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A couple devs claim Switch patch sizes can be sometimes limited & other hurdles occur

A

Aroll

Member
The cynic in me says - stop releasing incomplete gaames and you won't have issue with patch sizes. It's a terrible trend in the industry that needs to stop. It should have never launched without al the features in the first place.

You can argue Nintendo's policy is trying to fight back against incomplete game releases.

At the other end of the spectrum, it's going to hurt the chances of devs supporting the platform because they aren't going to conform. It sounds like Nintendo will approve the sizes on patches anyways, but there is clearly other hanguos here.

I'm curious what the other hangups are. I'm all for rigorous approval of patches because security. Nintendo already approved the size. So... now what's stopping it?
 
G

Gen X

Trust no one. Eat steaks.
TheGamingBox said:
they kinda are, a big reason why patches are so big now, is that they are including all the dlc in them and just making buying the dlc as a unlock
Click to expand...

Some games require the dlc in the patches, especially multi-player games like Forza for example. Can't have some guy driving around in his newly purchased dlc Porsche only to appear as a Fiat Bambina on your screen.
 
S

Scum

Junior Member
Protome said:
Seriously though why are people talking about file sizes instead of the topic of the thread?
Click to expand...

Hey! You're not the boss of me! I saw 'Nintendo', 'harsh', 'Switch' and 'limiting' in the thread title. That's all I need! :V
 
Z

zelas

Member
Protome said:
What? The thing that isn't the reason the patch isn't out?
Click to expand...
From OP:
[Nintendo] won't allow it initially as their system doesn't support it. From our end it's already done.
Once it's supported we will be able to do it.
Click to expand...
The online infrastructure of the Switch is part of the Switch. They were designed hand in hand. Under Nintendo.

TheMisterManGuy said:
I'm not saying Nintendo isn't at fault to a degree. But people are trying to spin this as some arbitrary policy when it's actually a system limitation. Nintendo should find a solution, but people are grasping at any straw they can to make Nintendo look developer unfriendly without actually reading.
Click to expand...
I mean if they're choosing to use their power as platform holders to make devs create more efficient games and patches then who else deserves more blame for this specific situation? It's not like Saber is being unreasonable with a 50GB+ game and patch. Had that been the case then maybe the blame should be split more evenly.
 
J

jnWake

Member
Some games like Bomberman have received several patches so the title seems clickbaity.

Have we heard any other dev having issues? I can see why they'd prefer having small patches but it seems like a silly limit to put.
 
A

aBarreras

Member
zelas said:
From OP:

The online infrastructure of the Switch is part of the Switch. They were designed hand in hand. Under Nintendo.


I mean if they're choosing to use their power as platform holders to make devs create more efficient games and patches then who else deserves more blame for this specific situation? It's not like Saber is being unreasonable with a 50GB+ game and patch. Had that been the case then maybe the blame should be split more evenly.
Click to expand...

that part is about the ability to reduce the game size not about the patch size
 
B

big_erk

Member
Quoting the dev " It took us almost 3 weeks to get an exception to allow our patch to be larger than the normal size."

So apparently they already have approval for the larger file size. Since that's the case why has this thread devolved into a Nintendo sucks because they won't allow a 50GB patch thread?
 
I

Instro

Member
Protome said:
Seriously though why are people talking about file sizes instead of the topic of the thread?
Click to expand...

??
The issue is precipitated by the developer having to request special exceptions to patch their game due to the patch size which apparently took weeks. So file sizes seems like an important issue to discuss in this thread, along with points related to Nintendo's slow responsiveness on these types of things, the lack of Switch storage space and the apparent inability to patch game sizes on the Switch right now.
 
WaterAstro

WaterAstro

Member
Oh good ol' Nintendo.

For reference, Sony used to have a pretty restrictive patch size, but they opened the floodgates for PS4 and allow like up to 2gigs or something ridiculous.

If Nintendo can't match, then ports will be extremely hard to support if devs can't patch different console versions the same way.
 
Pokemaniac

Pokemaniac

Member
Ravidrath said:
While I don't know how Nintendo's system works, devs don't "release insanely sized patches."

