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[GDGF]

Yeah? Well, you fight like a cow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl2FVGtyUN8

 

[DaBuddaDa]

Firstly, these contradict each other. What's the point of being able to make a backup if you're not allowed to use it?

Because in one situation, there is no lost sale, and in the other there is a lost sale. A "backup" costs the company selling you the game a sale. It doesn't make a lot of practical sense (and lots of legal issues don't make practical sense), but it's like marijuana: you may legally have the seeds, but you may not sell, grow or smoke it. Like a backup, you can make and have them, but you cannot use them as "backups." So you answer your question straight, there is no point to making a backup.

 

[Pikelet]

If crime = victimlessm then i say go for it. This includes downloading abandonware and no-cd cracks.

To the people who think its ok to to use a no-cd crack but not ok to download a game if the disc gets destroyed: if you lost a disc of a game that you had already been playing with a no-cd crack, would you buy another copy? I sure as hell wouldnt.

 

[onken]

Because in one situation, there is no lost sale, and in the other there is a lost sale. A "backup" costs the company selling you the game a sale. It doesn't make a lot of practical sense (and lots of legal issues don't make practical sense), but it's like marijuana: you may legally have the seeds, but you may not sell, grow or smoke it. Like a backup, you can make and have them, but you cannot use them as "backups." So you answer your question straight, there is no point to making a backup.

But oh no no, as we're so frequently told, you are purchasing a license to play the software, not the game itself. Said license can't be lost or broken as long as you have proof of purchase.

 

[Yeef]

I read an interesting essay a few weeks ago that's somewhat related called What Color Are Your Bits?

 

[Cheerilee]

I think piracy runs rampant throughout the world, but I have no desire to make such accusations.

Further, why does a statement so obvious elicit such a defensive response?

It's like "Hey a lot of people do drugs."

and someone responding "You can't prove that! Unless you can prove that, SHUT UP!"

It's a bizarre way to approach an issue which should be wide open.

A better metaphor would be GAF having a hemp studies group. The cardinal rule of the group is that it studies the wider applications of hemp, excluding the smoking of pot. Many of it's members are expert biologists and chemists who have no interest in psychedelic drugs, and have passed numerous drug tests with flying colors. The smoking of pot actually bothers these people, because the laws made to fight that activity have set their research back decades (there are some who blame the anti-smoking laws though, not the smokers, and others who believe that even the smoking of pot could be a valuable field of study).

Now someone asks what the difference is between a drug user and a member of the hemp studies group (suggesting that there isn't one)? Unless one of those members happens to covertly be a drug user, there is no connection. If you want to say "LOL potheads" when looking at this group, you better be prepared to back it up with something more than "everybody does it", because the hemp studies group most certainly does not.

 

[Datwheezy]

The term "abandonware" refers to software that it is essentially impossible to buy. Sometimes it refers to games whose companies still exist (say EA's Bullfrog catalog) but the games are no longer for sale. Sometimes it refers to games where the companies no longer exist. In general, if something is "abandonware", it is piracy, but since no company gives a shit about it, many people also don't give a shit about it.

When I want to play an old PC game, I buy a new copy. If new copies are no longer sold, I buy a used copy. I have literally never wanted to play a game where I couldn't find a copy (new or used) for sale. If such a case did emerge, I'd evaluate it I guess?

My only problem with this is that the legal route often isnt the moral/sensible one. If someone wants to play Grim Fandango, they currently have 2 options: Download it illegally, or buy a used copy. One is legal, the other isnt. But in both cases, neither Tim Schafer nor Lucas Arts are making any money off that sale. I'd much rather have the person download the game illegally for free, and then take that money they were going to spend and buy a Lucas Arts or Double Fine t-shirt or some other merchandise, or even go and buy Psychonauts, Brutal Legend, or the Monkey Island remakes. Is that legal. No, not at all. But I think it is morally the correct thing to do.

Spoiler

Hopefully they remake Grim Fandango and put it on steam someday so that this example is no longer necessary.

