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Cabbagehead · Jan 21, 2017

iHaunter said:
This is no bueno. Development is taking way too long.

If they go at this snails pace, we'll be luck to get 3.3 by the end of this YEAR let alone 4.0 anytime soon.

I just hope that once SQ42 is done, they'll put EVERYONE on the PU before working on Episode II.

Are you kidding?

Do you not understand or comprehend the scale and scope of this thing? that's never been done before like this?

Furthermore what made you think that 3.3 was going to be released this year? that's funny. It would be surprising to even see 3.1 at the beginning of the next year. Unless 3.0 releases earlier and is in a better state than predicted, thus speeding up the process of the next update to follow. Even before that though the change's 3.0 will bring to the game is HUGE like foundation of the game big. Meaning the amount/kind of information they need to gather is going to be very important and no doubt the feedback will be varied (item 2.0, careers, planets, more complex Ai and trading will be online) and that will no doubt keep them busy for a bit.

(baring any missteps or big bugs or server/networking hiccups.)

Of course this where having three other studios helps. While all that information from 3.0 is being either fixed, prioritized and or categorized. The next update should already be in motion in some form.

Frankly speaking. The one or two percent of the speaking public in relation to this game on any given day (positive or negative). Really shouldn't be surprised by how long the development of a game like this is taking (Single player/MMO) and if they are then they weren't prepared for the realities of a crowd funded project funded well past it's goal as dictated by the community at large.

This is not a regular situation.

Zabojnik · Jan 21, 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyF8RHM1OCg

iHaunter · Jan 21, 2017

Cabbagehead said:
Are you kidding?

Do you not understand or comprehend the scale and scope of this thing? that's never been done before like this?

Furthermore what made you think that 3.3 was going to be released this year? that's funny. It would be surprising to even see 3.1 at the beginning of the next year. Unless 3.0 releases earlier and is in a better state than predicted, thus speeding up the process of the next update to follow. Even before that though the change's 3.0 will bring to the game is HUGE like foundation of the game big. Meaning the amount/kind of information they need to gather is going to be very important and no doubt the feedback will be varied (item 2.0, careers, planets, more complex Ai and trading will be online) and that will no doubt keep them busy for a bit.

(baring any missteps or big bugs or server/networking hiccups.)

Of course this where having three other studios helps. While all that information from 3.0 is being either fixed, prioritized and or categorized. The next update should already be in motion in some form.

Frankly speaking. The one or two percent of the speaking public in relation to this game on any given day (positive or negative). Really shouldn't be surprised by how long the development of a game like this is taking (Single player/MMO) and if they are then they weren't prepared for the realities of a crowd funded project funded well past it's goal as dictated by the community at large.

This is not a regular situation.

Literally at this rate 4.0 will be out by 2019. Are you okay with that?

Because that's about 6-8% of the game...Not even close to finishing. O.O

Agremont · Jan 21, 2017

iHaunter said:
Literally at this rate 4.0 will be out by 2019. Are you okay with that?

Because that's about 6-8% of the game...Not even close to finishing. O.O

It almost seems like some people are more in it for the journey than anything else.

iHaunter · Jan 21, 2017

Agremont said:
It almost seems like some people are more in it for the journey than anything else.

I was for the first 4 years haha.

Been a backer since the Kickstarter. It's not like I'm condemning CIG, but it's getting a bit scary with the pace here.

Maybe once they finish SQ42 the development process will move a bit quicker. I don't like patch 2.6.2 coming into play though. Hope it doesn't go passed that.

Alas I will wait, just a bit more surprised than anything, considering we saw 3.0 at GamesCon so long ago.

Dreams-Visions · Jan 21, 2017

chifanpoe said:
Xi'An and Vanduul Language, now we can go to 11 on nerd factor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b6tWxM_d0o&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=0BZppotU2mI-6

It's really cool they took the time to do this. I look forward to seeing people try to learn it should the game do well and become a really big thing. I know there are lots of people that can speak Klingon, but Star Trek developed a global culture and became a true phenomenon. Whether this game can get that kind of following is anyone's guess.