The actual size of the patch isn't under devs' direct control. Devs upload the full build to MS or Sony, and their patch system generates the patch based on what changed, etc.

So the only way to possibly get devs to limit patch sizes would be to ask devs to fix fewer bugs, make fewer improvements, and generally do less work improving the game. And that still might not actually change anything, since where all the data ends up in the package isn't predictable.
Click to expand...

This is a naive read of the situation. The cause of artificially large patches is the specific intersection of patch systems that operate on a file granularity and game engines that pack lots of little things into gigantic files (bonus points if said gigantic files are compressed or laid out unpredictably, which can even thwart more granular patching systems). It's really the engines' fault for storing files in a manner that is basically a pathological case for most patching systems.
 
J

Jayveer

Member
Although I agree with people that say patch sizes are too big nowadays, I feel like since the storage mediums increased in size there's less emphasise on using compression techniques and such as much as there was back in the day. Regardless of all that though, I don't know how anyone can defend Nintendo in this instance, I love my switch, but it's doing things like this that are going to turn third parties away.
 
Dsyndrome

Dsyndrome

Member
Pokemaniac said:
This is a naive read of the situation. The cause of artificially large patches is the specific intersection of patch systems that operate on a file granularity and game engines that pack lots of little things into gigantic files (bonus points if said gigantic files are compressed or laid out unpredictably, which can even thwart more granular patching systems). It's really the engines' fault for storing files in a manner that is basically a pathological case for most patching systems.
Click to expand...

Would you like Unreal Engine games to not release on the Switch? The genie is out of the bottle.
 
M

mugurumakensei

Member
Jayveer said:
Although I agree with people that say patch sizes are too big nowadays, I feel like since the storage mediums increased in size there's less emphasise on using compression techniques and such as much as there was back in the day. Regardless of all that though, I don't know how anyone can defend Nintendo in this instance, I love my switch, but it's doing things like this that are going to turn third parties away.
Click to expand...

90% chance this policy is in place because like 90% of the system things were rushed. They're probably trying to solve storing patches on SD cards and/or system storage with both digital and physical game copies.
 
T

TwistedFreeze

Member
I can kind of understand why if the issue is, say, the internal storage space within the Switch but, for most of whom who are serious about buying digital games or just need the extra space because of DLC, patches, etc, they can just get MicroSD cards anyways. Limiting developers on the size of their patches is pretty shitty on their hand. Hope they have a change of heart on this
 
S

Serenitynow

Member
TheMisterManGuy said:
If this thread has taught me anything, it's that gamers are desperate to spin anything Nintendo does as negative. All people had to do was read the OP, but instead people are grasping on to this "LOL Nintendo gonna Nintendo" when it's actually a system limitation than some arbitrary policy.
Click to expand...

Did YOU read the OP? The dev said he had to wait 3 weeks to get the size of his file approved. It's not just system limitations. He's clearly frustrated with dealing with Nintendo.
 
Pokemaniac

Pokemaniac

Member
Dsyndrome said:
Would you like Unreal Engine games to not release on the Switch? The genie is out of the bottle.
Click to expand...

My post did not imply that large patches should not be allowed.

It does, however, suggest that the existence of some systemic inefficiencies which may warrant engine devolopers reevaluating some trade-offs.
 
Jubenhimer

Jubenhimer

Member
Serenitynow said:
Did YOU read the OP? The dev said he had to wait 3 weeks to get the size of his file approved. It's not just system limitations. He's clearly frustrated with dealing with Nintendo.
Click to expand...

I understand that, and I said Nintendo should work to find a solution. What I'm saying is that it's not just an arbitrary policy put into place for no reason, the OP states that reducing the file size isn't something the system supports yet.

Like I said, Nintendo should try to find a solution, but this isn't them trying to be evil overloads. I imagine Sony and Microsoft have some similar guidelines in regards to patches
 
A

AR15mex

Member
I dont have a problem with the polciy. In the first place this game should shipped properly. Now they are bitching cause nintendo would not let them to fix their glitchy or bogus game because of size? That should teach them not to play with customers money in the first place.

More into the policy I do not have a problem with it. Some times devs go all out with their "quick fixes"and its like 4 gigs... so good for nintendo.
 