 

[Nemesis121]

1, 2, 3, have done and don't see it as Piracy, my DvD rom died and had to use a no CD hack to play CoD4, also I hate CD check it's pathetic, this is why I stop buying retail games and went to Steam.

 

[onken]

My only problem with this is that the legal route often isnt the moral/sensible one. If someone wants to play Grim Fandango, they currently have 2 options: Download it illegally, or buy a used copy. One is legal, the other isnt. But in both cases, neither Tim Schafer nor Lucas Arts are making any money off that sale. I'd much rather have the person download the game illegally for free, and then take that money they were going to spend and buy a Lucas Arts or Double Fine t-shirt or some other merchandise, or even go and buy Psychonauts, Brutal Legend, or the Monkey Island remakes. Is that legal. No, not at all. But I think it is morally the correct thing to do.

Spoiler

Hopefully they remake Grim Fandango and put it on steam someday so that this example is no longer necessary.

Although I actually agree with you, one could argue knock-on effect. If everybody torrented old games instead of buying used copies, people might be less inclined to purchase the games new in the first place, knowing that they have zero resale value.

 

[Pociask]

Although I actually agree with you, one could argue knock-on effect. If everybody torrented old games instead of buying used copies, people might be less inclined to purchase the games new in the first place, knowing that they have zero resale value.

I would add that it also takes away an important piece of information for publishers. If they can say hey, Grim Fandango is doing great on the second-hand market, there's still a lot of support for it, maybe we should make a sequel! If you just buy a Lucas Arts t-shirt, the publisher may just say, hell yeah, people LOVE Force Unleashed, let's do trilogy! And if you illegally download, the expression of support is much weaker - they can say yeah, people are illegally downloading it, but would they actually pay for it?

I hasten to add that as I stated earlier, the secondary market in video games is still not well developed, so this indicator is not as strong as it could be.

 

[teh_pwn]

Merely watching a friend play his game without inputting your activation code and having a constant internet connection to monitor usage with DRM software is nothing short of genocide.

 

[dacuk]

Initially I thought piracy was playing for a game you didn't buy, and that its developer does not gain any money of it.

But what happened to games you were not supposed to play?
E.G.:
If you play a fan-translated game of a system that was not released on your country / market (let's say, a game for the PC-FX) 15 years after it was released to its intended market. The manufacturer had received already the money for all the game copies sold, there were no way the system was released on your country at the time of the game released, and now, it is not even taken into account by any current platform holder for emulation purposes.

What do you think about it GAF, is it piracy for pure copyright-related act, or no-piracy because the manufacturer was not even thinking on including your country as part of its market, looking for any possible customers on your place?

 

[Datwheezy]

I would add that it also takes away an important piece of information for publishers. If they can say hey, Grim Fandango is doing great on the second-hand market, there's still a lot of support for it, maybe we should make a sequel! If you just buy a Lucas Arts t-shirt, the publisher may just say, hell yeah, people LOVE Force Unleashed, let's do trilogy! And if you illegally download, the expression of support is much weaker - they can say yeah, people are illegally downloading it, but would they actually pay for it?

I hasten to add that as I stated earlier, the secondary market in video games is still not well developed, so this indicator is not as strong as it could be.

I would agree with this, but like you said, the used market is nowhere near being developed to a point of this happening, especially in regards to old pc games, whose sales are almost entirely made up of amazon marketplace and ebay transactions. Until the used market starts to be utilized in a manner even close to this, I still prefer to be giving my money to the developer/license holder in some way.

 

[Rainier]

I'm a little mystified as to why anyone who thinks playing Super Mario Brothers on your PSP is perfectly ok, but loaning a game to your friend when you're done with it isn't.

So to name names, I'm gonna have to say I totally agree with Speevy.

 

[speedpop]

I'm a little mystified as to why anyone who thinks playing Super Mario Brothers on your PSP is perfectly ok, but loaning a game to your friend when you're done with it isn't.

