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Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia |OT|
- Thread starter Draxal
- Start date
Glass Rebel
Member
Finished on Normal Classic without any deaths on my second try tho. Now let's see what awaits me.
Nachtfalke
Member
I'm usually not a fan of Let's Plays but I really loved his streams for NieR and NieR Automata. (He voiced 9s). He even had some voice actors from NieR Automata on the Stream like Kira Buckland (2B) - with cosplay!
Kyle McCarley did a great job here aswell. Loved his performance as Alm.
So having finally completed FE:Echoes, i'd figured i'd post an updated review.
The Good
The Bad
The Good
- The game has excellent presentation through and through. Fantastic artwork, good U.I and top tier battle animations are just some of the things that Echoes absolutely excels at.
- The core cast stands up with the best that FE has to offer. There's an ecletic mix of cool, cute, funny, sexy, charming and generally fun characters who all feel fully realized. Unlike most FE games, character's are nowhere near as transient, since supports, 3 base conversations and prism memories (which are fantastic) do a great job of making characters feel "existent" for most of the game.
- The game's script is phenomenal. 8-4 outdid themselves with the dialogue, delivering on the classic timey old English that FE is known for, but mixing in some modern flair to make it feel more distinct and memorable. Dialogue is snappy, charming and easy to parse. All of that plus full voice acting; you couldn't ask for a better localization.
- Dungeons were for the most part, a welcome addition. The break up in gameplay was nice, and many of them offered rare items that made exploring them legitimately worthwhile.
- While the story isn't good by any stretch, there are several emotional, triumphant and heartfelt moments in the story. I can nitpick the story all I want, but I can't deny being moved by some of the story scenes.
- Character progression is surprisingly fun, despite the lack of options. Weapon restrictions had the unintended effect of making characters feel more unique in the sense that there weren't many weapons to go around. I only had on Blessed Lance user (Catria), who's terror-slaying made her an absolute staple, the Lightning Blade I gave Gray made him my trump card early on, the Killer Bow turned Leon into a God, etc. Combat skills were great too, with Alm's Double Lions being standout as the most memorable, useful and generally kickass skill in the game.
- Sidequests while simplistic, aided character building and it was smart method of getting you to revisit older locations and dungeons.
- Magic is kickass in Gaiden. Tomes are nice, but each character having their own learnset + unique spells really made mages feel more distinct than ever. Ragnarok Omega is the coolest spell in the series.
- While not quite on the level of Awakening or Fates's OST, Echoes had an incredible OST
- Mila's turnwheel mitigated some serious frustration. Screwing up or getting unlucky no longer resulted in an immediate reset. It's a tad too powerful, but I think keeping it in the series (while limiting it) would be a good idea.
- Leon's homosexuality is fairly well done. He's camp, but the game is pretty upfront about his sexuality, and he comes across as a normal person. He's not a stalker or a sadist, and while irritable, he's generally a decent person. A blatant improvement from Fates in that regard, and it has me feeling optimistic about IS's future handling of LGBT characters.
The Bad
- It should be fairly obvious at this point, but he map design is atrocious. They're uninspired, half-assed, slow (Deserts of Valentia...) and obnoxious. They weren't even fun in a simplistic/grindey way like in Awakening. Just disappointing and bad overall.
- A mediocre second half act. While the 2nd half offers more freedom, the increasingly bad maps, obnoxious enemy encounters and drop in story quality bogged down the experience. It fortunately all comes together in the end, but the 2nd half is definitely less enjoyable than the first.
- For a game that sells itself on strategy, Echoes is hands down the most shallow and least strategic FE game in the franchise. No rescue chains, no side objectives, no pair up, no weapon triangle/reverse weapon triangle, item resources are significantly limited and terrain placements are haphazard and dumb. There's no real way to mix up gameplay either, since every map is a slugfest. It doesn't help that skills like Invoke completely mitigate risk, but it's arguably a necessary evil given that Cantor's are a thing.
