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What is the worst 2D Metroid game?

beril

Member
What? This is... This opinion is wrong.

No it's pretty much the truth. It fails as remake because it doesn't recapture anything from the original. The mechanics are different, the level design is different, the atmosphere is different and it's not like there is really any story to retell. Super Metroid already had you revisiting many of the areas and bosses from M1 and they're closer to their SM counterparts in Zero Mission.
It has some nice remixes of the soundtrack but that's pretty much it. In all other aspects it feels more like an inferior Super Metroid clone than a Metroid 1 remake.
 

Lothar

Banned
There are no indications of where secret paths are, no logic as to where a path may be, and because the rooms that repeat so often also repeat all of their bombable areas and fake walls, there are many dead end secrets littering the map. A player may discover the same secret path twice in different rooms and give up on trying it in the third room where it actually does lead somewhere.

This is all a good thing. It's a shame more games aren't like this.

This is why I say nostalgia is all that's holding the game up. You could only see the charm in these things if you grew up playing it. If a game came out like this now- no map, endlessly reused backgrounds (with most of the backgrounds that do change just being palette swaps), tons of false start secrets, grinding for health, enemies that hit you during door animations, incredibly primitive controls- it would be regarded as a bad game, even by $10 eshop standards.

I would argue endlessly with those people telling them they're wrong.

I actually don't see much of anything nice being written about it. The few people who like it are are only defending it by brushing obvious faults off by saying "it's no big deal" or "git gud." There's no actual positive argument about the game's quality being made here, just refusals of the complaints.

Lothar said:
I felt like the world in Zero Mission pampered and coddled the player. It made it feel really artificial. The original Metroid's world was harsh and that's the way it should be. A strange alien world should be harsh.

I don't have any problem with rooms and areas looking the same. In fact, I kind of like that. It added to the sense of claustrophobia. Being stuck in similar looking corridors feels much creepier. I like mazes. I like having to try to figure out where to go. I don't like when there's just one obvious way.

This is why I still think the original is one of the greatest games ever made. No other game gives you this sense of claustrophobia. The feeling like you're a rat in a maze in a harsh alien world. No other game gives you this feeling of constantly being lost. It's challenging to explore and makes you feel satisfying when you discover an item or a way out and conquer the harsh world. Zero Mission in comparison feels really boring. You're just on a linear tour bus ride seeing the sights that developer wanted you to see. It doesn't feel satisfying when you find a item because you couldn't have missed it.

This is assuming that you have access to that room and that you have access to that powerup, which would pretty much require you to be near the end of the game... at which point it would be practically no use. Your argument is that grinding for health is no big deal if you just trek across the map to get to find a room where the health grinding is a little better, then travel all the way back... how is that supposed to not be tedious, again?

It's just an example. And before one of the boss fights, one of the few times you need to have full health. Killing Metroids in Tourain is a much better way to get health. Each one you kill gives you either 30 health or 30 missiles. Earlier in the game when you don't have much health to recover, you could use one of those large rooms with the birds that swoop down. They give you large health. You can fill up blocks fast in those rooms. Not that you'd really need to with no bosses around.
 

Nerrel

Member
First off, nearly all the game's secret paths are at floor level:
If you don't think to bomb the wall at every dead, the problem lies with you, not the game.
...
You'll find, on occasion, passages that aren't at floor level, but they're never located higher than a single bomb jump. I hope you figured out to how to bomb jump on your own and didn't expect the game to teach you how to use it to your advantage.
You're phrasing it as if I had a problem finding these things. I didn't. I passed the game just fine. The problem is that it was not fun or rewarding in the slightest to do so. I played it because I started with Super and wanted to know how the series started, and the only satisfaction I got out of the game was "OK, now I know what Metroid 1 was like." It was a chore- one I completed just fine, but that I'll never subject myself to again. Also, you're showing examples of some the most obvious paths in the game, which don't really have much nuance beyond "dead end, better try bombing." You're not really addressing the major problem of repeating dead ends and totally unintuitive secrets, even though you acknowledge that they do exist:
The upper passage seen in this GIF? Not necessary. It's either there to provide an alternate path to more experienced players, or it's a dead. Can't remember which
...
And floors? Don't fucking worry about passages hidden in floors. The only floors that have secret passages in them are at the bottom of vertical shafts. Just plant a row of bombs--boom, boom, boom--and see if any tiles explode. The vast majority of these (which is not many) are in Norfair and at least half of them are dead ends put there just to fuck with you.

It's just like I said; you're brushing these things off without really accepting that they're problems. Finding a path in a game like this is a reward in itself; denying that reward by having the path go nowhere makes the game tedious. It's classical conditioning; one can only find the same dead end path so many times before their enthusiasm starts to wane and they lose interest.

The fact that you can't even remember these things should suggest that it's not very memorable world design. A lot of this game is disposable, with hidden areas serving no purpose and just being remnants of the constant repetition of room data. And it wasn't deliberate; they had to recycle so many elements due to technical limitations. I sincerely doubt that they deliberately chose to put the same dead end secrets in the same repeat rooms over and over. It's just an example of how archaic and primitive the game was, being cobbled together from a few overstretched assets, and here you are praising it as good game design that you want to see more of.

If you like this kind of exploration still, then great, but you should recognize that very few other people do. The overwhelming consensus is that this game is extremely dated. Very few people would recommend playing this for any reason other than historical curiosity.

This is all a good thing. It's a shame more games aren't like this.
...
This is why I still think the original is one of the greatest games ever made. No other game gives you this sense of claustrophobia. The feeling like you're a rat in a maze in a harsh alien world. No other game gives you this feeling of constantly being lost. It's challenging to explore and makes you feel satisfying when you discover an item or a way out and conquer the harsh world. Zero Mission in comparison feels really boring. You're just on a linear tour bus ride seeing the sights that developer wanted you to see. It doesn't feel satisfying when you find a item because you couldn't have missed it.

