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Question for GAF - When does it become piracy?
- Thread starter Mama Robotnik
- Start date
Do you answer everything you can't understand with "What?" Why don't you try to specify what you don't understand instead of continually responding like a child.usea said:
It's pretty simple: if you buy Chrono Trigger for SNES, you don't have the right to own every version of Chrono Trigger released in the future. If you own it for the SNES and download it for the DS, you're pirating the DS game. That is how the law of the US works. Understand?
I'm not even going to bother arguing with you about this anymore because you clearly have no clue about the law and are probably a pirate. Let me just quote some of the stupid shit you've said already:
usea said:
usea said:
People with insane entitlement complexes like you are the reason why we have horrible DRM and the industry up in arms over piracy.usea said:
No CD cracks definitely seem like shaky ground as a result of their origins, but they are certainly useful. Having to insert a disc in your PC every time you want to play can become a huge hassle in some cases. A lot of modern games rectify this with online activation, which I'm cool with, but requiring a CD at this point is simply irritating.
Freyjadour
Member
I'm just gonna chime in and say that we aren't talking about what is or isn't legal, we're talking about what people think is morally ok.DaBuddaDa said:
Also he should have purchased 5 copies of Chrono Trigger DS.
I'm responding in kind. It's like you're not making any attempt to comprehend what others are saying. Shouting into a void.DaBuddaDa said:
Legality is irrelevant. It does not define what is right and wrong. It does not have any bearing at all on this discussion or the realities of choosing to pirate a game or not. It's up to an individual's morals. I made it clear what I was talking about, and you tried to 'counter' my beliefs with your interpretation of the law. So: "What?"
SiegfriedFM
Member
Slightly related. There are those game collections for PC being sold with maybe 100 Amiga or C64 games, through legit channels. Usually in bargain bins. I'm assuming there's some kind of emulation going on, and it's quite possible that the games are simply ROM files stuck on the CD with a proprietary loader.
If I bought a collection like this and put it in my shelf, would it still be piracy if I went and got the same games online and played them in a better emulator? Is there a difference between that and just copying the ROM files off the CD into whatever emulator you have? It's the same idea as dumping ROMs off cartridges but it's something everyone can do. Few people have the gear to dump their own games.
I too would like a way to buy officially licensed ROMs, but currently there's way too many obstacles and competing services. I can buy these games off Virtual Console, these games off Steam, these games off PSN etc, but I can only play them on a single piece of hardware. It's the same problem that plagued music downloads with proprietary formats that weren't compatible with everything. Now, of course, many places sell pure MP3s with no strings attached, which is how I want it.
The perfect solution would be to have a multi-format emulator that can be bought for all applicable hardware, that plays all the games you throw at it. Like, you go and buy Sunset Riders and Warzard for $5 each and put on your Game Collector account and play on a $20 emulator you bought for PC. And then when you feel like playing on your TV, the same emulator setup is available on Xbox 360.
Of course, just making a legal (WinUAE style) emulator for all kinds of hardware is basically impossible to begin with since Nintendo would never license their hardware, etc.
If I bought a collection like this and put it in my shelf, would it still be piracy if I went and got the same games online and played them in a better emulator? Is there a difference between that and just copying the ROM files off the CD into whatever emulator you have? It's the same idea as dumping ROMs off cartridges but it's something everyone can do. Few people have the gear to dump their own games.
I too would like a way to buy officially licensed ROMs, but currently there's way too many obstacles and competing services. I can buy these games off Virtual Console, these games off Steam, these games off PSN etc, but I can only play them on a single piece of hardware. It's the same problem that plagued music downloads with proprietary formats that weren't compatible with everything. Now, of course, many places sell pure MP3s with no strings attached, which is how I want it.
The perfect solution would be to have a multi-format emulator that can be bought for all applicable hardware, that plays all the games you throw at it. Like, you go and buy Sunset Riders and Warzard for $5 each and put on your Game Collector account and play on a $20 emulator you bought for PC. And then when you feel like playing on your TV, the same emulator setup is available on Xbox 360.
Of course, just making a legal (WinUAE style) emulator for all kinds of hardware is basically impossible to begin with since Nintendo would never license their hardware, etc.
...what?DaBuddaDa said:
Seriously. What are you talking about?
I'd like to know where you're coming from. Do you feel like you fall in a particular place here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development
There is the moral aspect, and the legal aspect. IMO, its not moral wrong to download and emulate that NES cart you have, due to having no way to dump it. But legally, in the US, you aren't supposed to do it, you are supposed to dump the rom your self.SiegfriedFM said:
But with that CD, you most likely can just extract the roms right from it without a problem.
