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Mama Robotnik · Jul 24, 2010

I'm wondering if there is concensus on what should and should not be considered piracy. How far does the right to make a backup go? Under what circumstances, if any, are backups sound? I find it ambiguous and unclear and would like to hear perspectives.

I've listed a couple of scenarios here. Are some of them/any of them/all of them piracy? I don't know, so I'm asking where people draw a line. You can approach this however you like, for example taking each scenario and labelling it as PIRACY / NOT PIRACY. Alternatively, you can post your view on where making a backup becomes an act of piracy.

ADVISORY NOTE - This thread is to talk about how we define piracy as a concept. I'd strongly advise not discussing any personal experiences pirating software however you define it, its not a route worth going down.

Scenarios - Feel free to use or disregard. I've included a NEW and USED variable in case anyone feels this makes a difference.

[1] Purchasing a game NEW, then using a No CD crack because DRM/driver/compatability issues are causing you difficulties running from the disk?

[2] Purchasing a game NEW, then using a NO CD crack because you don't want to keep inserting and removing the disk?

[3] Purchasing a game NEW, then making a backup and playing from this to preserve your original purchase.

[4] Purchasing a game NEW, then letting a friend borrow this original?

[4a] Purchasing a game USED, then letting a friend borrow this original?

[4b] Purchasing a game NEW, making a backup, and letting your friend borrow your backup? (the original is still preserved and never used)

[4c] Purchasing a game USED, making a backup, and letting your friend borrow your backup? (the used original is still preserved and never used)

[5] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident and playing from your backup?

[6] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident and you make a copy of a friend's disk to continue playing?

[7] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident, and you download an ISO from a torrent site to continue playing?

[7a] Purchasing a game USED, your original is destroyed in an accident, and you download an ISO from a torrent site to replace it?

[8] Dumping a ROM from a cartridge you purchased a decade ago, then using various emulators and hardware to play this ROM?

[8a] Downloading a ROM dump from a torrent site of a game cartridge you purchased a decade ago?

[8b] Downloading a ROM dump from a torrent site of a game cartridge you purchased a decade ago, but have since lost?

[9] Downloading multiple ROM hacks of a retro game, when you have purchased the original game itself as part of a recent retro compilation disk.

Some of these I feel clear on, whereas others stump me, so I'm looking forward to reading opinions.

Dreamwriter · Jul 24, 2010

Legally, transferring copyrighted material without the creator's consent is illegal, regardless of if you own the original. You can make your own backups for yourself, and of course you can apply mods to your own stuff. And there is no software yet that has had its copyright run out, so it doesn't matter if it's an Atari 2600 ROM or a ROM of Crysis 3.

ULTROS! · Jul 24, 2010

In my opinion, purchasing the game new/used and doing whatever you like is not piracy at all (thus 1-7a is a no for me) as long as you do not distribute the modified/burned/copied game for personal benefits (like selling it).

Of course, one of my definitions of piracy is simply purchasing a game new, then making multiple backups, then distributing/selling it for personal benefits.

Regarding ROMs, not so sure yet though, will need to think about it.

Mama Robotnik · Jul 24, 2010

Dreamwriter said:
Legally, transferring copyrighted material without the creator's consent is illegal, regardless of if you own the original.

So, if I understand correctly, letting a friend borrow one of your games is illegal?

What if they play it at your home instead of theirs?

Oxymoron · Jul 24, 2010

Piracy: 4b, 4c.

All the rest are consistent with the idea that you're actually purchasing a transferable license to play the game, and not the game itself. With 4b and 4c, keeping the copy implies that you aren't giving up your license to play the game to the person borrowing, or that you did transfer the license and are yourself keeping the unlicensed copy.

Segata Sanshiro · Jul 24, 2010

Generally once an eyepatch, peg leg, and parrot have entered the picture, but I'll give serious consideration for just two of the three.

Onion_Relish · Jul 24, 2010

As soon as you are disingenuous. If you let a friend borrow it so he can experience the greatness of the game, its fine. If you let him borrow it and rip it and destroy it because bobby kotick is hitler, then you're in a world of hurt.

benny_a · Jul 24, 2010

None of the examples you list seem like piracy to me.

And I don't even find it hard to say so with those examples.
And just to make sure: I'm aware of the fallacy of the beard.