I can understand this, but it's really just Fusion and Zero Mission that are guilty of the kind of linear control you're talking about (it's the only major criticism those games regularly get). Super Metroid may have been more structured than the original, but it still left you fairly well alone. You still had a lot of leeway to find optional items (spazer, x-ray scope, spring ball) or pass them by altogether. I consider it a huge improvement on the same basic concept.

Super Metroid gives you hints and suggestions about where its secrets are without spoon feeding it to you. If you're paying attention, a crab will briefly scuttle out of a hidden tunnel. The solution for the glass tube in Maridia is foreshadowed by an identical tube that's found broken apart a short distance away. The breakable wall above your ship in Crateria is positioned in just such a way that you'll hit it if you experiment with the shinespark on top of the cliffs nearby. A map station may be provided to you just at the moment you run out of paths to follow, providing you with the knowledge of where new areas are and suggesting where passages you missed may be. There's no beacon on the map, no arrow to follow, no overt direction; if you don't pay attention, you may not even see the blue areas that were added. Like you said, a player may not even go to the map station in the first place and miss it altogether. There's so much nuance and detail in the game that works in the service of your exploration, and rather than feeling like hand holding, it feels like these details are a part of the world. When you find the way forward, there's meaning to it; you often had to observe your surroundings and think to move forward.

I consider that much more rewarding and fun than, say, bombing every wall at every dead end arbitrarily looking for a path forward without any real confidence that there will actually be one there... only to regularly find that this wall is in fact a dead end, or a secret path that leads to absolutely nothing.
 

Theosmeo

Member
I'm playing through all of the Metroid games (some for the first time) and so far, I've enjoyed all of them. I haven't started up Super or Metroid 2 yet. I think it's safe to say that, while great, Metroid Prime 2 is the weakest of the mainline Prime games, and we all know about Other M. So this got me thinking. What's the worst of the 2D games? I'm curious to hear some opinions.

How is it safe too say? It has better environments that one, tighter control than 3, and a much more involving story than either even if it seems like a bleh light vs dark thing at first.

Sure it doesn't teach you its mechanics at all but that's what Prime 1 is. Prime 1 is a tutorial for the test that Echoes is. The difficulty is all fair and their's nothing subtractive about its mechanics(like P3 or other M). It brings new things to the table and relies on the player's ability to survive in this Alien world.

It also has cool multiplayer
 

Rutger

Banned
This is why I still think the original is one of the greatest games ever made. No other game gives you this sense of claustrophobia. The feeling like you're a rat in a maze in a harsh alien world. No other game gives you this feeling of constantly being lost. It's challenging to explore and makes you feel satisfying when you discover an item or a way out and conquer the harsh world. Zero Mission in comparison feels really boring. You're just on a linear tour bus ride seeing the sights that developer wanted you to see. It doesn't feel satisfying when you find a item because you couldn't have missed it.

Those are words I'd used to describe Prime 2. Metroid 1 though? Aside from fighting with some of the game's wonky mechanics, the world is far from harsh, and there's a ton of space to move around in on nearly every screen so I wouldn't call it claustrophobic. But Prime 2 does have by far the best atmosphere in the series, so I guess it's unfair to compare the two.

And calling Zero Mission linear shows that you never even tried to explore on your own.
 
I know it isn't a popular, opinion, but it's Super Metroid. It just wasn't a challenge after Metroid and Metroid II. As superior as the music, graphics, controls, mechanics, world design, level design, enemy and boss design, pacing, and atmosphere were to the first two titles, the utter lack of challenge made the game the least enjoyable of any 2D Metroid to me.

Fusion > Return of Samus > Metroid > Zero Mission > Super
 

Nerrel

Member
I know it isn't a popular, opinion, but it's Super Metroid. It just wasn't a challenge after Metroid and Metroid II. As superior as the music, graphics, controls, mechanics, world design, level design, enemy and boss design, pacing, and atmosphere were to the first two titles, the utter lack of challenge made the game the least enjoyable of any 2D Metroid to me.

Fusion > Return of Samus > Metroid > Zero Mission > Super

I find it odd that you regard the game as superior in every way but hate it just because it's not quite as hard... it's not as if Metroid games are known for an intense challenge. All the things you claim Super is better at are the things that define Metroid. Anyway, you can always intentionally avoid energy tanks if you want to up the difficulty. I do speedruns with 3 tanks sometimes just for the fun of it... you'll definitely have an intense time with Ridley.
 

Menitta

Member
How is it safe too say? It has better environments that one, tighter control than 3, and a much more involving story than either even if it seems like a bleh light vs dark thing at first.

Sure it doesn't teach you its mechanics at all but that's what Prime 1 is. Prime 1 is a tutorial for the test that Echoes is. The difficulty is all fair and their's nothing subtractive about its mechanics(like P3 or other M). It brings new things to the table and relies on the player's ability to survive in this Alien world.

It also has cool multiplayer

Again, the ammo meters really ruined it for me. I haven't played them in a while. I'll have to do that again this summer. I'll do an RTTP on it.
 

flak57

Member
You're phrasing it as if I had a problem finding these things. I didn't. I passed the game just fine. The problem is that it was not fun or rewarding in the slightest to do so. I played it because I started with Super and wanted to know how the series started, and the only satisfaction I got out of the game was "OK, now I know what Metroid 1 was like." It was a chore- one I completed just fine, but that I'll never subject myself to again. Also, you're showing examples of some the most obvious paths in the game, which don't really have much nuance beyond "dead end, better try bombing." You're not really addressing the major problem of repeating dead ends and totally unintuitive secrets, even though you acknowledge that they do exist:
It's just like I said; you're brushing these things off without really accepting that they're problems. Finding a path in a game like this is a reward in itself; denying that reward by having the path go nowhere makes the game tedious. It's classical conditioning; one can only find the same dead end path so many times before their enthusiasm starts to wane and they lose interest.
The fact that you can't even remember these things should suggest that it's not very memorable world design. A lot of this game is disposable, with hidden areas serving no purpose and just being remnants of the constant repetition of room data. And it wasn't deliberate; they had to recycle so many elements due to technical limitations. I sincerely doubt that they deliberately chose to put the same dead end secrets in the same repeat rooms over and over. It's just an example of how archaic and primitive the game was, being cobbled together from a few overstretched assets, and here you are praising it as good game design that you want to see more of.