HowZatOZ · Jan 21, 2017

Australian servers were confirmed today as well for 2.6.2, very keen for that. I still think I'll wait until the game is at a more substantial offering before I fully jump in but good to hear local server support is coming.

atpbx · Jan 21, 2017

Let's just get the shit posting out the way today so the usual suspects can save their keyboards:

No it's not finished yet.
Yes it's raised a lot of money.
Yes we know you won't be buying till it's released.
Yes we know you think things could have been done better.
Yes we know you also spend time camping on either the SA or ED threads that spend all day shitting on the game and you find that gives your life purpose.

And so, on with the rest of the thread.

In regard to one key statement that Sean Tracy made yesterday:

"We are creating content content at a far greater rate than we can test it", it's coming.

SmartBase · Jan 21, 2017

atpbx said:
Let's just get the shit posting out the way today so the usual suspects can save their keyboards:

No it's not finished yet.
Yes it's raised a lot of money.
Yes we know you won't be buying till it's released.
Yes we know you think things could have been done better.
Yes we know you also spend time camping on either the SA or ED threads that spend all day shitting on the game and you find that gives your life purpose.

And so, on with the rest of the thread.

In regard to one key statement that Sean Tracy made yesterday:

"We are creating content content at a far greater rate than we can test it"

This is amusingly defensive, thanks for the chuckle.

Hakkelus · Jan 21, 2017

I think the final release is going to be years from now. I honestly think 2020 could be realistic. I'm sorry I can't be more optimistic, but we've got a long road ahead of us. It's like having sex. It's a painstaking and arduous task that seems to go on and on forever, and just when you think things are going your way, nothing happens.

Dictator93 · Jan 21, 2017

I wonder if these hair styles were made with the old CE hair shading model or the newer stuff they were planning on adding in.

Zabojnik · Jan 21, 2017

Hair looks great. But does it flow in zero-g? Someone's got to be asking the tough questions.

whalleywhat · Jan 21, 2017

Hakkelus said:
I think the final release is going to be years from now. I honestly think 2020 could be realistic. I'm sorry I can't be more optimistic, but we've got a long road ahead of us. It's like having sex. It's a painstaking and arduous task that seems to go on and on forever, and just when you think things are going your way, nothing happens.

Mhmmm.

elyetis · Jan 21, 2017

Cabbagehead said:
Furthermore what made you think that 3.3 was going to be released this year? that's funny.

I think you should ask Chris Roberts, he is the one who not so long ago estimated the 3.0 for 2016 then 2 to 3 month for the subsequent patch ( hard to say if he only meant for 3.1-3.2 and 3.3 or if he also meant for 4.0 ).

But it's true that people should know better than to listen to what he say when it comes to roadmap. But as always let's not act as if people made those crazy expectation out of nowhere, CR/CIG are the one who keep giving at one point or another, estimate which they miss by a LY, again and again.

Hakkelus said:
I think the final release is going to be years from now. I honestly think 2020 could be realistic. I'm sorry I can't be more optimistic, but we've got a long road ahead of us. It's like having sex. It's a painstaking and arduous task that seems to go on and on forever, and just when you think things are going your way, nothing happens.

Same here, quoting myself from 2 weeks ago :

elyetis said:
We don't really know when it comes to the single player/SQ42 part. It could be released this year... maybe.
But the mmo part will take more than a year, just based on the last estimates given to us by Chris Roberts the next 5 patch ( from 3.0 to 4.0 ) will need 2-3 month between each of them. That alone put us at best to Q4 2017 or Q1 2018 ( but there will be delay just as always ).
At that point we will be at patch 4.0, which introduce travel to multiple star system. It is likely that at this point the game will still need at the very least a year of content creation and polishing.
Even if people like to say that content creation will get faster and faster as the tool get ready, I still doubt they can make enough content not to feel pretty barebone for a release earlier than 2020 ( and even then I have my doubt it would be the initale promise of 100 star system now that they also need to work the planetary aspect ).

Pomerlaw · Jan 21, 2017

atpbx said:
Let's just get the shit posting out the way today so the usual suspects can save their keyboards:

No it's not finished yet.
Yes it's raised a lot of money.
Yes we know you won't be buying till it's released.
Yes we know you think things could have been done better.
Yes we know you also spend time camping on either the SA or ED threads that spend all day shitting on the game and you find that gives your life purpose.

And so, on with the rest of the thread.

