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I fail to see any significant connection to Zardoz. What, a closed off utopian/dystopian society? That's common to a lot of science fiction.
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1973 Japanese Magazine shows Big Daddy & Little Sister
- Thread starter Adry9
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I fail to see any significant connection to Zardoz. What, a closed off utopian/dystopian society? That's common to a lot of science fiction.
Not surprising. Japanese gaming fans have an inferiority complex at times.
The irony is that they're calling Levine a hack even though it's refreshing seeing the distinctive and wide ranging art direction Japanese pop art once had like this:
Before succumbing to an artistic, and stubborn hegemony like this:
You should have taken an image from some 90s anime, they looked even weirder sometimes. Air's character designs were just a bit strange, even for its time. Laugh if you want though but it also has one of the most heart shattering stories of all time.
Ignoring, the magazine's cover, I always thought that Little Sisters and Big Daddies had some Japanese inspiration. Now that is hardly a bad thing, some great works are often based or inspired by something else, consciously or unconsciously. The first Matrix film borrows a lot of inspiration from Ghost in the Shell, sometimes taking whole scenes. Same thing with Black Swan and Perfect Blue.
I find it interesting that someone mentioned Carl Jung in this thread. You might want to read up on not only synchronicity but also on his ideas about archetypes in general. I get a sense that Little Sisters and Big Daddies are very archetipal in nature. I'm not going to make any conclusions based on my meager knowledge though. The basic idea is that some images and ideas are ingrained in the human psyche, thus it's not impossible for a person with no prior knowledge to have an idea or an image that came from 2000 years ago. It's also not impossible for two people to come up with the same thing, yet beinh completely unrelated and oblivious of each other. I believe there are some documented cases of this.
*ahem*
I wonder what the story behind that image and if it actually ties into a story in a magazine.
This is outstanding.
I never played the game i was more talking about the movie
Also a pretty good movie
And the game makes a very good job at preserving the mood.
Doesn't need to be inspired at all, could just be a similar concept as a starting point or a common influence.
Japan conceptionally outdating Western works is pretty common too, Hagio Moto did the gay(ish) vampire with The Poe Family three years before Anne Rice's Interview with the Vampire, Nerawareta Gakuen (a juvenile SF story which describes fascists taking over a school) was 8 years before The Wave.
Even though they weren't necessarily inspired by them, they still got beaten by the Japanese in putting it out first.
Japan conceptionally outdating Western works is pretty common too, Hagio Moto did the gay(ish) vampire with The Poe Family three years before Anne Rice's Interview with the Vampire, Nerawareta Gakuen (a juvenile SF story which describes fascists taking over a school) was 8 years before The Wave.
Even though they weren't necessarily inspired by them, they still got beaten by the Japanese in putting it out first.
anotherthought
Member
Hardly a "random" magazine considering it's been published for over 50 years.
Not to mention concept artists often love to scrounge obscure sources; so a well-known science fiction magazine with spectacular covers doesn't seem particularly farfetched.
Not that I have a problem with it if it's so. Taking inspiration, reinterpreting, expanding ideas or whatever, is like one of the pillars of art. Especially in "genre fiction".
Its possible. Look at this thread.
You can argue thats why they used it, 'cause they wouldnt think anyone would stumble upon it.
jacksepticeye
Member
Even if it was the source for inspiration I don't have issue with it. People get inspiration from lots of things all the time, I wouldn't write off the whole game as "copied" based on one image
revolverjgw
Member
You mean The Most Dangerous Game to The Running Man to Battle Royale to Hunger games scenario (and probably all the way back to some fucking Greek myth that's similar, I dunno)
There's nothing new under the sun
I haven't played Bioshock Infinite and never will, can someone explain?
SuperAngelo64
Banned
Motherfucker, I was just thinking of a Zardoz game a few days ago...
Except I was really drunk and imagining the concept art done by Yoshitaka Amano.
sublimit
Banned
I bet that even if the magazine showed an exact copy of Big Daddy's suit you would still have the same people in this thread defending Levine saying "OMG it's just a coincidence guyz!!"
I mean obviously there's no way in hell Levine could have made a research about science fiction stories before writing Bioshock and happened upon the most popular SF magazine in Japan (which is still being published since 1959 and had many famous American writers contributing to it). Yeah there's no way.And it's funny how Levine's defenders say that it would have been impossible for him to have got his hands on a 1970's Japanese magazine while completely forgeting a very small thing called "google".
But the most funny thing for me is Kotaku's question to Levine.Seriously what did they expected him to say? "Yeah i've seen that magazine before but i forgot to mention it"? lol
I mean obviously there's no way in hell Levine could have made a research about science fiction stories before writing Bioshock and happened upon the most popular SF magazine in Japan (which is still being published since 1959 and had many famous American writers contributing to it). Yeah there's no way.And it's funny how Levine's defenders say that it would have been impossible for him to have got his hands on a 1970's Japanese magazine while completely forgeting a very small thing called "google".