GAF is synonymous with hypocrisy.

 

[mavs]

I would add that it also takes away an important piece of information for publishers. If they can say hey, Grim Fandango is doing great on the second-hand market, there's still a lot of support for it, maybe we should make a sequel! If you just buy a Lucas Arts t-shirt, the publisher may just say, hell yeah, people LOVE Force Unleashed, let's do trilogy! And if you illegally download, the expression of support is much weaker - they can say yeah, people are illegally downloading it, but would they actually pay for it?

I hasten to add that as I stated earlier, the secondary market in video games is still not well developed, so this indicator is not as strong as it could be.

It's probably easier to measure seeders/leechers on torrents (and total downloads if any torrent sites track that) than to track every offer and sale in second hand markets. If the volume is tiny (as it would be for old or expensive games) it may well be impossible without data directly from Amazon/ebay.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

As long as you don't have two people playing it in two places at once, I don't think I see a problem with it.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

Is the OP asking for a moral or a legal definition?

 

[ElectricBlue187]

steam has made it far too easy to buy games to have any reason to pirate unless the game is simply not for sale anywhere and/or it will not run on your OS unless it's been modified by pirates

 

[adamsappel]

What degree of possession is required to be considered "owning"? A NES game you got as a kid, and vaguely suspect it's at your parent's house, maybe in the basement, but Mom did have that garage sale last year... Or do you need to be able to pull the game off your shelf?

 

[Drkirby]

Downloading a game that you don't have a physical copy on hand to.

 

[LegatoB]

I think piracy runs rampant throughout the world, but I have no desire to make such accusations.

Further, why does a statement so obvious elicit such a defensive response?

It's like "Hey a lot of people do drugs."

and someone responding "You can't prove that! Unless you can prove that, SHUT UP!"

It's a bizarre way to approach an issue which should be wide open.

A better metaphor would be GAF having a hemp studies group. The cardinal rule of the group is that it studies the wider applications of hemp, excluding the smoking of pot. Many of it's members are expert biologists and chemists who have no interest in psychedelic drugs, and have passed numerous drug tests with flying colors. The smoking of pot actually bothers these people, because the laws made to fight that activity have set their research back decades (there are some who blame the anti-smoking laws though, not the smokers, and others who believe that even the smoking of pot could be a valuable field of study).

Now someone asks what the difference is between a drug user and a member of the hemp studies group (suggesting that there isn't one)? Unless one of those members happens to covertly be a drug user, there is no connection. If you want to say "LOL potheads" when looking at this group, you better be prepared to back it up with something more than "everybody does it", because the hemp studies group most certainly does not.

Perhaps more to the point, here's the pragmatic reasoning:

NeoGAF has a permaban-on-sight policy for anyone admitting to piracy. It does not follow, however, that the NeoGAF administration is interested in carrying out piracy witch hunts, which is what these threads threaten to turn into whenever someone starts throwing out accusations. Not only are they often a monstrous waste of time, but in many cases people are basically asked to argue to impossible: "prove you didn't steal this game." Are they saying they don't have a camera to take a picture of the game in its case with the words "Amirox is my daddy" scrawled on a napkin in the frame because they pirated the game and don't have the original disc, or because they really don't have a functioning digital camera?

It makes things a lot more pleasant for everyone if we just don't go there, hence Stumpokapow's offer.

 

[LegatoB]

By the way, I find the reactions to the OP's points [7] and [7a] interesting. Not the people saying it's piracy, but the people who say it's okay as long as you don't share it with anyone else, like turning off uploading on Bittorrent. If you believe that it's absolutely wrong to participate in the illegal duplication of copyrighted works under any circumstances, then you should have already rejected this one out-of-hand as piracy. But the rest of you, how do you get around this hangup?

