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Will discussion of certain games be banned on Neogaf from here on out?
- Thread starter El Sloth
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I think ESRB rating is a pretty decent benchmark.
What about games like Manhunt?
Vire
Member
Fixed for you.
Angelus Errare
Banned
So strange how you got any of that out of my post.
Green Biker Dude
Banned
i think if these games got such a bad reaction that most of the userbase (say, 90%+) was basically negative about them, you could outright ban discussing them. if anything, people would probably not even want to talk about it. kind of like jack thompson some years ago. no one would support him in his "violent games make people violent" thing or whatever
the thing is, there seems to be a significant number of posters who either are against the ban, or who might even want to talk about the game. while the users don't make the rules and don't run the forum, to me, this is a bad and dangerous precedent because of that
imagine, for example, most of the mods are pro minority in these threads against white male protagonists. will anyone defending white male protagonists get banned? or will all future threads be locked because, say, the majority of the posters don't defend the same positions most of the mods do? what about people against gay marriage in the ot?
this, to me, seems to be a case "we don't like what the community likes, so no one is gonna like anything". i can see why a game about sex with minors is banned, but the problem here is more about what this could lead to rather than the ban itself. i mean, the mods can technically ban the discussion of whatever they want, but that's a pretty slippery slope
the thing is, there seems to be a significant number of posters who either are against the ban, or who might even want to talk about the game. while the users don't make the rules and don't run the forum, to me, this is a bad and dangerous precedent because of that
imagine, for example, most of the mods are pro minority in these threads against white male protagonists. will anyone defending white male protagonists get banned? or will all future threads be locked because, say, the majority of the posters don't defend the same positions most of the mods do? what about people against gay marriage in the ot?
this, to me, seems to be a case "we don't like what the community likes, so no one is gonna like anything". i can see why a game about sex with minors is banned, but the problem here is more about what this could lead to rather than the ban itself. i mean, the mods can technically ban the discussion of whatever they want, but that's a pretty slippery slope
Murders and violence are in movies, games, everything in this damn world. There's other games/movies for people that don't want this content in their product. There's ratings and stuff for this and it's controlled.
Underage semi-porn content should fucking not even be distributed, point, end of the damn line.
GOD, ARE WE REALLY ARGUING ABOUT THIS GUYS?!
Sakura
Member
This is not true at all. The vast majority of visual novels that come out are still eroge. You get a few all ages story focused VNs here and there (for example Steins Gate and Rewrite) but that is about it.
There are also other games and stuff for people who don't want content like Criminal Girls... And the game is also going to be rated and controlled like any other game.
I don't understand your argument.
Smiles and Cries
Member
the discussion will be focused on that aspect for the lulz it becomes harder to keep the bad out when the lines are blurred like this
like I said before this game is not honest about what it is
ShockingAlberto
Member
Something can be morally repugnant without being explicit.
graywolf323
Member
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Another point is that most acceptable "violent games" usually have the player fighting against foes that are aggressive against them, or at least are capable of fighting back...there's still some sense of "fairness" in the acts committed. I'm sure most people here would be disgusted if there was a game where you went around killing defenseless kids and would want that discussion banned as well.
These games though don't have that...you're not on equal footing, you're literally taking advantage of a little girl (even if she's A.I.) for your own sexual gratification. And I don't think for a second there's anyone who plays these games who does so with a clean mind focused only on gameplay.
These games though don't have that...you're not on equal footing, you're literally taking advantage of a little girl (even if she's A.I.) for your own sexual gratification. And I don't think for a second there's anyone who plays these games who does so with a clean mind focused only on gameplay.
I feel as if you are going to call someone out like this, you should show examples of his "reign of terror", I dunno, call me crazy.
This board is getting bigger, people are going to have more disagreements with mods(rightfully and wrongfully). NBA type practices, where you are not allowed to talk publicly about the mods without a fine or suspension can be worrisome, but honestly is just comes with the territory. Again, I think the only real problem with the closing of the topic is they didnt specify the terms it broke or added a new one to coincide with the change. And even that isnt technically a problem, since it is a private forum. As long as Evilore is fine, then meh.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
DAMN
Your insistence on getting shoulder deep into every debate did lead to you banning people, though. You banned me for condescendingly saying you don't know what Nintendo will do about some topic. It was a debate I had explicitly with you and not even other posters. You used to fucking spit fire then ban people who stepped over the line responding to you. Entrapment!
terrisus
Member
I'm extremely highly opinionated and I know you can be as well, so I think I understand your points. I'll often consider my own behavior "mostly" acceptable with just a few dips into unacceptable areas. My analytic nature means I parse all my actions separately of each other. Often, I think my tone comes off way, way harsher than I intend. I've been routinely accused of "being angry" during a discussion when really I just feel like I'm being passionate. Text is messy like that.
