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[Michan]

As arcade machines rot in landfills with their boards corroding away, I'm happy knowing that somewhere out there the people that want to play The Simpsons arcade game can.

Such a sad thought...

 

[DaBuddaDa]

So I buy a hard copy. Register it on steam. Original goes kaput. Should I mail valve to remove it from my steam account too?

No because the developers have granted you access to that feature themselves. It's their decision to allow you access to a form of backup as a feature of their service.

 

[ClivePwned]

when you're in international waters and your bail stooge is kidnapped

 

[Photolysis]

Piracy is essentially:

1. Using copyrighted content without a legitimate license to do so

Basically, without obtaining it from someone who has the ability to transfer a legitimate license, such as a retailer, or buying/renting/lending it from someone with a legitimate copy.

This also means that you can legitimately download a copy of a game hold a license for, even if you long ago lost the disc, providing you didn't transfer ownership of the license over to someone else. Though if it ever did go to court, you'd probably want something more than just your word here...


2. Using multiple copies of a license at the same time

For example, if I back up a game and lend the backup to a friend, it would be piracy for me to use my original copy during the time my friend is using the backup, because whilst I own the license I've temporarily transferred the right to use it to him. The actual media used as a means to access the content is irrelevant (in a piracy context).

[1] Purchasing a game NEW, then using a No CD crack because DRM/driver/compatability issues are causing you difficulties running from the disk?
[2] Purchasing a game NEW, then using a NO CD crack because you don't want to keep inserting and removing the disk?
[3] Purchasing a game NEW, then making a backup and playing from this to preserve your original purchase.
[4] Purchasing a game NEW, then letting a friend borrow this original?
[4a] Purchasing a game USED, then letting a friend borrow this original?
[4b] Purchasing a game NEW, making a backup, and letting your friend borrow your backup? (the original is still preserved and never used)
[4c] Purchasing a game USED, making a backup, and letting your friend borrow your backup? (the used original is still preserved and never used)
[5] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident and playing from your backup?
[6] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident and you make a copy of a friend's disk to continue playing?
[7] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident, and you download an ISO from a torrent site to continue playing?
[7a] Purchasing a game USED, your original is destroyed in an accident, and you download an ISO from a torrent site to replace it?
[8] Dumping a ROM from a cartridge you purchased a decade ago, then using various emulators and hardware to play this ROM?
[8a] Downloading a ROM dump from a torrent site of a game cartridge you purchased a decade ago?
[8b] Downloading a ROM dump from a torrent site of a game cartridge you purchased a decade ago, but have since lost?
[9] Downloading multiple ROM hacks of a retro game, when you have purchased the original game itself as part of a recent retro compilation disk.

1. Not piracy
2. Not piracy
3. Not piracy
4. Not piracy
4a. Not piracy
4b. Not piracy, as long as long as the license is only used by one person at any time
4c. Not piracy, as long as long as the license is only used by one person at any time
5. Not piracy, I still own the license. Disc is a means to an end to access it.
6. Not piracy, I still own the license. Disc is a means to an end to use it.
7. Not piracy, I still own the license. Using an ISO is a means to an end to use my license.
7a. Not piracy, I still own the license. Using an ISO is a means to an end to use my license.
8. Not piracy, I still own the license.
8a. Not piracy, I still own the license
8b. Not piracy, I still own the license
9. Revised Piracy because the license applies to use a particular hardware/software combination.

Obviously this only considers piracy/copyright infringement here, as these can still be illegal for other reasons.



Question 10: Purchasing a NEW version of a game for a console and then downloading an ISO of the PC version (or vice versa)

10. Piracy because the license only applies to using the software on a type of hardware. In certain cases additional license fees may also be required (which is why console version of software usually cost more than the PC version).

Or even in certain cases, it might well be that someone else did the porting and would receive some royalties or fees when a certain copy is brought, even if there are no license fees to use the hardware and the actual cost to the end user is the same.


Question 11: Using a copy of a game you own on an emulator when you never had the hardware in question.

11. Piracy (though of the hardware, not the game).

 

[Oxymoron]

I'm curious to know what people think about the following:

Is it piracy if you download a game that isn't going to be released in your region (assuming it isn't region-free, and can't simply be imported)?

