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[MisterGrey3000]

I've enjoyed them all too, just ALBW really struck all the wrong cords. Outside of the blatant problems with the dungeons and puzzles was the way the characters and the story were treated, everything felt so bland and underdeveloped that I had a hard time enjoying it.

The presentation was pretty damn bland but I would chalk that up to the fact that they were dead set on copying ALTTP's archaic presentation. I don't think the game play structure had much to do with what happened there. The art style for Zelda U(and the bit of music that was played)gives me a lot of hope in terms of story, characters, themes, and other things like that.

And as for Link, he is required for a Zelda game to be a Zelda game to me, I'm not strictly against a female Link but I'd vastly prefer being able to just play as good old Link, no customization please as I'd rather he just stay a semi-character who is blank but is still a character.

Yeah, a customizable character is a huge "no no" for me. It doesn't fit the style of the mainline series at all. They might as well make a brand new fantasy IP or spin-off at that point.

finally, all this talk about reinventing Zelda is honestly worrisome to me, I don't want to see too many things change, so it's hard for me to be hyped.

Same here.
Especially when those new changes don't mesh well with the puzzle design aspect of the series.

 

[Huh?]

To me, ALBW felt more shallow than a lot of Zelda experiences, in a lot of different ways. Cutting out the tutorials and "hand holding" is fine, even though that issue is overstated IMO, but I think they streamlined it too much in some ways, and thus it felt more bland and less deep than other Zelda experiences.

Anyway, I wonder if this Zelda will still have bigger towns or if it's going to take a page out of the original's book in regards to NPCs too. I love the prospect of NPCs living out in the overworld like those farmers seem to, but I hope there are some bigger civilizations still.

 

[OmegaSmash]

No way it'll be 1080p60. I'm betting 720p30.

If more of the same is something you don't like, you should probably stop playing Zelda games.

I actually meant 1080/30 sorry. Didn't notice it after I posted it.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

Dungeon design complexity is not correlated to overworld freedom and item system..

I beg to differ.
The fact that they know where the player is going to be at any given place and time allows them to scale up the dungeons in anyway they want.
They're not really limited by the idea of "no barriers". If they want to create a dungeon where you need to solve complex puzzles using 3 or 4 specific items they can do it without wondering if they'll impede the player's progression.
ALBW basically promised a game play structure with almost no barriers and succeeded at the cost of good puzzle design.

And you don't even need items to create good dungeon designs, they can make use of environmental puzzles such as water redirection or the Twilight Temple that is based on the orb concept.

Well, the majority of Zelda's puzzles are environmental. You just use the items to interact with the environment in unique and thoughtful ways. The gadgets add variety to the puzzle design, and give the devs the freedom to go nuts with the world they create.

 

[FreeMufasa]

Y'all gonna cry when its revealed to be an isometric game :lol

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I beg to differ.
The fact that they know where the player is going to be at any given place and time allows them to scale up the dungeons in anyway they want.
They're not really limited by the idea of "no barriers". If they want to create a dungeon where you need to solve complex puzzles using 3 or 4 specific items they can do it without wondering if they'll impede the player's progression.
ALBW's basically promised a game play structure with almost no barriers and succeeded at the cost of good puzzle design.



Well, the majority of Zelda's puzzles are environmental. You just use the items to interact with the environment in unique and thoughtful ways. The gadgets add variety to the puzzle design, and give the devs the freedom to go nuts with the world they create.

The fact that it's open world doesn't necessarily strike me as saying that they are going to let you do "any" dungeon in any order. They could easily do the dungeons in sections of 3 for example where you will get the next 3 or 4 gadgets you need for that set of dungeons by doing tasks and other things in the open world. Then you can tackle the dungeon in the set in any order. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Clefargle]

1080p/30FPS is almost guaranteed. They've already said that they aren't 60FPS isn't going to be standard for Zelda, and Nintendo usually avoids doing bullshots. And I don't remember ever seeing a direct feed MK8 1080p screenshot. They were 720p ever since E3 2013.

Yeah, was gonna post this. Them screens looked soooooooo smooth

 

[EloquentM]

Y'all gonna cry when its revealed to be an isometric game :lol

Troll harder mufasa.