Are you sure you ain't forgetting anything? I'm a bit scared to post now

inkls · Jan 21, 2017

Zabojnik said:
Hair looks great. But does it flow in zero-g? Someone's got to be asking the tough questions.

Will it be visible through a helmet?

iHaunter · Jan 21, 2017

New faces and hair are definitely welcome.

Cabbagehead · Jan 21, 2017

elyetis said:
I think you should ask Chris Roberts, he is the one who not so long ago estimated the 3.0 for 2016 then 2 to 3 month for the subsequent patch ( hard to say if he only meant for 3.1-3.2 and 3.3 or if he also meant for 4.0 ).

But it's true that people should know better than to listen to what he say when it comes to roadmap. But as always let's not act as if people made those crazy expectation out of nowhere, CR/CIG are the one who keep giving at one point or another, estimate which they miss by a LY, again and again.

Same here, quoting myself from 2 weeks ago :

He estimated. Which is the key word here and i think it's important to remember the realities of estimations in relation to game development. Meaning it's best to take estimations with a grain of salt (especially from Chris) because i'm sure the developers at CIG do as well. As it's more of a "it would be great" and not a for sure thing. In either case it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Like lets imagine no one said anything about dates and or the estimation of something coming out? people would be freaking out something major about that and at that point we're talking about unreasonable expectations mixed with folks just being plain unreasonable.

I mean you guys mention the release of something being "finished" in 2020 but we're talking about Star Citizen, a MMO that will have continuous updates. This is not single player game that turns gold and it's done, it's like any other new MMO coming out of alpha or beta it doesn't end at 4.0. So lets take a step back...once we hit 3.0 -all things considered- it should be far more robust in comparison to 2.6. In which case most people won't care week after week about the next update once 3.0 is out for a nice handful of months.

Especially while they're exploring a much larger game space and landing on full scale planets and messing around with new mechanics. Furthermore you kind of dismiss the impact of better tools but they really do effect game development speed aside from just general developer fatigue, bug smashing, and code reworking/programming. So the sooner that stuff gets streamlined the better it will be for content creation and the production process. It's something CIG talks about all the time and gave clear examples of; it's the difference between something that took 2 months previously, now only taking 2 to 3 weeks.

Now if it takes another two years for 3.1 to come out (which is unlikely, given how important it is to the core of the game early on) or Squadron 42 for that matter. That would be a cause for concern. In either case i can count on my fingers how many developers would allow their working in progress game to be in the hands of this many people, this intimately involved, this early.

iHaunter · Jan 22, 2017

Cabbagehead said:
He estimated. Which is the key word here and i think it's important to remember the realities of estimations in relation to game development. Meaning it's best to take estimations with a grain of salt (especially from Chris) because i'm sure the developers at CIG do as well. As it's more of a "it would be great" and not a for sure thing. In either case it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Like lets imagine no one said anything about dates and or the estimation of something coming out? people would be freaking out something major about that and at that point we're talking about unreasonable expectations mixed with folks just being plain unreasonable.

I mean you guys mention the release of something being "finished" in 2020 but we're talking about Star Citizen, a MMO that will have continuous updates. This is not single player game that turns gold and it's done, it's like any other new MMO coming out of alpha or beta it doesn't end at 4.0. So lets take a step back...once we hit 3.0 -all things considered- it should be far more robust in comparison to 2.6. In which case most people won't care week after week about the next update once 3.0 is out for a nice handful of months.

Especially while they're exploring a much larger game space and landing on full scale planets and messing around with new mechanics. Furthermore you kind of dismiss the impact of better tools but they really do effect game development speed aside from just general developer fatigue, bug smashing, and code reworking/programming. So the sooner that stuff gets streamlined the better it will be for content creation and the production process. It's something CIG talks about all the time and gave clear examples of; it's the difference between something that took 2 months previously, now only taking 2 to 3 weeks.

Now if it takes another two years for 3.1 to come out (which is unlikely, given how important it is to the core of the game early on) or Squadron 42 for that matter. That would be a cause for concern. In either case i can count on my fingers how many developers would allow their working in progress game to be in the hands of this many people, this intimately involved, this early.

You simply cannot use that "The game will have continuing development" argument in this case. There needs to be a SOLID base.