Of course it is. Ordering a physical copy from Europe or Japan is dead easy, so there is no case to be made that a Japan-only game is unavailable in North America. The morally correct way to play the Mother 3 fan translation, for example, is by buying a japanese copy of the game.

What about older games that are no longer available to buy in the regions it *was* released in (ie. retro Japanese games)?

That's no different than older games that are no longer available to buy here, like Grim Fandango.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

9. Not piracy, I own the license and can do what I want with my copy.

How does licensing work for compilations? Technically, you don't own the license to, "Sonic the Hedgehog for the Sega Genesis", for example, you own the license to "Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection for the Xbox 360." The content may be the same but the license itself has to be different, right?

 

[Photolysis]

How does licensing work for compilations? Technically, you don't own the license to, "Sonic the Hedgehog for the Sega Genesis", for example, you own the license to "Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection for the Xbox 360." The content may be the same but the license itself has to be different, right?

Ah, I misread the question. Yeah, that's piracy.

 

[DryvBy]

Guybrush Threepwood is not involved, so no piracy.

I personally don't know what we consider piracy these days anymore. It almost seems that all of the examples given are not considered technically "piracy" but are treated in the same manner: original owner is a scum bag because the devs didn't make a million per product.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

I personally don't know what we consider piracy these days anymore.

Read the thread and find out :/

 

[Gaz Pwnage]

none of those are piracy to me

Piracy is downloading something you have not bought

 

[MidnightScott]

I only believe in it for games that do not have a demo. (If they released a demo for every game, I still doubt that people would buy the game anyhow though ) The majority of people however just pirate DS & PSP games. I actually like to own the product physically which is why I don't even like buying digital downloads. (If I get a PSP it'll be a 3000, I don't want digital downloads that Sony can axe at any time they want). Atleast if I own it physically they can't take it away so easily.

It's sad that the industry can't move forward because people believe that games should be free (just like movies & music) which are all billion dollar+ industries. No wonder our economy is bad and so many devs went under.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Try wanting to play Moonstone: A Hard Days Knight for Amiga. I've been looking for it on and off for years. It's listed on Wikipedia as "extremely rare".

Fake edit: And of course, now that I do a search I find it on the german Ebay, there's one complete for 195 euros. Let's pretend that some rather insane collector goes and buys it, THEN my point stands .

Yeah obviously there are a few games that are at the point of absurdity and I should stress that in those cases I think it's fair to say that people can use their own moral compass to determine what they should do.

I was more referring to the fact that most games are $20 or less on eBay and readily available, so pirating Tie Fighter or Theme Hospital or Civilization 2 on the grounds that they "aren't for sale anymore" is pretty shitty ethical cover.

I only believe in it for games that do not have a demo. (If they released a demo for every game, I still doubt that people would buy the game anyhow though ) The majority of people however just pirate DS & PSP games. I actually like to own the product physically which is why I don't even like buying digital downloads. (If I get a PSP it'll be a 3000, I don't want digital downloads that Sony can axe at any time they want). Atleast if I own it physically they can't take it away so easily.

Given your ban history, probably best to not weigh in.

 

[jvm]

Is there a game sold at retail at some point in history that can't be purchased for under, say, $500? Serious question.

Everything I'd like to play I'm fairly sure I can obtain it for $500 or less, including purchasing the platform on which to play it.

 

[Tacitus_]

No because the developers have granted you access to that feature themselves. It's their decision to allow you access to a form of backup as a feature of their service.

What is the cut off point? Are devs allowing access to a backup when they release the game in a backup-able state such as on optical media (this of course hinges on whether you consider breaking cd checks ok or not)?

 

[DaBuddaDa]

What is the cut off point? Are devs allowing access to a backup when they release the game in a backup-able state such as on optical media (this of course hinges on whether you consider breaking cd checks ok or not)?

Games were being released on optical media before cd burners became widespread. Nobody chose to use CDs to put games on for the explicit purpose of them being easily copied. Coming on optical media isn't pitched as a service like Steam. Also almost every piece of optical media is scattered with warnings that specifically state that you may not make or distribute copies of it. If you bought a game and instead of a warning screen, there was a screen that said: "this game comes on DVD! Make copies of it for your friends! Pass them around!" then I guess it would be a-ok.

