact role, is prohibited.
No actually it's easy to say that when you know that's what you would do. There is no way I would just sit and let some poor teenage girl get her head bashed in while I just looked on with my thumb up my ass. In the end if it meant my job then so be it, I'd rather be unemployed than worthless.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
.GqueB. said:
An odd example but yes if that same 15 yr old girl handed her a note that said "hand over the money or I'll kill everyone in here" then yea the teller has to fork it over.

The example you gave would have the armed guard on her ass in a second and the teller wouldnt have an opportunity to give her the cash.

Actually I didn't give the example, the King's County sheriff did. And you misstated the example, because you added "kill everyone in here," which could conceivably be different to the extent it suggests the girl had a bomb. In this situation, of course, no reasonable person would think the girl had a bomb or any other means of doing significant harm to three adult men. So the analogy is a terrible one, which was my point.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Dude Abides said:
Actually I didn't give the example, the King's County sheriff did. And you misstated the example, because you added "kill everyone in here," which could conceivably be different to the extent it suggests the girl had a bomb. In this situation, of course, no reasonable person would think the girl had a bomb or any other means of doing significant harm to three adult men. So the analogy is a terrible one, which was my point.
'i have a knife' would be all a girl would have to say to get all the money she asks for.
No, the teller does not need to actually see a weapon. actually 'this is a robbery' written on a note is sufficient.

no you've never worked in a bank or a security job, we can tell.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Pandaman said:
'i have a knife' would be all a girl would have to say to get all the money she asks for.
No, the teller does not need to actually see a weapon.

no you've never worked in a bank or a security job, we can tell.

I'm very impressed with your assertion. I'm sure you're quite familiar with all security practices at all banks everywhere. Of course, the Sergeant didn't mention a knife, this girl didn't threaten anyone with a knife, and so your analogy fails too. See what else you can come up with. I'm sure you'll hit on something that isn't completely stupid eventually.
 

KevinCow

Banned
Pandaman said:
if you're looking for an endorsement of vigilantism, you wont get one from me.

Vigilantism? Really? Stepping in when you see something that is clearly wrong and within your power to stop isn't vigilantism, it's basic fucking human decency.

Where does the "well it's not my problem so I'll ignore it" mindset end for you? Seeing a 5-year-old getting beaten up? Seeing a 5-year-old getting molested? Seeing a murder about to take place? If your answer remains, "No, I would not intervene in any of these situations even if it was completely within my power to do so," then I'm sorry, you're a completely immoral asshole.
 

Dead Man

Member
slit said:
No actually it's easy to say that when you know that's what you would do. There is no way I would just sit and let some poor teenage girl get her head bashed in while I just looked on with my thumb up my ass. In the end if it meant my job then so be it, I'd rather be unemployed than worthless.
Heroes. Every person is one. That's why nothing bad ever happens to people.

Fucking hell. It sucks she got beat, and I really wish it hadn't happened. I wish also that security guards were not low paid workers with no authority whatsoever. I wish that people were like you say you are. I wish that the bystander effect didn't exist. I wish the cops had escorted her to the bus. I wish she would not have just gotten beat the next day anyway. I wish security guards were employed for peoples security, not a businesses property. I wish plenty of things, but that doesn't change the facts.
 

.GqueB.

Banned
slit said:
No actually it's easy to say that when you know that's what you would do. There is no way I would just sit and let some poor teenage girl get her head bashed in while I just looked on with my thumb up my ass. In the end if it meant my job then so be it, I'd rather be unemployed than worthless.
But what if as a result of your desire to not be worthless in that instant, you lose your job and become worthless to the people you are supposed to be supporting with that job? The 15 yr old girl gets to keep her ipod but now your child is forced to walk around covered in his own feces because you cant afford pampers. Then he starves to death and your left with nothing but 'Kudos' and a 15yr old girl that probably didnt even thank you.

Im just playing devils advocate here. And I personally wouldnt have jumped in as a by stander either. In my neighborhood, if youre getting your face kicked in then you probably did something to deserve it. Its rather presumptuous of you to assume that the girl on the floor was the protagonist. She couldve spat in that girls face a moment before and got her ass kicked as a result. Who knows.

Point is, dont be a hero if youre not even sure youre being the hero.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Dude Abides said:
I'm very impressed with your assertion. I'm sure you're quite familiar with all security practices at all banks everywhere. Of course, the Sergeant didn't mention a knife, this girl didn't threaten anyone with a knife, and so your analogy fails too. See what else you can come up with. I'm sure you'll hit on something that isn't completely stupid eventually.
its a fact, take it or leave it.