This is not early, this is the 5th year of development...Many games are completed in this time. I'm not saying they can't do it, they obviously had 3.0 back at GamesCon and we'll definitely get a much better version of 3.0 than what we've seen. But you simply must hold them accountable.

If money stops flowing in, they already stated they only have enough to finish SQ42. People aren't going to be spending money on this game forever. This is coming from someone whose $880 in. There's no proof SQ42 is good enough to bring in enough money to finish the universe either considering we haven't seen a single ounce of it.

Obviously a lot of their development time has been going towards SQ42, but you can't make those kinds of excuses for them. It's 2017 and we're still VERY far from 3.0.

Cabbagehead · Jan 22, 2017

iHaunter said:
You simply cannot use that "The game will have continuing development" argument in this case. There needs to be a SOLID base.

This is not early, this is the 5th year of development...Many games are completed in this time. I'm not saying they can't do it, they obviously had 3.0 back at GamesCon and we'll definitely get a much better version of 3.0 than what we've seen. But you simply must hold them accountable.

If money stops flowing in, they already stated they only have enough to finish SQ42. People aren't going to be spending money on this game forever. This is coming from someone whose $880 in. There's no proof SQ42 is good enough to bring in enough money to finish the universe either considering we haven't seen a single ounce of it.

Obviously a lot of their development time has been going towards SQ42, but you can't make those kinds of excuses for them. It's 2017 and we're still VERY far from 3.0.

Here's what's not connecting...the games you speak of aren't two games being worked on simultaneous (for the most part) and aren't as complex on average, so of course they get finished in five years and that type of output is usually from established studio's that usually has a template or a style. But in truth even some of those projects have been in development far longer then they would/will admit to the public. It's just in this case you get the see what really goes down. So no it's not the same only because you don't start the way CIG was founded and when and expect something to be feature complete given the facts of their own situation. Fact being Star Citizen is a MMO it's not a single player game, so development won't stop even after 4.0. The only "compete" aspects of it will be the underlying mechanics that hold it together, the foundation that folks will be playing against or with needs to be solid. The rest is content creation.

and rather or not 3.0 is VERY far away or not is up to CIG/Test groups in the coming months. Plus it's still VERY early 2017.

So no these aren't excuses these's are the simple realities of the situation no matter how much you don't want them to be. Furthermore those five years is far more like three years. The first two years they barely had a studio or a office (they first started working out of a single suburban home or their own homes) and they outsourced a lot more then they do now (hence the previous SM mishap/delay). I mean given the ambitious nature of this project and scale? them still having 161 developers (in who knows what area's) spread out all over the world and not in one place, would not have worked in their favor.

In 2015 and 2016 is when the numbers matched the scale of the game and experience (and engine refactoring) for that matter.

iHaunter · Jan 22, 2017

Cabbagehead said:
Here's what's not connecting...the games you speak of aren't two games being worked on simultaneous (for the most part) and aren't as complex on average, so of course they get finished in five years and that type of output is usually from established studio's that usually has a template or a style. But in truth even some of those projects have been in development far longer then they would/will admit to the public. It's just in this case you get the see what really goes down. So no it's not the same only because you don't start the way CIG was founded and when and expect something to be feature complete given the facts of their own situation. Fact being Star Citizen is a MMO it's not a single player game, so development won't stop even after 4.0. The only "compete" aspects of it will be the underlying mechanics that hold it together, the foundation that folks will be playing against or with needs to be solid. The rest is content creation.

and rather or not 3.0 is VERY far away or not is up to CIG/Test groups in the coming months. Plus it's still VERY early 2017.

So no these aren't excuses these's are the simple realities of the situation no matter how much you don't want them to be. Furthermore those five years is far more like three years. The first two years they barely had a studio or a office (they first started working out of a single suburban home or their own homes) and they outsourced a lot more then they do now (hence the previous SM mishap/delay). I mean given the ambitious nature of this project and scale? them still having 161 developers (in who knows what area's) spread out all over the world and not in one place, would not have worked in their favor.

In 2015 and 2016 is when the numbers matched the scale of the game and experience (and engine refactoring) for that matter.

Let me be perfectly clear, I will be absolutely ecstatic to be wrong about 3.0 as I am looking forward to it. I just hope it's not a mid-year release.

I'm well aware of the scale, difficulty, etc. of Star Citizen. Which is why I want it to succeed.

