Good news: literally nothing in the past 5 pages affects you. This stuff is only relevant for competitive battling.
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SPOILERS Pokemon Sun/Moon Begins to leak on 4Chan
- Thread starter Charlie0108
- Start date
Good news: literally nothing in the past 5 pages affects you. This stuff is only relevant for competitive battling.
Otakumegane
Member
It's going to be a primary threat in the pre-bank meta for sure.
I do want a Pre-Bank Tourney on GAF once Sun/Moon comes out. Be fun to mess around with the regional dex without worrying about perfect mons from other gens entering the scene. So let me be clear here though.
No way to reset EVs at all in this gen? Making perfect mons is going to be a bitchhhhhh.
Neoleo2143
Member
Pity about the EV training. For all the Strides in made in the Main Story's content, it's a shame that they couldn't also Match XY's superb multiplayer Offering. It's so frustratingly close yet so far away.
Thank God for PkHex however. I generally don't like "Hacking" but Pokemon's Hacking usually never breaks stat caps so it's not really cheating in a reasonable sense. Plus with QR codes, it's still going to be pretty easy to spread around legal teams for casuals and everyone to play with. I wonder how Drayano's gonna make ths game stupid hard this time around though, Gamefreak tossed him and other modders a bunch of toys in this game.
Thank God for PkHex however. I generally don't like "Hacking" but Pokemon's Hacking usually never breaks stat caps so it's not really cheating in a reasonable sense. Plus with QR codes, it's still going to be pretty easy to spread around legal teams for casuals and everyone to play with. I wonder how Drayano's gonna make ths game stupid hard this time around though, Gamefreak tossed him and other modders a bunch of toys in this game.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
And to believe, we had something really great going on with horde battles, but they're gone now because we're working with a very inflexible game engine.
We all thought that the transition gap to getting ready for competitive was closing, but now it actually got worse.
Neoleo2143
Member
Which is why I can't wait for Pokemon on Switch. They can finally not have to deal with the absurd constraints of a handheld and just design the game how they like.
PreyingShark
Member
We appear to have it figured out now but the dream's dead. Goddammit.
Have fun grinding on a level
62
While it sucks that horde battles are gone, it feels like people are exaggerating the difference between it and the new mechanic.
At the very least we should have the berries and there will probably be another method.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
are there any Pokemon Refresh vids?
Also if people still doubt that trainer models are a mistake
Also if people still doubt that trainer models are a mistake
Neoleo2143
Member
PkHex it is then. It's settled.
KLatin Scelus
Member
So it seems training as a whole is a lot more of a hassle this generation.
Really hoping they at least give us some way to grind up to level 100 quickly.
These are things that GameFreak should always remember in each game.
That being said, I'm still hyped as hell for this game, and I'm extremely happy Celesteela is in Moon version.
And yet, A-Exeggutor towers over everything else...ugh.
Really hoping they at least give us some way to grind up to level 100 quickly.
These are things that GameFreak should always remember in each game.
That being said, I'm still hyped as hell for this game, and I'm extremely happy Celesteela is in Moon version.
are there any Pokemon Refresh vids?
Also if people still doubt that trainer models are a mistake
And yet, A-Exeggutor towers over everything else...ugh.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Heh, remember when people were optimistic about SM encouraging not to hack because of usefulness on getting perfect mons?
I don't know why anyone would think that. Hacking will always be easier, unless the person decides to rely on rentals.
MrCookiepants
Member
are there any Pokemon Refresh vids?
Also if people still doubt that trainer models are a mistake
So a cool addition is a mistake because it looks dumb when battling a few of the 800+ Pokemon?
I can't believe how petty and dramatic much of this community is.
Neoleo2143
Member
I had a minor suspicion that EVs would be somehow screwed up in the back of my head. I never really voiced that worry though. I've never minded Pokemon's "hacking" since I seldom if ever run into actual Cheaters that explicitly break the constraints of the game. It's an overblown issue in general when it comes to pokemon because it doesn't really hurt people. This is why I want gamefreak to simply cut the fat and give us the battle simulator and ability to set pokemon and move legality. It would solve literally everything.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
It's a mistake because it most likely is responsible for killing off horde battles and triple/rotation.
And it is questionable that somehow they can't scale this but they can with Exeggutor.
Let me explain the difference from experience.
Hordes: Going from 0 to 252 is as easy as using Sweet Scent and one-shotting every pokemon on the field at once with a field-wide move 5 times and your choice of vitamins, wings or a 6th fight for the last two points (if vitamin, that must be done first).