Calm Mind

Calm Mind

Member
This will posted in every Switch thread from now on until it stops. (shitposting)
1Wcsoxs.png
Click to expand...
 
K

KratosEnergyDrink

Member
Serenitynow said:
Did YOU read the OP? The dev said he had to wait 3 weeks to get the size of his file approved. It's not just system limitations. He's clearly frustrated with dealing with Nintendo.
Click to expand...

Its probably more frustrating for Nintendo dealing with unprofessional developers that want 7+ GB patches for their little indie games. Many even content rich Nintendo games have less filesize than this patch.

That big patch size could be appropriate for big content updates but not for games like this. It's embarrassing that the developers even thought this would be ok. Learn how to code and compression techniques and proper update/patch mechanism.
 
M

MartyStu

Member
It is crappy that Nintendo is not following the general industry standard. I can agree with that. They should fix this issue.

That said, patch sizes have gotten pretty absurd. Even from Nintendo themselves. I definitely support tighter restrictions, just not from Nintendo.

This is the sort of risk you only take if you are the market leader.
 
Dsyndrome

Dsyndrome

Member
Calm Mind said:
This will posted in every Switch thread from now on until it stops. (shitposting)
Click to expand...
If you think everyone criticizing the Switch and its infrastructure a) hates Nintendo, and b) doesn't own a Switch, I don't know what to tell you. People can be fans of a product and say that shit sucks about it.
 
M

MUnited83

For you.
big_erk said:
Quoting the dev " It took us almost 3 weeks to get an exception to allow our patch to be larger than the normal size."

So apparently they already have approval for the larger file size. Since that's the case why has this thread devolved into a Nintendo sucks because they won't allow a 50GB patch thread?
Click to expand...
?
Having to wait three motherfucking weeks to get a exception (please search the meaning of that word in the dictionary) is utterly fucking ridiculous.
Calm Mind said:
This will posted in every Switch thread from now on until it stops. (shitposting)
Click to expand...
So your view of what constitutes "civilized discussion" is switch fanboys that literally wear switch t-shirts circlejerking about how great it is without ever doing any sort of legitimate criticism?
 
ArtHands

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
big_erk said:
Quoting the dev " It took us almost 3 weeks to get an exception to allow our patch to be larger than the normal size."

So apparently they already have approval for the larger file size. Since that's the case why has this thread devolved into a Nintendo sucks because they won't allow a 50GB patch thread?
Click to expand...

The issue here is that it is an exception, so there's still some form of limitation when there shouldn't be any.
 
Jubenhimer

Jubenhimer

Member
MartyStu said:
It is crappy that Nintendo is not following the general industry standard. I can agree with that. They should fix this issue.

That said, patch sizes have gotten pretty absurd. Even from Nintendo themselves. I definitely support tighter restrictions, just not from Nintendo.

This is the sort of risk you only take if you are the market leader.
Click to expand...

I think what Saber is actually complaining about is the fact that the Switch lacks a native compression tool like other platforms at the moment, and that they had to wait to get an exception from Nintendo to get the patch out. Nintendo should try and fix this issue, but having a file size cap on patches doesn't seem to be the issue, the issue is more about the lack of anyway native way to compress the size.
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
weltalldx said:
How hard can it be to catch issues with these modern games you speak of, which I would consider as having more spectacles rather than complex game design. Are you seriously proposing a game like The Order 1886 is anymore complex outside of its presentation than Resident Evil 4 or Mario Sunshine?

There seems to be a pattern in this thread that some posters equate graphical prowess to higher game mechanic complexity, which in turn requires more effort to patch. This is hogwash. Writing a game engine to computer the area and perimeter of two circles for hit detection is orders of magnitude harder than choosing from a set of template which pre-assembled assets from the store look better in Unity.
Click to expand...

It is not either/or. Game engines simply ARE significantly more complex today. The type of things games deal with today from physics calculations to diverse animation challenges to A.I. as well as any number of specific engine nuances is quite vast. It is one reason games cost so much to make today for a AAA product. It is another reason development teams have ballooned to such a degree.