I can tell where the spectrum there is a clear copyright violation that I agree with:
If you upload the game you purchased (or rented) and other people download it without buying it.

I think basically it's the impersonal nature of big number torrent sites which makes it piracy to me. But I lend games to others, and I rent games some times, so using a backup is just a convenient way of doing this. I don't have to get the game back by having a meeting.
(I play mostly on PS3 so creating backups is not possible, but I would like to for the above mentioned reason.)

BlueMagic · Jul 24, 2010

Yeah? Well, you fight like a cow.

You forgot BIOS dumps, for emulators

Dreamwriter · Jul 24, 2010

Mama Robotnik said:
So, if I understand correctly, letting a friend borrow one of your games is illegal?

What if they play it at your home instead of theirs?

I meant over the internet, sorry.

itxaka · Jul 24, 2010

Only if you get profit from it. Lending it to a friend is just normal. Also, no 2 copies of the same disc played at the same time.

Regarding roms. If they aré unavailable to purchase anywhere its ok for me.

NekoFever · Jul 24, 2010

Some of these, like 1-3, are illegal but I wouldn't blame someone for doing them and wouldn't class it as piracy.

4b and 4c I would call piracy because you're making copies and distributing them. Even if you only lent them to your friend, it's not legally any different to putting it on the Internet on the condition that the person deletes it after a short time. That pretend 24-hour rule still shows up a lot and it's the same argument.

6 is another one that's probably illegal but I wouldn't blame anyone for doing. If you had your own CD key it doesn't make a difference which copy you're using, since many publishers' arguments are that you own the licence to play it, which is represented by that key.

7/7a are piracy. If you're getting it from the torrent site you're simultaneously uploading it to others, distributing it illegally.

8 is legal; 8a/8b are not. You're legally allowed to make your own backups for personal use but distributing them is piracy. It's another one that's perhaps legally wrong but not necessarily morally wrong, although you're going to be supporting pirates through traffic, ad impressions, uploads if it's a torrent, etc.

9 is a legal grey area because you're not legally allowed to modify copyrighted code, which ROMs are, even if you dumped it yourself. Again, though, I don't think anyone's going to hold it against you if you own the game.

Kinitari · Jul 24, 2010

I think one of the problems is applying the term piracy to many of those (if not all) those scenarios.

I think the line is a moving one, as it relies heavily on intent - if someone intends to purchase a game, but does not because he borrows from a friend, while I don't find this objectional - I can see how a developer/publisher might. If a friend wasn't really planning on buying a game, but a friend loans it to him, I don't see how a developer can be upset.

Unfortunately, even this line of thinking can easily be abused (I never planned on buying those 200 DS games).

Honestly when it comes to me, all I can do before I label anything as 'pirating' is go with my gut. If some dude is selling bootlegged 360 games out the back of his trunk, no problem. If a dude buys a game, steps out of the store and accidentally drops it down a drain pipe - well I wont condemn him for finding alternative ways of playing the game.

BrainZEROX · Jul 24, 2010

In France:

Mama Robotnik said:
[1] Purchasing a game NEW, then using a No CD crack because DRM/driver/compatability issues are causing you difficulties running from the disk?

[2] Purchasing a game NEW, then using a NO CD crack because you don't want to keep inserting and removing the disk?

Both are illegal here, it's forbidden to bypass a digital protection. Discussions about how to bypass these protections are also illegal.

[3] Purchasing a game NEW, then making a backup and playing from this to preserve your original purchase.

Eventhough we have laws that allow software backup, we also had more recent decisions that considered these laws do not apply to optical media as they are not supposed to suffer the effect of time like older media did. Also creating a backup probably makes you overcome some digital protection so no.

[4] Purchasing a game NEW, then letting a friend borrow this original?

[4a] Purchasing a game USED, then letting a friend borrow this original?

That's OK, the license agreement you get buying the game covers yourself and people that are close to you (close family and friends). Sharing over the Internet is not borrowing of course...

[4b] Purchasing a game NEW, making a backup, and letting your friend borrow your backup? (the original is still preserved and never used)

[4c] Purchasing a game USED, making a backup, and letting your friend borrow your backup? (the used original is still preserved and never used)

[5] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident and playing from your backup?

[6] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident and you make a copy of a friend's disk to continue playing?

No backup allowed so no.

[7] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident, and you download an ISO from a torrent site to continue playing?