- #FuckCantor's
- Mediocre writing overall. Now keep in mind, the script is fantastic, but the writing is decidedly not. Gaiden's original plot was bad, but it could be excused because it was made in the early 90s. Sadly, Echoes does little to fix the overall story, and it arguably worsens it in a few areas. Duma and Mila are barely being set up, character actions start making less sense, there are dumb twists and explanations for certain events, and rules that should be made clear, aren't, leaving players confused. To cap it off, it has some of the most egregious Deus ex <achina I've seen in FE, period. It really comes down to the writers not making a serious attempt at rewriting the story to fit modern standards.
- The game is disappointingly sexist. For instance, a significant portion of the recruitable women have to be rescued. This could be slightly excusable by itself since it was a holdover from Gaiden, but the game doubles down on it by reflecting that mindset in the main narrative. Celica actually loses what little agency she has in the original Gaiden, there's that infamous sexualized shot of Mathilda, Rinea is the definition of a satellite character and so on. It's a huge shame, since the women in this game are generally well written, and Mathilda's relationship with Clive is pretty subversive.
- While supports are more natural and generally well written, their extreme brevity made them feel like a single support scene broken up into 3 separate ranks. Furthermore, characters have a shockingly low amount of characters they can support with. Forget Awakening/Fates, pretty much everyone has sub-GBA amount of supports with each other, which is criminal. There's no good reason why Gray can't support with Kliff, when Tobin can. Why does Celica have a support with Atlas, but not Husbando of the fucking Year (Saber).
- The enemy encounter system is absolutely terrible. For starters, you can't run until 3 turns have passed. This is pretty useless, since most skirmishes generally take 2-3 turns to complete anyay. So if you bump into a string of enemies in a dungeon, you're forced to play each of them out. This extends into the world map, where enemies constantly spawn and chase after your army, compounding on the tedium.
- Ultimately, FE:Echoes is a game that is ultimately constrained by its desire to faithfully emulate the original. I get stripping out pair up and the like for a distinct identity, but modern conveniences like talking to neutral mid battle,
NO ANNAdifferent songs for each map, inventory's and the like are absent simply because they weren't in the original Gaiden.
robotzombie
Member
So a couple of questions (just got to chapter 3)
1. Anything in particular I should do with the guy who passes items to the other group? Can I screw anything up with this?
2. What in the world do I do with Blacksmithing? I don't want to waste money upgrading useless stuff, and what does engraving do?
1. Anything in particular I should do with the guy who passes items to the other group? Can I screw anything up with this?
2. What in the world do I do with Blacksmithing? I don't want to waste money upgrading useless stuff, and what does engraving do?
Elaugaufein
Member
There's a limit number of times you can pass and at least one quest requires an item from the other side so you can screw stuff up that way. You can't make the game hard unwinnable or anything though.
It's weird, because a lot of people found the game to be a grind devoid of much strategy, but my playthrough was totally different.
I used tons of strategy. The game usually forced me to use my units to their maximum potential. I'd have to be aiming them at just the right enemies in just the right order to take as many of them out as possible so that they wouldn't gang up on one of my units on their turn.
And instead of the weapon triangle, it was sort of like an enemy type triangle. Mages beat physical tanks, tanks beat fast melee types, fast melee types beat mages. That's how it ended up working for me.
It doesn't touch Conquest's map designs and strategies, but I still had a grand time with Echoes. I just wish it was a bit longer. And that Alm and Celica were actually real equals story-wise. They destroyed Celica's character after act 3.
I used tons of strategy. The game usually forced me to use my units to their maximum potential. I'd have to be aiming them at just the right enemies in just the right order to take as many of them out as possible so that they wouldn't gang up on one of my units on their turn.
And instead of the weapon triangle, it was sort of like an enemy type triangle. Mages beat physical tanks, tanks beat fast melee types, fast melee types beat mages. That's how it ended up working for me.
It doesn't touch Conquest's map designs and strategies, but I still had a grand time with Echoes. I just wish it was a bit longer. And that Alm and Celica were actually real equals story-wise. They destroyed Celica's character after act 3.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
PK you hating on Atlas bro?