The point of my post is I don't think many people think like we think. I don't think it's normal to separate out the actions of a person under one hat from the actions of a person under another hat. You were forcefully argumentative as a moderator, hence most people think you were a bad moderator. Myself, I understand your view point. I myself would make that distinction. I just don't think our thought process aligns with the majority of people.
Which is to say, I don't think you'll gain ground in this conversation. You can at least take solace in the fact that, as someone who thinks quite like you do, I understood you point.
Good to hear from the source. I hope you didn't take my post from earlier personally because it was just based on things I heard, as I said, I wasn't there during these times.
You're a nice guy, as far as I know, so far.
It's cool. I admit I am just a little frustrated as being painted as public enemy ex-mod number one... we've had some pretty abusive mods in the past
Oh yeah, I don't want to take it away from you. I was NOT a good fit for mod. I was a bad mod, because a mod has to be able to curate discussions and lead people to good places. Stumpokapow is a great mod; Opiate is a great mod. Me, I wanted to jump into every battle and argue with every person, and my newfound status as a mod just gave me even more attention for my opinions, and since I love sharing my opinions... it was a bad fit. I should have been more self-aware about it earlier and removed myself from being a mod years before I ever edited that damned post. My pride sometimes gets the best of me
...Editing fiasco?
Well that's obviously alright, then.
Listen - if you want to have a chit chat about your game where visibly underage kids are sexually "punished" in various ways, that fine. But it won't be here.
If that bugs you, so be it. If you want to argue that "if 'X' isn't allowed, what about 'Y'?" Go ahead.
I don't care. This isn't the place for you.
You will know because the thread will be locked. A thread being locked doesn't harm you at all. If people got banned for it that be something else.
aspiegamer
Member
I'm just trying to come up with something that would be "a" system that would have set, pre-determined rules to fall back on in the inevitable cries of censorship in any thread that ever gets locked ever. It certainly wouldn't even have to be absolute--Other things could be case-by-case or discussion-by-discussion.
Generally speaking I'd say moderate the posters, not the threads. From how I've understood it the #1 rule here is "don't be a dick". That can be enforced regardless of the topic of discussion. If people want to troll or harass people about controversial subjects they do so at their own risk.
The worst result here will be if/when (well, it sorta has already) things turn to "violence = cool, sex = evil". Following an ESRB/whatever okay-for-retail standard would set the initial tone.
And thus it is settled; case-by-case, rights reserved by mods, contact a mod if concerned about the content of something, etc? So the norm.
I'm actually glad that moderation is starting to put their foot down on these creepy, borderline porno games. I find them unsettling and it is a little disappointing that it's becoming such a huge part of the Vita output from Japan.
There's fan service, and then there's Criminal Girls. That's a gulf we don't need to breach.
There's fan service, and then there's Criminal Girls. That's a gulf we don't need to breach.
A good example given to me by a friend about the grayness of the discussion of this topic. Considering this is about drawings of supposedly underage characters.
Let's say I draw a stick figure with no features, with a speech bubble declaring that the character is underage and naked. Then start adding detail. At what point is the image unacceptable?
You're probably right, and I'd find those games very distasteful, but
a) I can't actually think of any games like that right now. Manhunt? And
b) Evilore's house, his rules. If he's okay with the killin' and nots wit the kiddie touchin', then I'm going to respect that whether I agree on the first or second points or any at all.
Even a game about criminals has context. Who they are, why they're doing what they do, it never boils down to killing for pleasure. I've played GTA. The game does have context, even if as a player you can bend the system to just run over innocents all day if you want.
terribletwo
Member
its weird how we also tend to frown on killing kids too
It's essentialy a porn game and these are the characters:
I mean, c'mon.
Only, it's not a porn game at all. There definitely are BDSM undertones, but porn is another thing, "essentially" or otherwise. There isn't even a glimpse on any of the character's sexual bits for instance.
I suspect most around here don't have a very clear idea of what this game entails and what it doesn't.
Not that I particularly care, as this is a privately owned and moderated forum, so if the mods decide to ban Call of Duty they can. Simple as that. But hyperbole and misrepresentation surely don't help the discussion.
Devolution
Member
But molesting children is only a subgame.
NoirVisage
Banned
This needs to be quoted 100×
Neogaf has never been a democracy, you seriously can't be blind to all the proof to that end.