[7a] Purchasing a game USED, your original is destroyed in an accident, and you download an ISO from a torrent site to replace it?

You can't legally do that because it's similar to copying the game. Copyrights are not included in the license agreement you got from buying the game.

[8] Dumping a ROM from a cartridge you purchased a decade ago, then using various emulators and hardware to play this ROM?

That one is tricky... Provided you do not break any protection, I guess it's OK as long you can prove you have a legal license to do so (you do have the original cartridge and you dumped your own cartridge).

[8a] Downloading a ROM dump from a torrent site of a game cartridge you purchased a decade ago?

[8b] Downloading a ROM dump from a torrent site of a game cartridge you purchased a decade ago, but have since lost?

Downloading = copying so it's illegal without any copyright license.

[9] Downloading multiple ROM hacks of a retro game, when you have purchased the original game itself as part of a recent retro compilation disk.

Legally you are not allowed to modify copyrighted code. There's an exception though which is reverse engineering for educational purpose but the results should not be widely shared.

arstal · Jul 24, 2010

When you get banned for it on here. ^_^

Dedication Through Light · Jul 24, 2010

[4] Purchasing a game NEW, then letting a friend borrow this original?

Thats the only one that isnt piracy.

I believe that all of those are cases are some form of piracy. By passing DRM, making a copy (doesnt it statement copies cant be made and sold?), making a backup; once again thats copying it, Im quite sure "said company" doesnt want the person copying it, piracy too. lol. Isnt copying a form of piracy?

moojito · Jul 24, 2010

I think piracy is providing people with a copy of the software. So all of the ones relating to that. Whether or not it's for profit.

Some of the other ones are certainly debatable legally, but folk replying would want to remember that it's which ones constitute piracy that's being asked, not which ones would be legal.

disappeared · Jul 24, 2010

I can relate really only to scenario [2]. No-CD cracks for PC games are a non-issue in my books because after I finish installing the (multiple) disk(s), I'm done with swapping. I've bought the game, and if there's an option for me to play it without the disk I'll usually take the advantage.

Stumpokapow · Jul 24, 2010

playing a game you didn't buy is piracy

playing a game you bought is not piracy

playing a game you rented or borrowed during the rental or borrowing term is not piracy

mario allstars isn't the same game as mario 1

as it relates to the op:
1) not piracy
2) not piracy
3) not piracy
4) not piracy if you're using it for local lan play regardless of user agreements, piracy if you're both playing on an ongoing bases
4a) same as 4
4b) not piracy
4c) not piracy
5) not piracy
6) not piracy
7) not piracy, but you should turn off uploading, because that's participating in piracy
7a) same as 7
8) not piracy
8a) not piracy, but you should avoid downloading "omg every single game on a console" torrents because you don't own the other games
8b) not piracy
9) not piracy

disappeared · Jul 24, 2010

Stumpokapow said:
mario allstars isn't the same game as mario 1

Alas.

Dandy · Jul 24, 2010

Stumpokapow said:
playing a game you didn't buy is piracy

What if your mum got it for you, or you borrowed it from a friend, or you found it under a tree?

Stumpokapow · Jul 24, 2010

Dandy said:
What if your mum got it for you, or you borrowed it from a friend, or you found it under a tree?

deliberately obtuse

Speevy · Jul 24, 2010

This is a good thread, and finally provides the perfect time to ask this question.

Why does most of this forum consider downloading Gears of War piracy, but playing Super Mario Brothers on your PSP not piracy.

Discuss.

TouchMyBox · Jul 24, 2010

Stumpokapow said:
playing a game you didn't buy is piracy

playing a game you bought is not piracy

playing a game you rented or borrowed during the rental or borrowing term is not piracy

mario allstars isn't the same game as mario 1

as it relates to the op:
1) not piracy
2) not piracy
3) not piracy
4) not piracy if you're using it for local lan play regardless of user agreements, piracy if you're both playing on an ongoing bases
4a) same as 4
4b) not piracy
4c) not piracy
5) not piracy
6) not piracy
7) not piracy, but you should turn off uploading, because that's participating in piracy
7a) same as 7
8) not piracy
8a) not piracy, but you should avoid downloading "omg every single game on a console" torrents because you don't own the other games
8b) not piracy
9) not piracy

And then there is buying a pirated copy (I will never understand why so many people do this)

Speevy said:
This is a good thread, and finally provides the perfect time to ask this question.

