Support NeoGAF

[Costia]

I know it's not really controversial but I believe copyright laws have gone far too far. Things get copyrighted for too long and certain ideas that should never have been able to be copyrighted are being copyrighted.

How the hell can you copyright the use of turning a card 90 degrees in a card game? It's an incredibly anti-consumer/anti-player situation, because some games for example may have a mechanic that's amazing, but is locked to a terrible game or something similar where the company who came up with it charges far too much for the ability to use it. Copyright laws don't aid innovation, they quell it.

You can't copyright ideas or turning a card 90 degrees.
You should read about copyrights, trademarks and patents. those are totally different things.
Also AFAIK the patent isn't for turning a card 90 degrees, but is a lot more specific - i.e. what the turning the card means in the game.

Patents can aid innovation. For example having a minigame on the loading screen is patented. This forced companies to find ways around it. So now you have games with seamless levels and almost no loading screens instead of lots of minigames thrown in.
Basically it can force companies to find their own unique and creative solution to a problem instead of copying somebody else's work.
But it can also be abused to stop competitors, which happens quite often.

 

[Spiritreaver]

Wait.... that's why games don't have mini games on loading screens these days? That's horrible.

 

[Costia]

Wait.... that's why games don't have mini games on loading screens these days? That's horrible.

It should expire next year.
http://www.google.com/patents/US5718632

 

[ZackieChan]

You can't copyright ideas or turning a card 90 degrees.
You should read about copyrights, trademarks and patents. those are totally different things.
Also AFAIK the patent isn't for turning a card 90 degrees, but is a lot more specific - i.e. what the turning the card means in the game.

Patents can aid innovation. For example having a minigame on the loading screen is patented. This forced companies to find ways around it. So now you have games with seamless levels and almost no loading screens instead of lots of minigames thrown in.
Basically it can force companies to find their own unique and creative solution to a problem instead of copying somebody else's work.
But it can also be abused to stop competitors, which happens quite often.

Great post!

The patent on "tapping" a card is actually a patent for the entire game flow of MtG, of which tapping is one part. It's really not all that difficult to design around it, and having something fresh and different is real innovation. I don't want to play a bunch of reskinned versions of other games. I want to see new and interesting game mechanics and art. I think it's great that these things are protected (though the length of copyright is so long as to be effectively infinite, which is outside of the spirit of the law).

 

[piratepwnsninja]

Definitely don't agree. There's so much variety in the TCG and it's not like WotC has stopped any of that from happening.

While I did support the Hex kickstarter with my own money, I don't mind Cryptozoic losing this one because it'll discourage people from creating more blatant copies of TCG mechanics considering TCGs are probably one of the easiest genre to innovate in. If Cryptozoic wins this one and more developers create even more blatant copies of MtG, then it'll be unbelievably bad for consumers.

The issue, I feel, is going to be with how the verdict is worded if it goes against Cryptozoic. It's something that, if not carefully worded, will leave the door open for patenting mechanics, so you do end up with "Patent for a view in a game in which you look through the characters eyes." It was mentioned that there are too many FPS games in existence for that to happen, but while it may not be retroactive, it could apply to future titles. I mean, hell, Amazon was able to patent taking a picture against a white backdrop.

 

[Spiritreaver]

Innovation is great, but some card games go off the deep end on this "innovative" stuff. To the point where I don't even find a majority of them all that entertaining. Secondly it's been brought up that so few games are copying MTG. Having one game borrow heavily from it isn't going to magically kill innovation, you already have so many other options to choose from. As it's been said, so few have been copying the game already, I doubt they would copy Hex.

Or perhaps I am wrong. If CZE were to succeed here, more companies would shamelessly copy MTG.

Not really defending CZE here, but rather I think the innovation argument is silly. Also I really dislike that loading screen example. I really don't think that patent spurred innovation. It probably had more to do with the general distaste for load screens and jumps in technology allowing for streaming of data. I mean hell, plenty of games still have load screens anyway,

If anything, that particular example shows to me just how silly patents can be.

 

[TheYanger]

I like Cryptozoic, but I think this is a pretty blatant clone. What I'd REALLY like is to start seeing all the shitty ios and android clone games getting shut down, but that's probably tangentally related at best.

 

[ZackieChan]

The issue, I feel, is going to be with how the verdict is worded if it goes against Cryptozoic. It's something that, if not carefully worded, will leave the door open for patenting mechanics, so you do end up with "Patent for a view in a game in which you look through the characters eyes." It was mentioned that there are too many FPS games in existence for that to happen, but while it may not be retroactive, it could apply to future titles. I mean, hell, Amazon was able to patent taking a picture against a white backdrop.