That doesn't necessarily mean a game is mechanically more complex, although certainly sometimes it does. A AAA open world game of today is dealing with significantly more engine complexity than a PS2 open World title.
 
R

rudger

Member
Have people lost their minds in this thread? There have been multiple patches released for Switch games already. Some made by Nintendo, some for Unity made games, some for Unreal 4 made games. What fucking nonsense am I reading that patches for these engines must be these monstrosities and we all must accept this "reality"? Games already out on the system prove that small patches can be made for games with modern engines.
 
Calm Mind

Calm Mind

Member
Dsyndrome said:
If you think everyone criticizing the Switch and its infrastructure a) hates Nintendo, and b) doesn't own a Switch, I don't know what to tell you. People can be fans of a product and say that shit sucks about it.
Click to expand...

BernardoOne said:
So your view of what constitutes "civilized discussion" is switch fanboys that literally wear switch t-shirts circlejerking about how great it is without ever doing any sort of legitimate criticism?
Click to expand...

Point flies over heads; shitposts continues.
 
Schnozberry

Schnozberry

Member
The developer later posted in the same thread that it was an 8 week rushed port to meet a simultaneous release timeline on an unfinished version of Unreal Engine 4. They released it feature incomplete while not understanding the limitations on patch size or properly optimizing the game. He also said the exception for the patch size was already granted and it isn't the current problem.

The storage and patching limitations are Nintendo's problem and they should solve them, but honestly Saber comes out of this looking a bit incompetent. Now, after weeks of stringing people along with BS patch date announcements and free games that they aren't sure how they'll give away, they are trying to shift blame for their own lack of due diligence off to Nintendo.
 
D

DeuceGamer

Member
Schnozberry said:
The developer later posted in the same thread that it was an 8 week rushed port to meet a simultaneous release timeline on an unfinished version of Unreal Engine 4. They released it feature incomplete while not understanding the limitations on patch size or properly optimizing the game. He also said the exception for the patch size was already granted and it isn't the current problem.

The storage and patching limitations are Nintendo's problem and they should solve them, but honestly Saber comes out of this looking a bit incompetent. Now, after weeks of stringing people along with BS patch date announcements and free games that they aren't sure how they'll give away, they are trying to shift blame for their own lack of due diligence off to Nintendo.
Click to expand...

So what you are saying is the Developer told their consumers (including me), that they would patch the online in a few dqys after launch without even knowing if it was even feasible? To me that's more on the Dev than Nintendo.

Obviously Nintendo needs to make it easy on devs to patch games, like I said earlier, but in this case I'm not going to blame Nintendo if the Dev made promises they weren't even sure they could keep.

Edit: I'd also like to know what the hold up is now since it's not the file size.
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
rudger said:
Have people lost their minds in this thread? There have been multiple patches released for Switch games already. Some made by Nintendo, some for Unity made games, some for Unreal 4 made games. What fucking nonsense am I reading that patches for these engines must be these monstrosities and we all must accept this "reality"? Games already out on the system prove that small patches can be made for games with modern engines.
Click to expand...

It may shock you to know that different games have different issues that need patching, and that sometimes these issues require patches that are on the larger end of the spectrum.

I am not sure why you'd try to prop up this strawman that almost anyone is arguing that patches for modern games are impossible across the board.

The issue is simply that such regressive and arbitrary limitations on patches are indeed going to make some patches difficult if not completely unfeasible, and such roadblocks are going to make Nintendo's already difficult relationship with third parties worse. As well as reducing the quality of life for Switch users who may see some games stuck with less features or serious problems because a dev cant figure out a way around the roadblocks without either too much time or money investment to make it worthwhile.

Nintendo needs to stop harming themselves, and some of their fans need to stop enabling them.
 
P

pretty done

Member
TheMisterManGuy said:
If this thread has taught me anything, it's that gamers are desperate to spin anything Nintendo does as negative. All people had to do was read the OP, but instead people are grasping on to this "LOL Nintendo gonna Nintendo" when it's actually a system limitation than some arbitrary policy.
Click to expand...