The issue is that the strategy in this game is extremely simplistic. You can typically boil down clearing encounters to 5 steps:
1) Move your best units in enemy range, ensuring none of your units dies on enemy phase
2) Kill all enemies
3) Heal when necessary
4) If you screw up, Turnwheel
5) Keep Alm / Celica safe
That's it. There's no depth, advanced strategy that differs from map to map, no optimal path to take, nothing. Nearly every map is approached the same way. The most advanced thing I can think of is using Warp to teleport a strong unit to a boss, but since maps are almost always rout, you can't even count on a faster clear for sniping a boss. You spend pretty much every fight waiting for enemies to come to you, since maps are typically large/poorly constructed and enemies ALWAYS chase after you. Sometimes you're forced to spam invoke against summoners, or snipe them with Bow Knight's but that's pretty much. The enemy type triangle you're referring to is something that's been fundamental to FE for years. And honestly, once you push your characters to their maximum potential, the balance falls by the wayside. Like Palla/Catria with the Blessed Lance just cuts through Terror's (and most enemies) Dread Fighters are obscenely good, and Bow Knights with the Killer Bow invalidate bosses with their 5 range and +50% crit chance. Also Alm and Celica are also some of the lowest maintenance lords ever, and the former is one, if not the best unit in the game.
I'm mostly just bitter he got the support with Celica over Saber. Plus he kind of sucks!
Freaking Limit
Member
I'd be more inclined to agree if I didn't end up with a few units on each side that have broken the game's difficulty. A Faye that has as much defense as a Knight and can nuke with 20 attack just trivializes everything. It doesn't help that she seems to be targeted by the AI because she is a mage. Of course, when she or Alm aren't being attacked, I feel a lot more of the strategy element in how I position units for the incoming enemy turn.
EDIT: I should also add that Most of my units on Alm's side are probably underleveled. My highest levels are Faye at 14, Alm at 11, and Clair at 10. Everyone else is at 7 or lower. Celica's is doing much better comparatively.
I liked Atlas much more than I thought I would - he's a simple character, but still very endearing due to how he was presented. Still, it probably would have been a good idea to get him to support with someone other than Celica - all that established was that she has an onii-chan fetish.
I think I would have accepted the supports being unvoiced if it meant getting more per character - 4-ish each, in the mould of the GBA games, would have been perfectly fine.
I think I would have accepted the supports being unvoiced if it meant getting more per character - 4-ish each, in the mould of the GBA games, would have been perfectly fine.
DragonGirl
Member
Finished the game and wish there was a Saber Amiibo. Holy crap was he a beast. My strategy on Celica's side boiled down to sending Saber out by himself to kill everything in his path, especially those frigging annoying Cantor waves.
Game was fun, I enjoyed it despite Celica going full lobotomy at the very end. Not the most memorable of the series and I don't see myself revisiting it but I hope it sells a million copies if only for the hope success here means an HD remaster/remake of Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn.
Surprising Pro: Wow these characters can take a hit. What a novelty for archers and mages in general to be pretty beefy. Also, love the range you can get with magic and bows.
Annoying Con: I have never seen so many wiffed strikes in a Fire Emblem game. I was always happy to see anybody land a blow. My Python could not hit shit to save his life, literally.
Game was fun, I enjoyed it despite Celica going full lobotomy at the very end. Not the most memorable of the series and I don't see myself revisiting it but I hope it sells a million copies if only for the hope success here means an HD remaster/remake of Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn.
Surprising Pro: Wow these characters can take a hit. What a novelty for archers and mages in general to be pretty beefy. Also, love the range you can get with magic and bows.
Annoying Con: I have never seen so many wiffed strikes in a Fire Emblem game. I was always happy to see anybody land a blow. My Python could not hit shit to save his life, literally.
Elaugaufein
Member
This is before they introduced the double roll (and they don't seem to have added it in for this remake) so you're more likely to hit under 50% and less likely over. Like 90% means you'll miss 1 time out of 10. The nature of the game means that generally favours enemies.
This game is so different from my past experience with Fire Emblem, it's pretty refreshing.
Question: is there a way to change what I want a unit to use for counterattack? For example I want my Celica to hit back with a stronger tome, not Fire.
btw is Saber supposed to be godlike? Mine kinda sucks, his attack is alright but he dies too fast, having only 6 def as a lv2 Myrmidon. Valbar on the other hand, is a walking wall. not even bosses can damage him..