The media industry is stuck between a rock and a hard place because DVDs and already even blurays are so easily copied. What would people think if there was a supermachine that you could throw a car into and it'd spit out an exact replica of that car. People would go to the dealer, buy a car, and then making five exact copies of the car and give them to their friends. It sounds ridiculous but that's exactly what media copying is, just on a smaller and less expensive scale. Does the smaller scale make it less offensive or any less illegal?

 

[Mael]

Piracy?

[2] Purchasing a game NEW, then using a NO CD crack because you don't want to keep inserting and removing the disk?

[6] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident and you make a copy of a friend's disk to continue playing?


[7] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident, and you download an ISO from a torrent site to continue playing?

[7a] Purchasing a game USED, your original is destroyed in an accident, and you download an ISO from a torrent site to replace it?

[8a] Downloading a ROM dump from a torrent site of a game cartridge you purchased a decade ago?

[8b] Downloading a ROM dump from a torrent site of a game cartridge you purchased a decade ago, but have since lost?


[9] Downloading multiple ROM hacks of a retro game, when you have purchased the original game itself as part of a recent retro compilation disk.

This is quite clearly piracy in my book

[1] Purchasing a game NEW, then using a No CD crack because DRM/driver/compatability issues are causing you difficulties running from the disk?

[3] Purchasing a game NEW, then making a backup and playing from this to preserve your original purchase.

[4] Purchasing a game NEW, then letting a friend borrow this original?

[4a] Purchasing a game USED, then letting a friend borrow this original?

[4b] Purchasing a game NEW, making a backup, and letting your friend borrow your backup? (the original is still preserved and never used)

[4c] Purchasing a game USED, making a backup, and letting your friend borrow your backup? (the used original is still preserved and never used)


[5] Purchasing a game NEW, your original is destroyed in an accident and playing from your backup?


[8] Dumping a ROM from a cartridge you purchased a decade ago, then using various emulators and hardware to play this ROM?

as long as YOU'RE making the backup it's covered by the law, at least where I live, if they don't want people to make backup they better provide games in nintendonium or somethingy simply won't be bought.
And the divide between used and new was unecessary

 

[usea]

Who cares about what is legal? Leave that up to lawyers to argue about. The law doesn't define what's right and wrong. It's often dumb. If you don't think you're being watched by some copyright police, then do what you feel is right.

What do I feel is right?

Acceptable:
Using any means to play a game I've purchased. For example, downloading a rom or circumventing some kind of copy-protection or whatever.

Playing a game I'm borrowing from a friend. This includes using their steam account.

Playing a port of a game I bought on an old system. For example, say Day of the Tentacle comes out on steam. I wouldn't buy it; I already bought that game a long time ago. I would probably just download a copy if I wanted to play it. Probably the steam version if it was more convenient for some reason.

 

[Chauncy Talon]

as it relates to the op:
1) not piracy
2) not piracy
3) not piracy
4) not piracy if you're using it for local lan play regardless of user agreements, piracy if you're both playing on an ongoing bases
4a) same as 4
4b) not piracy
4c) not piracy
5) not piracy
6) not piracy
7) not piracy, but you should turn off uploading, because that's participating in piracy
7a) same as 7
8) not piracy
8a) not piracy, but you should avoid downloading "omg every single game on a console" torrents because you don't own the other games
8b) not piracy
9) not piracy

Seriously, all of these are piracy. Remember, if you alter the game to your liking without written or oral consent you are liable of piracy. It was in the back of manuals and on the NBA on NBC.

 

[Mael]

Seriously, all of these are piracy. Remember, if you alter the game to your liking without written or oral consent you are liable of piracy. It was in the back of manuals and on the NBA on NBC.

and if you opened the back of your Apple II you were liable to get sued or something too?
seriously not every legalese is actually legal

 

[DaBuddaDa]

Who cares about what is legal?

The people who make games and society in general.

The law doesn't define what's right and wrong.

It quite literally does, it is the reason law exists in society.

It's often dumb. If you don't think you're being watched by some copyright police, then do what you feel is right.

Great! I'll go around doing anything I feel is right and I shouldn't fear any repercussions at all.