Why does most of this forum consider downloading Gears of War piracy, but playing Super Mario Brothers on your PSP not piracy.

Discuss.

If the person playing emulated mario bros never paid for mario bros, then it's piracy. The reason many people are okay with situations like the latter opposed to the former is because until virtual console, nintendo was not accepting money for super mario bros (there were many re-releases such as collections on the GBA, but those have been long out of print. Hunting down a copy and purchasing it legally will not net Nintendo any profits whatsoever) hence it's not going to put nintendo out of business if you were to pirate super mario bros. Nobody is going to lose their job, so there isn't any real world consequences.

Of course virtual console exists now, so the point to kinda moot for that game in particular.

disappeared · Jul 24, 2010

Speevy said:
This is a good thread, and finally provides the perfect time to ask this question.

Why does most of this forum consider downloading Gears of War piracy, but playing Super Mario Brothers on your PSP not piracy.

Discuss.

I suppose, if Nintendo and/or Sony wanted us to play Mario Bros. on a PSP they'd release a retail copy or digital download. But the truth is obvious, and it won't happen. So - the little tech-geeks we are - we find ways to circumnavigate those restrictions. Granted it is entirely illegal (modding, roms, etc), but homebrew stuff seems like more of a 'slap on the wrist' type of deal. I don't know.

ULTROS! · Jul 24, 2010

TouchMyBox said:
And then there is buying a pirated copy (I will never understand why so many people do this)

Buying a pirated copy? Simple: gaming is an expensive hobby, and since there are gamers who want to play these games, they have the option to buy the pirated version. Take my country for example, there are a lot of gamers but are opted to go for pirated software (since we are not really a very wealthy country).

Dedication Through Light · Jul 24, 2010

Speevy said:
This is a good thread, and finally provides the perfect time to ask this question.

Why does most of this forum consider downloading Gears of War piracy, but playing Super Mario Brothers on your PSP not piracy.

Discuss.

Maybe they own SMB and consider their version on the PSP as a backup? Though I wonder, would Nintendo consider it piracy, lol

Speevy · Jul 24, 2010

Dedication Through Light said:
Maybe they own SMB and consider their version on the PSP as a backup? Though I wonder, would Nintendo consider it piracy, lol

But they almost certainly don't, and moreover Nintendo does consider it piracy.

Stumpokapow · Jul 24, 2010

TouchMyBox said:
And then there is buying a pirated copy (I will never understand why so many people do this)

Buying a pirated copy from a street vendor, knowingly, is clearly piracy (and like you say, pretty idiotic because if you're not even going to pretend to get a real copy you're on the same ethical level as someone who pirated and out money)

Buying a GBA game on eBay and finding out it was a pirated copy is probably the closest thing to a case where it's hard to figure out what the right thing to do is. I bought FFTA from eBay in,and it's clearly a pirate copy. I didn't get a refund. I continued to play it. I don't really view it as piracy. I don't think too many people would argue that I'm an unethical guy for doing this. If I got a refund or contested the sale on Paypal, I probably would consider it piracy to continue playing the copy.

Speevy said:
This is a good thread, and finally provides the perfect time to ask this question.

Why does most of this forum consider downloading Gears of War piracy, but playing Super Mario Brothers on your PSP not piracy.

Discuss.

if someone doesn't own the version of smb they are playing, it is piracy.

if someone does own the version of smb they are playing, it's not piracy but neither is downloading gears of war but why would you want to because if you already own it, it'd make more sense to make a backup of your own disc and play that?

CoachKevin · Jul 24, 2010

I think the more interesting discussion is, "When is it OK to pirate a game?"

For example, old arcade games that aren't available on digital download services or compilations. If I want to play the arcade version of Sunset Riders (not Genesis or SNES versions) I would have to track down a machine. With arcades becoming harder and harder to find, is it OK to download a rom and run through MAME on a MAME cabinet or PC?

disappeared · Jul 24, 2010

Dedication Through Light said:
Maybe they own SMB and consider their version on the PSP as a backup? Though I wonder, would Nintendo consider it piracy, lol

Of course they would. After all, that's one less copy of SMB they could have sold on the Virtual Console.

ULTROS! · Jul 24, 2010

Speaking of which, downloading abandonware isn't considered piracy right? I'm still slightly confused about abandonware.

