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[TouchMyBox]

stickers are achievements.

Achievements by definition are worthless though. Stickers are slightly above worthless.

 

[DryvBy]

Definitely. I don't chase achievements and trophies hard but I like that they're there.

Exactly this. Sometimes they give you more game than before. I don't understand how people are against them. How is it any different than 100%ing a game or collectable chasing in old games? It's just a different system.

You know what system first turned me onto achievements/trophies? Super Smash Bros. Melee and their collectable stuff. I played more Smash because I wanted chances to unlock their trophies because I just thought they looked cool. Basically no difference to me.

 

[Khrno]

Every time I get one of those trophies or so on Hyrule Warriors, I wish they were account wide trophies-like, not just in-game ones.

I'm not particularly someone obsessed with getting 100% trophies on PS consoles, but I do like being able to see the trophies as a collective even if's only 10%.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Them goalposts be movin'.

Only because apparently "singleplayer mode in a multiplayer game" is equivalent to "singleplayer game" in your book.

 

[tanooki27]

it should, yes. adds another dimension to the game. i'd love to see EAD's crazy awesome take on "cheevos"

 

[VanWinkle]

I love stamps. I don't want numeric achievements. To me, personally, stamps are more of a qualitative achievement, and typical trophies and achievements make all of the games too same-y in a way. Like, the way you're playing them. That's just my own take on it. Plus, I really like sharing accomplishments on Miiverse as is.

P.S. IMO, Rayman Legends < Origins, but regardless to me, the Murphy levels were much more fun on Wii U, in single player or co-op.

I think of stamps the same way I think of any other in-game challenges or medals: cool, but in no way a replacement for an actual trophy system. I don't think the two should have to be mutually exclusive. There are plenty of Xbox and PlayStation games that have in-game challenges and medals as well as trophies/achievements.

 

[Neff]

No.

It should have Miiverse, which is what it has.

 

[Krejlooc]

Apparently my argument isn't clear enough:

In a singleplayer game - that is, a game that has no multiplayer -, a list of storyline checkpoint achievements outlines the structure of the story in advance.

Your argument is a conclusion looking for evidence. You made up your mind in the first place, and now to try and support your assertion, you're pidgeon-holing a scenario to the point where your complain doesn't even make sense anymore. You are less concerned with your own point than you are with being "right."

Who care if the game has multiplayer? Most games have multiplayer to begin with. Further, your argument hinges on the "Argument from Ignorance" fallacy - unless we can't list some game that meets your pedantic criteria, such a game flat-out doesn't exist.

That is arguing in bad faith.

 

[Krejlooc]

Achievements by definition are worthless though

Uh, achievements, in practically every system-wide implementation, come attached with points. They are, by definition worth the points assigned.

Hell, in steam, one implementation, trading cards, are directly transferable into real-world money.

 

[Chû Totoro]

No imo because it's useless the way others have implemented it. People who are always talking about trophies are boring and even trophies themselves are most of the time a chore to get (I mean not hard but boring and just time consuming).

 

[Hugstable]

And without having played it and just by looking at the achievements list, I now know that it has 14 chapters and can be completed in under 5 hours.

Structurally spoilt.

EDIT:




Apparently my argument isn't clear enough:

In a singleplayer game - that is, a game that has no multiplayer -, a list of storyline checkpoint achievements outlines the structure of the story in advance.

Then don't look at the achievements list. You know that most come hidden and that noone forces you to look at it. Achievements/Trophies are fine as is. I don't mind them not being there in Nintendo games, but they are optional everywhere else also and if you don't want to worry about trophies or achievements then you don't have to. Saying "oh I'm just gonna walk into the achievements page and spoil the game for myself even though I stated that I hate that" seem silly, that kinda person wouldn't just walk into an achievements page at that point.

 

[Alavard]

Uh, achievements, in practically every system-wide implementation, come attached with points. They are, by definition worth the points assigned.

Hell, in steam, one implementation, trading cards, are directly transferable into real-world money.

Steam trading cards have nothing to do with Steam achievements.

 

[RavenValor95]

Yeah, I'd be down with the WiiU having an achievement/trophy system.
A few games already have a similar system available(Splinter Cell: Blacklist and it's Accomplishments system) but it'd be nice to have it system wide.

 

[Spineker]

This is just another one of those things that continues to put Nintendo behind the 8 ball.

 

[Leafhopper]

That sounds more the fault of these strawmen than the trophies themselves.

For sure the blame isn't 100% trophies themselves but, if they weren't maybe people would play the multiplayer if they found it fun rather than just going for trophies. If they don't like it they don't have to play it of course but I think people that play online for achievements and aren't enjoying it end up doing questionable things that may ruin the experience for others that actually want to play. Especially if its some weird requirement that may not help a team at all. Basically I don't mind co-op and single player achievements but I dislike competitive achievements.

If anything Valve's in game item drops in games like TF2 might be worse, however there are idle servers and junk for that (I haven't played TF2 since 2010 so I don't know if this is still the case.)