If you like this kind of exploration still, then great, but you should recognize that very few other people do. The overwhelming consensus is that this game is extremely dated. Very few people would recommend playing this for any reason other than historical curiosity.

I can understand this, but it's really just Fusion and Zero Mission that are guilty of the kind of linear control you're talking about (it's the only major criticism those games regularly get). Super Metroid may have been more structured than the original, but it still left you fairly well alone. You still had a lot of leeway to find optional items (spazer, x-ray scope, spring ball) or pass them by altogether. I consider it a huge improvement on the same basic concept.

Super Metroid gives you hints and suggestions about where its secrets are without spoon feeding it to you. If you're paying attention, a crab will briefly scuttle out of a hidden tunnel. The solution for the glass tube in Maridia is foreshadowed by an identical tube that's found broken apart a short distance away. The breakable wall above your ship in Crateria is positioned in just such a way that you'll hit it if you experiment with the shinespark on top of the cliffs nearby. A map station may be provided to you just at the moment you run out of paths to follow, providing you with the knowledge of where new areas are and suggesting where passages you missed may be. There's no beacon on the map, no arrow to follow, no overt direction; if you don't pay attention, you may not even see the blue areas that were added. Like you said, a player may not even go to the map station in the first place and miss it altogether. There's so much nuance and detail in the game that works in the service of your exploration, and rather than feeling like hand holding, it feels like these details are a part of the world. When you find the way forward, there's meaning to it; you often had to observe your surroundings and think to move forward.

I consider that much more rewarding and fun than, say, bombing every wall at every dead end arbitrarily looking for a path forward without any real confidence that there will actually be one there... only to regularly find that this wall is in fact a dead end, or a secret path that leads to absolutely nothing.

Let me jump into your debate here... you must have played the game a long time ago because your memory is really far off.

1. The "false secret paths" being talked about here aren't at dead ends or anything like that. They are literally just a block or two on the floor of some rooms along the way that can be bombed but don't lead anywhere. They take a few seconds to check and don't require traveling out of the way at all. Here is one -
MsKYGs9.png
There aren't even that many of them really, at least in comparison to the legit ones that litter Norfair. By the way, that pic is the ONLY false path before you can't progress further in Norfair without going through a legit one, so being discouraged from checking makes even less sense.

2. Doesn't that texture scream at you try to bomb it? Since that picture is of the entrance room to Norfair and the first time you see it, it sets a precedent that that type of texture can be bombed to find passages. Now
when you head right you quickly come across an identical looking floor with a secret path in the exact same place (relatively) that leads towards Ridley's hideout. Without that original hint it's the opposite of what you are saying - I would have been less likely to try bombing the other identical looking floor on my first pass through. Should mention the manual shows you that Ridley's hideout is below Norfair if you're thinking that particular passage is pretty obscure. When you explore the bottom floor it shouldn't be too hard to figure out with no other ways down.

2. Metroid 1 does not have any dead ends that do not have power ups or secret passages. None.

3. All secret passages are hinted at in some way, look at a map and point one out to me that isn't. Even the varia suit and screw attack have obscure hints.

4. Not all passages are "bomb dead ends" btw.

5. There are two reasons you made it through Norfair okay without apparently thinking much about what you were doing - 1. The most confusing part of Norfair is optional, I believe only ONE secret passage is actually required (although exploring there is recommended), and 2. Almost every bubble surface that isn't a wall in a vertical shaft or a ceiling/floor in a horizontal shaft has a secret passage in it. So you can safely bomb/shoot every bubble surface in Norfair blindly and make it through without too much trouble.

6. Metroid is more than Norfair, lol. The rest of the game doesn't have many secret passages, and most of those are pretty obvious and optional.

7. Outside the two dungeons which are designed to get the player lost and kill them while they try to find the boss, Metroid has no wasted space. Every path leads somewhere to help you towards the finish.
 
Metroid 2. You can't see anything cause of the tiny screen space, and tge controls are pretty jank.

Given that those are the worst complaints about the game I can throw at it, I'd say the series is pretty damn good.
 
The first one because it's obsolete. There's not such a thing as a bad 2d Metroid game yet.

Unless we're considering Metroid Prime Pinball as such.
Metroid Prime Pinball is a pinball game, not a Metroid game.
And it's a pretty good, if easy, pinball game too.
 

Peterc

Member
no doubt it's other m, because it isn't metroid.

Beside that if we look @ real metroid games, i would say metroid2 for sure.

Metroid 1 is still the best games after super metroid. If people say otherwise, they probably didn't get 100% out of this game.

It was just crazy with all the secrets in it, it feeled like a whole secret world.
I still remember that secret path to get to the first boss (some kind of shortcut), man that was just insane.
Played the game in 1988.


If we are talking about hardcore games, this one beats the hell out of all the games that are released now.

I miss that kind of games with random stuff, like zelda1 walking through walls...
 

cireza

Member
My vote goes to Metroid 2, but it was still a pretty good game.

AM2R is fantastic, everyone should play it.
 
It's just like I said; you're brushing these things off without really accepting that they're problems.

But to me and many other people who grew up with this game, they're not. They weren't a problem then and they aren't a problem now. Hell, I played Super Metroid only a few years after playing the original for the first time, and I *still* preferred the original game. It has nothing to do with nostalgia goggles and everything to do with preferring the design and the mechanics of the original game.

What I find insufferable about you is your insistence that because our tastes don't align with the mainstream we must be in denial. I am not in denial--I just prefer the design of the original, period.

The fact that you can't even remember these things should suggest that it's not very memorable world design.

Or... maybe it suggests that I haven't done a full play through of the game in over five years!

and here you are praising it as good game design that you want to see more of.

Yes.

If you like this kind of exploration still, then great, but you should recognize that very few other people do. The overwhelming consensus is that this game is extremely dated. Very few people would recommend playing this for any reason other than historical curiosity.