Mods are Human too, If you have the opportunity to make a judgment on something without being tied to all the responsibilities of standing by that judgment, wouldn't you?
Spring-Loaded
Member
Just because I post that doesn't mean I assume that's what you're saying. The thread's about discussion of games and subjects being banned, right?
Chie Satonaka
Member
I haven't been here for as long as some of you guys have, but I'm concerned with the idea of not discussing some video games here just because someone doesn't approve of them. I'm not okay with some sort of "morality measuring stick" that dictates where this line in the sand is, and if discussion about these kind of games is to take place, I'm not okay with implied or outright accusations of pedophilia for people who might enjoy their content.
The last two threads were a mess.
The last two threads were a mess.
Vire
Member
I know that feel, bro. It's so easy to get aggressive or defensive on the internets.It's cool. I admit I am just a little frustrated as being painted as public enemy ex-mod number one... we've had some pretty abusive mods in the past
Oh yeah, I don't want to take it away from you. I was NOT a good fit for mod. I was a bad mod, because a mod has to be able to curate discussions and lead people to good places. Stumpokapow is a great mod; Opiate is a great mod. Me, I wanted to jump into every battle and argue with every person, and my newfound status as a mod just gave me even more attention for my opinions, and since I love sharing my opinions... it was a bad fit. I should have been more self-aware about it earlier and removed myself from being a mod years before I ever edited that damned post. My pride sometimes gets the best of me
The Crushed ban was one of the worst I've seen. After that you kind of went off the deep end and I stopped liking your moderations/contributions to threads. I like you again now though
Errr, ok....ok.
I'll try to stay polite, but guys:
There's sexual content, ok.
There's sexual content involving FUCKING UNDERAGE GIRLS.
I mean, am I crazy to think that this conversation, the one we're having right now, is fucking wrong?!?! I know there's other games like that, too. My argument holds, there's no place for that freaking deviant stuff nowhere.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Hm, well
To put it this way
If you offered me a game where I had to discipline children in prison by beating them violently or hitting them with a board with a nail in it or flaying their skin, I would also find that disgusting and would welcome a ban on any discussion relating to it. So I don't think this is a violence/sex thing.
s_mirage
Member
So if the judgments of the appropriate authorities are irrelevant it simply comes down to "I know it when I see it" and personal distaste, right?
Gaf can ban anything it wants but given that the visual novel threads also contain discussion of games with (legitimately) explicit contents, IMHO it would be much healthier for the community if it was explicitly clarified what game related discussion is verboten.
Devolution
Member
Sexualized corporal punishment of little girls.
I think I just broke my yardstick on this one guys.
That wasn't a serious post.
Never the less, that was ice cold. This is the first game to have its' discussion banned, so I don't see anything wrong with this thread nor my questions. I don't even want to play/purchase Criminal Girls. It's not my type of game. It's a matter of concept. What crosses the line and what doesn't?
For the purposes of this conversation the answer is whenever Evillore and the mods say so. The criminality or otherwise of artistic depictions of child abuse is irrelevant here. All that matters is whether the people who run the site want discussions about that stuff on the site and you'd have to be being obtuse not to understand why they don't.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Are the girls really underage though? Like how old are they?
terrisus
Member
Certainly that's true, of course.
Especially given Bish's post above as well.
To be clear, I'm not really arguing in favor of discussion and posting about these games necessarily.
More just an academic discussion about the fact that discussion of all sorts of other reprehensible things are discussed here.
Not in a "Well, those are allowed, so why not this!," but moreso "If this is an issue, then those really should be as well..."
Everything about this post is flawless
as bewildered as you are, there are people even more upset that this game is being ever-so-slightly toned down for the western release. now that is what i really can't understand.
Just for clarification, is it the sexualizing of seemingly underage anime girls or the sexual punishment specifically? If it's the punishment then that's clear but I'm sure you're aware of how many titles are coming out that seem to be featuring lewd anime girls that look underage, so is talk about those titles also a no or is it the punishment that's the issue?
Every mod post would be anonymous by this logic.
Trevor in GTA V doesn't really have much context for what he does; he's a psycho who does horrible things without much, if any reason all the time. I'm not badmouthing the game or anything, I enjoyed playing it myself. Just saying that while there is some justification in there, for the most part there isn't. They are usually called open world/sanbox games for a reason.
Devolution
Member
Yeah they could be 1,000 year old witches, y'all don't know.
Sakura
Member
Er, I'm fairly certain you don't have sex with any girls in the game good sir.
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