But the most funny thing for me is Kotaku's question to Levine.Seriously what did they expected him to say? "Yeah i've seen that magazine before but i forgot to mention it"? lol
Dragon1893
Member
Like the Kotaku article points out and you can see in the Bioshock artbook, both the big daddy and the little sister went through a ton of different iterations that aren't even remotely close to what they ended up looking like. If they had copied from a source that strongly resembles the final designs they wouldn't have gone through that process. The basic idea would've been there from the start.
Though I guess you could argue that they only saw the magazine while going through the process of designing the characters and said "let's go with this".
I dunno, it does seem like an unlikely coincidence considering how similar it is.
Though I guess you could argue that they only saw the magazine while going through the process of designing the characters and said "let's go with this".
I dunno, it does seem like an unlikely coincidence considering how similar it is.
sublimit
Banned
This means nothing.They could have been trying different designs and ideas until someone saw that cover and decided to base their designs on that.
Edited:Oh you edited.
Dragon1893
Member
This means nothing.They could have been trying different designs and ideas until someone saw that cover and decided to base their designs on that.
Edited:Oh you edited.
Yeah, had the same thought.
Would like to know more about the story that cover belongs to.
sublimit
Banned
What this has to do with the topic??
It seems to me that some people here are deliberately trying to shit on this topic maybe hoping that thread will be closed.
LeaveBritney/LevineAlone.jpg
Defenders of what? You're phrasing this as if Levine and his team committed a malicious or mean spirited act that requires his own elaboration, that he and his team are guilty of something.
Also your "google" point doesn't hold up. I've searched for "Japanese Science Fiction magazine cover 1973" "Japanese Science Fiction diver 1973" "Japanese science fiction magazine cover diver 1973", the image search results show no diver except for the article that was posted yesterday.
His point is the diving art style isn't specific to the picture in the OP.
Also, shit on the topic to get the thread closed? What? That's one of the silliest accusations I've seen thrown on this forum. His post didn't require pondering, his point was quite clear.
There's another camp that says "Who cares?". Irrational was pretty open about their inspirations on the Bioshock themes, gameplay and art. What would be the point then of them deliberately hiding this influence? It's absurd. What could they lose by disclosing that influence? I would bet that most would find it really cool that Big Daddies/Little Sisters were inspired in such an obscure source (at least for Westerners). And this could be the case that the original concept artist that pitched the Diving Dress giant/Little child idea/art was unconsciously using its visual memories to create this. There are so many non-improper reasons for this to happen that people arguing that this is inequivocal truth that Irrational/Levine stole some art are the ones that show some bias.
And you know what? I was a bit disingenuous starting this post by hinting that I don't care about this issue. I do care. Not because of some drive to step up defending Levine or Irrational artistic integrity but to defend art inspiration and sourcing in general. This shouldn't be a reason for polemic, just a cool fait-divers.
Why wouldn't he admit he had seen it? It's not like he has any trouble talking about his other sources. There is no reason for him to lie. It is more likely if the design was inspired in some way by that cover, someone else involved in the design took inspiration from the image and Levine just never knew.
I am not sure what there is to defend Levine from anyway. It's not like adding that image to the long list of inspirations for the Bioshock games is a scandal or anything.
That's what agitates me the most, that any and all similarities means that one source was the cause of something's creation, that because of that one thing they were able to create what they created. As if its some sort of gigantic revelation, that everything up till this point was some sort of unknown lie.
People keep spouting out that lame "levine defenders" bullshit, no, this is defending artists and creators from illogical trains of thought. The Assassins Creed programmer saying the new LOTR game had AC coding in it because the characters both climb things in a similar fashion is also really shitty.
Adding to this, would Levine really care if admitting to inspiration causes backlash towards Bioshock? I mean, his studio got shutdown recently, its not like he gains anything from not admitting to what happened to Bioshock creatively.
sublimit
Banned
Levine,2K or the game itself.Take your pick.
I don't know maybe i'm old fashioned or something but when someone takes inspiration (or blatantly copies) from something i find it obligatory that he/she should at least mention the original source.Otherwise i find it unethical and unprofessional.
Um are you serious?
Bioshock came out in 2007 so the pre-production phase could have started around 2003-2004.Do you seriously believe that google search would bring you the same results as it did 10 years ago?
And that's not even the point.Someone from 2K might have searched for something completely different and happened upon an article that showed this image.There were famous American writers included in the magazine,maybe the search was about one of those writers,or one of their stories.The possibilities are almost infinite.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
I'm going to assume Ken's telling the truth because I don't see why he'd lie about it. That doesn't mean somebody on the team didn't see the picture and take some inspiration from it buy ultimately what does it matter if they were inspired by a really cool sci-fi cover? I mean they already did it with the Atlus boss.
So, Google was a better source of finding images based on key phrases a decade ago?