And as we all know, you are the arbiter of what people like and don't like and what should be played and shouldn't be played. Piss off.


I consider that much more rewarding and fun than, say, bombing every wall at every dead end arbitrarily looking for a path forward without any real confidence that there will actually be one there... only to regularly find that this wall is in fact a dead end, or a secret path that leads to absolutely nothing.

Why you'd want the passages to be easier to find and always yield something rather nothing is beyond me. Why should all secret paths lead to something? What kind of world just gives you everything on a silver platter? Even fantasy worlds like Hyrule and Zebes must have some small lining of reality running through them, and in the real world most treasure digs turn up absolutely nothing. You should feel a sense of exhilaration when your bombing finally leads to something rather than pout that you wasted a minute or two of your time chasing a false lead earlier.

But hey, to each their own. I can respect the fact that you just don't enjoy that sort of thing--if you can that acknowledge that there are many of us who do, and that the elements you keep calling problematic--not as though it were your opinion, as though it were objectively true--aren't objectively problematic at all.
 

Shifty

Member
Fusion.

It's actually my favourite 2D Metroid, probably because of Nostalgia, but it's too linear and doesn't do the things a Metroid game ought to.
 
1. The "false secret paths" being talked about here aren't at dead ends or anything like that. They are literally just a block or two on the floor of some rooms along the way that can be bombed but don't lead anywhere. They take a few seconds to check and don't require traveling out of the way at all. Here is one -

Thanks. I wanted to use that as an example of the kind of false path I was talking about, but I couldn't be bothered to fire up an emulator. The gifs I used were all recorded from a YouTube play through.

And I've lost all hope in mankind.

Seriously.

I lost all hope in mankind long ago, for the exact same reason. I can hardly think of a more perfectly crafted game.
 

flak57

Member
Thanks. I wanted to use that as an example of the kind of false path I was talking about, but I couldn't be bothered to fire up an emulator. The gifs I used were all recorded from a YouTube play through.

No lie, I ended up playing through the whole damn game today.

My favorite part was at one of the bubble floors at the bottom of a long shaft in Norfair where the devs knew you'd want to bomb the floor to check for passages, so they have one of those fast moving invincible guys going side to side across the floor. Only place in the game where one is down there like that.

No passages there at all so you check 3 times (to be sure) while he whittles your life down. Assholes, lol.
 

Nerrel

Member
But to me and many other people who grew up with this game, they're not. They weren't a problem then and they aren't a problem now.
That's exactly the point. You grew up with it, so you're always going to remember the game fondly. Back then, the problems the game suffered from- repetitive backdrops and enemies, cheap, glitchy hits when going through doors, etc.- were commonplace and wouldn't have been held against the game. A new player today, without the experience of the playing games at that time and seeing the Metroid when it was groundbreaking, is exceptionally unlikely to have the same opinion. Nothing is ever going to change your mind about Metroid because your opinion of it solidified at that time, back when the game was still cutting edge.

What I find insufferable about you is your insistence that because our tastes don't align with the mainstream we must be in denial. I am not in denial--I just prefer the design of the original, period.
My goal here isn't to get you to say "Metroid is a bad game and I'm in denial." I recognize why a lot of people like it, and I think there are legitimate reasons to. What I take issue with is that you won't accept that it's obviously a primitive game that has aged more dramatically compared to what came later. You can still love it for what it is, but the fact that you're not willing to recognize the limitations the game had when they're so overwhelmingly obvious does make me feel like your nostalgia is coloring your opinion of the game, specifically in terms of how it compares to the later entries. You can like it and still admit that time has revealed some shortcomings.

Or... maybe it suggests that I haven't done a full play through of the game in over five years!
I didn't play Super Metroid for a period longer than that while in junior high/high school and I still could have drawn you a map of ever room, every environment, every hidden block. That entire game was etched into my mind after just a few plays.

Here's why:

All of these images are from the same area in Super Metroid- Brinstar, yet each is radically different. In fact, the differences between rooms in Super Metroid are often bigger than the differences between entire sectors in the original Metroid. And the game changes these up so rapidly that you don't really stay in any one setting for more than a room or two; it's almost to the point where I wish they'd repeated rooms a little more, just so I can take more of it in. It makes the world memorable. Even without using the map, it would be far easier to place exactly where you are in the world at any given time just from looking at the screen, because the environments are so distinct and varied and practically no architecture is directly repeated except for the save/energy rooms.

It's a huge difference from the original Metroid, where you'd often feel lost just because everything looks pretty much the same. Your only real sense of direction came from memory.... you have to keep track of what doors you came from and try to navigate through feel, since there were very few landmarks or unique visual cues to help you track your position along the way.

I can imagine that you might respond to that inarguable point by saying "well, I like that kind of exploration better," but to me exploration is only compelling if you have a world worth seeing. In the original game, I felt like I pretty much always knew what I was going to see up ahead- more rooms that looked the same as the one I was in. There wasn't really much joy in seeing the same rooms unfold over and over again.

All of the later games gave you much, much more to see and felt more like real alien worlds in comparison.


And as we all know, you are the arbiter of what people like and don't like and what should be played and shouldn't be played. Piss off.
Calm down. It's a video game. But just read through this thread alone... I don't have to be the "arbiter" of opinion, it's obvious that most people feel this way about the game today.

1. The "false secret paths" being talked about here aren't at dead ends or anything like that. They are literally just a block or two on the floor of some rooms along the way that can be bombed but don't lead anywhere. They take a few seconds to check and don't require traveling out of the way at all. Here is one -

There aren't even that many of them really, at least in comparison to the legit ones that litter Norfair. By the way, that pic is the ONLY false path before you can't progress further in Norfair without going through a legit one, so being discouraged from checking makes even less sense.

2. Metroid 1 does not have any dead ends that do not have power ups or secret passages. None.
I still qualify those false blocks as dead ends. Just because they don't take much time to climb out of doesn't mean that they aren't frustrating non-starters. Pretty much every connecting room in Norfair's bubble areas have the same false blocks in the bottom, and several of them do lead to absolutely nothing.