Question: is there a way to change what I want a unit to use for counterattack? For example I want my Celica to hit back with a stronger tome, not Fire.
btw is Saber supposed to be godlike? Mine kinda sucks, his attack is alright but he dies too fast, having only 6 def as a lv2 Myrmidon. Valbar on the other hand, is a walking wall. not even bosses can damage him..
Xenoflare
Member
No, the game defaults with Fire or the lowest costing magic, and I appreciate that because magic cast from HP.
Saber is the MVP on my run, defense is actually his strong point in growth, if your Kamui has more defense than him on the same level then you are just really unlucky.
The armored knights in the game are wall in nature thanks to the class bases. I was able to solo parts of the final map with a Baron turned Gold Knight Lukas with a Hex shield to patch his Res.
Thanks for the explanation. It's still weird that my Mae cannot counterattack enemy archers shooting from 3 tiles away, even though she has Thunder.
My Saber got a streak of +1 level ups, I will continue use him because I like his design, and maybe exploit the Turnwheel a bit lol.
No need to worry yet since the class he promotes next to has a defense base of 11.
Splash Wave
Member
I really appreciate the tips, everyone! I think I just met the PK sisters, but it doesn't look like I can recruit them just yet.
So I just wiped with only
left to go. Needless to say I am very frustrated and have no desire to waste another hour +. What exactly are the rules? I figured Celica could attack him, but nope- nullified (and is how I wiped since you can't use Mila when a main character dies, stupidly). Can only Alm attack him once you see the amount of HP he has left?
I do so enjoy the random final battles "only this character can do the final blow" type stuff. I get why it's a thing story wise, but while my Alm is relatively strong, my Kamui could kick his and
's ass no sweat.
Duma
I do so enjoy the random final battles "only this character can do the final blow" type stuff. I get why it's a thing story wise, but while my Alm is relatively strong, my Kamui could kick his and
Duma
theprodigy
Member
Well Thabes Labyrinth is finished.
That was much easier than expected, really.
now to grind for 5 of the remaining medals+do a Blitzkrieg run
That was much easier than expected, really.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
at a certain amount of HP, 52 I think, you have to use Falchion to damage the rest
Thank ya. Figured it was something like that.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
lol
notice how i just started act four, and how behind my save file with the most days in Pegastym is. I think I reached like 376 days or something before I was satisfied with my units enough to go into Act four >.> I might have a problem
still worth it because Mae, Gray, Saber, and Kliff are fucking beasts now.
edit: also Berkut's voice actor is fucking amazing
Oh. o.o
Those units are all total MVPs, sans Gray in my file who keeps getting all these +1 HP level ups. Love the mages, especially! You probably have a whole list of spells to use at this point haha.
Only tangentially related, does Boey always and forever suck? Can grinding save his sorry state at all? Because he seems like a total waste of time. I'm only using him at this point hoping that his upgraded class is better and makes him less deadweight in non unit number restricted battles.
Gai Murakumo
Member
My Boey is actually not that bad. He is no glass cannon like Mae but at least he can survive a hit or two compared to her.
Echoes has been such a pleasant surprise to me. I didn't expect to like it as much as I currently am at all. I wasn't even really looking forward to it tbh, I just picked it up because it was a new Fire Emblem but by and large it felt like an uneventful release. Having beaten the first act, it's shaping up to be my second favorite 3DS entry. It just feels like an almost perfect marriage of classic and new Fire Emblem, and it feels really good to see a Fire Emblem with these production values and an engaging narrative to boot. The characters and writing in general also seem to be a step up compared to the previous 2 entries.
As someone who just came off a very traditional FE experience (SD), the fact that this game feels so different is actually quite refreshing. I wouldn't want this to become the new norm for the series, but it's really cool as a once-in-a-while experimental entry and I would love to see them carry over a few elements from this game over to FE Switch. It actually did a few things I've wanted the franchise to do for a while but never thought I'd see, and also gave me some other things I never even knew I wanted. Like a few other posters have said, it almost feels like a traditional JRPG with a Fire Emblem battle system.