Can I safely guess that most of you hold the opinion that someone downloading a game that they did not legally acquire an official copy of is "piracy?" If so, I think I can also safely state that you probably hold that distributing a duplicate of a game, made from the original disc or a bootleg copy, to someone who does not have legal access to an original is also "piracy." This obviously includes peer-to-peer filesharing networks, and people downloading games off of Web sites, Usenet groups, etc.

So when did it suddenly become "OK" for you to benefit from something that you hold to illegal, if not immoral entirely? Sure, your intentions are benign, but you can't trust anyone else on that torrent -- that's why you refuse to help them get the rest of the files they're sharing with you. But you didn't stop to think about where the files came from in the first place, have you? You certainly didn't if you argued it was acceptable, given the beliefs above, to download a backup from a newsgroup share. The uploaded copy you're duplicating is just as illegal as any copy you'd create by uploading in a torrent.

Is the distinction finer than suggested above? Is it okay as long as I don't make any more illegal copies, even if I'm mooching off of someone else's illegal copy? What's the deal here, guys?

 

[Speevy]

the NeoGAF administration is interested in carrying out piracy witch hunts, which is what these threads threaten to turn into whenever someone starts throwing out accusations..

I'm certainly glad that didn't happen then.

What this thread does have however are varying definitions of what piracy is, and is not. Some conform only to the Neogaf terms of service, while others are more in line with what the console manufacturers would rather see.

In any case, no one is admitting to anything, because an attitude translated into specifics could be misconstrued, and no one is accusing anyone of anything, because as you said it serves no one.

This thread doesn't require me or anything I've posted here, as I feel the responses have more than articulated anything I could have been trying to say. Sometimes people need to take a little step back and entertain the idea that not all posts contain a hidden agenda, and simple-minded sentiments in opposition of piracy are not intended, nor will they ever succeed in curbing consumer rights.

Someone steals a game, they suck. Period.

 

[a Master Ninja]

As arcade machines rot in landfills with their boards corroding away, I'm happy knowing that somewhere out there the people that want to play The Simpsons arcade game can.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Downloading a game that you don't have a physical copy on hand to.

XBLA, PSN, WiiWare and all DD services = piracy

 

[Speevy]

As arcade machines rot in landfills with their boards corroding away, I'm happy knowing that somewhere out there the people that want to play The Simpsons arcade game can.

Why on earth has someone not released this on XBLA or PSN?

 

[a Master Ninja]

Why on earth has someone not released this on XBLA or PSN?

The game is no doubt trapped in licensing hell, and will probably never be made available for purchase ever. For the sake of preservation, I'm glad games in those situations will never disappear off the face of the Earth.

 

[jgkspsx]

Copyright laws have little to no bearing on morality and vice-versa.

If what you're doing is potentially contributing to somebody losing his or her job, you're almost certainly in the wrong.
If you're downloading a game you obtained legally and can still play on another device, I'm not going to get upset.
If there's no way to give money to the company that created it for the game or software you're using, then I'm really not going to get upset.

Regarding "abandonware" and unreleased/prototype games: Franz Kafka on his deathbed told his friend Max Brod to burn all his unpublished works. Brod ignored him and published Amerika, The Castle, and The Trial. Legally wrong and unjustifiable, morally right, IMO.

 

[Dreamwriter]

It's piracy once you lose the eye and start wearing a patch.

Anyways, here's the problem with the idea of "Abandonware" from another country that never got brought over and translated. What if next year Nintendo suddenly actually did that - they translate Mother 3, and release it on a 3DS Virtual Console in 2D. It's sales would definitely be a LOT lower than they could have been, because the audience who wanted it the most already got their pirate copies with fan translations. This also applies to non-translated games, Nintendo's VC does have a few 20 year old games that never made it to the US, even a few PC Engine games.

This also works the same with other "abandonware" - if you went and pirated Ultima III today, and in 4 months EA re-released it, chances are you wouldn't buy it, though you may have if you hadn't been able to find it online. And also, it may actually be for sale in some format you aren't aware of - an Ultima Collection, maybe on Steam or Good old Games.