Spoiler

i await your next thread

 

[BY2K]

Can we all just take a few more minutes to appreciate this amazing pic? Seriously it’s absolutely perfect and pretty much everything I’ve wanted from a Zelda game! How pretty is it! Unlike recent 3D Zelda’s this doesn’t look barren, it actually looks packed with personality and I actually wanna dive right in and start exploring! The overall look, the use of colours and inviting openness of it are all making my mouth water...if you look closely you can see what I’m assuming to be white goats and people with traditional Chinese farmer hats on. Also...on the right you can see a massive ladder leading up to some wooden platforms. The only thing that worries me is that this is more than likely a bull-shot. It doesn’t quite look that good from the actual footage we saw – the footage looked like it had more fog. And it’s hard to tell – it might just be the angle, but I hope the field is as big as I’m thinking it is when looking at the pic. But nitpicking aside, GIMMIE! GIMMIE! GIMMIE! GIMMIE!

That was confirmed in-engine. Nintendo doesn't do bullshots.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

Yeah, was gonna post this. Them screens looked soooooooo smooth

Too smooth in my opinion. I mean, look at Wind Waker HD:

That's 1080p and still super jaggy. I don't see how the Wii U can run a game that looks as good as Zelda Wii U at 1080p with AA. These screenshots have to be bullshots.

 

[Ansatz]

The fact that it's open world doesn't necessarily strike me as saying that they are going to let you do "any" dungeon in any order. They could easily do the dungeons in sections of 3 for example where you will get the next 3 or 4 gadgets you need for that set of dungeons by doing tasks and other things in the open world. Then you can tackle the dungeon in the set in any order. Rinse and repeat.

This is what I mean with tiered dungeons. You have do complete the first three before advancing to the next set of three, that means by the fourth dungeon the developer knows you have gained 3 items.

If anyone finds ALBW's dungeons dumbed down, that's fine, but imo this is not a direct consequence of overworld nor item structure. I personally loved the dungeons in ALBW, the puzzles were based on the idea of combining wall Link with the required item. So for example realizing you need to first plant a bomb near the switch and then quickly merge with a wall that rotates upon explosion, that's 2 steps of complexity which was the theme of the game and probably a conscious decision, not the result of its game design. They could've easily added more layers of depth without changing the game's fundamentals.

Y'all gonna cry when its revealed to be an isometric game :lol

I'm still not convinced this is a proper 3D Zelda, but I think it's more likely it actually is than I was prior to reveal. I think there's a chance the game has an overhead-ish camera perspective that automatically scrolls and also dynamically pans to more traditional angles depending on the particular area you are in. This leads to a more directed game which means approachable 3D design, because remember many people find 360 degree type games to be intimidating.

 

[jgwhiteus]

Too smooth in my opinion. I mean, look at Wind Waker HD:

That's 1080p and still super jaggy. I don't see how the Wii U can run a game that looks as good as Zelda Wii U at 1080p with AA. These screenshots have to be bullshots.

I'm not familiar with Wind Waker HD's development, but wouldn't it have made sense for them to use many of the original's 480P assets upscaled, rather than re-doing every single asset? That could explain many of the jaggies. I don't think an HD port should be used to judge the graphical fidelity of a game developed for an HD console.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

I'm not familiar with Wind Waker HD's development, but wouldn't it have made sense for them to use many of the original's 480P assets upscaled, rather than re-doing every single asset? That could explain many of the jaggies. I don't think an HD port should be used to judge the graphical fidelity of a game developed for an HD console.

The jaggies in WW that I'm talking about are from the polygons, specifically the edges of the boat in that image, which shouldn't have anything to do with assets. This leads me to the opposite conclusion, that for such an old game, it should be easier for the Wii U to render it in 1080p than a new game with modern effects.

I mean, look at this bow. Not a jaggy in sight.

 

[Mango The Magician]

This is what I mean with tiered dungeons. You have do complete the first three before advancing to the next set of three, that means by the fourth dungeon the developer knows you have gained 3 items.