Shame about the whole map design thing though, but so far I don't dislike them. That'll probably change once I get to the desert maps. Also, it's sad to see so little fanfare for this game in general. Fates already felt like a step down from the internet hype/enthusiasm of Awakening, but now this pretty much feels like a niche release.
As someone who just came off a very traditional FE experience (SD), the fact that this game feels so different is actually quite refreshing. I wouldn't want this to become the new norm for the series, but it's really cool as a once-in-a-while experimental entry and I would love to see them carry over a few elements from this game over to FE Switch. It actually did a few things I've wanted the franchise to do for a while but never thought I'd see, and also gave me some other things I never even knew I wanted. Like a few other posters have said, it almost feels like a traditional JRPG with a Fire Emblem battle system.
Shame about the whole map design thing though, but so far I don't dislike them. That'll probably change once I get to the desert maps. Also, it's sad to see so little fanfare for this game in general. Fates already felt like a step down from the internet hype/enthusiasm of Awakening, but now this pretty much feels like a niche release.
Aveyn Knight
Member
Don't worry, it's not just you. I think Nintendo considers it a pretty niche release, meant to fill in the gap until Fire Emblem Switch launches.
Hopefully the sales are decent so we can look forward to alternating mainline games and remakes for the foreseeable future.
I will literally shed tears the day a Genealogy of the Holy War or Binding Blade remake is announced.
It is interesting to consider that the circumstances that led to Echoes' creation likely will never be repeated again - remakes to fill time aren't going to be as attractive a prospect when working on a HD console, and transitioning to a next generation of Switches won't mandate such a drastic shift in scope as 3DS to Switch.
I'm not going to say that future remakes are an impossibility, but at the same time I can see them being passed up if they can't be produced as relatively cheaply as Echoes, especially given their apparent sales potential. Echoes/Shadow Dragon sales from a game requiring a larger budget aren't going to seem as viable.
I'm not going to say that future remakes are an impossibility, but at the same time I can see them being passed up if they can't be produced as relatively cheaply as Echoes, especially given their apparent sales potential. Echoes/Shadow Dragon sales from a game requiring a larger budget aren't going to seem as viable.
Ian Sinclair is a treasure.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
It's the same circumstances that gave us Sacred Stones, which is kind of funny given how much that game takes from Gaiden.
Sumio Mondo
Member
Yeah. It's also development resources as well. IS aren't a massive team and if they are all working on the next mainline Fire Emblem and one other smaller project of some sort (either assisting development of another game or making another puzzle game similar to Pushmo) alongside it both for Switch, there won't be any real time for them to make anymore of these remakes. Also makes the likelihood of a new Advance Wars seem even more grim, honestly.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Damn, Jesse.
Gave him the Brave Sword and now he's Criting twice in one turn.
Gave him the Brave Sword and now he's Criting twice in one turn.
Once they develop the engine for Fire Emblem 16, they won't have much an issue when it comes to development costs interfering with, say, a B team remaking the third through sixth entries or even the previously localized fare like Rekka No Ken and Path of Radiance. If anything, Echoes shows Intelligent Systems cutting corners like limiting the amount of in-game cutscenes and reducing the amount of time taken to render the cutscenes (admittedly this last part is an assumption since the CG certainly looks like a step down from Awakening & Fates with the uncanny movement and lack of dynamic lighting) as a means of reducing the cost of an entry that likely won't sell as well as a brand new entry would. The question isn't so much if they'll pass an opportunity to do so but rather which entry they would remake next. Fuuin No Tsurugi would make the most sense given the developer's comment and people's familiarity with Roy in Super Smash Bros. not to mention that it would mean the nearly 15 year old cliffhanger in the very first localized entry would finally be resolved.
Elaugaufein
Member
Ones for early game , the others for end game yeah.
Just finished the main game. Kamui was my MVP- his rating is like 201 now thanks to the Villager loop(pro tip- give him a brave sword and watch the crits never stop). Getting ready for postgame stuff including doing the amiibo dungeons, which are meh. I'll probably bite the bullet and get the season pass because I would like to spend more time with these characters.
I stand by my earlier assessment that this is my favorite of the 3DS titles. The story is the best of the three (not that that's saying much), and dungeon crawling was a great addition. Acts 1+2 are where the game peaks, but Acts 3-5 have their moments surrounded by boring slogs on huge maps.