Call for Help: Going from 0 to 252 requires first finding the Pokemon you're going to farm. Use an adrenaline orb. Now weaken this pokemon. That's 2 turns to get set up. Now hope it calls for help, and hope the call succeeds. If it doesn't succeed, do something to waste the turn so as to not kill the one thing that's alive. If it does succeed, KO one of them and return to waiting for another successful call. 25 times (26th is the one that was doing the summoning).
Calls for help can easily fail half the time, and they don't necessarily happen every turn.
Just now I was doing a chain as an experiment and only half the calls succeeded, AND I went through 40 false swipes wasting turns (many while also paralyzed so that's more turns) to get 24 calls, 12 successful summons.
You're probably better off not using chains and instead going back to just running around for encounters to destroy.
I'm going to do some more testing with the call for help system and the rate at which things happen, using a different Pokemon, just to be sure though.
LincolnTunnel
Member
Do we know if we should be writing off the Festival Plaza for EVs? A maxed out Join Avenue in B2W2 let you increase EVs by as much as 64 with one purchase from the Dojo. Do we know what the max is for places in Festival Plaza?
WrenchNinja
Member
Call for help fails?
I understand the technical reasons for not having horde battles. But they should have made an equivalent.
I was never big on the competitive scene till gen 6 because I found the whole process of building pokemon enormously slow, boring and tedious. Hell I only ev trained 3 Pokemon in Gen 3 so I could deal with the Battle Tower, cause I couldn't find the energy to deal with this monotonous mechanic. To see them moving backwards like this is just infuriating.
Extra infuriating is even with bank up in January, and me being able to send battle ready pokemon, they won't count for competition because they're not alola bred.
I understand the technical reasons for not having horde battles. But they should have made an equivalent.
I was never big on the competitive scene till gen 6 because I found the whole process of building pokemon enormously slow, boring and tedious. Hell I only ev trained 3 Pokemon in Gen 3 so I could deal with the Battle Tower, cause I couldn't find the energy to deal with this monotonous mechanic. To see them moving backwards like this is just infuriating.
Extra infuriating is even with bank up in January, and me being able to send battle ready pokemon, they won't count for competition because they're not alola bred.
I will admit, I don't have all the possible data because it's hard to do much with Festival Plaza right now. I do not know the max rank of shops, however I don't even know if they rank up like in Join Avenue. They have star ranks, but I dunno if those are static or if they can be increased. I don't believe anything has pointed to that happening. Which would mean you may be stuck with whatever rank the shop was to begin with.
All I can say for certain is with what little info I do have, it's not very good. But that could change. There may even be better EV stalls in general than the two I've had access to, even ignoring rank.
Though honestly, a 64 EV purchase once a day would still be pretty shitty imo.
Okay yikes. Thats not even a decent replacement then.
LincolnTunnel
Member
It wouldn't be great, but if it works like Join Avenue, you might be able to get around it by having multiples of shops. In Join Avenue you could have at least 4 Cafes and 4 Dojos at once, which could let you get a fair amount done in one day.
I hope we're missing something and that Pelago ev training stuff is actually better than it seems... Small ev boosts in one stat on 15 minutes is terrible when you could have a fully ev trained Pokemon on about the same time.
I'm really glad that they introduced Hyper Training and made stuff like Event Pokemon, Legendary etc easier to train now, but it seems we'll return to Gen V ev training methods now... Such a huge step back.
I'm really glad that they introduced Hyper Training and made stuff like Event Pokemon, Legendary etc easier to train now, but it seems we'll return to Gen V ev training methods now... Such a huge step back.
Otakumegane
Member
I mean IV breeding was always the more annoying o the two so I'm glad that we don't have to worry about that anymore.
Compared to Gen 6 it may take less time to make perfect mons as a result.
Compared to Gen 6 it may take less time to make perfect mons as a result.
A graphical addition made to make the game look better/cooler actually make things look silly/dumb! Not to mention this addition was probably the reason for killing a cool gameplay feature that helped a lot in training Pokemons... Yea, how petty!
Okay, so as I said previously, I did another test regarding chaining with the Call for Help mechanic. The previous test I mentioned wasn't intended for this, and was done on a less common Pokemon. For this test, I used a simple Caterpie on Route 1.
It took me 32 turns to get 26 KOs (enough to max EVs in a stat, HP in this case, with power items + pokerus), with one of those turns being spent on using an Adrenaline Orb.
This is much less bad than the previously mentioned example, though still not fun. It is, however, faster and more streamlined than having to run around hunting encounters. Assuming we have access to at least one pokemon for each stat that has this success rate it should at least be bearable. Though many will likely want to supplement this with vitamins nonetheless.