This post is full of wrong. First, you CAN patent mechanics. The mechanics of MtG are patented, as evidenced by 1/3 of the lawsuit. Second, you couldn't patent FPS games, since there is tons of prior art and they have been in existence and in the public for over a year. It couldn't apply to future titles.

I'm not familiar with the Amazon patent. Saw the headline but didn't read it. Yes, there are some nutty patents, but there are some things that can't be patented at this point, namely games from a first-person perspective.

Edit: That is an odd patent. We'll see if that stands up to scrutiny.

 

[wanders]

I like Cryptozoic, but I think this is a pretty blatant clone. What I'd REALLY like is to start seeing all the shitty ios and android clone games getting shut down, but that's probably tangentally related at best.

The only MTG rip off I can think of is Shadow Era but that's more WoW TCG

 

[mclem]

It would indeed be a bad precedent, but not for that reason. It would be bad for the TCG market, but FPS games will be safe (it's way, way too late to start with that nonsense now).

Who owns the rights to Midi Maze, anyway? Interestingly, I think there's a vague possibility that it's Nintendo (due to their ties with Bullet Proof Software, who made the Faceball rebrandings)

 

[Aureon]

The only MTG rip off I can think of is Shadow Era but that's more WoW TCG

Shadow Era wasn't nearly as much as a clone as Hex is.
Mana system was the Zero-Variance one, at least.

 

[Brakara]

Who owns the rights to Midi Maze, anyway? Interestingly, I think there's a vague possibility that it's Nintendo (due to their ties with Bullet Proof Software, who made the Faceball rebrandings)

If they tried to patent it now, it would be almost 30 years late though. Basically, FPS games are safe because you can just point to prior art, and anyone who says otherwise are just trolling or doing some good old fashioned FUD.

 

[mclem]

Basically, FPS games are safe because you can just point to prior art,

...but you can also do that with minigames on loading screens.

 

[genbatzu]

Reading material for the op

nice read. with the evidence provided I hope Cryptozoic will loose this lawsuit

 

[Brakara]

...but you can also do that with minigames on loading screens.

That was granted a patent in 1995 and expires next year.

Edit: Also, I don't think that patent was ever enforced, was it? It would be extremely weak since minigames on loading screens existed in the 80s.

 

[dmcAxle]

nice read. with the evidence provided I hope Cryptozoic will loose this lawsuit

That's a pretty unfair assessment considering only one side has actually been given a chance to speak at the moment and sway your opinion. HEX is an evolution of the genre. If HEX wanted to just be a "blatant clone" then they wouldn't have made so many mechanical changes to the game on the digital front. They would have just kept the simplistic nature of MTG instead of moving to digital effects which has been a coding nightmare compared to the simpler abilities in the paper game. "Well Wizards would have done the same thing if they did go digital". Well they didn't go digital which is why the market for HEX exists. People spoke with 2.5 million dollars. They instead made excuses to keep the high prices in MTGO with "we want to keep the integrity of the paper game". In my opinion, HEX losing this would be the injustice of a misinformed jury/judge.

Here's a post that outlines the situation pretty well and why CZE is actually fairly favored to win right now.

Source that backs this post: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/493249/mythbusting-game-design-and-copyright-trademarks-a

-All creative expressions in Hex whether it be story, art, music, or code are all entirely original.

-Copyright does not protect the idea, rules, or methods of playing a game (there are dozens of backgammon/match-3 type of games on the market which exist with the EXACT same rules, steps, methods, win conditions etc).

-The trade dress issue, which seems to exist to prevent consumers from being tricked into buying the wrong product, is not an issue for a digital offering that requires very specific set of steps to purchase the product (go to Hex website, download Hex client, register for a Hex account, then go to the Hex store section, click on a pack clearly labeled Hex, and finally checkout using Hex's own system.)

-The cards and UI in its current state have enough differences that lets people distinguish the two and furthermore any similarities can be argued to be functional in purpose

-Magics patent applies to any game that lets you collect cards and build decks (so pretty much the whole genre) - and thus seems too broad to take seriously.

-The patent in question expires June 22nd 2014

-The patent could even be rendered invalid just based on the fact that many of the cards and ideas were floated around before the patent was applied for (and it was beyond the scope of R&D testing purposes)

-US law doesn't seem to consider Kickstarter backers as consumers (which is why you're not entitled to any refund if anything comes of the game). This is important because Wizards wants to claim the 2.5 million backed to HEX.