Also, you're wrong about the dead ends always leading to a powerup or passage. Check the shaft to the left of where you get the ice beam in Brinstar, for instance. Not only is there nothing there, but it's a huge pain in the ass to get out of. That's not rewarding you for exploration; that's punishing you for it.
http://www.nesmaps.com/maps/Metroid/MetroidCompleateMap.png


5. There are two reasons you made it through Norfair okay without apparently thinking much about what you were doing - 1. The most confusing part of Norfair is optional, I believe only ONE secret passage is actually required (although exploring there is recommended), and 2. Almost every bubble surface that isn't a wall in a vertical shaft or a ceiling/floor in a horizontal shaft has a secret passage in it. So you can safely bomb/shoot every bubble surface in Norfair blindly and make it through without too much trouble.

Would a player know this on their first playthrough? Through the eyes of a new player, who is going to have to test and prod this world to find their way forward, don't you see how constantly uncovering little blocks that lead to nothing and having to bomb these same blocks in every room until you find the one that actually leads somewhere might be tedious?
 

Rutger

Banned
This thread got me to start playing Metroid 2 again. It might have one of the worst songs ever put into a video game, but it's far less clunky than Metroid 1.

And with Zero Mission being the best 2D Metroid game, I can't think of any reason to go back to Metroid 1 anytime soon. The first is certainly the worst for me.
 

flak57

Member
I still qualify those false blocks as dead ends.
Dead end in Super Metroid -
xNgMyIL.png

Just because they don't take much time to climb out of doesn't mean that they aren't frustrating non-starters.
I'll give you that in some cases for some people. Though you did leave off the part of my quote that explained how the first instance of that could be looked at as a hint, same for
the one under the first small lava pit behind the ice beam
.
Pretty much every connecting room in Norfair's bubble areas have the same false blocks in the bottom, and several of them do lead to absolutely nothing.
The legit ones outnumber the false ones.
Also, you're wrong about the dead ends always leading to a powerup or passage. Check the shaft to the left of where you get the ice beam in Brinstar, for instance. Not only is there nothing there, but it's a huge pain in the ass to get out of. That's not rewarding you for exploration; that's punishing you for it.
http://www.nesmaps.com/maps/Metroid/MetroidCompleateMap.png
If you are including booby trapped pits, the grand total is now 1. I suppose we can split the hair even further and include the one in Ridley's hideout that lets you see the missile tank on the other side of the wall, and the
extra bit on the top of that shaft in brinstar that is a hint for the varia suit
.
Would a player know this on their first playthrough? Through the eyes of a new player, who is going to have to test and prod this world to find their way forward, don't you see how constantly uncovering little blocks that lead to nothing and having to bomb these same blocks in every room until you find the one that actually leads somewhere might be tedious?
You’re seriously exaggerating, we’re talking less than a minute total gameplay added all up. The crux of your argument was that they were at the end of dead ends, which they are not. Without that it is a weird complaint to focus on. Edit: Actually, it looks like I misread this. I don't think you ever mentioned complete dead end rooms.

By the way, looking at the map it's literally impossible to hit two "dead end secrets" in a row.
 
That's exactly the point. You grew up with it, so you're always going to remember the game fondly. Back then, the problems the game suffered from- repetitive backdrops and enemies, cheap, glitchy hits when going through doors, etc.- were commonplace and wouldn't have been held against the game. A new player today, without the experience of the playing games at that time and seeing the Metroid when it was groundbreaking, is exceptionally unlikely to have the same opinion. Nothing is ever going to change your mind about Metroid because your opinion of it solidified at that time, back when the game was still cutting edge.

Allow me to turn the tables on you, then. The so-called cheap, glitchy hits you refer to are only viewed as such because you view them through the lens of a "new player today". Nothing is ever going to change your mind about Metroid because your opinion of it was solidified at a time when games were easier.

No matter many times you refer to it as an archaic, near-unplayable mess, it is not objectively true. I have as much right to accuse you of forming your view of the game through the filter of your own formative gaming experiences as you have to accuse me of defending it because of nostalgia.

What I take issue with is that you won't accept that it's obviously a primitive game that has aged more dramatically compared to what came later.

Primitive =/= bad. Pac-Man and Donkey Kong are primitive games compared to Pac-Man Championship Edition DX and Super Mario 3D World.

You can like it and still admit that time has revealed some shortcomings.

And you can quit referring to these shortcomings as though they were objectively real, when they are, in fact, subjective to the individual experiencing the game. To preempt you from once again citing nostalgia as the primary contributing factor to my love of Metroid, let me remind you that there are people in this very thread who did not grow up with the game, who discovered it after playing Super Metroid, and still fell in love with it.

I didn't play Super Metroid for a period longer than that while in junior high/high school and I still could have drawn you a map of ever room, every environment, every hidden block. That entire game was etched into my mind after just a few plays.

Here's why:

*snip*

The actual reason why is that unlike the original Metroid, Super Metroid has to be explored all the way through. Whereas Norfair and Ridley and Kraid (if you know the trick to get past lava pit sans bridge) are all optional, I challenge you to name one area in Super Metroid that can be skipped entirely.

Yes, the rooms in Super Metroid are more unique. Your poin being? I didn't remember whether that exact passage was a dead or not because I haven't played it in years. Heck, I didn't even remember where the Ice Beam was before you linked to the map, and I played this game religiously as a child. Unlike most items, the Ice Beam is a necessity to win the game, but that just goes to show how many years it's been since I did a full playthrough of the game and didn't just dick around in Norfair and Ridley's Hideout.

Also, you're wrong about the dead ends always leading to a powerup or passage.

What you said:

A lot of this game is disposable, with hidden areas serving no purpose and just being remnants of the constant repetition of room data.

And it wasn't deliberate; they had to recycleso many elements due to technical limitations. I sincerely doubt that they deliberately chose to put the same dead end secrets in the same repeat rooms over and over.

Versus what you are quoting as an example of a dead end without a powerup are two entirely different things.