What do I feel is right?

Acceptable:
Using any means to play a game I've purchased. For example, downloading a rom or circumventing some kind of copy-protection or whatever.

Borderline.

Playing a port of a game I bought on an old system. For example, say Day of the Tentacle comes out on steam. I wouldn't buy it; I already bought that game a long time ago. I would probably just download a copy if I wanted to play it. Probably the steam version if it was more convenient for some reason.

You are unquestionably pirating if you do this. Don't ever do this.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

In some places blowjobs are illegal. If blowjobs are wrong, then I want to be a villain.

 

[Chauncy Talon]

and if you opened the back of your Apple II you were liable to get sued or something too?
seriously not every legalese is actually legal

I know that. That is why I tear the sticker off the mattress.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

So if the law literally defines right and wrong, whose laws are correct? Every country has different laws but clearly morality isn't something that should fluctuate from society to society.

 

[usea]

Great! I'll go around doing anything I feel is right and I shouldn't fear any repercussions at all.

What?

You are unquestionably pirating if you do this. Don't ever do this.

What?

 

[plagiarize]

So if the law literally defines right and wrong, whose laws are correct? Every country has different laws but clearly morality isn't something that should fluctuate from society to society.

Indeed. There is little discussion on what is legal and what isn't. The law is fairly clear on these matters, but that doesn't mean that we can't see the *reason* for that law, and decide for ourselves if it is morally wrong to do some of these things that are defined as illegal under the law.

if i buy a PC game and choose to use a no cd crack and never give the disc to anyone else, there is absolutely no harm done to anyone. no cd cracks are legal in some countries, so it isn't a case where you can say that me wanting to download one helps create the demand for them, and that in turn leads to more illegal copying.

not in a way that's going to convince me anyway.

a lot of the lines drawn in law are arbitrary for the sake of ease of application. here in massachusetts it's illegal to have sex with a girl under 18. that arbitrary line has been chosen because other standards would be incredibly difficult and complex to apply.

if a guy is two months older than his girlfriend, when they are both 17 they can legally have sex. then when the guy turns 18, for the next two months, it becomes illegal. then it becomes legal again once the girl hits 18.

morally i think we can all agree that despite a law very clearly being broken, that there was nothing morally wrong during those two months.

who have i injured by using a crack to prevent me having to take a disc down off of my shelf? no one obviously. given the occasional occurance of software companies using hackers no-cd cracks to make versions of their games that don't have a cd check, i'm amazed that anyone here would argue it as piracy.

illegal as far as the letter of the law? yes. but injurious to anyone? no. i bought my copy. i installed off my disk. i am using my cd key.

 

[plagiarize]

as far as the port question, if anyone has put work into porting that game, then yeah, absolutely you are injuring the team that did the port if you steal the port, justifying it by saying 'i bought it on that other system'.

if sales of the port suffer, then the team that did the port might not get hired to do more, and people that play games on that system may miss out on games as a result.

 

[Yoshi256]

I think the more interesting discussion is, "When is it OK to pirate a game?"

For example, old arcade games that aren't available on digital download services or compilations. If I want to play the arcade version of Sunset Riders (not Genesis or SNES versions) I would have to track down a machine. With arcades becoming harder and harder to find, is it OK to download a rom and run through MAME on a MAME cabinet or PC?

It is not OK to steal games that were released in the last ten years.
But Sunset Riders made its profit, so who cares now about it? Of course it's not legal, but it hurts noone if you download it.

"To see if Garriott's views were shared by other veteran designers, we turned to the wacky Tim Schafer of Double Fine Productions, who is responsible for many beloved adventure games, including Grim Fandango, Day of the Tentacle, and Full Throttle.

Schafer says that gamers seek out these classics for a few reasons but that it's primarily fun to go back and play the old games and see how much they've changed since the whole thing started. "And a lot of those games are just plain fun. I mean, if they weren't [fun], none of us would be here now, right? We'd all have real jobs," kids Schafer. "I think it's important, also, to go back and remember why you started liking games in the first place. There's a lot to learn from the old games because the emphasis was more on gameplay. Am I sounding like an old-timer now or what?"

He adds: "Is it piracy? Yeah, sure. But so what?"