Also, you can legally make a NES Emulator without a word from Nintendo. The main problem is anything from the 5th gen and on, since a lot of later systems have BIOS, which are protected under copyright laws, which are good till we are dead, instead of Patent Law which only last 20 years.
usea said:
This. This is illegal, highly immoral, detrimental to the industry and indicates that you feel entitled to a product because you bought a similar one years ago. I think you're unequivocally wrong on this matter, with the law on my side, not yours. I don't think I need to crap up this thread any more with this back-and-forth that won't lead anywhere.usea said:
illegal: irrelevantDaBuddaDa said:
immoral: I disagree
detrimental to the industry: wrong
entitled because bought similar: not similar; same
law on your side: irrelevant
crap up this thread: wrong. Discussion is the whole point of the thread. If you want to treat this as a "this is the Truth. I'm Right" high-horse dumping ground, then you've already proclaimed your Facts and you can leave. Otherwise let's get to the heart of the matter.
Related question: Do you think it's immoral to break the law?
Speevy said:
He's already done that. Go reread the thread.
People need to chill out. He's clearly stating that he would download whichever version of the game is more easily available to him (hence the word convenient) given the fact that both games are the same with no upgrades or modifications.
Almost any game will work on a modern PC so I'm not sure if jvc's post is all that relevant. I suppose in some cases it would be but that's no reason say that usea is morally wrong in all cases.
edit: jvm actually has something to that effect in his post already so it's all good.
illegal: irrelevant
Irrelevant until you get caught. Then you'll think it's very relevant.
immoral: I disagree
Agree to disagree here.
detrimental to the industry: wrong
You use the same argument as any pirate: "I wasn't going to buy it anyway so its not hurting anyone." This argument is too simplified because you don't know for sure you weren't going to buy it just as well as you'd be sure you would buy it. On many occasions I didn't think I'd buy a game and changed my mind later after a change of heart or a price drop or a good demo. If I had pirated those purchases originally none of those sales would have ever been made.
entitled because bought similar: not similar; same
It's not the same, the new version doesn't come on PC CDROM, it comes through Steam and all of the benefits and services that come with it, and is probably published by a new publisher who spent their own money in order to provide you the opportunity to play game again and deserve your support for providing you with that.
law on your side: irrelevant
See 1st response.
Related question: Do you think it's immoral to break the law?
Not even gonna open that bag of worms right now. Generally, yes, it is immoral. The law is highly based upon what society agrees is right and wrong. 99% of the time the law gets it right.
Irrelevant until you get caught. Then you'll think it's very relevant.
immoral: I disagree
Agree to disagree here.
detrimental to the industry: wrong
You use the same argument as any pirate: "I wasn't going to buy it anyway so its not hurting anyone." This argument is too simplified because you don't know for sure you weren't going to buy it just as well as you'd be sure you would buy it. On many occasions I didn't think I'd buy a game and changed my mind later after a change of heart or a price drop or a good demo. If I had pirated those purchases originally none of those sales would have ever been made.
entitled because bought similar: not similar; same
It's not the same, the new version doesn't come on PC CDROM, it comes through Steam and all of the benefits and services that come with it, and is probably published by a new publisher who spent their own money in order to provide you the opportunity to play game again and deserve your support for providing you with that.
law on your side: irrelevant
See 1st response.
Related question: Do you think it's immoral to break the law?
Not even gonna open that bag of worms right now. Generally, yes, it is immoral. The law is highly based upon what society agrees is right and wrong. 99% of the time the law gets it right.
DaBuddaDa said:
Is this true at all? I assumed that if you download a steam version of a game you would only be able to run an executable and that's the end of it. Can you actually integrated pirated games into steam?
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
edit: and in regards to the first response in DaBuddaDa's post about legality, it's obvious usea means that it is irrelevant to this discussion.