~Cross~ · Jan 22, 2017

iHaunter said:
Let me be perfectly clear, I will be absolutely ecstatic to be wrong about 3.0 as I am looking forward to it. I just hope it's not a mid-year release.

I'm well aware of the scale, difficulty, etc. of Star Citizen. Which is why I want it to succeed.

What will be the sort of tipping point for you on this game? If 3.0 comes out during the middle of the year? If its lacking features promised initially? If its horribly unstable and buggy? If it takes them the rest of the year to get to 3.1? If development of the PU gets sidelined to have every available body try to get SQ42 out this year?

Ive seen you get more and more "concerned" since they started to miss their deadlines and outright cancelling showings near the end of the year. This hasn't the first time its happen, hell, its whats been happening since the project started. The road is certain, once the seed of doubt burrows into your faith the only fruit it'll bare is disappointment

And a refund

iHaunter · Jan 22, 2017

~Cross~ said:
What will be the sort of tipping point for you on this game? If 3.0 comes out during the middle of the year? If its lacking features promised initially? If its horribly unstable and buggy? If it takes them the rest of the year to get to 3.1? If development of the PU gets sidelined to have every available body try to get SQ42 out this year?

Ive seen you get more and more "concerned" since they started to miss their deadlines and outright cancelling showings near the end of the year. This hasn't the first time its happen, hell, its whats been happening since the project started. The road is certain, once the seed of doubt borrows into your faith the only fruit it'll bare is disappointment

And a refund

Hard to say, it's true, I'm getting more and more concerned over time.

I think I will be done if 3.3 doesn't hit this year.

mercenar1e · Jan 22, 2017

iHaunter said:
Hard to say, it's true, I'm getting more and more concerned over time.

I think I will be done if 3.3 doesn't hit this year.

you weren't concerned when Star Marine, Squadron 42, Nyx Landing Zone, Update 2.6 (early state, planned features scrapped and pushed into future updates) and Update 3.0 missed its schedules? 3.3 will not be out this year lol i don't even think Squadron 42 will completely release either.. i feel it will be split into chapters.

iHaunter · Jan 22, 2017

mercenar1e said:
you weren't concerned when Star Marine, Squadron 42, Nyx Landing Zone, Update 2.6 (early state, planned features scrapped and pushed into future updates) and Update 3.0 missed its schedules? 3.3 will not be out this year lol i don't even think Squadron 42 will completely release either.. i feel it will be split into chapters.

I don't think that's the case.

SQ42 is already white-boxed. Been for a while, it's fully fleshed out. Seems to be just missing assets if anything. I think once SQ42 gets released SC Universe production might quicken. I doubt they'll split it into chapters since they're doing several episodes already. I believe 3 total.

mercenar1e · Jan 22, 2017

iHaunter said:
I don't think that's the case.

SQ42 is already white-boxed. Been for a while, it's fully fleshed out. Seems to be just missing assets if anything. I think once SQ42 gets released SC Universe production might quicken. I doubt they'll split it into chapters since they're doing several episodes already. I believe 3 total.

and advanced AI right? Chris Roberts initially proposed chapters. ill be surprised if they manage to release the full version this year and so would CR

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5paz23/gamestar_star_citizen_preview_part_2_summary/

”This year we will finish," says a quote from Roberts cited by the publication. However, the project head paused and added ”probably" to his statement.

Gamestar asks when does C.R. personally want S42 to release. C.R.: "2017, but not early this year".

if the next CIG event is scheduled for the summer and 3.0 isn't out by then.. you'll know how progress is moving on 3.3 lol

iHaunter · Jan 22, 2017

mercenar1e said:
and advanced AI right? Chris Roberts initially proposed chapters. ill be surprised if they manage to release the full version this year and so would CR

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5paz23/gamestar_star_citizen_preview_part_2_summary/

if the next CIG event is scheduled for the summer and 3.0 isn't out by then.. you'll know how progress is moving on 3.3 lol

It's really hard to say what progress is held back by 3.0 though.

Don't forget they're not JUST working on 3.0. Asset team for ships I'm sure are in full swing for others ships from at least 3.1 and 3.2. That's how I see it. Different studios work on different things.

tioslash · Jan 22, 2017

iHaunter said:
I think I will be done if 3.3 doesn't hit this year.