-The game being born out of a massively successful Kickstarter campaign suggests that this is a game the market/consumers explicitly want and is not a cheap copy clone that attempts to make a quick buck off someone else's name. In fact no where in the KS campaign is the word Magic the Gathering mentioned.

-The actual direct PVP battle part of the game which seems to be the entire focus of the suit is actually only a small portion of the TCGMMO that is Hex. The other elements in the game (some of which are already in the game, with many others in the works) are very much part of the overall game that is Hex (for example the combat mechanics of WoW are not even close to being the entirety of what the game is about). So you can't simply focus on 5% of a game and say 100% of the game is a copy (even when as previously discussed a large part of that 5% is not even close to being 100% the same as MTG). Sockets and champions by themselves are an incredible new innovation that Hex has come up with that adds much depth to the game.

-Hasbro's confidence seems to be coming from that Triple Town vs Yeti Town case (they use same tactics like citing bloggers and even ask for same amount in damages) but that case is entirely different and involves code sharing between the two parties before the game was even released.

-Card names being the same or similar when common verbs/nouns/expressions are concerned is not an issue. If it were then Magic could release a special set and have millions of permutations of every common phrase and bar anyone from making cards with names that resemble anything.

-A TCG having 5 colors, the amount of money MTG spent on R&D, special abilities of a card - none of this really matters and can't be used to prevent others from making similar versions.

- Hasbro realizes that they lose out on every single point mentioned here analyzed individually so as the lawyer in quietspeculation argues, they've tried to jumble the points together to try to make a case that might fool some judge somewhere.

So since Hex is not in violation of any specific rule, the case boils down to a subjective questions of whether a game like this has merit to exist. The fact that it is birthed by a smashing success of a Kickstarter (aka real world consumers), seems to be a pretty strong argument in favor of the idea that this game brings enough to the table to exist.

The only possible stumbling block should be that ridiculous patent, if which it somehow stands, could have destroyed just about every TCG on the market today.

PS: IANAL

 

[Bizazedo]

Here's a post that outlines the situation pretty well and why CZE is actually fairly favored to win right now.

Source that backs this post: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/493249/mythbusting-game-design-and-copyright-trademarks-a

Doesn't that source then says "IANAL (I am not a Lawyer)" and thus invalidate everything he / she said? Or at least reduces it back to the realm of an opinion?

 

[dmcAxle]

The boardgamegeek comes from the rulings of many actual lawyers but just jumped into one post. It's a very old post. If it wasn't accurate then someone would have corrected it by then.

The summary post is just an assessment of the situation that is slightly biased.

 

[Minsc]

Well, they've officially posted on their forums they're making a statement "HEX Entertainment will be releasing an official statement early next week. We thank you all for your patience."

So we'll see what they say soon (next week is now this current week, so sometime today-wednesday I guess). Probably not much, I'd expect, other than "we're completely fine" or something along those lines.

Doesn't that source then says "IANAL (I am not a Lawyer)" and thus invalidate everything he / she said? Or at least reduces it back to the realm of an opinion?

Well, the suit itself is also an opinion, technically, until it is judged upon. Everything in the lawsuit is mere opinion, Hasbro's stance on the matters as it best suits them. Whether what they say is correct is to be determined later, if it actually makes it all the way to a judge/jury.

 

[Fularu]

That's a pretty unfair assessment considering only one side has actually been given a chance to speak at the moment and sway your opinion. HEX is an evolution of the genre. If HEX wanted to just be a "blatant clone" then they wouldn't have made so many mechanical changes to the game on the digital front. They would have just kept the simplistic nature of MTG instead of moving to digital effects which has been a coding nightmare compared to the simpler abilities in the paper game. "Well Wizards would have done the same thing if they did go digital". Well they didn't go digital which is why the market for HEX exists. People spoke with 2.5 million dollars. They instead made excuses to keep the high prices in MTGO with "we want to keep the integrity of the paper game". In my opinion, HEX losing this would be the injustice of a misinformed jury/judge.

Here's a post that outlines the situation pretty well and why CZE is actually fairly favored to win right now.

Source that backs this post: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/493249/mythbusting-game-design-and-copyright-trademarks-a

So this defends Hex beeing a clone because, well, other clones exist and the patent WOTC holds is "so broad" that it would prevent every other card game on the market? (Despite WOTC never going after any other game, similar or not, before this one?).