Also, most Nintendo games, at least one published or developed by Nintendo, have achievements built into the games as others have pointed out. However they seem even less relevant somehow.

 

[Krejlooc]

Steam trading cards have nothing to do with Steam achievements.

Trading cards in and of themselves are a form of achievements. To distinguish between them and the labeled achievements is to distinguish between trophies/achievements and stickers in nintendo games.

They are unlockable, external rewards for playing games and doing things in said games. They are, for all intent and purposes, achievements. And that's the entire point - that the tired argument that achievements can only be a couple of points and a beep at the bottom of your screen is very narrow thinking.

 

[Piston Hyundai]

And without having played it and just by looking at the achievements list, I now know that it has 14 chapters and can be completed in under 5 hours.

Structurally spoilt.

If it's that big of a deal, then don't look at the achievement list.

And to your point about stuff like the inverted castle and special worlds in Super Mario 3D games, you have a bigger problem than achievement lists to worry about: the Internet. Big things like that are the gaming equivalent of "Luke, I am your father," where it's bound to come up in discussions of the games.

 

[Leafhopper]

Trading cards in and of themselves are a form of achievements. To distinguish between them and the labeled achievements is to distinguish between trophies/achievements and stickers in nintendo games.

They are unlockable, external rewards for playing games and doing things in said games. They are, for all intent and purposes, achievements. And that's the entire point - that the tired argument that achievements can only be a couple of points and a beep at the bottom of your screen is very narrow thinking.

I agree. I like Steam Trading Cards and dislike a chunk of in game achievements but Trading Cards are almost the same thing just you get better and more significant perks for crafting badges.

Well I think they are more significant anyway. I am not talking about the steam level though.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

This topic is moot because Nintendo aren't stupid enough to enforce a design paradigm that is not universally applicable upon developers in the first place.

That is arguing in bad faith.

No, it is making a point you are choosing to ignore;
Not all games have multiplayer.
Achievements do not suit every game, in the same way that highscore tables do not suit every game, or lives do not suit every game, or time limits do not suit every game.

I listed some games that do not work with a standardised achievement system.

Okami is another game that is structurally spoilt by the existence of achievements in the HD remaster.
I would have been annoyed to have either Okami or SOTN ruined in this way if I had not played them when they first came out without achievements.

Then don't look at the achievements list. You know that most come hidden and that noone forces you to look at it.

The consoles with standardised achievement systems usually have a progress bar right on the "play game" section of the OS.

 

[Krejlooc]

Also, most Nintendo games, at least one published or developed by Nintendo, have achievements built into the games as others have pointed out. However they seem even less relevant somehow.

The argument isn't so much for achievements in and of themselves, it's a call for a system-wide implementation. There are a number of benefits from a system interface opposed to a per-game implementation, the most obvious being an easy form of cross-game comparison. Take, for example, this suggestion:

In-game achievements like the bottlecaps in TW101 don't work for me because they're in the game only. If they were linked to my miiverse profile viewable outside the game they'd serve the same function. It's not about showing off, it's just about having something viewable on record, even if I'm the only one looking.

Then make a Miiverse post about the bottle cap with a screenshot. Done.

This completely misses the point being made. It's not about just being able to show off your achievements online. To wit:

This is the entire reason implementing such a feature system-wide is a great thing. It's neat to be able to bring up a list of my trophies/achievements and compare them to my buddies. Not for competition, but as a way to see what sort of games we like. If my buddies have maxed out all the achievements or trophies in a game, its usually a sign to me that the game is worth checking out.

Such features really only work at a system level. On a game-by-game basis, I have to actually have the game in the first place to check the trophy/achievement progress.

Taking a picture of your achievements and posting it to miiverse accomplishes none of what I just described.

 

[Dr_LucienSanchez]

Maybe you'd like to tell me which singleplayer games don't have storyline checkpoint achievements that make up the bulk of the total achievements and act like a progress system then?

Since I just played all of them for the first time, every Uncharted game.

And besides the multiplayer complaints, which are valid, I still find it strange that people are so vehemently against achievements in games. Like, just turn off the notifications and you can pretend they don't exist, whereas the rest of the audience can be happy that they're there on a system-wide level.

 

[JCX]

Are there people who would seriously buy a Wii U/3DS but won't because they lack achievements? Seems kind of bleak if true, when the game isn't even the main attraction of a games system anymore.

 

[Stone Ocean]

And without having played it and just by looking at the achievements list, I now know that it has 14 chapters and can be completed in under 5 hours.

Structurally spoilt.

Are you for real?

You just looked at the achievement list on your own accord, the game never tells you the amount of chapters there is, without looking for it yourself you wouldn't know. That's like complaining wikipedia spoils fucking plotlines for you.

Also on your other argument, story unmissable achievements rarely count for more than 40% of total achievements. How would you know you're near the end just because you have 36%?

And the thought that achievements ruin multiplayer games is also just an assumption. People that give a shit about getting 100% of achievements don't account for enough people to ruin entire modes, and usually they just boost said achievements in private rooms.