Honestly, I think it is very unlikely that 3.3 will be out this year. I would be surprised if we get past 3.1 by the end of 2017.

SnowTeeth · Jan 23, 2017

Yeah it's possible that SQ42 won't even make it in 2017, and while we will get 3.0, 3.3 may be unlikely.

Even so....so what? The game being outright canceled is not going to happen. So why would another delay be the tipping point? It's progressing. Slowly sure, but it'll be finished. Getting angry at the length of time it is taking to make this game seems extremely childish to me. You know the scope of it.

You'll get your toys eventually.

~Cross~ · Jan 23, 2017

Assuming infinite resources and endless development is certainly the way to make videogames.

SnowTeeth · Jan 23, 2017

Tools are still being developed but will be complete soon enough. No, I don't know when, but it isn't going to be another 10 years. SQ42 will be done in around a years time. SC 4.0 will probably hit in 2018. Money, somehow, still comes rolling in.

It's a video game, not some experimental space program. It's not impossible.

Outrun · Jan 23, 2017

SnowTeeth said:
Yeah it's possible that SQ42 won't even make it in 2017, and while we will get 3.0, 3.3 may be unlikely.

Even so....so what? The game being outright canceled is not going to happen. So why would another delay be the tipping point? It's progressing. Slowly sure, but it'll be finished. Getting angry at the length of time it is taking to make this game seems extremely childish to me. You know the scope of it.

You'll get your toys eventually.

I think the problem is that Chris Roberts and CIG don't seem to know the scope of it...

When your estimates are continuously wrong, it is hard to have faith in the project.

SnowTeeth · Jan 23, 2017

I get the concern over the under-estimates and the resulting loss of faith I really do, but that's what happens when you have a company run by mere humans and not perfect well-oiled machines. It was never going to be a flawless journey. New technology needed to be developed. A new company built. Unfortunately things haven't progressed as fast as some would like....but pitchforks ain't the answer.

Regarding the scope, that has been locked down for quite some time now so I don't know what you mean by that. There's a roadmap that outlines what the game will add in the upcoming patches and stretch goals haven't been added in years.

Outrun · Jan 23, 2017

SnowTeeth said:
I get the concern over the under-estimates and the resulting loss of faith I really do, but that's what happens when you have a company run by mere humans and not perfect well-oiled machines. It was never going to be a flawless journey. New technology needed to be developed. A new company built. Unfortunately things haven't progressed as fast as some would like....but pitchforks ain't the answer.

Regarding the scope, that has been locked down for quite some time now so I don't know what you mean by that. There's a roadmap that outlines what the game will add in the upcoming patches and stretch goals haven't been added in years.

Hopefully, they can deliver in the next couple of years.

SnowTeeth · Jan 23, 2017

Outrun said:
Hopefully, they can deliver in the next couple of years.

Here's hoping.

Spuck-uk · Jan 23, 2017

SnowTeeth said:
Even so....so what? The game being outright canceled is not going to happen. So why would another delay be the tipping point? It's progressing. Slowly sure, but it'll be finished. Getting angry at the length of time it is taking to make this game seems extremely childish to me. You know the scope of it.

You'll get your toys eventually.

Actually..it IS possible it gets cancelled, but they can probably run through to 2020 on development with what they have in the bank.

Whether that will even be enough time is a different question.

Zabojnik · Jan 23, 2017

Everything will be fine. We're all going to make it.

Outrun · Jan 23, 2017

Spuck-uk said:
Actually..it IS possible it gets cancelled, but they can probably run through to 2020 on development with what they have in the bank.

Whether that will even be enough time is a different question.

I hope not, but you are right.

CIG could run out of money and partners, and have some entity swoop in and but the IP and release a scaled back game for a quick buck.

I hope not. At this point, I just want SQ42.

elyetis · Jan 23, 2017

Cabbagehead said:
He estimated. Which is the key word here and i think it's important to remember the realities of estimations in relation to game development. Meaning it's best to take estimations with a grain of salt (especially from Chris) because i'm sure the developers at CIG do as well. As it's more of a "it would be great" and not a for sure thing. In either case it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Like lets imagine no one said anything about dates and or the estimation of something coming out? people would be freaking out something major about that and at that point we're talking about unreasonable expectations mixed with folks just being plain unreasonable.