Sounds like a prety weak argument.

 

[dmcAxle]

The double standards on what people do in the video game industry and here is disgusting. Like someone said, should we be filing lawsuits and throwing hate mail against Mighty no 9 too? Yes it was created from MTG ideas. However it's genre evolution in a game that refused to evolve. No blatant laws are being broken. Card games don't get to be enforced to be entirely different when MMOs and FPS games get away with it. No one even cared until Wizards cried about someone making a better game than theirs. Should LoL sue these guys too or is it okay? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawngate

Yeah I agree my argument is "other clone-like games exist so we should be fine". It's because I'm pissed that a game that is doing the greater good for the genre is being damaged by a jealous company that is too lazy to do anything with their IP. Sorry for my extreme bias because of that. What I'm saying shouldn't be misjudged as HEX's argument btw. Their argument will be in whatever their statement is.

In regards to the patent, whether or not it was enforced or not before does not change anything. They have a patent on targeting cards of all the ridiculous things. If your card game uses one card to target another, you are infringing on their patent. The fact that it isn't being used on every card game they can actually speaks volumes to how broad it could be. They could be afraid of it being invalidated and now that it expires in a month they might as well try and use it. I doubt it's good morals that prevents them for getting as much money as they can from every company. This is Hasbro we're talking about.

 

[ultron87]

From that link posted:

The fact that it is birthed by a smashing success of a Kickstarter (aka real world consumers), seems to be a pretty strong argument in favor of the idea that this game brings enough to the table to exist.

It could be argued that the Kickstarter was so successful precisely because it is capitalizing on the popularity of Magic by making a game that plays exactly like it. I wonder if it would be damaging to them if someone digs through the Kickstarter comments or other online discussions about the Kickstarter (like our own GAF thread) and see tons of mentions of "Oh, so it's Magic".

 

[Phades]

There's plenty of card games that have tapping-like mechanics. If Hex only copied tapping, no one would care.

http://www.google.com/patents/US5662332

"(b) entering one or more trading cards into play by placing the one or more trading cards face up in a first orientation on a playing surface, and at the player's option, using one or more trading cards that have been entered into play in accordance with the rules and tapping each trading card used in play so all players are aware the trading card is in use by turning the trading cards from the first orientation to a second orientation on the playing surface;"

You sure about that? Someone cared enough to patent the mechanic. Patent also covers "concepts" like deck construction, drawing, and discarding cards. Either its all good and someone can make similar games, or its not. These sorts of things remind me more of filing cases including aspects like the shape of a phone than actual infringement leading to substantial "injury" of a company causing a loss in profit.

 

[Shinjica]

http://www.google.com/patents/US5662332

"(b) entering one or more trading cards into play by placing the one or more trading cards face up in a first orientation on a playing surface, and at the player's option, using one or more trading cards that have been entered into play in accordance with the rules and tapping each trading card used in play so all players are aware the trading card is in use by turning the trading cards from the first orientation to a second orientation on the playing surface;"

You sure about that? Someone cared enough to patent the mechanic. Patent also covers "concepts" like deck construction, drawing, and discarding cards. Either its all good and someone can make similar games, or its not. These sorts of things remind me more of filing cases including aspects like the shape of a phone than actual infringement leading to substantial "injury" of a company causing a loss in profit.

Well, if you say is right, no other TCG would exist because deck costruction, drawing and discarding are basic thing in TCG

 

[TheYanger]

http://www.google.com/patents/US5662332

"(b) entering one or more trading cards into play by placing the one or more trading cards face up in a first orientation on a playing surface, and at the player's option, using one or more trading cards that have been entered into play in accordance with the rules and tapping each trading card used in play so all players are aware the trading card is in use by turning the trading cards from the first orientation to a second orientation on the playing surface;"

You sure about that? Someone cared enough to patent the mechanic. Patent also covers "concepts" like deck construction, drawing, and discarding cards. Either its all good and someone can make similar games, or its not. These sorts of things remind me more of filing cases including aspects like the shape of a phone than actual infringement leading to substantial "injury" of a company causing a loss in profit.

Yes, we're pretty sure about that - there's a difference between every other game using only the most basic aspects that a card game could reasonably use (and when WotC first got that patent you saw other companies license it from them, as well as use all sorts of methods to get around it), and Hex which is like 99% the same game.

 

[Phades]

Well, if you say is right, no other TCG would exist because deck costruction, drawing and discarding are basic thing in TCG

That's kind of the point when folks are saying you can't enforce a patent on a mechanic.