I have no stock in your ignorance.
 

.GqueB.

Banned
Dude Abides said:
Actually I didn't give the example, the King's County sheriff did. And you misstated the example, because you added "kill everyone in here," which could conceivably be different to the extent it suggests the girl had a bomb. In this situation, of course, no reasonable person would think the girl had a bomb or any other means of doing significant harm to three adult men. So the analogy is a terrible one, which was my point.
I didnt misstate anything. I stated an example that would get her the money then I stated that your example wouldnt turn out so well for the girl for the reasons you just stated. Youre absolutely right for the most part. I was just saying that in some cases that 15 yr old girl would get the money she asked for.

I dont even know why you responded the way you did to be honest.
 

KevinCow

Banned
.GqueB. said:
In my neighborhood, if youre getting your face kicked in then you probably did something to deserve it. Its rather presumptuous of you to assume that the girl on the floor was the protagonist. She couldve spat in that girls face a moment before and got her ass kicked as a result. Who knows.

Point is, dont be a hero if youre not even sure youre being the hero.

So, in your mind, it would be perfectly acceptable for them to kick her face in if she'd spat on them. You sure sound like an educated and civilized individual!
 

KevinCow

Banned
-COOLIO- said:
apart from the security guys, why didn't any bystanders step in?

Because they're also assholes who like to live by Pandaman's "NOT MY PROBLEM SO WHY SHOULD I CARE" philosophy.
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
.GqueB. said:
In my neighborhood, if youre getting your face kicked in then you probably did something to deserve it.
In my neighborhood, if you're getting your face kicked in then you're in danger of losing an eye, major brain functions, or your life.
 

slit

Member
.GqueB. said:
But what if as a result of your desire to not be worthless in that instant, you lose your job and become worthless to the people you are supposed to be supporting with that job? The 15 yr old girl gets to keep her ipod but now your child is forced to walk around covered in his own feces because you cant afford pampers. Then he starves to death and your left with nothing but 'Kudos' and a 15yr old girl that probably didn't even thank you.

I'm just playing devils advocate here. And I personally wouldn't have jumped in as a by stander either. In my neighborhood, if you're getting your face kicked in then you probably did something to deserve it. Its rather presumptuous of you to assume that the girl on the floor was the protagonist. She could've spat in that girls face a moment before and got her ass kicked as a result. Who knows.

Point is, didn't be a hero if you're not even sure you're being the hero.
If I suddenly lost my job my child would not all of a sudden have to walk around in feces. Most people should plan their life a little better than that and if you are so devoted to your family you would do anything to prevent that from happening. Your job at the local mall shouldn't be the only thing that keeps your entire world in alignment and if it does then you're simply not resourceful enough and your children would probably be better off in state custody anyway.

If I see someone in distress, I help. If everyone followed your logic nobody should help anybody because who knows why they're in the predicament they're in. If someone is being raped should I just sit there because maybe she was teasing her rapist and therefore deserves the assault?
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
KevinCow said:
Vigilantism? Really? Stepping in when you see something that is clearly wrong and within your power to stop isn't vigilantism, it's basic fucking human decency.

Where does the "well it's not my problem so I'll ignore it" mindset end for you? Seeing a 5-year-old getting beaten up? Seeing a 5-year-old getting molested? Seeing a murder about to take place? If your answer remains, "No, I would not intervene in any of these situations even if it was completely within my power to do so," then I'm sorry, you're a completely immoral asshole.
your mistake is convoluting 'doing the right thing' with 'ignoring it'. ignoring it would be to stick your hands in your pockets, walk away and tell your wife you had a quiet uneventful day. Doing the right thing was to ensure that the criminals were caught. they are not the same thing.