If anyone finds ALBW's dungeons dumbed down, that's fine, but imo this is not a direct consequence of overworld nor item structure. I personally loved the dungeons in ALBW, the puzzles were based on the idea of combining wall Link with the required item. So for example realizing you need to first plant a bomb near the switch and then quickly merge with a wall that rotates upon explosion, that's 2 steps of complexity which was the theme of the game and probably a conscious decision, not the result of its game design. They could've easily added more layers of depth without changing the game's fundamentals.

What about the 2nd and 3rd dungeon though? You'd have to find all the items beforehand for the developers to know which items you have and prepare for that or else each dungeon on each tier would be of the same difficulty and simplicity to each other. Basically dungeon 2 would be just as easy as 3 and 1. The logical answer would be to just put the items in the overworld, but that could potentially lead to the dungeons being shorter than usual. I'm not 100% confident being non-linear leads to bad dungeons but the Zelda Team hasn't shown any reason to think otherwise, and personally some of their best dungeon work was in games that were highly linear (TP, SS).

 

[LordOfChaos]

What are you guys talking about with 1080p "is basically guaranteed"? This exact thing happened with the Mario Kart 8 press shots, and I think Mario 3D world as well, the shots made people think they were 1080p but they were internally rendered at 720 and upscaled.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I'm still not convinced this is a proper 3D Zelda, but I think it's more likely it actually is than I was prior to reveal. I think there's a chance the game has an overhead-ish camera perspective that automatically scrolls and also dynamically pans to more traditional angles depending on the particular area you are in. This leads to a more directed game which means approachable 3D design, because remember many people find 360 degree type games to be intimidating.

Genuine question

How do you reconcile this with Aonuma saying he wanted to fix the problem with 3D Zeldas where they had to stitch the world together and that if you can see an area, you can go to it? And obviously the overworld shot.

 

[shadyspace]

Was the 2015 in the thread title changed to sarcastic quotes?

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

What are you guys talking about with 1080p "is basically guaranteed"? This exact thing happened with the Mario Kart 8 press shots, and I think Mario 3D world as well, the shots made people think they were 1080p but they were internally rendered at 720 and upscaled.

No, they weren't. You can see for yourself here at Nintendo's E3 2013 press site:
http://media.nintendo.com/pressroom/E32013/

All 720p.

 

[LordOfChaos]

That was confirmed in-engine. Nintendo doesn't do bullshots.

Not only in engine, apparently gameplay too (just with developer camera angles)

http://www.gengame.net/2014/06/aonu...asnt-just-in-engine-it-was-actually-gameplay/

 

[Ansatz]

Genuine question

How do you reconcile this with Aonuma saying he wanted to fix the problem with 3D Zeldas where they had to stitch the world together and that if you can see an area, you can go to it? And obviously the overworld shot.

You can see Death Mountain from Hyrule Castle in OoT but you can't walk directly to it from there, have to go back to the central hub and access it from there. He's talking about creating an overworld in the style of 2D Zeldas where areas can be accessed from multiple directions.

Nintendo explicitly confirmed none of the footage shown is indicative of in-game camera angles.

As for the "go to an area you can see" like I said the camera pans dynamically, in Mario 3D World there are sections you can see what's directly ahead of you, it's not always "isometric" but definitely guided, the developer forces you to see what they want you to depending on your orientation in space.

The one thing that works against me is the uneveness of the terrain around Link, "isometric" type games usually are flat a la TW101, however the entire world you see is a relatively flat plane.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

Not only in engine, apparently gameplay too (just with developer camera angles)

http://www.gengame.net/2014/06/aonu...asnt-just-in-engine-it-was-actually-gameplay/

Wowza, amazing if true. But I don't see how that could be right. Unless this games makes heavy use of quick time events.

 

[BY2K]

Iwata did say at not the last investor meeting, but the one before that, that they knew they had to give everything they got when it comes to graphics for Zelda.

 

[zeldablue]

The camera might be more cinematic on the tv and more traditional on the pad.

Maybe

 

[gdt]

No way this is 1080p. Wii U still has old ass tech inside.

 

[Ansatz]

No way this is 1080p. Wii U still has old ass tech inside.