Yes, we're pretty sure about that - there's a difference between every other game using only the most basic aspects that a card game could reasonably use (and when WotC first got that patent you saw other companies license it from them, as well as use all sorts of methods to get around it), and Hex which is like 99% the same game.

Right. 99% of the game, which includes all card effects and how they operate on even a vague meta corrolating to some "simpsons did it first" nonsense (which isn't even accurate in the first place). You have to see this as patent trolling on broad and vauge terms using a big established company flexing its legal arm and little else. I could draw parrallels between important mechanics and similar cards between almost any game and make the argument you are trying to put forward on very basic levels that folks who played the games could take apart based on more specific nuances within the games themselves. It is no different here.

 

[FieryBalrog]

I could draw parrallels between important mechanics and similar cards between almost any game

OK. So let's take Pokemon TCG... what game is to Pokemon what Hex is to MTG?

A lizard, a chimpanzee and a human are all land-dwelling vertebrates with certain basic similarities. That doesn't mean lizard:chimpanzee :: chimpanzee : human. Conflating degrees of similarity is sloppy thinking.

 

[Phades]

OK. So let's take Pokemon TCG... what game is to Pokemon what Hex is to MTG?

A lizard, a chimpanzee and a human are all land-dwelling vertebrates with certain basic similarities. That doesn't mean lizard:chimpanzee :: chimpanzee : human. Conflating degrees of similarity is sloppy thinking.

You clearly don't understand the caveat I had that you chopped off the end of the sentance.

 

[dmcAxle]

https://hextcg.com/hex-update-from-cory/

May 19, 2014

To our family of HEX supporters…
I have been chasing a dream for the last three years, a dream to produce an innovative trading card game: a game that combines the strategy of a TCG with the community and progression of an MMO. Something amazing and new, something you would love. We presented that dream to you, our community, and you responded with such mind-blowing support to help us launch HEX.

Sadly, the potential of that innovation has driven WOTC to file a meritless lawsuit in an attempt to kill a competitor before it delivers on that promise. HEX has a chance to give gamers a better and completely different experience from a digital-only TCG than a paper TCG can. Sometimes being small and independent makes you seem like an easy target to the bullies, and that’s not an easy place to be, but rest assured we are ready to defend the dream.

Yes, WOTC, and its even larger parent, Hasbro, are much bigger than Hex Entertainment. But the size of their bank accounts doesn't make them right, and we will fight to deliver the game that you supported throughout this journey. We will not allow this frivolous legal action to damage our ability to deliver a quality game experience to you.

I appreciate the outpouring of support on our forums and I can understand the need to speculate on the specifics of the case. Clearly, I cannot address these posts in detail, but rest assured we have retained legal counsel that is very experienced in these types of matters and I feel 100% confident in a positive outcome for HEX. I will say that it’s important for the HEX community to remember we are all part of the same tribe. We are all gamers, so even if someone isn’t into HEX, please treat them with kindness and respect. We must all stick together as a tribe; gamers have it hard enough as it is without tearing each other down.

I will not allow the dream we shared as a community to be crushed. You believed in me, made the Kickstarter an amazing success, and stuck by us as we slogged through the alpha client. It is unfortunate that this hurdle has been thrust upon us. But, we will prevail; we have come too far to let the dream die now.

Lastly, I must ask that you respect the obligations of the HEX team members during this time and direct all questions or comments to myself and legal at legal@hextcg.com. We will read all inquires but remember that because of the nature of this situation we may not be able to respond at this time. But, we will continue to keep all of you, our fans and support, apprised of the developments as we have strived to do so from the very beginning.

Thank you,
Cory Jones and HEX team

Pretty general statement saying we're going all in on this claim and not backing down.

 

[Card Boy]

HEX has a chance to give gamers a better and completely different experience from a digital-only TCG than a paper TCG can

Then do it? Put up or shut up and stop ripping off cards.

 

[Fularu]

https://hextcg.com/hex-update-from-cory/


Pretty general statement saying we're going all in on this claim and not backing down.

They don't have any other choice. They know they've lifted MTG wholesale, so they either shut the project down or fight it in courts knowing they'll probably lose but try to buy some time and hope.