 

[Cynar]

In my opinion, purchasing the game new/used and doing whatever you like is not piracy at all (thus 1-7a is a no for me) as long as you do not distribute the modified/burned/copied game for personal benefits (like selling it).

Of course, one of my definitions of piracy is simply purchasing a game new, then making multiple backups, then distributing/selling it for personal benefits.

Regarding ROMs, not so sure yet though, will need to think about it.

pretty much what I agree with and is fair

 

[Ephemeris]

wait, what?

can i get a show of hands on this?

He kinda lost me there. :lol

 

[jgkspsx]

What if next year Nintendo suddenly actually did that - they translate Mother 3, and release it on a 3DS Virtual Console in 2D. It's sales would definitely be a LOT lower than they could have been, because the audience who wanted it the most already got their pirate copies with fan translations.

I think you picked one of the worst examples for a valid point. I think the majority of Mother 3 players at present would be all over an official English release. Many of them purchased the JP release, as well, which is why it sells for such ridiculous prices now.

 

[autobzooty]

Does losing a physical game count as a loss of ownership? What if you know for sure it's in the house somewhere? :lol

Serious question, though.

 

[GC|Simon]

For me, installing a no CD crack or something like that is NOT piracy. However, I don't play that much PC in General. I think it is okay, to buy one copy and to play it in LAN mode with your brother or something like that. This should be allowed.

It is also no problem to borrow the game a friend. However, it is piracy, when you buy a game, copy it and give it a way while you continue to play the game.

 

[Burai]

It's piracy once you lose the eye and start wearing a patch.

Anyways, here's the problem with the idea of "Abandonware" from another country that never got brought over and translated. What if next year Nintendo suddenly actually did that - they translate Mother 3, and release it on a 3DS Virtual Console in 2D. It's sales would definitely be a LOT lower than they could have been, because the audience who wanted it the most already got their pirate copies with fan translations. This also applies to non-translated games, Nintendo's VC does have a few 20 year old games that never made it to the US, even a few PC Engine games.

This also works the same with other "abandonware" - if you went and pirated Ultima III today, and in 4 months EA re-released it, chances are you wouldn't buy it, though you may have if you hadn't been able to find it online. And also, it may actually be for sale in some format you aren't aware of - an Ultima Collection, maybe on Steam or Good old Games.

But this is very much a double edged sword. Nintendo are just as much to blame for the piracy of Mother 3 as the end user. There is real demand for the game and they were and still are completely unwilling to meet that demand.

So as an Earthbound fan, what choice do I have to play this eagerly awaited game? Just wait forever in the hope that Nintendo change their mind?

To play the complete devils advocate here, Nintendo have already said that having to pay licenses for everything in Earthbound would mean the VC release would likely lose money. With that being the case, users pirating the game will be more profitable for Nintendo than properly releasing it. Food for thought...

A Master Ninja is totally right. There are so many games lost for so many reasons that we can only play because of piracy. Whilst the scene undoubtedly takes so much away from the contemporary industry, it also does a hell of a lot to keep the history of this business alive.

Fast forward to 20 years from now, we'll be glad someone went to the trouble of dumping and cataloguing every GBA, DS and Wii game.

 

[StarEye]

When all the three trials have been completed

 

[opticalmace]

Does losing a physical game count as a loss of ownership? What if you know for sure it's in the house somewhere? :lol

Serious question, though.

If you forgot where you parked you car do you no longer own it?

 

[Fakto]

Well, in some decent countries, with logical laws, piracy is well defined by one word: Profit.

If there's no intention of money profit, there is no piracy.

Downloading for free any sort of material is a way of sharing property and culture spreading, and that's covered as a basic right in the constitution [of some countries].

 

[DiscoJer]

Well, in some decent countries, with logical laws, piracy is well defined by one word: Profit.

If there's no intention of money profit, there is no piracy.

Downloading for free any sort of material is a way of sharing property and culture spreading, and that's covered as a basic right in the constitution [of some countries].