I'm fairly certain you can make use of multiple stalls, yes. However you can only have 7 stalls at a time, and while most of the stalls I currently have are in my opinion crap, there may be some desirable ones. Festival Plaza is tricky and something I very much want to explore more when the game properly goes live.
Fairly certain nothing's being missed in regards to Poke Pelago, unless the level 3 EV island gives more than 3 EVs per session, what I've already said on that subject is the end of that. It's the Plaza that's somewhat up in the air.
Unfortunately, since you have to be level 100 to Hyper Train, and it costs bottle caps, I can't actually say how great this is either lol. I'm still looking for what efficient methods there are for leveling up but I can't say it's looking super promising... And at this point I've only obtained 1 Bottle Cap, I've not yet found a reliable source but I'll admit I haven't been searching hard just yet as there's still so much for me to check out.
It took me 32 turns to get 26 KOs (enough to max EVs in a stat, HP in this case, with power items + pokerus), with one of those turns being spent on using an Adrenaline Orb.
This is much less bad than the previously mentioned example, though still not fun. It is, however, faster and more streamlined than having to run around hunting encounters. Assuming we have access to at least one pokemon for each stat that has this success rate it should at least be bearable. Though many will likely want to supplement this with vitamins nonetheless.
I'm fairly certain you can make use of multiple stalls, yes. However you can only have 7 stalls at a time, and while most of the stalls I currently have are in my opinion crap, there may be some desirable ones. Festival Plaza is tricky and something I very much want to explore more when the game properly goes live.
Fairly certain nothing's being missed in regards to Poke Pelago, unless the level 3 EV island gives more than 3 EVs per session, what I've already said on that subject is the end of that. It's the Plaza that's somewhat up in the air.
Unfortunately, since you have to be level 100 to Hyper Train, and it costs bottle caps, I can't actually say how great this is either lol. I'm still looking for what efficient methods there are for leveling up but I can't say it's looking super promising... And at this point I've only obtained 1 Bottle Cap, I've not yet found a reliable source but I'll admit I haven't been searching hard just yet as there's still so much for me to check out.
Alright I've decided on my Sun/Moon team.
Greninja
Venusaur
Gengar
Clefable
Garchomp
Heracross
$40 well spent.
From the director of the worst remake that removed one of its signature features comes Pokémon Sun and Moon.
Greninja
Venusaur
Gengar
Clefable
Garchomp
Heracross
$40 well spent.
You gotta get them to level 100. A HUNDRED. And you can't grind up a Ditto and breed, you gotta do it the Gen 1 way by grinding level 60 Pokémon to infinity without O-Powers.
From the director of the worst remake that removed one of its signature features comes Pokémon Sun and Moon.
KLatin Scelus
Member
Aw shit.
I'm going to have to grind for hundreds of those caps for when I can transfer my Pokemon over.
The Shadow Knight
Member
Dammit Game Freak.
Knowing them there might be an ability that makes call for help chaining more efficient, but I won't hold my breath.
I missed that. That sounds, kinda alright.
It still seems terribly short-sighted of them to not make the Pokepelago training actually useful.
How did I become Boss Doggie in that quote lol?...
Please read my more recent post on that topic, it's not as bad but it's still a bit of a slog.
Better than having to run around for encounters, but still on the opposite end of the spectrum compared to hordes.
Edit: There is no ability for that as far as I'm aware, though, lol. But the success rate seems very high for common stuff like Caterpie that would likely be used for EV training.
So for the call for Pokemon system are their certain pokemon that have a guarantee to call after using the orb and getting them low? Like how their used to be Hordes that always showed up for that one stat.
Edit: nvm you just answered lol. So basically we can Ev train off a common mon to get what we need. Slower but eh i can do that.
KLatin Scelus
Member
Damn it, I'm tired!
Starwolf_UK
Member
The EV down berries should still be around (but given all the cock ups we've seen so far you never know when Gamefreak will throw) and there is something in *groan* Festival plaza:
"It makes a Pokémon much more friendly, but it lowers the base HP stat a lot."
"A secret menu item. It makes a Pokémon much more friendly, but it reduces the base HP to zero."
Well secret implies it is rare
Don't worry; Festival Plaza is here to help *screams*:
"A hearty meal for a Pokémon at Lv. 89 or lower. It raises the Pokémons level by nine."
"A big bento box. It raises the level of a Pokémon at Lv. 79 or lower by five."
So what do you do for level 98+? Rare candy I guess.
Apparently it is like 7 spaces and you can only use a given thing ones per day. Also you might be able to get 252 EVs:
"Playing in it raises the Pokémons base Speed stat."