I mean you guys mention the release of something being "finished" in 2020 but we're talking about Star Citizen, a MMO that will have continuous updates. This is not single player game that turns gold and it's done, it's like any other new MMO coming out of alpha or beta it doesn't end at 4.0. So lets take a step back...once we hit 3.0 -all things considered- it should be far more robust in comparison to 2.6. In which case most people won't care week after week about the next update once 3.0 is out for a nice handful of months.

Especially while they're exploring a much larger game space and landing on full scale planets and messing around with new mechanics. Furthermore you kind of dismiss the impact of better tools but they really do effect game development speed aside from just general developer fatigue, bug smashing, and code reworking/programming. So the sooner that stuff gets streamlined the better it will be for content creation and the production process. It's something CIG talks about all the time and gave clear examples of; it's the difference between something that took 2 months previously, now only taking 2 to 3 weeks.

Now if it takes another two years for 3.1 to come out (which is unlikely, given how important it is to the core of the game early on) or Squadron 42 for that matter. That would be a cause for concern. In either case i can count on my fingers how many developers would allow their working in progress game to be in the hands of this many people, this intimately involved, this early.

It's absolutely not a ' it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, except if you think that shared estimates can only continuously be wrong by a large margin or not given. How many years does CR need, to finaly begin to use Scotty Principle, not to impress people by delivering things in advance, just not to be wrong repetitively.
It's even more necessarily when they clearly hate announcing those delay once they know about it, and usually just speak about it once the initial estimate is already there.

Now to be fair I do think last year gave us a huge improvement when it comes to communication, with their schedule-report. Sadly it's limited to the next release only.

Of course getting the tools ready is important, but I've heard of their importance and how 'this year things will get out faster' thanks to them for, probably the past 2 years now. The only aspect where it somewhat feel true, is the ship making process, which had the longest time to get ready, yet it won't even mean that all of them will ready by 4.0 from their own estimates. So other tool getting ready will be important, but I won't expect it to mean, say 4 new star system ready per month once we get there. It will be faster than now.. but it's really not saying much.

I don't think SC being a MMO prevent it from being judged on it's content, at least at it's 'official' release, just like every other mmo. I also think every time a release is delayed it actually increase expectation, at least that people are less forgiving about the product failure if it happen after being delayed. Which imho put the SQ42 presentation in a very hard spot now.

SnowTeeth · Jan 23, 2017

Spuck-uk said:
Actually..it IS possible it gets cancelled, but they can probably run through to 2020 on development with what they have in the bank.

Whether that will even be enough time is a different question.

Funding just hit $142 million.

Also confirmed via the recent PCGames article is that "Around half of all Stretch goals are completed or being worked on". Sure the stretch goals aren't anything overly spectacular, but it just goes to show that they are progressing. Feature creep arguments will never subside though, right?

But by all means, let's all continue to be pessimistic all of the time until we get what we paid for.

mercenar1e · Jan 23, 2017

SnowTeeth said:
Funding just hit $142 million.

Also confirmed via the recent PCGames article is that "Around half of all Stretch goals are completed or being worked on". Sure the stretch goals aren't anything overly spectacular, but it just goes to show that they are progressing. Feature creep arguments will never subside though, right?

But by all means, let's all continue to be pessimistic all of the time until we get what we paid for.

its a minor accomplishment when you actually look at what the stretch goals are. its just ships, skins, studio equipment.

A great deal of them are just about building tools, not even deliverables.
$10M "Build a mocap studio"
$11M "Move Austin team to bigger office"
$12M "Build a professional sound studio"
$22M "Do Facial Capture System"
$41M "Hire Procedural Generation R&D Team"
$50M "Hire Linguist For Alien Language"
And then you get a bunch of skins & art (i.e. not gameplay).
$5.5M "Free Ship Skin"
$9M "Free Class 2 Space Suit"
$15M "Free Digital Upgrade Manual"
$16M "Free Pistol"
$17M "Free Engine Modifier Upgrade"
$19M "Free Fighting Ships PDF Manual"
$42M "Free Explorer-Class MobiGlass"
$43M "Free Omni Role Combat Armor"
$45M "Free Hadesian Artifact"
$48M "Retaliator Commercial"
$52M "Free BB-12 EVA Unit"
$55M "Free Gatling Gun"
$56M "Free Cooler"
$58M "10k UEC"
Other misc stuff that they can claim they've succeeded in:
$16M "Arena Commander"
$25M "Enhanced Alpha"
A shit load of ships that are technically flyable (but that's literally all you can do with most of them).
$2.5M Gladiator
$3.25M Starfarer
$3.75M Retaliator
$23M Scout
$27M Merchantman
$28M Mustang
$30M 890 Jump
$31M Orion
$30M Reclaimer
$33M Carrack
$34M Hull C
$35M Herald
$57M Endeavor
$59M Crucible
$60M Vanguard
$61M Prowler
$62M Starliner
$63M Reliant