 

[dmcAxle]

Easy for someone who
1) Has probably never actually played the game (stated yourself before editing it out)
2) Probably doesn't know the game past the Wizards complaint that does not know anything on the non-pvp side or selfishly regards it as nothing when it is half the game
3) Doesn't know the entire card pool that already features hundreds cards not efficiently possible in the paper games

to say. I mean the concept of MMOTCG is so unique that you don't even consider it because you've never actually experienced a game with it. Ignoring more than half a game experience + ignoring over half the card pool just because of the 5 color pie being present is so fair. If everyone used your one sided logic of picking and choosing what is "original" then we'd all only have a couple games to actually play in the world. From a consumers standpoint HEX should be a godsend because it is strictly a superior game to MTG. Wizards might be mad because "r&d was stolen!" but to us it succeeding should be a good thing if one replaces the other entirely with its competitive advantage.

 

[FStop7]

So is this WotC warming up their lawyers vs. an easy target in preparation to go after Hearthstone?

 

[Fularu]

Easy for someone who
1) Has probably never actually played the game (stated yourself before editing it out)
2) Probably doesn't know the game past the Wizards complaint that does not know anything on the non-pvp side or selfishly regards it as nothing when it is half the game
3) Doesn't know the entire card pool that already features 200+ cards not efficiently possible in the paper games

to say. I mean the concept of MMOTCG is so unique that you don't even consider it because you've never actually experienced a game with it. Ignoring more than half a game experience + ignoring over half the card pool just because of the 5 color pie being present is so fair. If everyone used your one sided logic of picking and choosing what is "original" then we'd all only have a couple games to actually play in the world.

1 - Youtube videos don't show such a *radical* difference with what you already achieve within MTG and unlike, say, Hearthstone, if no one told me it was the HEX game, I would have thought it was a chinese ripoff of MTG

2 - I'm looking at this game from a gameplay mechanic, again through gameplay videos. By all means, show me something that's so radically different instead of bitching that people "don't know what they're talking about".

3 - Out of the 476 cards, I haven't seen 200+ (that would mean one out of two) cards that are radically different and impossible in a paper TCG.

Most of my friends who play Hex tell me that it's prety much MTG, and I have quite a few crazy TCG friends in my circle. Why should I trust them less than you?

 

[TheYanger]

So is this WotC warming up their lawyers vs. an easy target in preparation to go after Hearthstone?

Hearthstone is radically different from MtG. Hex isn't.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Should LoL sue these guys too or is it okay? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawngate

Except that's a horrible false equivalency considering LoL is based on DotA which was derived from Aeon of Strife. Prior Art meant Riot could never patent their game, so anyone can shamelessly rip it off (ironically much like they themselves did) and as long as they don't steal any assets are more than welcome to from a legal standpoint. LoL is definitely NOT the first ARTS game and didn't really do anything original other than make a shitload of money.

Hearthstone is radically different from MtG. Hex isn't.

It's about as far from MTG as a CCG can get. It has a lot of the same elements but they are completely out of place compared to MTG. Heroes are similar to Planeswalkers but are always present, deck composition is handled differently, mana generation is a static system instead of dependant on cards you draw, combat resolution is very different, and the way cards interact is a lot more implied than it is literal like in Magic. The games look, feel, and play, nothing alike.

 

[Minsc]

So is this WotC warming up their lawyers vs. an easy target in preparation to go after Hearthstone?

Yeah, Hearthstone is so safe from any lawsuit it really shouldn't ever be mentioned again. MtG and Hearthstone are about as different as you can get while still being card games. For every one thing you can list that's similar, there's 10 things that are different, if not more. Hex... more the other way around, for everything one thing that is different from MtG in Hex, there's 10 that are the same, or more. However... I still personally believe what they're doing is fine though I wish they were a little more thorough in checking a MtG card wiki before finalizing their cards, but even still, I guess we'll see what the courts decide.

 

[TheYanger]

Except that's a horrible false equivalency considering LoL is based on DotA which was derived from Aeon of Strife. Prior Art meant Riot could never patent their game, so anyone can shamelessly rip it off (ironically much like they themselves did) and as long as they don't steal any assets are more than welcome to from a legal standpoint. LoL is definitely NOT the first ARTS game and didn't really do anything original other than make a shitload of money.



It's about as far from MTG as a CCG can get. It has a lot of the same elements but they are completely out of place compared to MTG. Heroes are similar to Planeswalkers but are always present, deck composition is handled differently, mana generation is a static system instead of dependant on cards you draw, combat resolution is very different, and the way cards interact is a lot more implied than it is literal like in Magic. The games look, feel, and play, nothing alike.

I...agree? That's what I said, assuming you're talking about Hearthstone, since that's true of that game and not of Hex.