Check the shaft to the left of where you get the ice beam in Brinstar, for instance. Not only is there nothing there, but it's a huge pain in the ass to get out of. That's not rewarding you for exploration; that's punishing you for it.
http://www.nesmaps.com/maps/Metroid/MetroidCompleateMap.png


It's called a trap. You were bombing the floors of a cavern and you fell into a deep chasm, because that's the sort of thing that happens--infinitely more so in real life!--when you bomb random floors in a cavern. It is no different from the seemingly inescapable pit in SM where the Dachora teaches you the Shinespark move. You only forgave that because you learned a new move out of it; apparently, it never occurred to you that those kinds of setbacks might occur to an adventurer traversing through deadly caverns on a hostile alien planet.

Would a player know this on their first playthrough? Through the eyes of a new player, who is going to have to test and prod this world to find their way forward, don't you see how constantly uncovering little blocks that lead to nothing and having to bomb these same blocks in every room until you find the one that actually leads somewhere might be tedious?

Metroid was one of the first video games I ever played to completion, and I had little to no experience with games of a similarly unforgiving nature at the time I had first encountered that shaft.

Setting aside the fact that trap shaft in Brinstar is never reused, you better believe I was frustrated when I first fell into that shaft. I felt a sense of accomplishment when I figured out how to escape it, though, and from that point on I just didn't overthink it. I wasn't so concerned with the so-called unfairness of the game's design that I couldn't accept that maybe, just maybe, I should expect bad things to sometimes happen to me when I'm exploring an alien world.

This thread got me to start playing Metroid 2 again. It might have one of the worst songs ever put into a video game,

Okay, I'll bite. Which song?
 

flak57

Member
It's called a trap...

Lol, I side tracked your debate. I thought he just didn't know the game well and was complaining about whole areas that lead to nowhere but a trick path or something.

His actual complaint, at least the degree that he is harping about it, barely makes sense to me but I'm having trouble explaining it.

If you're in the south/south-west part of Norfair where there are multiple fake paths, that means you've already found the shaft that leads pretty much directly to Ridley's hideout. You had to have left that shaft through a secret passage behind a power up to even get to this section of Norfair.

If you're in this area, and a single 2 second to check fake path discourages you from checking any more tiles, which makes absolutely no sense in light of how you got there in the first place (and since as I said it's impossible to hit two fakes in a row), that means you've hit dead ends and there is no where else for you to go down here... so wouldn't you go back to the shaft you already know about, that ends up continuing you through the game?

...and if you AREN'T weirdly discouraged to stop bombing suspicious tiles, pretty much the same scenario repeats a couple times until you've explored everywhere in there - you find a secret passage that leads to a new area, that might have one fake passage and multiple real ones, etc etc. And you can still go back at any time like before.

The only important thing in the area
the screw attack, isn't found by bombing anyway
.
 

Nerrel

Member
Allow me to turn the tables on you, then. The so-called cheap, glitchy hits you refer to are only viewed as such because you view them through the lens of a "new player today". Nothing is ever going to change your mind about Metroid because your opinion of it was solidified at a time when games were easier.
You're arguing that getting hit by enemies when going through doors was a good thing... you're dedicated to this, I'll give you that.

I grew up playing NES and Commodore games, but I missed Metroid when it released. I'm very familiar with how games played back then and how the concept of "challenge" was often very different. Games back then tended to challenge you by making you do very repetitive tasks with very high punishments for failure... the controls were usually clunky and inelegant, the enemy placements were cheap, you'd get hit in mid-jump by enemies that suddenly flew in from off screen... It's almost like the games back then were just daring you to quit fucking playing. That was the challenge- can you put up with this shit long enough to beat the game, or will the game beat you?
I enjoyed them at the time because that was all we had. Looking back, you can say that yes, they're more challenging than modern games, but often in a fairly unreasonable and uninviting way. I consider Metroid to be an example of that. The best thing I can say about it is that Metroid introduced a lot of great ideas that are still carried on today, while a lot of titles from that era don't have much of any relevance now.

The actual reason why is that unlike the original Metroid, Super Metroid has to be explored all the way through. Whereas Norfair and Ridley and Kraid (if you know the trick to get past lava pit sans bridge) are all optional, I challenge you to name one area in Super Metroid that can be skipped entirely.

No... it's memorable because it's much more detailed and varied. Super Metroid is a much larger game, and your argument was that the player has to explore all of it... wouldn't that make the game harder to remember? A larger amount of space to explore- and all of it mandatory- how is that supposed to make the game easier to remember? It's more memorable because the better hardware allowed the developers the freedom to create much more inspired environments.

Also... I know that you must be familiar with sequence breaking. You can skip gigantic portions of Super Metroid, and I'm not talking about glitches. Just using your wall jump and shinespark (tricks the game encourages you to use), you can completely bypass the high jump boots, ice beam, and even the grapple beam and the large portion of Norfair that houses it (including Crocomire). But Super Metroid has so much good content that you shouldn't want to skip any of it. The fact that you can bypass so much of the first game without missing much illustrates my point about the later games having richer worlds.

Yes, the rooms in Super Metroid are more unique. Your poin being?
Come on. You're so close to at least acknowledging this one point. I do think Metroid 1 had a pretty cool look and the visuals were good for its time, but those rooms get repeated so much that it undermines the fun of exploring. Having more variety gives you a better sense that you're really traveling across a planet and making progress. It gives you more to see and rewards you for discovering new areas. It keeps the game fresh and prevents you from getting tired of the scenery. It also gives you landmarks and a better context for your position.

Versus what you are quoting as an example of a dead end without a powerup are two entirely different things.
I think what you're arguing here is that one of those shafts being a trap is proof that the game doesn't repeat the exact same rooms over and over? Because one of those shafts leads to the ice beam and the other to nothing, therefore they're different? I'm trying to meet you halfway here, but... the game obvious repeats elements constantly no matter what, and even in this case, it's the same room aside from the lack of a door.

It is no different from the seemingly inescapable pit in SM where the Dachora teaches you the Shinespark move. You only forgave that because you learned a new move out of it; apparently, it never occurred to you that those kinds of setbacks might occur to an adventurer traversing through deadly caverns on a hostile alien planet.