Like I said before -- pretty clearly I think -- a game which I feel I have no right to play. For example, a game I didn't buy. Although I would feel okay playing games on somebody else's steam account (only one person can play at a time).Speevy said:
I don't know where you're getting this from. I said I would have no qualms downloading a game I already own. I feel that a re-release of the same game is the same game. Despite what Disney would have you think.DaBuddaDa said:
You and I don't see the exchange of goods and services the same way. You're willing to pay twice for something just because they ask you to. I'm not.DaBuddaDa said:
Sure, the law is sort of based on what we agree to be right and wrong. In a way. But for non-criminal matters it's more based on what the people who have the most money want. And it's also sort of a feedback loop. What people believe is right and wrong is immensely influenced by the law they grow up with. If we grew up in a society where charging money for food was punished harshly, many of us would feel differently about many topics.DaBuddaDa said:
Freyjadour
Member
And the super anti-piracy nonsense has begun in earnest. Was decent while it lasted folks.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
[1] Purchasing a game NEW, then using a No CD crack because DRM/driver/compatability issues are causing you difficulties running from the disk?
no
[2] Purchasing a game NEW, then using a NO CD crack because you don't want to keep inserting and removing the disk?
no
[3] Purchasing a game NEW, then making a backup and playing from this to preserve your original purchase.
no
[4] Purchasing a game NEW, then letting a friend borrow this original?
no
[4a] Purchasing a game USED, then letting a friend borrow this original?
no
[4b] Purchasing a game NEW, making a backup, and letting your friend borrow your backup? (the original is still preserved and never used)
no
[4c] Purchasing a game USED, making a backup, and letting your friend borrow your backup? (the used original is still preserved and never used)
no
[5] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident and playing from your backup?
no
[6] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident and you make a copy of a friend's disk to continue playing?
no
[7] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident, and you download an ISO from a torrent site to continue playing?
no
[7a] Purchasing a game USED, your original is destroyed in an accident, and you download an ISO from a torrent site to replace it?
no
[8] Dumping a ROM from a cartridge you purchased a decade ago, then using various emulators and hardware to play this ROM?
no
[8a] Downloading a ROM dump from a torrent site of a game cartridge you purchased a decade ago?
no
[8b] Downloading a ROM dump from a torrent site of a game cartridge you purchased a decade ago, but have since lost?
no
[9] Downloading multiple ROM hacks of a retro game, when you have purchased the original game itself as part of a recent retro compilation disk.
no
my opinions on how it should be.
Probably most of the above is illegal, but if I didn't miss something, I paid money to play this game to the company. My continued enjoyment of this game is probably going to benefit them further when I tell people 'it's still great!'
Also retro gaming, downloading those games that we loved 20 years ago? Should be allowed, that shits going to die otherwise.
Remakes/reimaginings or whatever is different.
Further, Steam is winning at how game sales should be.
Also, all the people that may or may not have come in here and started wishing death/cancer on pirates, I bet they all wank to porn they don't pay for. just saying.
If it's the exact same game that he paid for, I don't see it as 'highly immoral' but 'technically illegal' (or possibly 'blatantly illegal')
no
[2] Purchasing a game NEW, then using a NO CD crack because you don't want to keep inserting and removing the disk?
no
[3] Purchasing a game NEW, then making a backup and playing from this to preserve your original purchase.
no
[4] Purchasing a game NEW, then letting a friend borrow this original?
no
[4a] Purchasing a game USED, then letting a friend borrow this original?
no
[4b] Purchasing a game NEW, making a backup, and letting your friend borrow your backup? (the original is still preserved and never used)
no
[4c] Purchasing a game USED, making a backup, and letting your friend borrow your backup? (the used original is still preserved and never used)
no
[5] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident and playing from your backup?
no
[6] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident and you make a copy of a friend's disk to continue playing?
no
[7] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident, and you download an ISO from a torrent site to continue playing?
no
[7a] Purchasing a game USED, your original is destroyed in an accident, and you download an ISO from a torrent site to replace it?
no
[8] Dumping a ROM from a cartridge you purchased a decade ago, then using various emulators and hardware to play this ROM?
no
[8a] Downloading a ROM dump from a torrent site of a game cartridge you purchased a decade ago?
no
[8b] Downloading a ROM dump from a torrent site of a game cartridge you purchased a decade ago, but have since lost?
no
[9] Downloading multiple ROM hacks of a retro game, when you have purchased the original game itself as part of a recent retro compilation disk.
no
my opinions on how it should be.
Probably most of the above is illegal, but if I didn't miss something, I paid money to play this game to the company. My continued enjoyment of this game is probably going to benefit them further when I tell people 'it's still great!'
Also retro gaming, downloading those games that we loved 20 years ago? Should be allowed, that shits going to die otherwise.
Remakes/reimaginings or whatever is different.
Further, Steam is winning at how game sales should be.
Also, all the people that may or may not have come in here and started wishing death/cancer on pirates, I bet they all wank to porn they don't pay for. just saying.
If it's the exact same game that he paid for, I don't see it as 'highly immoral' but 'technically illegal' (or possibly 'blatantly illegal')