Also, did a search on "Japanese Science Fiction magazine 1973" from a custom range of Jan 1st 2003 to December 31st 2005. Nothing in the first 10 pages. If you can find any articles on google about this magazine, I'll retract my it not being on google easily point. I'm only dogging on your google point so much because you're treating this magazine's easy availability article wise as fact.
sublimit
Banned
It matters because there's a big difference presenting something as yours when you've actually copied it from somewhere else.
It's perfectly fine to be inspired and even copy other sources but you should at least have the decency to admit that you did so.
You either clearly have no clue about how internet works or you can't understand what i wrote.
You're looking about specific searches when the result could have come up from a search that had nothing to do with "Japanese Science Fiction magazine 1973".
SeriousApes
Member
Why would Levine have to admit to anything? For all we know, someone on the art team saw this image years prior and it became ingrained in their subconscious. It happens all the time. Inspiration can come from anywhere and the artist may not even be aware of what influenced them.
Ludicrous Speed
Banned
Why are people getting so worked up about this?
Even if the big daddy and little sister characters were inspired from that magazine, who cares? The plot was inspired from Atlas Shrugged. It's still a fantastic game.
Even if the big daddy and little sister characters were inspired from that magazine, who cares? The plot was inspired from Atlas Shrugged. It's still a fantastic game.
We need to get worked up beacuse principles something something!
If anything, this thread is a good representation of the strong distrust that the hardcore game community has towards big designers/developers/publishers these days. How quick people are to think they've had one pulled over on them, on even the thinnest rationale.
Jimnymebob
Member
No idea if it's been mentioned, but the bigger question should be why is Mike from Monster's Inc. on the diver's chest?
Neat find though.
Neat find though.
ab.aeterno
Member
The problem is the conclusion of malicious theft is fucking bullshit without any foundation. You may as well argue correlation is causation while you're at it, because you're taking visually similar imagery existing in parallel and, in a vacuum of evidence, screaming that they stole it and proceeding to do mental gymnastics about Google from 10 years ago to shut down anyone rallying behind common fucking sense.
I mean, you literally have to ignore the totality of the history of creation to not realize that parallel or repeated inspiration happens on a planet of billions of people. There are dozens of well known cases of people simultaneously happening upon a similar idea without it being theft.
Levine (who by the way is not the sole creator of the game or all art therein) has been open about his past inspirations, so why would he not be for this? He was open about using Ayn Rand directly for the old, doubt he'd give a fuck about this.
So Ken refuses to acknowledge some obscure Japanese sci-fi magazine, but he has no problems admitting his team took the imagery for Little Sisters from one of the most famous horror movies of all time?
SeriousApes
Member
He's just trying to avoid the hipster stigma. You know how the internet is.
sublimit
Banned
Do you seriously compare the two without being able to realize that the reference to the Shining as a source of inspiration is much more subtle and inconsequential than the blatant copy of the magazine's cover?
Now I am not suggesting plagiarism, I cannot say. But.....the link between The Shining imagery and Bioshock would fall into the category of inspired...whereas the SF cover would appear more directly influenced. If you wanted to maintain artistic credibility in terms of the originality and integrity of the idea which would you choose?
EDIT: ^ Beaten with a sledgehammer....I did however use a scalpel...
So do you think the game was built around one magazine cover?
If you can't find the story that the cover is for, assuming that featured story is Bioshock 1's story is a humongous leap of faith.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
Atlus at the end of the game turns into the character on the cover of Atlus Shrugged, he even shares the same name. I can't remember every hearing people complain about that element of the wank ending to that game.
ichtyander
Member
I'm only speaking for myself of course, but I for one love to discover video game trivia, obscure sources of certain visual designs or concepts etc. SF2's Ken's theme is a fantastic song but it's still heavily inspired by Mighty Wings from Top Gun. It's the same with the entire Video game facts that blow your mind thread here on GAF. This whole Bioshock thing reminds me of that Italian film with the two guys dressed as plumbers which, even if it's probably unrelated to Super Mario Bros, is still a very cool find.
Honestly, that "Lighthouse" cover feels like someone made a Bioshock Infinite joke, a 90s point & click retro-demake spoof. It's not that a lighthouse, a baby and a mechanical bird are anything original or special by themselves, but combining and arranging them together in such a particular way (with addition to the baby being kidnapped through a portal) makes it all freakishly similar.
Did Levine or someone from the art team play or see this game (and the japanese mag cover) and rip them off? Maybe it's a freakish coincidence? Or some of the devs simply had these elements buried somewhere deep in memory and weren't aware they even used them? Or perhaps the japanese mag cover and the "Lighthouse" game were inspired by Bioshock Infinite in a very Arthur C. Clarkian, psychic echo through non-linear time way?
I don't know, nor do I judge, but I do very much care about this intriguing piece of trivia. Who knows, maybe a day or a few years from now, someone on the art team will mention having played Lighthouse or is a fan of the Japanese artist or the magazine, and that'll be that.