Dedication Through Light · Jul 24, 2010

ULTROS! said:
Speaking of which, downloading abandonware isn't considered piracy right? I'm still slightly confused about abandonware.

your old avatar was so much better!, lol

Though what is abandonware?

Stumpokapow · Jul 24, 2010

Speevy said:
But they almost certainly don't

If you really believe that, go and call someone out for piracy. If you don't really believe that, you shouldn't insult people by association. With a qualifier like "almost certainly", your odds are pretty good, right? We'll do a 2:1 punishment. If you successfully call someone out for piracy, I'll ban them for a month. If you're wrong, I'll ban you for two.

and moreover Nintendo does consider it piracy.

Nintendo spent ten years arguing that NES emulators per se were piracy. GAF doesn't operate on EULA morality. *shrugs*

ULTROS! said:
Speaking of which, downloading abandonware isn't considered piracy right? I'm still slightly confused about abandonware.

The term "abandonware" refers to software that it is essentially impossible to buy. Sometimes it refers to games whose companies still exist (say EA's Bullfrog catalog) but the games are no longer for sale. Sometimes it refers to games where the companies no longer exist. In general, if something is "abandonware", it is piracy, but since no company gives a shit about it, many people also don't give a shit about it.

When I want to play an old PC game, I buy a new copy. If new copies are no longer sold, I buy a used copy. I have literally never wanted to play a game where I couldn't find a copy (new or used) for sale. If such a case did emerge, I'd evaluate it I guess?

disappeared · Jul 24, 2010

ULTROS! said:
Speaking of which, downloading abandonware isn't considered piracy right? I'm still slightly confused about abandonware.

Adandonware, to the best of my knowledge, is when the legal license (distribution, sales, etc) has expired, and the company has opted not to renew it. I don't know the legal ramifications, however.

TouchMyBox · Jul 24, 2010

ULTROS! said:
Buying a pirated copy? Simple: gaming is an expensive hobby, and since there are gamers who want to play these games, they have the option to buy the pirated version. Take my country for example, there are a lot of gamers but are opted to go for pirated software (since we are not really a very wealthy country).

If someone is going to pirate, they should do it properly. Piracy to me is somewhat annoying, but paying for piracy really gets on my nerves. I don't like the idea of people making a living on stealing shit other people made. I could almost understand if people are so ignorant/lazy that they can't type "Modern Honor of War Torrent" in their browsers and would rather pay somebody a few bucks to do it for them, but around where I live, I see people paying $30 for a pirated box-set for a TV show when they could just go out and buy the real thing for $60. Especially when the pirated copy is an inferior product, that makes no sense to me.

disappeared · Jul 24, 2010

TouchMyBox said:
If someone is going to pirate, they should do it properly. Piracy to me is somewhat annoying, but paying for piracy really gets on my nerves. I don't like the idea of people making a living on stealing shit other people made. I could almost understand if people are so ignorant/lazy that they can't type "Modern Honor of War Torrent" in their browsers and would rather pay somebody a few bucks to do it for them, but around where I live, I see people paying $30 for a pirated box-set for a TV show when they could just go out and buy the real thing for $60. Especially when the pirated copy is an inferior product, that makes no sense to me.

I once saw a vendor in the West Edmonton Mall selling those N64 plug-n-play controllers with several hundred ROMs dumped into it. For the life of me I had no idea how he hadn't been shut down.

MattyGrovesOrMe · Jul 24, 2010

Asking whether or not something is "considered piracy" is misguided - whose considerations are we prioritizing? GAF's considerations? Those of gamers in general? The Industry's?

The question should be whether those practices on the OP's list are legal or not. We can then question whether or not they should be.

BrainZEROX does this with France above. Many of the things on the list are technically illegal under the copyright laws of many regions.

ULTROS! · Jul 24, 2010

disappeared said:
I once saw a vendor in the West Edmonton Mall selling those N64 plug-n-play controllers with several hundred ROMs dumped into it. For the life of me I had no idea how he hadn't been shut down.

Piracy is pretty rampant in my country. Despite the numerous raids (you go to the area to investigate if such area is selling/using pirated software and confiscate the pirated materials and close the shop down), they will still continue popping-up no matter what.

morningbus · Jul 24, 2010

ULTROS! said:
Speaking of which, downloading abandonware isn't considered piracy right? I'm still slightly confused about abandonware.