Isn't Smash Bros. native 1080p 60 fps?

 

[AniHawk]

But the movie was still better than the painting (am i right?)

really depends on the movie.

 

[Schnozberry]

Isn't Smash Bros. native 1080p 60 fps?

Yes.

The art style for Zelda does them lot of favors as well. You can get away with lower poly counts with this shading technique.

 

[Mine01]

To be fair the first 2 arrows he fire looks pretty gameplay-y, if that makes sense, and the third one (the jump) and be a lock on skill/ability/mechanic.

I think that scene can be real gameplay with "cinematic" camera angles.

 

[James Scott]

Not only in engine, apparently gameplay too (just with developer camera angles)

http://www.gengame.net/2014/06/aonu...asnt-just-in-engine-it-was-actually-gameplay/

I could see that, like MK8's trailers that showed different angles than what you would actually see...still, don't know how the last part is possible

 

[abstract alien]

Not only in engine, apparently gameplay too (just with developer camera angles)

http://www.gengame.net/2014/06/aonu...asnt-just-in-engine-it-was-actually-gameplay/

The animation...is real? Wow.

 

[B-Dubs]

Not only in engine, apparently gameplay too (just with developer camera angles)

http://www.gengame.net/2014/06/aonu...asnt-just-in-engine-it-was-actually-gameplay/

MOTHER OF GOD

 

[MisterGrey3000]

The fact that it's open world doesn't necessarily strike me as saying that they are going to let you do "any" dungeon in any order. They could easily do the dungeons in sections of 3 for example where you will get the next 3 or 4 gadgets you need for that set of dungeons by doing tasks and other things in the open world. Then you can tackle the dungeon in the set in any order. Rinse and repeat.

This is what I mean with tiered dungeons. You have do complete the first three before advancing to the next set of three, that means by the fourth dungeon the developer knows you have gained 3 items.

What about the 2nd and 3rd dungeon though? You'd have to find all the items beforehand for the developers to know which items you have and prepare for that or else each dungeon on each tier would be of the same difficulty and simplicity to each other. Basically dungeon 2 would be just as easy as 3 and 1. The logical answer would be to just put the items in the overworld, but that could potentially lead to the dungeons being shorter than usual. I'm not 100% confident being non-linear leads to bad dungeons but the Zelda Team hasn't shown any reason to think otherwise, and personally some of their best dungeon work was in games that were highly linear (TP, SS).

This is basically how I was going to respond to you guys' points. lol

 

[Sleeping Lesson]

I could see that, like MK8's trailers that showed different angles than what you would actually see...still, don't know how the last part is possible

I don't think that was "gameplay" in the strictest sense, but I can see how the horse-jump-arrow might be a gameplay mechanic if the combat is based around the bow like some have speculated.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

You can see Death Mountain from Hyrule Castle in OoT but you can't walk directly to it from there, have to go back to the central hub and access it from there. He's talking about creating an overworld in the style of 2D Zeldas where areas can be accessed from multiple directions.

Nintendo explicitly confirmed none of the footage shown is indicative of in-game camera angles.

As for the "go to an area you can see" like I said the camera pans dynamically, in Mario 3D World there are sections you can see what's directly ahead of you, it's not always "isometric" but definitely guided, the developer forces you to see what they want you to depending on your orientation in space.

The one thing that works against me is the uneveness of the terrain around Link, "isometric" type games usually are flat a la TW101, however the entire world you see is a relatively flat plane.

As a follow-up question: What's your strategy for when it's clearly not like what you're describing? Just not posting and hoping no one remembers enough to bring it up?

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

I don't think that was "gameplay" in the strictest sense, but I can see how the horse-jump-arrow might be a gameplay mechanic if the combat is based around the bow like some have speculated.

That would be great. Finally, the Legolas game we've always wanted.

 

[jmizzal]

To be fair the first 2 arrows he fire looks pretty gameplay-y, if that makes sense, and the third one (the jump) and be a lock on skill/ability/mechanic.

I think that scene can be real gameplay with "cinematic" camera angles.

Yup I can see it too, when he shoots the arrows you can hear them come out and it seems like a player is shooting them not like a cut scene shoot.