 

[neurosisxeno]

I...agree? That's what I said, assuming you're talking about Hearthstone, since that's true of that game and not of Hex.

I was expanding on your comment. I don't see how anyone could imply they are even remotely similar.

 

[DemurOnion]

The rules are almost exactly copy-pasted which is probably the basis for this lawsuit. I'm surprised Cryptozoic lasted this long.

Yeah, this guy is hilarious in some parts. We basically just used their card rule foundation lol? Ummmm, yeah.

That being said Magic can dump on itself. DOTP is a franchise that barely gets any attention despite its popularity. These guys are just mad that people are doing digital better than them.

Put some money into your franchises you dirty fucking mutts.

 

[RMI]

Then do it? Put up or shut up and stop ripping off cards.

Agreed. I can't believe this thing made it this far, or that the "designers' can keep a straight-face when they've pillaged so many ideas wholesale. It looks like there are some innovations hidden in there, but it's hard to see them in the face of what are basically functional reprints of magic cards.

 

[dmcAxle]

3 - Out of the 476 cards I haven't seen 200+ (that would mean one out of two) cards that are radically different and impossible in a paper TCG.

Other two points you can research yourself. Here's some sites for that!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game
http://hextcg.com/


@Original Digital Only Effects:
I counted just for you. Set 1 has 350ish cards. You're counting tokens in your list. I'm also just counting set 1 and not tokens. Only the cards that create tokens (So one card is technically 3 cards but I'll count it as 1)

Source: http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/#!/cards

13 Random Generating Abilities (Ingenuity Engine and Cosmic Transmogrifier as the best examples)
17 Transformation Cards (Oh this...? This is my token side deck! It contains all my unique effect tokens (not just x/x power vanillas) Don't mind it.)
26 Charge Power Related Abilities
17 Socketed Cards
5 Escalation Cards
8 cards that add cards into your deck (Shit..I'm out of sleeves for Ancestors Chosen)
15 Inspire cards (Inspire that lasts forever doesn't exist in mtg due to memory on what was and what wasn't inspired)
7 Revert cards (Mechanic created to counter permanent effects)
5 Incantations that transform all copies into another card
5 Cards that other mechanics ignored generally defy a humans memory and would require 24/7 pen and paper (Zombie Plague comes to mind as the hardest..keeping track of -1/-1s in deck..how would you do that? Tracking individual copies too. Slipping paper in them would increase the weight aka cheating and you would need new slips for every time it is modified)

1 Reginald Lancashire (Weevil Underwood up in here)
1 Sabotage (Got any extra sleeves to match yours??)
5 Master/Pet Relationship (Pets never forget who the master is..no matter where it goes)
9 +x/+- permanent card cost cards
3 affect cards inside the deck (Zombie plague excluded ofc)
3 create card in hand out of thin air ("Tokens" also can return to your hand or deck, but we won't count them)
4 Permanent stat bonus that counters can't track (gaining keywords w/o a required condition but just from paying mana for example)
Total: 144
Damn. 56 short of my claim. What a clone. Then we're excluding the PVE cards, all of set 2, all of set 3, etc that are already completed and being worked on behind the scenes.

- Bonus: Due to permanent card text added to creatures..enchantments don't need to exist. Good thing too because enchantments suck balls and MTG has to always give them effects like Rancor for them to actually be competitive. (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/VoidSocietyCognac.jpg)

That's ignoring cards that are unique texts but can be done in MTG which would be another good chunk (Like non-enchantments that could be enchantments!). Well above 250 with those. I did my best to prevent overlap but I don't have the greatest memory myself so it might be +- 10. Some categories are smaller than they should be due to skipping cards that overlap.

 

[Birgitte2004]

What's the difference between Hex having new cards, and me trying to sell a made-by-me Magic expansion?

I think a line needs to be drawn between "new cards" and "different game".

And I have yet to see a pro-Hex argument that isn't "Hey, it has different cards".

 

[charlequin]

2 - I'm looking at this game from a gameplay mechanic, again through gameplay videos.

Requisite reminder for the current page that game mechanics are explicitly and unambiguously not subject to copyright.

It looks like there are some innovations hidden in there, but it's hard to see them in the face of what are basically functional reprints of magic cards.

It's actually quite easy to see them when you sit down and play the game, since even in a basic draft (where you're mostly using common cards) stuff like the socketing, card creation, permanent transformations, and other digital-only mechanics come up and pretty significantly affect the feel of play.