After all, most developers aren't making any royalties...

Surprised to hear this from someone who makes his living by selling games? Schafer clarifies: "Most of the game makers aren't living off the revenue from those old games anymore. Most of the creative teams behind all those games have long since left the companies that published them, so there's no way the people who deserve to are still making royalties off them. So go ahead--steal this game! Spread the love!"

Schafer says he enjoys knowing people are downloading the old games. "They may look rinky-dink by today's standards, but that doesn't mean they didn't take a hell of a lot of work to make, so it's nice to think that somebody may still be enjoying them. [Old games are] like old, beat-up teddy bears with one eye missing and the stuffing coming out. I can't speak for the rest of the industry, but personally, I'd rather my old games were stolen and played for free than forgotten about."

http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/abandonware/p2_04.html

 

[usea]

as far as the port question, if anyone has put work into porting that game, then yeah, absolutely you are injuring the team that did the port if you steal the port, justifying it by saying 'i bought it on that other system'.

if sales of the port suffer, then the team that did the port might not get hired to do more, and people that play games on that system may miss out on games as a result.

I don't really feel that it's my duty to keep others employed or to keep products being made. Every game I choose not to buy "hurts" the industry. Every time a couple uses a contraceptive, a potential child is denied life. Oh well. Not a reasonable concern.

When I decide to play a game I own, and I see that it has been re-released since I last played it, I don't feel compelled to buy the game a second time. It's the same game, regardless of whatever happened behind the scenes for the company to try and profit from their property. I own it already. Nobody is gaining or losing anything based on what hardware I choose to play it on.

 

[Palette Swap]

mario allstars isn't the same game as mario 1

What about nes classics mario 1 vs nes mario 1?

I'd say they aren't the same if only because the gba version has a built in NES emulator? Then again, the clean solution for someone in that case would be to use a free emulator and dump his nes mario 1.

Is downloading a game you own the license to (without uploading a single byte of the game) a clean alternative to dumping it yourself?

 

[DaBuddaDa]

When I decide to play a game I own, and I see that it has been re-released since I last played it, I don't feel compelled to buy the game a second time. It's the same game, regardless of whatever happened behind the scenes for the company to try and profit from their property. I own it already. Nobody is gaining or losing anything based on what hardware I choose to play it on.

When it comes to legality, that isn't a decision you're free to make. Even if you already own the game on another platform, if you download the same game for a different platform you don't own that license and you are pirating. You might think it's morally OK to pirate the game but legally you're wrong. In the almost impossible chance that you were busted doing this and went to court, do you really think the judge would agree with your argument?

 

[PjotrStroganov]

Games were being released on optical media before cd burners became widespread. Nobody chose to use CDs to put games on for the explicit purpose of them being easily copied. Coming on optical media isn't pitched as a service like Steam. Also almost every piece of optical media is scattered with warnings that specifically state that you may not make or distribute copies of it. If you bought a game and instead of a warning screen, there was a screen that said: "this game comes on DVD! Make copies of it for your friends! Pass them around!" then I guess it would be a-ok.

The media industry is stuck between a rock and a hard place because DVDs and already even blurays are so easily copied. What would people think if there was a supermachine that you could throw a car into and it'd spit out an exact replica of that car. People would go to the dealer, buy a car, and then making five exact copies of the car and give them to their friends. It sounds ridiculous but that's exactly what media copying is, just on a smaller and less expensive scale. Does the smaller scale make it less offensive or any less illegal?

Making a backup of a game isn't illegal here.


Downloading a copy is illegal, but I personally don't see any difference in it. Both result in the same for me: being able to have a backup with the added bonus of no drm troubles.

And whether I copy the original, or just simply download it (without sharing), nothing will change for the publisher/developer.




I agree though that downloading ports is morally wrong. Often a different developer is responsible for making a port and therefore it is a different game.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

When I decide to play a game I own, and I see that it has been re-released since I last played it, I don't feel compelled to buy the game a second time. It's the same game, regardless of whatever happened behind the scenes for the company to try and profit from their property. I own it already. Nobody is gaining or losing anything based on what hardware I choose to play it on.