Finding an area where you learn something powerful and useful is not the same as finding an area where you gain nothing and simply waste your time. Placing an objective at a dead end means it's not a dead end- it's a destination. There are plenty of rooms in Metroid 1 where you find a "dead end" with an alien statue holding a powerup- but no one would call them a dead end in the sense I'm talking about because there's a point to traveling there. If that bottomless pit in Metroid 1 had an alien that taught you some badass new move, then yes, I'd be totally all for it.
Dead end in Super Metroid -
xNgMyIL.png
Not the same thing. If there were hidden blocks that you had to break to get down into that pit, suggesting that you'd uncovered something only to find a dead end, then yes, that would be a good comparison. The room is built for platforming. You zig zag up and down as you traverse it. The pits are the bottom the "zags." It's a not too distant relative of this:
You’re seriously exaggerating, we’re talking less than a minute total gameplay added all up. The crux of your argument was that they were at the end of dead ends, which they are not. Without that it is a weird complaint to focus on. Edit: Actually, it looks like I misread this. I don't think you ever mentioned complete dead end rooms.

My main complaint isn't the dead ends. It's that the repetitive backdrops and lack of memorable landmarks to keep yourself oriented make the exploration pretty boring. The dead ends are just the icing on the cake.
 

105.Will

Member
The original is the only one I can say is bad, but only because it hasn't held up well. There hasn't really been a bad 2d metroid.
 
I find it odd that you regard the game as superior in every way but hate it just because it's not quite as hard... it's not as if Metroid games are known for an intense challenge. All the things you claim Super is better at are the things that define Metroid. Anyway, you can always intentionally avoid energy tanks if you want to up the difficulty. I do speedruns with 3 tanks sometimes just for the fun of it... you'll definitely have an intense time with Ridley.

Overall the Metroid series is quite challenging to me. When you go from the two hardest games in the series to the easiest one, it just did not engage me the way I wanted. Even though it was superior in other regards, my enjoyment was diminished by any semblance of a challenge.

Also, I'm not a fan of making games artificially harder by not using the tools it offers me.
 
You're arguing that getting hit by enemies when going through doors was a good thing... you're dedicated to this, I'll give you that.

I'm not arguing that because that doesn't happen. Enemies aren't placed right outside of doors so that you'd hit them on your way in. You may be hit by a Geega, Zebbo, or Gamet just seconds after entering a room, but never before you had time to react.

but those rooms get repeated so much that it undermines the fun of exploring.

In your opinion. In many people's opinions, even. But for me, exploring Metroid is like trying to find my way out of a labyrinth, and it wouldn't do for the rooms and halls of a labyrinth to look distinct from one another. Others have praised the game for it's claustrophobic feel--where do you suppose that comes from? The game causes you to feel trapped, and I would argue that is as much by design as it is by technical deficiency.

I think what you're arguing here is that one of those shafts being a trap is proof that the game doesn't repeat the exact same rooms over and over?

You were arguing that the reason there are so many dead ends without power-ups is because the game recycles room data. Flak57 disagreed, and I am simply pointing out that the booby trapped shaft isn't an example of room data being recycled but a purposely built trap.

Again, you kept stressing that the dead ends weren't placed there by design. That one clearly was.


Finding an area where you learn something powerful and useful is not the same as finding an area where you gain nothing and simply waste your time. Placing an objective at a dead end means it's not a dead end- it's a destination. There are plenty of rooms in Metroid 1 where you find a "dead end" with an alien statue holding a powerup- but no one would call them a dead end in the sense I'm talking about because there's a point to traveling there. If that bottomless pit in Metroid 1 had an alien that taught you some badass new move, then yes, I'd be totally all for it.

Not the same thing. If there were hidden blocks that you had to break to get down into that pit, suggesting that you'd uncovered something only to find a dead end, then yes, that would be a good comparison. The room is built for platforming. You zig zag up and down as you traverse it. The pits are the bottom the "zags." It's a not too distant relative of this:

First off, that room actually does teach you something if you fall down there after getting the Ice Beam (which you'd have to admit is entirely possible): how to use the Ice Beam to create scalable platforms. That's why the shaft is flooded with Rippers.

Second, thanks for ignoring my main point: that it's an action/adventure game and the occasional trap makes it feel more like a, well, adventure:

It's called a trap. You were bombing the floors of a cavern and you fell into a deep chasm, because that's the sort of thing that happens--infinitely more so in real life!--when you bomb random floors in a cavern. It is no different from the seemingly inescapable pit in SM where the Dachora teaches you the Shinespark move. You only forgave that because you learned a new move out of it; apparently, it never occurred to you that those kinds of setbacks might occur to an adventurer traversing through deadly caverns on a hostile alien planet.

Setting aside the fact that trap shaft in Brinstar is never reused, you better believe I was frustrated when I first fell into that shaft. I felt a sense of accomplishment when I figured out how to escape it, though, and from that point on I just didn't overthink it. I wasn't so concerned with the so-called unfairness of the game's design that I couldn't accept that maybe, just maybe, I should expect bad things to sometimes happen to me when I'm exploring an alien world.

Your problem is that you can't seem view the game outside the lens of so-called modern game design sensibilities. You expect every dead end to result in a Chozo statue and for the game (the word game being used in the most basic literal sense, because for you this doesn't seem to be a world worth allowing yourself to be be immersed in) to reward you always and never waste your time. That's not how the real world works, and that's not how a virtual, hostile alien planet should work.

...So, again:

All of the later games gave you much, much more to see and felt more like real alien worlds in comparison.

My response to this is that because Metroid's Zebes occasionally repeats rooms and sometimes leads you down false paths, it feels less designed than Super Metroid's, and so actually feels more like a real alien world. If I were a spelunker in the real world, I wouldn't expect each cavern to appear to be it's own unique snowflake; how much less should I expect a vast alien underworld, one designed by the game's developers to be hostile and unforgiving, to never be labyrinthian in design?
 