"Playing in it raises the Pokémons base Speed stat."
"Playing in it raises the Pokémons base Speed stat a lot."
"Playing in it raises the Pokémons base Speed stat quite a lot."
"Playing in it raises the Pokémons base Speed stat to its max."
So the once a day thing. Apparently you can try an attraction in a passerby/summoned person once per day so basically stock up on people with the maxed EV training facility and whatever one gets level ups? Not too different except for using an FP currency which can probably only be obtained in Festival Plaza *faints*.
You can do Pelago while your are sleeping
Basically EV training just turned into progress quest (or some other incremental/idle game; in those games stats accumulate offline so they become checking in once in a while, investing in stuff and logging out).
It depends on how many you need to do. Hyper Training requires level 100 and the bottle caps both of which are time consuming and ultimately dependant on festival plaza so is not a free lunch either. Plus the more you neglect IVs from breeding the more you have to use Hyper training. Hyper training is still likely the way to go for legendaries though (especially as no capture O-power means catching Pokemon is actually going to be hard again).
It might just be easier to do what people did in Gen VI (prior to bank); Take the baby Pokemon* with their guaranteed 3 perfect IVs (...I assume this is unchanged) or get guaranteed 3 perfect IVs from chaining calls for help** (if you want HA you'll do this anyway) and obtain several of these and just breed them until you have 5 IV and try to pivot towards Pokemon in multiple egg groups as to have high IV breeding stock in all egg groups.
An example would be Bonsly > Sudowoodo is mineral group only. Snorunt is mineral/fairy. From fairy group there are species with access to Field, grass and Water 1 etc...
Apparently there is a way to hatch eggs via Poke Pelago so it'kk bve interesting to see how long that takes (seeing how long the EVs take there I expect it to go to bed with soem eggs in there and they might be half done).
The bad thing about IV breeding now is with no O-powers hatching times have basically doubled, no bike means you have to Hold B for whatever you do and no D-pad means you might have to pay attention. If festival plaza (if I say it three times a row does it appear?) allows egg hatching then you've got a loop that you can go to any time from anywhere.
*-If incense is gone (which I doubt since there seems to be text for an incense salesman) be careful which Pokemon you use as you would have to evolve your breeding stock to use them (I'm getting flashbakcs of how annoying breeding Pikachu was). If incense is still present, only do this for things like Bonsly and not Pichu (so you can skip the baby form).
**-I assume this will cap at 3 IVs. Pokeradar chains and Dexnav in Gen VI both capped at guaranteed 3 IVs.
I'll answer this some anyway just to get the information I know out there regarding this mechanic. I do not claim to be an expert on the topic, though, so there are likely things I don't understand.
First off, from what I've seen every Pokemon you'll normally encounter in the wild can call for help when it's weakened. Adrenaline Orbs increase the frequency of calls and last the entire battle.
Most Pokemon will call more of their species. There are some exceptions, however. The biggest exception is babies. Baby Pokemon tend to be capable of calling for the evolved form. An Elekid can call in Electabuzz, for example. In some areas, Carbink might end up calling in a Sableye (who will then proceed to attack the Carbink because yummy gems).
Happiny and Chansey appear to be directly linked to babies. I'm under the impression you won't encounter either of these through a normal encounter, but pretty much any baby Pokemon has a chance to summon one of them, depending on where you are. (Riolu in the postgame call Chansey, for example, while you'll usually have Happiny).
Happiny do not appear to call for help, so I'm assuming Chansey behave the same way. This means a couple of things... Firstly, if you're chaining an HA Happiny/Chansey, you'll need to KO any that spawn without the HA, or you'll break your chain because it won't call for more. You'll need to hope the other Pokemon summons another in later. Secondly, it means you can't farm level 50+ Chansey through this mechanic for experience.....
Common, weak Pokemon seem more likely to call for help and to succeed. My previous test with the meh results was related to Munchlax, while the Caterpie test was far better in regards to call and success rates.
Pokemon from the Island Scan mechanic are, as far as I'm aware, incapable of calling for help. This means unless Island Scan Pokemon can naturally have their HA, we may not be able to get them with their HA due to an inability to chain.
I think that about sums up my current knowledge of the mechanic.
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Edit: In response to the above post, I dunno why I didn't look to the text dumps to check for information regarding the potential of the Plaza. The fact there's a shop that can boost a stat to max is very nice even if it's once a day. Question is how hard will it be to get said shop.
I can say with absolute certainly the EV reducing berries are around and still reduce by 10 points, as per an earlier post of mine.
Those level up meals will also be a big deal unless we stumble upon something good to farm for EXP besides the E4...