The jump off the house could be possible too, its just slowed down and the cam is panned to a close up of the weapon and then the players body

 

[Sleeping Lesson]

That would be great. Finally, the Legolas game we've always wanted.

Exactly! That would be totally awesome. The combat in Zelda is certainly a part that needs to be improved.

Also that final arrow animation is really quite intricate, with the draw flourish and trigger-pull to activate it. I don't mean to read into such a brief glimpse too much, but the multiple variations (bomb and taped-on laserblade thing) of arrows makes me think the bow will indeed be a big part of the combat.

 

[MattyG]

All of you guys thinking this won't have a traditional 3D Zelda camera system are out of your minds. There's no way it would have anything but that.

 

[Vermillion]

All of you guys thinking this won't have a traditional 3D Zelda camera system are out of your minds. There's no way it would have anything but that.

Seriously. If there's anything that we're sure of, it's that.

 

[Elfforkusu]

Exactly! That would be totally awesome. The combat in Zelda is certainly a part that needs to be improved.

People keep saying this, and I can't help but wonder if they didn't play the GC version of Twilight Princess. The melee in that game is sublime.

I have the utmost confidence in EAD3's ability to make a great combat system if they're free to use buttons for the controls.

 

[Sleeping Lesson]

Yeah I played Twilight Princess on Gamecube. Combat was fine, but there wasn't anything particularly dynamic or skillful about it.

 

[Elfforkusu]

Yeah I played Twilight Princess on Gamecube. Combat was fine, but there wasn't anything particularly dynamic or skillful about it.

I guess we have different definitions then.

I honestly can't think of a game that's done 3rd person melee controls better. Only problem was that there were no enemies good enough to test your skills on, so you had to handicap yourself to make it interesting.

 

[Ryoku]

Those shots are clearly bullshots. I doubt we will get that level of image quality, even if the game is 1080p.

 

[Effect]

Not only in engine, apparently gameplay too (just with developer camera angles)

http://www.gengame.net/2014/06/aonu...asnt-just-in-engine-it-was-actually-gameplay/

Here's the direct link to the Miiverse post as well.

https://miiverse.nintendo.net/replies/AYMHAAACAADMUKlyaFeo7g

 

[Sleeping Lesson]

I guess we have different definitions then.

I honestly can't think of a game that's done 3rd person melee controls better. Only problem was that there were no enemies good enough to test your skills on.

Maybe that's really what I mean? Enemies tend to be pretty dumb and samey. If I were being a dick, I'd point out that games like Bayonetta or DMC have much more complex and interesting melee combat, but I absolutely do not want Zelda to try to be like that and I don't think it's a good comparison anyway.

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

Exactly! That would be totally awesome. The combat in Zelda is certainly a part that needs to be improved.

Also that final arrow animation is really quite intricate, with the draw flourish and trigger-pull to activate it. I don't mean to read into such a brief glimpse too much, but the multiple variations (bomb and taped-on laserblade thing) of arrows makes me think the bow will indeed be a big part of the combat.

It probably is. I think there's a real chance the laser arrow is unique. Perhaps the defining item of the game. It's the same tech as the robot.

 

[jmizzal]

Those shots are clearly bullshots. I doubt we will get that level of image quality, even if the game is 1080p.

The game will look better then those shots when it comes out, those are not bullshots

 

[Ansatz]

As a follow-up question: What's your strategy for when it's clearly not like what you're describing? Just not posting and hoping no one remembers enough to bring it up?

We aren't allowed to speculate? I have come to realize that track record is very important on this forum, I personally don't see the issue in being wrong. It's all about the reasoning based on the information you had available at the time, not whether you got it right in the end.

 

[Persona7]

That was confirmed in-engine. Nintendo doesn't do bullshots.

I don't know about recently but Nintendo has absolutely released bullshots in the past.

 

[Sleeping Lesson]

As a follow-up question: What's your strategy for when it's clearly not like what you're describing? Just not posting and hoping no one remembers enough to bring it up?

Really? If somebody dug up his comment a year+ from now saying "SEE YOU WERE WRONG" the bigger embarrassment would be for the person bringing it back up.