Dude Abides said:
Oh, do tell us all about your decades of experience working bank security, bouncing at clubs, and driving Brink's trucks, my 21-year-old college student friend.
sure thing, I was hired on to a bar at age 17, worked there for about a year and a half, technically illegally as i was underage and working past 9 o'clock. after that job i was hired on with G4S which had just bought out securicors armoured car devision, i did not work on the cars but a friend of mine who had an armed guard license did, not much eventful happened but he was pissed when there was that hubub about one of the armed guards being fired. don't recall her name, but Hamilton's a small city so it'd be easy to look up. anyway i spent about a month running between niagra, Hamilton and st. catherines general hospitals before doing a short gig at... ah fuck i forget the name, but its a fiberglass mine just outside hamilton airport. GSC or CSC or something. anyway the supervisor on site recommended be over to Hamilton specialty bar which had just gone out of business. I spent the rest of my time there, supervising the abandoned steelworks mill out of the scale-house and later a small shack by the transformers. it was a sweet gig but we always had thieves or drunken kids breaking in, they were easily scared off though. nothing messy.

anyway, IIRC us steal bought out the bar and i lost my position to a more senior officer so i quit and worked a night shift at a toys r us for awhile, nothing really relevant here. nowadays i work part-time as a bouncer at the college bar after the regular college security close up shop. [save for two officers at the front desks]

banking knowledge comes primarily from the fact that both my mother and grandmother are former branch managers, one of which currently works at a central accounting unit in auditing.

is that sufficient?

believe it or not, not all of us get by as 21 year old college students on our parents dime, my little man child.
 
L00P said:
Those kids must have known how useless those security guards were.

And the bystanders didn't do anything probably because they expect the guards to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. There are like fucking four of them RIGHT NEXT to the girls fighting
Yep and yep.

The girl probably would've had a better chance of getting help, had there been no guards in sight. Diffusion of responsibilty has an even greater effect, when there are persons around who others expect to intervene.

KevinCow said:
Yes, a girl came to them and said, "I'm about to get jumped, please help me," and the right thing to do was to let her get jumped and make sure the attackers get in trouble, as opposed to preventing the attack from happening at all.

Wait, no, nevermind. That's not the right thing to do by any moral standard outside of "fuck everyone who is not me."
Now, here's an angle I didn't see covered, yet. So, it's been established that the guards weren't allowed to intervene in the beating. But, when the girl came to them for help before the attacks even commenced, could the guards have just brought her into some security booth or office, so she could call someone to pick her up, or something?

Also, fuck the cops who blew her off in the first place! People are going on and on about the (moral) obligations of the security guards, but the very persons who are trained and SWORN to protect and to serve, didn't do jack shit but direct her to the nearest public transportation. (All assuming the article is factually correct)
 

slit

Member
idahoblue said:
Heroes. Every person is one. That's why nothing bad ever happens to people.

Fucking hell. It sucks she got beat, and I really wish it hadn't happened. I wish also that security guards were not low paid workers with no authority whatsoever. I wish that people were like you say you are. I wish that the bystander effect didn't exist. I wish the cops had escorted her to the bus. I wish she would not have just gotten beat the next day anyway. I wish security guards were employed for peoples security, not a businesses property. I wish plenty of things, but that doesn't change the facts.

What exactly is your point? That bad things happen no matter what? no shit. However, the fact that bad things happen doesn't mean I should live my life with my head buried in the sand. All of those facts you listed are ones I as an individual have no control over. I can however try my best to help a situation that is staring at me in the face. I'm damn sure not going to apologize for not having a hive mentality and do what everyone else does.
 

I_D

Member
After working in a store for so long, I can kinda see where the security guards are coming from. There's a possibility that they could be sued for intervening, for example, so they decided to stick to their policy.

That being said, also after working in a store for so long, they piss me off. I've personally intervened in similar altercations literally inside my store and in the parking lot, even though it's against policy, and no punishment came my way. I might have more relaxed bosses, but I'm sure just about anybody would agree intervening would be the right thing to do, and the guards would have avoided punishment.
 

Flek

Banned
what a bullshit…those guys 2 grown up man vs 1 atacking girl could have solved the "problem" jut with ackting agressive (without doint anything though - just showing off) 100%

fuck them - they have no moral at all - EVERY normal person would have helped the girl. At least every man.
 

jorma

is now taking requests
Two Seattle police officers noticed the escalating situation and kicked the group out of the Macy's, then brought the girl and her friend to another exit, the victim said. She reported that she asked the officers for an escort to the bus tunnel, just below the department store, but the officers refused.

"Had these officers known what was to transpire, they probably would have paid for a cab for this victim to be taken safely to her home
, but they didn't know. They broke up a couple of disturbances and provided the victim an opportunity to leave the area via bus," said Sgt. Sean Whitcomb, a Seattle police spokesman.

This is so bullshit. He might just as well have said "had we known, we would have bought her a villa in malibu and flown her there in a private jet".
 
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