Abandonware is kind of a made up term, actually. Even if a product is not officially released, someone still owns the copyright and you are potentially infringing their rights by downloading the software.

This is more from an American perspective, I should add. Your country's laws may vary.

ULTROS! · Jul 24, 2010

morningbus said:
Abandonware is kind of a made up term, actually. Even if a product is not officially released, someone still owns the copyright and you are potentially infringing their rights by downloading the software.

This is more from an American perspective, I should add. Your country's laws may vary.

I don't think we have any virtual laws/e-laws in my country (from what I know of, although it may or may not be related, having a pornographic industry is against the law).

GraveRobberX · Jul 24, 2010

TouchMyBox said:
And then there is buying a pirated copy (I will never understand why so many people do this)

Look at Craigslist, there are people offering up services of selling you burned games. Some people think paying $5-10 per burned disc is real good idea/money maker, someone else does the work for you and you enjoy cheating out the developers of there money from the game.
(1 thing I don't get, why do people think Games are made only for them?, they think their entitled to games when they buy a console/pc. Developers/Publishers are in the business of making money, but also giving you enjoyment for said money. Gaming is a habit, just like fishing, sports, etc., either you have the resources that you can still have that habit, if not you move the fuck on.)

Speevy · Jul 24, 2010

Stumpokapow said:
If you really believe that, go and call someone out for piracy. If you don't really believe that, you shouldn't insult people by association. With a qualifier like "almost certainly", your odds are pretty good, right? We'll do a 2:1 punishment. If you successfully call someone out for piracy, I'll ban them for a month. If you're wrong, I'll ban you for two.

I don't intend to call anyone out for anything. My comment didn't call for this escalation either.

If you want to discuss this matter via PM, please do so. I don't think the insinuation that people generally pirate games is some kind of witch hunt. And if anyone does, I'd say that person is naive.

PjotrStroganov · Jul 24, 2010

Mama Robotnik said:
[1] Purchasing a game NEW, then using a No CD crack because DRM/driver/compatability issues are causing you difficulties running from the disk?
[2] Purchasing a game NEW, then using a NO CD crack because you don't want to keep inserting and removing the disk?
[3] Purchasing a game NEW, then making a backup and playing from this to preserve your original purchase.
[4] Purchasing a game NEW, then letting a friend borrow this original?
[4a] Purchasing a game USED, then letting a friend borrow this original?
[4b] Purchasing a game NEW, making a backup, and letting your friend borrow your backup? (the original is still preserved and never used)
[4c] Purchasing a game USED, making a backup, and letting your friend borrow your backup? (the used original is still preserved and never used)
[5] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident and playing from your backup?
[6] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident and you make a copy of a friend's disk to continue playing?
[7] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident, and you download an ISO from a torrent site to continue playing?
[7a] Purchasing a game USED, your original is destroyed in an accident, and you download an ISO from a torrent site to replace it?
[8] Dumping a ROM from a cartridge you purchased a decade ago, then using various emulators and hardware to play this ROM?
[8a] Downloading a ROM dump from a torrent site of a game cartridge you purchased a decade ago?
[8b] Downloading a ROM dump from a torrent site of a game cartridge you purchased a decade ago, but have since lost?
[9] Downloading multiple ROM hacks of a retro game, when you have purchased the original game itself as part of a recent retro compilation disk.

Any of these options are morally right to me.

@People second guessing 7/7a. What if I buy a game new, download the iso (newsgroup, not sharing) and use it to install the game because it's more convenient. And now the original breaks, does that change anything? What is you opinion about still using the iso? How is this different from downloading the iso after the original breaks? How is this different from making a backup and use this after the original breaks?

Slavik81 · Jul 24, 2010

morningbus said:
Abandonware is kind of a made up term, actually. Even if a product is not officially released, someone still owns the copyright and you are potentially infringing their rights by downloading the software.

This is more from an American perspective, I should add. Your country's laws may vary.

It's not that there's no such thing as abandonware, but rather that copyright still applies to abandoned works since copyright requires no action on the part of the holder to maintain.

However, if they really have abandoned it, it becomes unlikely that they will enforce their copyright, which is something that does require action on the part of the holder.