Gilby

Member
Not really on topic, but: I've been making my way through Environment Station Alpha and it is a fantastic Metroid-like. I'm talking maybe Axiom Verge quality, the level design is great (full of secrets and tricky platforming) and the bosses are hard without being bullet sponges. I'm sorry I slept on it this long!
 

flak57

Member
Not the same thing. If there were hidden blocks that you had to break to get down into that pit, suggesting that you'd uncovered something only to find a dead end, then yes, that would be a good comparison. The room is built for platforming. You zig zag up and down as you traverse it. The pits are the bottom the "zags." It's a not too distant relative of this:
Was a snarky response ;) But no, it's at least closer to my comparison than to yours. You can't see the bottom from that platform, you have to travel all the way down and bomb around to verify that nothing is there. After all, if you didn't waste time doing that on the first two, you're probably not going to find the hidden missile at the bottom of the third one.

My main complaint isn't the dead ends. It's that the repetitive backdrops and lack of memorable landmarks to keep yourself oriented make the exploration pretty boring. The dead ends are just the icing on the cake.

Good to reiterate that, because some of your posts made it sound a bit like someone handed you the controller three secret passages deep in an optional part of Norfair and then took it away 10 minutes later, lol. (or that you watched a sensationalist youtube vid)

No problems with not finding the limited tileset fun to explore. Me, I'm fascinated by the worlds devs created with old tech like this and it ignites my imagination.
 

Rutger

Banned
Okay, I'll bite. Which song?

I gotta say, I'm surprised this is what gets someone's attention and not any of my praise for Prime 2, haha.

Well, Music is subjective, so I wasn't too serious with that comment and I'm sure there is something far worse in some game I've never played, but I really do think that this song is all around awful. A bad mark on a series with amazing music.
 

jennetics

Member
Surprised to see the amount of Zero Missions and Fusions topping y'alls lists. Those are by far my favorite ones! Granted, I haven't played 1, 2, or Super so I may be wrong. Either way, I love me my GBA iterations.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
I know that Team Ninja made Metroid had a terrible story, but how was it from a gameplay perspective?
 

Toxi

Banned
I know that Team Ninja made Metroid had a terrible story, but how was it from a gameplay perspective?
If you ignore the painfully linear map design with no room for exploration, obnoxious "cinematic" forced walking sequences, lame power-ups, awkward D-pad movement and motion controls, and shallow repetitive combat... I guess it's okay?
 

Nerrel

Member
I know that Team Ninja made Metroid had a terrible story, but how was it from a gameplay perspective?

It had faster movement that was more faithful to the old games than the first person controls of the Prime games. Unfortunately, the game built around those more traditional Metroid controls wasn't as good as the series is known to be. The environments were pretty bland and repetitive, the music was really flat and forgettable, and the world is full of locking doors that control your exploration and progress tightly, maybe even worse than Fusion did.

I still think it's fun just for the sake of having fast Samus back in a 3D Metroid game, but there's no denying it's weaker than the originals and the Prime games in the areas that really count.
 
I know that Team Ninja made Metroid had a terrible story, but how was it from a gameplay perspective?
Anyone that tells you that it's a good or even "all right" game ignoring the story is a liar. It's a mediocre character action game bogged down by a ton of really strange and bad control and design decisions that pretends to be a Metroid game by looping its linear hallways on themselves a few times to grant the absolute faintest illusion of its level design even remotely resembling Metroid.

It sucks.
 
Don't nobody say you weren't a little scared when you knew you were going into that SA-X fight and the music kicked in.

You Fusion deniers are a crazy bunch.
 
This thread is going about as expected. The people who think Metroid 1/2 are ass vs the ones who think Fusion/zero mission are ass.

And no one dares says Super Metroid.
 

Lothar

Banned

Zero Mission watered the original down and made it for babies. They didn't even trust the player to be able to jump on platforms so they let Samus be able to grab onto them.

Of course they didn't also didn't trust the player to be able to find where to go on their own. They didn't think too much of the player.
 

yyr

Member
Duh, Fusion is the worst. As several in this thread have already pointed out, it's too linear to even be considered on par with any of the others. The action was good, don't get me wrong, it's not like it was a bad game...but it just didn't measure up to the "actual" Metroid games. There was just no element of exploration at all. I just don't understand how anyone could like it more than the others. How is it a Metroid game, when the series is categorized based on action, upgrades and exploration, and one of those factors is missing entirely?

Zero Mission was better, but still felt linear to me, compared to the previous games.

Also, I don't understand the folks saying "ugh, 30 health in Metroid 1." Yeah, it's definitely a sign of the game's age, adding artificial difficulty like many other old NES games. But in practice, you don't NEED to have your energy tanks full all the time. Apart from the two minibosses and the battle in Tourian, there is no reason you need more than 99 health and *maybe* one tank to get past anything in the game. Energy powerups come very frequently. You can do it.
 

Rutger

Banned
Zero Mission watered the original down and made it for babies. They didn't even trust the player to be able to jump on platforms so they let Samus be able to grab onto them.

Of course they didn't also didn't trust the player to be able to find where to go on their own. They didn't think too much of the player.

Hahaha, I never thought I'd see someone say that being able to grab ledges makes the game "watered down for babies".

We were given a new option that helps speed things up, and it's a bad thing?

And the game more than trusted the player to go wherever they want, you don't have to listen to the directions Zero Mission gives, it is a very open game.

Also, I don't understand the folks saying "ugh, 30 health in Metroid 1." Yeah, it's definitely a sign of the game's age, adding artificial difficulty like many other old NES games. But in practice, you don't NEED to have your energy tanks full all the time. Apart from the two minibosses and the battle in Tourian, there is no reason you need more than 99 health and *maybe* one tank to get past anything in the game. Energy powerups come very frequently. You can do it.

The 30 health thing is an annoyance, if that was all, whatever. Clunky things like being able to get hit during the slow door transitions, not being able to shoot ground level enemies in tunnels making us have to wait or slowly bomb them, and the game being so slow in general make me not want to go back to it. I got through it, it really wasn't that hard, just clunky and slow, it's still good game but not nearly as fun as what came after to me.
 
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