Pros
- Protagonists I care about. Celica gets short shrift in the late game, but she still is one of my favorite FE heroines. Alm's struggles with good of the one/good of the many and personal wants/wants of the nation are cliche but done well.
- Interesting story. I found the Duma/Mila stuff fascinating, and it sent me on a Wiki binge as I'm not familiar with the Archanea games. While this would never happen, I think a Valentia sequel could go some places that the series hasn't really touched on. Alm's ending says that
- Dungeon crawling. It shouldn't work and yet it does. Crawling with randomized floors would be great postgame content for future games.
- Gameplay changes. Extended range of archers, only one inventory spot, and others mix up the formula in a satisfying way. While I did miss the weapon triangle, I was fine with it being gone for this one.
- Localization. The game is fully voice acted and the vast majority of it is wonderful. Props to 8-4 Play for the great translation.
Cons
- Map design. BLEHHHH. The desert and swamp maps on Celica's route can fuck off forever, thanks. No objectives besides rout all units/kill the commander. Double Lion does allow for some creativity on Alm's side.
- Related, unit variety. It's OK for Alm's side but Celica doesn't get the units she needs to deal with the unique terrains on her route. Ended up relying too much on Saber/Kamui as the enemy archer/mage combinations prevented the use of anyone else on those maps.
I stand by my earlier assessment that this is my favorite of the 3DS titles. The story is the best of the three (not that that's saying much), and dungeon crawling was a great addition. Acts 1+2 are where the game peaks, but Acts 3-5 have their moments surrounded by boring slogs on huge maps.
Pros
- Protagonists I care about. Celica gets short shrift in the late game, but she still is one of my favorite FE heroines. Alm's struggles with good of the one/good of the many and personal wants/wants of the nation are cliche but done well.
- Interesting story. I found the Duma/Mila stuff fascinating, and it sent me on a Wiki binge as I'm not familiar with the Archanea games. While this would never happen, I think a Valentia sequel could go some places that the series hasn't really touched on. Alm's ending says that
he launched a peace that lasted a thousand years. What happens when that peace shatters, and there are no longer "gods" to help mankind out of their inevitable wars?
- Dungeon crawling. It shouldn't work and yet it does. Crawling with randomized floors would be great postgame content for future games.
- Gameplay changes. Extended range of archers, only one inventory spot, and others mix up the formula in a satisfying way. While I did miss the weapon triangle, I was fine with it being gone for this one.
- Localization. The game is fully voice acted and the vast majority of it is wonderful. Props to 8-4 Play for the great translation.
Cons
- Map design. BLEHHHH. The desert and swamp maps on Celica's route can fuck off forever, thanks. No objectives besides rout all units/kill the commander. Double Lion does allow for some creativity on Alm's side.
- Related, unit variety. It's OK for Alm's side but Celica doesn't get the units she needs to deal with the unique terrains on her route. Ended up relying too much on Saber/Kamui as the enemy archer/mage combinations prevented the use of anyone else on those maps.
The only problem I had with it was when I was just trying to get to a shrine to class change. I do wish there were fast travel points.
SomeRandomWeirdGuy
Member
Haven't played Echoes yet, but Awakening is pretty much perfect for beginners. Big, colorful cast, an avatar to have fun with, all the relationship stuff, and a pretty simple game strategy wise.
Elfforkusu
Member
IMO, not Fates. Its story is bad. Its characters are bad.
This game (Echoes) is the closest to a JRPG FE gets, as far as I know. So if she likes JRPGs, this might be a good choice.
Awakening is a solid game, and also kind of a "kitchen sink" collection of every FE game up to that point.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
This is a remake of a very old game that isn't really indicative of what the series is like at all, think Zelda 2. Awakening would be a much friendlier starting place.
Hmmmm, okay. So definitely not this one. I think she'd like the relationship stuff in Awakening/Fates, anyway. I'll go for Awakening, and if I can't find a copy of that I'll get her Birthright or just the bundle of both games.
Awakening is that story.
(There's a reason the land is called "Valm" in Awakening BTW)Awakening is that story.
🤔🤔🤔