Part of your argument I can agree with. Just because something has been rereleased in a new format doesn't compel you to purchase it if you already own a copy of the original game. For instance, you don't have to download GOG's version of Myst if you want to play your old CD version.

But that doesn't make it OK to pirate ports or remakes. In the above situation, it's not acceptable to pirate the App Store version of Myst just because you feel like playing it on your iPhone. Similarly, owning the original Monkey Island doesn't mean you can download the Special Edition for free because you want the updated graphics and voice acting. Nothing is stopping you from playing your original copy of the game; don't leech off people who put in hard work on ports and remakes just because you have a misguided sense of entitlement.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

Downloading a copy is illegal, but I personally don't see any difference in it. Both result in the same for me: being able to have a backup with the added bonus of no drm troubles.

And whether I copy the original, or just simply download it (without sharing), nothing will change for the publisher/developer.

I agree, but with the caveats that the copy you make cannot ever be given out to someone else or sold and the backup should only be used if the original copy is broken. Legally you'd find a mess though, at least in the US.

 

[Freyjadour]

There are plenty of thing that are technically "illegal", but that I don't really consider "piracy" on the level others do.

And I'm of the dispostion that if there's no feasible way to support the developer, I wouldn't care what people did to play it. Some of these older games are stupid expensive and just funding some asshole power seller on eBay (hey, they bid war the shit out my old wanted games!) Digital options like Steam are a good step forward, but there are still tons of classic pc games that would be difficult to buy.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

When I decide to play a game I own, and I see that it has been re-released since I last played it, I don't feel compelled to buy the game a second time. It's the same game, regardless of whatever happened behind the scenes for the company to try and profit from their property. I own it already. Nobody is gaining or losing anything based on what hardware I choose to play it on.

You don't own any version of the game except the version you originally bought. The fact that I own a VHS copy of a movie somewhere but no longer feel like hooking up a VCR to watch it doesn't mean I'm in the clear to download a digital version and burn it to a DVD since "I already own the movie."

 

[brain_stew]

The game is no doubt trapped in licensing hell, and will probably never be made available for purchase ever. For the sake of preservation, I'm glad games in those situations will never disappear off the face of the Earth.

The work of projects like MAME has been proven in the past to have been taken advantage of for commercial releases and has saved/will save countless games from being lost forever. Without it many potential revenue streams for these license holders could very well have been lost. I buy stacks of arcade compilations but they're always inferior to MAME so why not just let me buy ROMs that I can plug into MAME directly?

 

[brain_stew]

How does licensing work for compilations? Technically, you don't own the license to, "Sonic the Hedgehog for the Sega Genesis", for example, you own the license to "Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection for the Xbox 360." The content may be the same but the license itself has to be different, right?

Those compilations all contain the original game ROMs in unaltered form. The problem is the emulator they force you to use is almost without exception inferiro to what the community can offer. I own the ROM for Sonic the Hedgehog around a dozen times or more in various forms. After paying SEGA for the exact same digital code that many times I'm not going to feel any remorse if I want to boot the game up on an emulator that delivers a better experience with modern A/V equipment than any of their releases or even the original hardware does.

If I could buy "bare" ROM dumps directly from SEGA/Nintendo/Capcom/etc. that I could plug into the emulator of my choice then I'd be one of the first to take advantage of such a service. Why should I feel any guilt for wanting to experience a game ROM the way I want to when I've already bought that code a dozen times in the past?

You don't own any version of the game except the version you originally bought. The fact that I own a VHS copy of a movie somewhere but no longer feel like hooking up a VCR to watch it doesn't mean I'm in the clear to download a digital version and burn it to a DVD since "I already own the movie."

Completely different scenario. The DVD is a new and superior product with work put into digitally remastering it and providing extras. The digital data is not in anyway byte for byte identical to what was contained on the VHS tape. Game compilations (more than 9 times out of 10) are just the exact same unaltered code with a closed emulator bundled that I have no use for (since its inferior to free alternatives). I don't want to pay for a proprietary sub-par emualtor (which in essence is what I'd be paying for since I already own the rest of the code on the disc) though usually I still do anyway, more fool to me then I guess.

Now, when we're talking about what are effectively remakes like Super Mario All Stars, well that's a completely different scenario.

 

[Speevy]

It is not OK to steal games that were released in the last ten years.