It's also proof that gamers are desperate to spin anything Nintendo related into a positive. Last gen Sony and MS rightfully got their asses torn up for their stupid patch policies. Now Nintendo has stupid patch policies and half the thread is saying "good, stop releasing broken games that need patches"

lol

I'm sure you guys did love patches when Nintendo patched BotW to stop dropping frames every 2 seconds. Should have delayed the game!
 
Jubenhimer

Jubenhimer

Member
pretty done said:
It's also proof that gamers are desperate to spin anything Nintendo related into a positive. Last gen Sony and MS rightfully got their asses torn up for their stupid patch policies. Now Nintendo has stupid patch policies and half the thread is saying "good, stop releasing broken games that need patches"

lol

I'm sure you guys did love patches when Nintendo patched BotW to stop dropping frames every 2 seconds. Should have delayed the game!
Click to expand...

Nintendo can loosen up somewhat. But the issue isn't really their policies so much as the lack of a native compression tool.
 
T

The_Endgamer

Member
Good. If Sony and Microsoft don't want to enforce making patches smaller, good on Nintendo.

I'm sick of downloading 3GB or 7GB worth of patches all the time for nearly every PS4 game I own. I just end up deleting the game off my console if it takes up too much space and rarely re-download/play it ever again.
 
B

BHK3

Banned
Stop releasing incomplete games
Make sure they actually work day fucking one
For the love of god compress your shit and stop forcing DLC downloads disguised as patches

All of you have experienced the huge patches from Doom 2016, the game that gets these xbox huge updates that include multiplayer content that no one even fucking plays. North American internet has not kept up with these huge downloads, I'm totally on Nintendos side here.
 
D

Diablohead

Member
Gen X said:
Some games require the dlc in the patches, especially multi-player games like Forza for example. Can't have some guy driving around in his newly purchased dlc Porsche only to appear as a Fiat Bambina on your screen.
Click to expand...
In forza 2 if you did not download the free car dlc then the game would use a black generic blob of a car if someone drove a dlc vehicle, this was back when game patches were limited to several megs and did not stay saved to the hdd
 
N

Niceguydan8

Member
pretty done said:
I'm sure you guys did love patches when Nintendo patched BotW to stop dropping frames every 2 seconds. Should have delayed the game!
Click to expand...

You are in a thread about patching a game that shipped with literally a full on missing mode that was in other versions.

Bringing up a Zelda patch that had performance increases(of which you're being hyperbolic outside of some very specific scenarios in the game, which also weakens your point) is probably not a strong case to make your point in that context.
 
H

hardcastlemccormick

Banned
Nintendo should let the consumer decide if they want to download the patch or not. It's not hard on Steam to stop automatic updates.

Figuring out the best method of compression and patching is a lot of work. I feel for the developers here. I agree in principle about getting it right the first time, but if you want your games well compressed to fit on flash memory, then large patch downloads it is (unless you support delta updates at the network download and OS level).

Technical realities suck. Making a hard line on the policy won't fix them, it'll just cut off support for your console.
 
Schnozberry

Schnozberry

Member
DeuceGamer said:
So what you are saying is the Developer told their consumers (including me), that they would patch the online in a few dqys after launch without even knowing if it was even feasible? To me that's more on the Dev than Nintendo.

Obviously Nintendo needs to make it easy on devs to patch games, like I said earlier, but in this case I'm not going to blame Nintendo if the Dev made promises they weren't even sure they could keep.

Edit: I'd also like to know what the hold up is now since it's not the file size.
Click to expand...

They won't say what the hold up is now. They claim it's an NDA thing. At this point their community manager has nothing to add.

He admitted they didn't have Switch Dev Kits until 8 weeks before the game launched, didn't spent a lot of time optimizing, and cut features from the Switch launch because they knew it was coming in hot. They "days after launch" thing was never a reality. He said they have had online working in dev builds for several weeks, but that was already a month later than they said it would be. I'm guessing at this point that the game isn't passing cert because it's unacceptably buggy, much like it is across the other platforms. The PS4/Xbox/Steam threads on their facebook community page are full of people having connection issues, bugs with players freezing or walking off the court and getting stuck, and gameplay issues with changes in the shooting mechanics.
 
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