That's counterfeiting. Selling a copy of a product they don't have the rights to (or using the name of).

And why would anybody actually make something, if they can't profit (or even just break even) from their work? Maybe it's great for countries that don't make anything, but there are very few (if any) of those.

 

[Fakto]

And why would anybody actually make something, if they can't profit (or even just break even) from their work? Maybe it's great for countries that don't make anything, but there are very few (if any) of those.

Well, you are just assuming that, since you can borrow something, you will never actually buy it.
Cassettes recording radio songs didn't stop the fans from buying the originals. Or going to the concerts. Did they ?

 

[Future]

If you obtain a copy without legally acquiring it, it's piracy. If you create a back up, and share it any way so that someone else obtains a copy without legally acquiring it, that's piracy.

Back ups in general I think are technically "wrong," or about as wrong as disobeying the FBI warnings in recording an NBA game. No one cares unless it is distributed to other people. USED doesnt factor into this at all, cuz used purchases are legal. Giving away games as gifts or loans is obviously ok too.

I like how people somehow think ROMs are ok, but that shit is piracy too..regardless if its available for purchase or not. It is similar to: Oh this TV show isnt available in this country, so downloading it for free is fine right? Wrong. Companies have the right to not make their product available, and strategically reintroduce products in the future. That doesnt give users the right to be annoyed and then pirate it. But this piracy seems more acceptable to most, since there is no opportunity for money to exchange hands since they are not for sale

 

[water_wendi]

Would you consider experiencing a game without paying an act of piracy?

 

[mrklaw]

Looking at retro stuff for a moment - do you consider buying a game at any point of time, providing you a licence for ever?

So eg you buy Mario world on SNES when it first came out. Since then you lost/threw out the cart. Can you now download the ROM with a clear conscience?

 

[PjotrStroganov]

If you take the latter, then you're not pirating anything...so it's ok! I'm not saying they're necessarily lost sales, I'm saying: if you wish to continue playing the game, another copy of the game must be purchased in order to continue (you may not want to play the game anymore, so then you simply won't purchase another).

So I buy a hard copy. Register it on steam. Original goes kaput. Should I mail valve to remove it from my steam account too?

 

[Mithos]

But oh no no, as we're so frequently told, you are purchasing a license to play the software, not the game itself. Said license can't be lost or broken as long as you have proof of purchase.

Has anyone ever been able to pick up a replacement disc from a publisher this way then when their disc broke/or became unplayable?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Has anyone ever been able to pick up a replacement disc from a publisher this way then when their disc broke/or became unplayable?

Some people have apparently had some luck with it. I had a Square Enix rep literally laugh at me once when I tried it, though.

 

[SiegfriedFM]

When I want to play an old PC game, I buy a new copy. If new copies are no longer sold, I buy a used copy. I have literally never wanted to play a game where I couldn't find a copy (new or used) for sale. If such a case did emerge, I'd evaluate it I guess?

Try wanting to play Moonstone: A Hard Days Knight for Amiga. I've been looking for it on and off for years. It's listed on Wikipedia as "extremely rare".

Fake edit: And of course, now that I do a search I find it on the german Ebay, there's one complete for 195 euros. Let's pretend that some rather insane collector goes and buys it, THEN my point stands .

In most cases though, it's quite possible to get original copies of anything. Just put in an Ebay search and let it notify you. Took me a month or so to get good quality originals of Turrican II and Flashback for a decent price.

 

[boiled goose]

make a copy that someone else uses when u still have the original is piracy.

Downloading a copy from a game is piracy. ( even if you own another copy of the game)
you can make and use your own copies, not download a copy from someone else.

 

[Shotgun Kiss]

I'm curious to know what people think about the following:

Is it piracy if you download a game that isn't going to be released in your region (assuming it isn't region-free, and can't simply be imported)? What about older games that are no longer available to buy in the regions it *was* released in (ie. retro Japanese games)?