Seriously?

 

[a Master Ninja]

If I could buy "bare" ROM dumps directly from SEGA/Nintendo/Capcom/etc. that I could plug into the emulator of my choice then I'd be one of the first to take advantage of such a service.

That would be great, actually.

 

[brain_stew]

That would be great, actually.

People in the MAME community have been calling for it for years but there's still no progress. IIRC someone may have trialled it previously (Atari?) but I don't know of anyone that offers that sort of service these days. Such a shame really, its by far and away the form I'd prefer to buy these games in and it would require less effort and investment than any other form of release.

In the mean time I'll just continue to buy up all the console arcade ROM collections I can but ridiculously this often means that none of my cash goes to the license holders as getting hold of new copies of these sort of releases can often be difficult. They'd get more money from me if they offered me less, go figure.....

 

[Palmer_v1]

playing a game you didn't buy is piracy

So when I borrowed FFXIII from a friend, it was piracy?

 

[Speevy]

So when I borrowed FFXIII from a friend, it was piracy?

Have you ever loaned money to your friend?

 

[jvm]

The work of projects like MAME has been proven in the past to have been taken advantage of for commercial releases and has saved/will save countless games from being lost forever. Without it many potential revenue streams for these license holders could very well have been lost. I buy stacks of arcade compilations but they're always inferior to MAME so why not just let me buy ROMs that I can plug into MAME directly?

It's an amusing footnote in history, but there was once a company called StarROMs that did precisely this. I recently ran across my collection of ROMs that I purchased through their service while perusing some old hard drive backups.

They had licensed a bunch of Atari ROMs and were offering them up for sales for a dollar or two each. It was very reasonable. Unfortunately, they never got critical mass and weren't able to expand their set of ROMs.

In fact, due to some icky licensing issues, it appears that they might have bought rights from a company that didn't have the rights to sell. Therefore, a handful of the ROMs originally available for the service disappeared a few weeks after their online storefront went live. I actually purchased a few of those before they disappeared.

Anyway, my theory is that they had a good start but were basically shut out by exclusive licensing agreements struck with GameTap and other online services. I have no proof that that's what happened (in fact, I'm dabbling in a tiny bit of post hoc ergo propter hoc), but having spoken with an attorney involved in the process, that theory seems the most likely one to me.

Anyway ... it was done at one time, but re-selling/renting games out through GameTap, PSN, XBLA, etc. etc. has proven (I suspect) to be much more lucrative for the rights holders.

Ah well...

 

[luka]

Question 11: Using a copy of a game you own on an emulator when you never had the hardware in question.

11. Piracy (though of the hardware, not the game).

Wrong.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Completely different scenario. The DVD is a new and superior product with work put into digitally remastering it and providing extras. The digital data is not in anyway byte for byte identical to what was contained on the VHS tape. Game compilations (more than 9 times out of 10) are just the exact same unaltered code with a closed emulator bundled that I have no use for (since its inferior to free alternatives). I don't want to pay for a proprietary sub-par emualtor (which in essence is what I'd be paying for since I already own the rest of the code on the disc) though usually I still do anyway, more fool to me then I guess.

Now, when we're talking about what are effectively remakes like Super Mario All Stars, well that's a completely different scenario.

There's a lot of ambiguity here. What I'm suggesting is this: the fact that I have, say, my Chrono Trigger SNES cartridge sitting somewhere in my house does not give me a free pass to download the DS rom and stick it on my flash card so that I can play it on my next trip and not have to "buy it again since I already own Chrono Trigger."

Now, if you're talking about throwing the old SNES rom (which we are again assuming you own the cartridge for) on a flash card along with an SNES emulator onto your DS (I don't follow the homebrew scene enough to even really know if this is feasible), then while probably not entirely legal I will nevertheless argue that there is far less to be morally outraged about in this scenario.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

So when I borrowed FFXIII from a friend, it was piracy?

As long as it wasn't a copy of the game, then it wasn't piracy.

 

[Stumpokapow]

So when I borrowed FFXIII from a friend, it was piracy?

no, but your overly literal interpretation of my post is painful nonetheless.

What about nes classics mario 1 vs nes mario 1?