Edit2: Also Incense is still around, though strangely they have varying prices ranging from 2k to 11k instead of the standard 9.6k now lol. I haven't actually tested breeding a pokemon that normally uses incense for babies though...
Sounds like there is a lot more to test in reguards to this. Thanks for doing the legwork!
you guys need to chill, the games not even out and you're already decrying competitive viability.
maybe give it a week at least :lol
Oh something else to throw out there in regards to the call for help mechanic. When you look at the wild encounter dumps, you'll notice in each table there are 8 "slots" yeah? From what I can tell, Slot 1 is what you can actually encounter in the grass and slots 2-8 relate to the Call for Help mechanic.
In this example, you'll see that things are all neat among the slots except in Elekid's position where slots 2-8 have a mixture of Elekid, Electabuzz and Chansey.
So, while Chansey and Electabuzz are in this table, and the pokedex will tell you that you can find them here... I'm fairly certain you will never run into either of them from running around in the grass, and will instead have to rely on Elekid calling for help.
In this example, you'll see that things are all neat among the slots except in Elekid's position where slots 2-8 have a mixture of Elekid, Electabuzz and Chansey.
So, while Chansey and Electabuzz are in this table, and the pokedex will tell you that you can find them here... I'm fairly certain you will never run into either of them from running around in the grass, and will instead have to rely on Elekid calling for help.
I've already ranked this game below Pokémon Pinball Ruby and Sapphire.
Can someone remind me why the fuck this game is coming in Europe on 11 days?
I think I could stand 5 days, but the leak happened more than two weeks before the release... I can't believe that they managed to screw this up so badly.
I hope stores will break the street release and we'll get the game a bit sooner...
I think I could stand 5 days, but the leak happened more than two weeks before the release... I can't believe that they managed to screw this up so badly.
I hope stores will break the street release and we'll get the game a bit sooner...
Are you sure? This definitely wasnt in X and Y, I know that for a fact. ORAS had it, but then again it was also in the originals. When I say rematching trainers, I mean something kinda like a vs seeker so we dont have fight the same trainers in one area for the post game. I would be livid if game freak did a bunch to improve the battle system and then take 2 steps backwards in availability.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
And I don't even give a monkeys about the competitive side, am I okay?
The new Pokemon are kind of bad for me though. Unova and even Kalos had loads of interesting new lines, but a lot of these are just... Yikes. The Ultra Beasts are quite clearly trying to be something different design wise, but I still cant see them on my team. Lots of single stage Pokemon that don't feel like complete concepts, and as I've expressed elsewhere the Alola form concept is just totally half-baked. Some awesome subversions of designs with Marowak and Exceggutor, then... Whatever Dugtrio and Muk are.
There's enough decent Pokemon from prior gens in the Dex, but do I really want to be trudging through a brand new Pokemon game with monsters I've used so many times before? Though actually my favourite game of all time is Pokemon Gold where you basically did that... Hm.
GSC was first, because of the Pokegear. NPCs would call you and re-challenge you. HGSS retained this.
RSE had the Trainer's Eyes feature, which returned in ORAS.
FRLG had the Vs Seeker.
DPPt only had the various once a day kind of things.
B2W2 did have breeders that reset but.... other than that it was basically daily style stuff, and facilities like Black Tower/White Treehollow.
XY, like DPPt just had daily stuff and stuff like restaurants and the chateau.
Edit: As for S&M, I actually don't think I've seen a way to rematch normal trainers.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
the most popular theory is that a European store broke the release back in XY so it has always been late
Icelandic_Jazz
Member
I've always wanted to pull off a Binding Band / Infestation set with Shuckle, but it looks like Toxapex can finally pull it off.
Toxapex @ Binding Band
Regenerator
Infestation
Baneful Bunker
Recover
Substitute / Toxic Spikes
Seriously dangerous. Trap your opponent, then threaten them with either a protect that'll poison them or a substitute. Stay in and recover or switch out and recover.
It definitely doesn't need Binding Band (it already has huge OU potential) but I'm glad stall has more tools this gen.
Toxapex @ Binding Band
Regenerator
Infestation
Baneful Bunker
Recover
Substitute / Toxic Spikes
Seriously dangerous. Trap your opponent, then threaten them with either a protect that'll poison them or a substitute. Stay in and recover or switch out and recover.
It definitely doesn't need Binding Band (it already has huge OU potential) but I'm glad stall has more tools this gen.
DPPt had the Vs Seeker too.
Oh did it? I totally forgot then lol.
With that, Gens 2-4 had proper rematching of normal trainers and 5-7, with the exception of ORAS, seem to not.
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