Somnid · Jul 24, 2010

This is a question you should know the answer. Are you disingenuous trying to acquire something without payment or circumventing normal channels of acquisition in order to suit your own specific desires? Perhaps there are actions that are more severe than others but I think that generally covers it. It's maybe more important to just make sure you are supporting the creators on the content as much as you can rather than trying to figure out whether an action is absolutely in the right.

The more interesting question is whether you feel giving money or support to people and organizations that promote or simply don't care whether they are catalysts to, or do not minimize their contributions piracy is really the right thing to do.

TouchMyBox · Jul 24, 2010

disappeared said:
I once saw a vendor in the West Edmonton Mall selling those N64 plug-n-play controllers with several hundred ROMs dumped into it. For the life of me I had no idea how he hadn't been shut down.

I see the RCMP raid these places once in a blue moon only to see them pop back up the next week. :lol

faceless007 · Jul 24, 2010

disappeared said:
Adandonware, to the best of my knowledge, is when the legal license (distribution, sales, etc) has expired, and the company has opted not to renew it. I don't know the legal ramifications, however.

I'm not sure what you mean by "license." The operative question is copyrighted or not copyrighted, and "abandonware" are games that are still under copyright but the owner doesn't know/doesn't care/is tied up in legal issues/otherwise isn't enforcing the copyright. Legally, it's no different from pirating Halo 3, but you might argue that it's a different ethical category if the company isn't around anymore.

Clipper · Jul 24, 2010

Personally, I don't really assign the legal matters to it as it's different in every country. For example, in Australia, the following is legal:

I buy a music CD, transfer it to another media format (e.g., put it my iPhone), then lend (but not rent or sell) the CD to a friend and I can continue to listen to the songs on my iPhone while my friend uses the CD, or vice versa. There are restrictions, in that you can only have one copy per format (so you can't copy the same CD to two iPhones), but I find it amazing that they consider it OK to use all your formats simultaneously and even allow lending of those alternate formats. However, this 'format shifting' process only applies to music content. Any other content cannot be copied for any reason whatsoever from a legal viewpoint.

Now, that law is not piracy, it's just copyright infringement. I consider piracy on a moral scale and mine is more on the stricter side. I do format shift my Wii games (which does violate copyright law in Australia, unfortunately) to a hard drive for the massive convenience and improved features that it allows, but I do not distribute those copies in any way, so I am not harming anyone on a financial standpoint.

I do not condone the downloading of Wii games from websites, even if you own the game already, as you are then supporting the actions of the uploader, who is most definitely a pirate and arguably harming the industry. Emulation of older systems where you couldn't make your own backups might be the only way to justify this sort of action taking my stricter view, but there is much more freedom to adjust the scale there for sure.

This has actually caused me some very problematic issues. I have had three of my original discs go missing recently (I believe stolen), and while I have backups of the games on my drive and could continue to play them, I am not playing them and either deleting them or repurchasing the games. Am I crazy for doing this? Perhaps, but the games I am purchasing again are good enough to pay twice for and it does make it easier for me to justify the copyright infringement involved.

It probably comes down to a different moral judgement for each person, though. I can respect the 'try-before-you-buy' type downloaders, as long as they practice what they preach and buy the game before they get anywhere near finishing it. I'd never do this due to my own stricter moral feelings of not supporting the uploader pirates, but I won't call their moral judgement wrong. It's just a pity that there's so many people out there that will just blatantly pirate everything and then lie to you about it to cover things up.

The tl;dr version: Piracy is not really a legal thing (unlike copyright infringement), it's moral. Make a personally justifiable moral line for yourself in the sand and stick to it and you're probably doing OK.

ipukespiders · Jul 24, 2010

CoachKevin said:
I think the more interesting discussion is, "When is it OK to pirate a game?"

For example, old arcade games that aren't available on digital download services or compilations. If I want to play the arcade version of Sunset Riders (not Genesis or SNES versions) I would have to track down a machine. With arcades becoming harder and harder to find, is it OK to download a rom and run through MAME on a MAME cabinet or PC?

Not sure why that would be OK.
It's not like we have a right to play something just because we want to.

People often mention that type of senario:
- Game is out of print.
- Person is willing to buy it, but no one is selling it.
Well then, too bad, you don't get to play it. Tough.
Are we that self entitled?

Also, I don't get to make "backups" of other goods. Drunk buddy throws my novel in the campfire when we are camping so I make him give me the money to buy a new one.
Things get destroyed, accidents happen. Why should we get a free pass?

The above is just a perspective.

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