I'd say they aren't the same if only because the gba version has a built in NES emulator? Then again, the clean solution for someone in that case would be to use a free emulator and dump his nes mario 1.

I'd argue that it's difference because even though they're functionally identical, the NES Classics version was repackaged for sale in a different wrapper. By the same token, I feel that using your own SMB1 ROM with Virtual Console ROM injection is okay, while downloading the SMB1 VC WAD is not really okay.

Is downloading a game you own the license to (without uploading a single byte of the game) a clean alternative to dumping it yourself?

Personally I don't see why indirectly making a byte for byte backup through downloading is any different than making a byte through byte backup by using a backup device. As an experiment, pretend that I have a NES cart, a backup device, and an internet connected PC in a room with no windows and one door. I ask you to make me a backup of the game and leave you in the room for an hour. When I come back, SMB1.nes is sitting on my desktop. Given that both a downloaded ROM and a backed up ROM are bytewise identical, how could I even determine which you did? Why would I care?

 

[FLEABttn]

8b. Not piracy, I still own the license

Oh. Please present your license then.

It's hard to say you have the license to something you don't have. You can see how that might be a problem.

 

[brain_stew]

It's an amusing footnote in history, but there was once a company called StarROMs that did precisely this. I recently ran across my collection of ROMs that I purchased through their service while perusing some old hard drive backups.

They had licensed a bunch of Atari ROMs and were offering them up for sales for a dollar or two each. It was very reasonable. Unfortunately, they never got critical mass and weren't able to expand their set of ROMs.

In fact, due to some icky licensing issues, it appears that they might have bought rights from a company that didn't have the rights to sell. Therefore, a handful of the ROMs originally available for the service disappeared a few weeks after their online storefront went live. I actually purchased a few of those before they disappeared.

Anyway, my theory is that they had a good start but were basically shut out by exclusive licensing agreements struck with GameTap and other online services. I have no proof that that's what happened (in fact, I'm dabbling in a tiny bit of post hoc ergo propter hoc), but having spoken with an attorney involved in the process, that theory seems the most likely one to me.

Anyway ... it was done at one time, but re-selling/renting games out through GameTap, PSN, XBLA, etc. etc. has proven (I suspect) to be much more lucrative for the rights holders.

Ah well...

That's the one, I knew it was attempted once and that Atari roms were involved. Real shame it never worked out.

Even if other forms of distribution are more lucrative I don't see why something like this can't be offered in addition. The VC didn't stop numerous ROM+Emulator collections to be released this generation and nor has Gametap stopped SEGA from offering proprietary Mega Drive ROM+Emulator packages on Steam.

As it stands, if someone wants to get ROMs for a piece of legal emulator software they have downloaded, they have countless incredibly convenient, yet illegal, options just a Google search away. What if the first result for all those Google searches was a legal service instead (just like gog.com is on the first page of results for "old pc games")? These people are going to download these ROMs one way or another, at least give them the opportunity to do it legally if they want to.

The only thing such a service would really be competing with directly would be the illegal ROM sites, and gog.com has proven that if you offer people a legal alternative to piracy and provide a quality service to go with it then a surprising number of people will be quite happy to go the legal route. Heck, maybe this could be a future avenue for gog.com to go down? At the very least, the success of a service like gog.com at least shows that something like this for console games could indeed be viable now that DD has hit critical mass on the PC.

There's a lot of ambiguity here. What I'm suggesting is this: the fact that I have, say, my Chrono Trigger SNES cartridge sitting somewhere in my house does not give me a free pass to download the DS rom and stick it on my flash card so that I can play it on my next trip and not have to "buy it again since I already own Chrono Trigger."

Yes, and I fully agree with that, as will most here, they're different games. The code is absolutely not replicated identically byte for byte.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Oh. Please present your license then.

It's hard to say you have the license to something you don't have. You can see how that might be a problem.

If he had a receipt or a photo of him holding the cartridge from when he was 10, would that change the morality of it? If so, why? We're not talking about the legality (or at least most of us aren't), we're talking about the morality--and given that no one is standing in our houses over our shoulders casting judgment, really we're talking about how we morally view our own actions. Does he have to look at his own receipt to remind himself that he bought something that he clearly knows he bought?