 

[dmcAxle]

What's the difference between Hex having new cards, and me trying to sell a made-by-me Magic expansion?

I think a line needs to be drawn between "new cards" and "different game".

And I have yet to see a pro-Hex argument that isn't "Hey, it has different cards".

The fact that they have to be coded and bug free? Can you create video games?

 

[Haly]

And I have yet to see a pro-Hex argument that isn't "Hey, it has different cards".

How about "providing a much desired digital experience that Wizards has durdled on for a decade"?

I think that's been brought up somewhere in this thread.

 

[ultron87]

@Original Digital Only Effects:
I counted just for you. Set 1 has 350ish cards. You're counting tokens in your list. I'm also just counting set 1 and not tokens. Only the cards that create tokens (So one card is technically 3 cards but I'll count it as 1)

*list*

A lot of those could be done in paper. Some would be sloppy or require something like the double faced cards that were in the Innistrad set from a few years back. But arguing through them individually isn't really worth it. The really telling thing is that the Hex/Magic comparison is the only time you need to get down to the brass tacks of individual card design when trying to show that two card games are different.

 

[Shrennin]

It's funny that a lot of these same arguments against Hex would, if used against video games, devastate the video game industry.

 

[TheYanger]

Other two points you can research yourself. Here's some sites for that!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game
http://hextcg.com/


@Original Digital Only Effects:
I counted just for you. Set 1 has 350ish cards. You're counting tokens in your list. I'm also just counting set 1 and not tokens. Only the cards that create tokens (So one card is technically 3 cards but I'll count it as 1)

Source: http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/#!/cards

13 Random Generating Abilities (Ingenuity Engine and Cosmic Transmogrifier as the best examples)
17 Transformation Cards (Oh this...? This is my token side deck! It contains all my unique effect tokens (not just x/x power vanillas) Don't mind it.)
26 Charge Power Related Abilities
17 Socketed Cards
5 Escalation Cards
8 cards that add cards into your deck (Shit..I'm out of sleeves for Ancestors Chosen)
15 Inspire cards (Inspire that lasts forever doesn't exist in mtg due to memory on what was and what wasn't inspired)
7 Revert cards (Mechanic created to counter permanent effects)
5 Incantations that transform all copies into another card
5 Cards that other mechanics ignored generally defy a humans memory and would require 24/7 pen and paper (Zombie Plague comes to mind as the hardest..keeping track of -1/-1s in deck..how would you do that? Tracking individual copies too. Slipping paper in them would increase the weight aka cheating and you would need new slips for every time it is modified)

1 Reginald Lancashire (Weevil Underwood up in here)
1 Sabotage (Got any extra sleeves to match yours??)
5 Master/Pet Relationship (Pets never forget who the master is..no matter where it goes)
9 +x/+- permanent card cost cards
3 affect cards inside the deck (Zombie plague excluded ofc)
3 create card in hand out of thin air ("Tokens" also can return to your hand or deck, but we won't count them)
4 Permanent stat bonus that counters can't track (gaining keywords w/o a required condition but just from paying mana for example)
Total: 144
Damn. 56 short of my claim. What a clone. Then we're excluding the PVE cards, all of set 2, all of set 3, etc that are already completed and being worked on behind the scenes.

- Bonus: Due to permanent card text added to creatures..enchantments don't need to exist. Good thing too because enchantments suck balls and MTG has to always give them effects like Rancor for them to actually be competitive. (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/VoidSocietyCognac.jpg)

That's ignoring cards that are unique texts but can be done in MTG which would be another good chunk (Like non-enchantments that could be enchantments!). Well above 250 with those. I did my best to prevent overlap but I don't have the greatest memory myself so it might be +- 10. Some categories are smaller than they should be due to skipping cards that overlap.

Some of this type of stuff listed already exists in Magic, and almost all of it COULD be replicated, don't mistake 'doesn't have' with 'could not have'. Double faced cards are probably something people liked to bring up as 'could not have' existed in magic just a couple short years ago. Yet here we are. Plenty of random effects, plenty of bringing cards from outside of the game and putting them into your deck, all of that shit. Know why they don't do more of that? Because it's inconvenient and annoying, not because they can't. Big difference.

 

[dmcAxle]

Wait..you mean bridging the gap between inconvenient and annoying to really fun and interesting ISN'T why every card game in the genre needs to go digital? What...? I'm aware that these mechanics don't exist in Magic because they are hard to pull off without requiring a lot of coins, paper and dice. That's why digital needs to exists.