staticneuron · Jan 23, 2017

mercenar1e said:
its a minor accomplishment when you actually look at what the stretch goals are.

Which is funny, either the stretch goals are an example of scope creep, or they were minor to begin with. Not sure what you are getting at here. What is your opinion on this?

SnowTeeth · Jan 23, 2017

Point is that the scope hasn't changed since the finalising of the stretch goals, which are all being seen to, yet feature creep augments persist.

RubberJohnny · Jan 23, 2017

I think his point was it's a false metric of completion, people want the gameplay and careers and SQ42. They can complete all the space cactuses for your hangar and be "100% stretch goals completed", but still not have a game that's even 1% of what was promised.

Like it lists the ships as completed even though they don't have the corresponding gameplay for their role.

SnowTeeth said:
Point is that the scope hasn't changed since the finalising of the stretch goals, which are all being seen to, yet feature creep augments persist.

They've literally inflated the scope in the last week with brand new talk of survival mechanics on the roundtable.

They've inflated it so much that Chris says $142 million wouldn't be enough to finish the PU.

mercenar1e · Jan 23, 2017

RubberJohnny said:
I think his point was it's a false metric of completion, people want the gameplay and careers and SQ42. They can complete all the space cactuses for your hangar and be "100% stretch goals completed", but still not have a game that's even 1% of what was promised.

yeah this is what i wanted to convey.

SnowTeeth · Jan 23, 2017

RubberJohnny said:
They've literally inflated the scope in the last week with talk of survival mechanics on the roundtable.

They've inflated it so much that Chris says $142 million wouldn't be enough to finish the PU.

So within the last week they've all of a sudden decided to add survival mechanics? Having planets and animals, plantlife, day/night cycles ect. didn't imply this was already part of the design? Keep trying to look for flaws, you're great at it.

RubberJohnny · Jan 23, 2017

SnowTeeth said:
So within the last week they've all of a sudden decided to add survival mechanics? Having planets and animals, plantlife, day/night cycles ect. didn't imply this was already part of the design? Keep trying to look for flaws, you're great at it.

What logic is this supposed to even be?

"They have oceans on planets, didn't this imply underwater combat, submersibles and trade with the mer-people of Spacelantis?"

Er, no. Development and project management is a bit more nailed down than that.

SnowTeeth · Jan 23, 2017

RubberJohnny said:
What logic is this supposed to even be?

"They have oceans on planets, didn't this imply underwater combat, submersibles and trade with the mer-people of Spacelantis?"

Er, no. Development and project management is a bit more nailed down than that.

You're right I'm shit, but at the same time I don't think survival mechanics were suddenly introduced and decided upon literally just last week, which is what you seem to be implying / working in to your narrative.

staticneuron · Jan 23, 2017

mercenar1e said:
yeah this is what i wanted to convey.

Considering that each role specific ship is scheduled to be playable in the alpha at the same time the role is introduced, it is a disingenuous idea to put forth.

As a reminder..

Snake29 said:

and

Zabojnik said:
Credit goes to the authors, mentioned and not.

iHaunter · Jan 24, 2017

SnowTeeth said:
So within the last week they've all of a sudden decided to add survival mechanics? Having planets and animals, plantlife, day/night cycles ect. didn't imply this was already part of the design? Keep trying to look for flaws, you're great at it.

I think it was planned but never officially announced, I like the idea though.

I'm sure it won't take a large team to work on this really, if they can procedurally design that too, it'd be even better.

Edit: Idris is technically done though. Should be blue IMHO.

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