 

[Azriell]

Of course it should. Achievements have become as standard as rumble, dual analogs, and dashboards. You should also be able to go into the menus and completely disable them, for those so inclined. At the very minimum, Nintendo's achievements should be for completing the game (credit screen).

I don't know how much actual value gamerscore and the like has (how often do people go through the list to see the games, and then go into the game to see the individual achievements?), but showing off what games you have completed would be cool. Even something as simple as a gamerscore that showed off solely how many games you have completed, which then links to a list of those games, would be pretty cool. A badge of honor for completing a game makes a lot more sense to me than a badge of honor for collecting 30 baubles.

 

[Krejlooc]

No, it is making a point you are choosing to ignore;
Not all games have multiplayer.
Achievements do not suit every game, in the same way that highscore tables do not suit every game, or lives do not suit every game, or time limits do not suit every game.

I listed some games that do not work with a standardised achievement system.

Okami is another game that is structurally spoilt by the existence of achievements in the HD remaster.
I would have been annoyed to have either Okami or SOTN ruined in this way if I had not played them when they first came out without achievements.

The onus of spoiling a game is on the developer, it is not inherent to the achievement system in any way. And there are numerous examples that demonstrate this, but continuing to humor you is pointless anyways.

 

[zruben]

in-game achievements /stamps + Screenshots + Miiverse is personally enough for me.

however, traditional trophies/achievements it's still a nice feature that should've been included.

 

[Percy]

Too late for that at this point, but I'd certainly have liked to see what a Nintendo version of the achievements system would look like.

 

[Leafhopper]

The argument isn't so much for achievements in and of themselves, it's a call for a system-wide implementation. There are a number of benefits from a system interface opposed to a per-game implementation, the most obvious being an easy form of cross-game comparison.

Ah, I see what you are saying. Even though I wouldn't want it and probably half use it for single player achievements, that would just open up a new can of worms for Nintendo I think. There online infrastructure can do it currently but then people would complain about losing their achievements when they had to do a system transfer or reformat or something. Then again they can link it to the Miiverse somehow (to the degree of PSN/XBLA, with levels and listing the achievements etc.) and that may convince Nintendo to improve their network infrastructure better.

Maybe they don't think it's worth it to do it?

 

[Raptomex]

The in-game screenshots is better imo. I got burnt out on the whole achievement/trophy thing anyway so I could just take it or leave it.

 

[Alavard]

Trading cards in and of themselves are a form of achievements. To distinguish between them and the labeled achievements is to distinguish between trophies/achievements and stickers in nintendo games.

They are unlockable, external rewards for playing games and doing things in said games. They are, for all intent and purposes, achievements. And that's the entire point - that the tired argument that achievements can only be a couple of points and a beep at the bottom of your screen is very narrow thinking.

Steam trading cards are awarded randomly for playing the game for certain amounts of time. They are never awarded for undertaking certain actions within a game.

A better example would be Playfire Rewards with GreenManGaming, in which you gain GMG credit for playing for specific amounts of time or completing certain in-game achievements.

 

[Forkball]

I don't personally care for it, but it's obvious a lot of people do and it does affect sales to some degree. I think Nintendo could incorporate it in some interesting ways, so I would like to see them implement something system wide.

 

[ratcliffja]

Why would anyone argue against adding additional features to something?

Some of us are completionists who find stuff like this to be somewhat of a nightmare. Still, I wouldn't mind it in general since I can usually ignore the Steam achievements fairly well.

 

[Krejlooc]

Steam trading cards are awarded randomly for playing the game for certain amounts of time. They are never awarded for undertaking certain actions within a game.

There are achievements unlockable in games for playing for specific amounts of time as well. That does not preclude trading cards from being a form of achievement. In this case, they represent time spent played.

A better example would be Playfire Rewards with GreenManGaming, in which you gain GMG credit for playing for specific amounts of time or completing certain in-game achievements.

Sure, that's yet another example of the malleability of said system.

Ah, I see what you are saying. Even though I wouldn't want it and probably half use it for single player achievements, that would just open up a new can of worms for Nintendo I think. There online infrastructure can do it currently but then people would complain about losing their achievements when they had to do a system transfer or reformat or something. Then again they can link it to the Miiverse somehow (to the degree of PSN/XBLA, with levels and listing the achievements etc.) and that may convince Nintendo to improve their network infrastructure better.

Maybe they don't think it's worth it to do it?

Ideally, such a system would be linked to an online profile, like miiverse in general, I agree. All these technologies should be orchestrated in concert, not as isolated, redundant systems.

 

[crinale]

It's not "the popup" (although that is one hell of an immersion breaking thing by itself); its the fact that there is a "progress bar".

For games that contain structural surprises about the game length upon seeming completion, it doesn't matter how many ??? trophies you have that don't tell you what they are, playing through a singleplayer game and getting near to where you believe the end to be and seeing you have only unlocked 20% of the ???? trophies makes you know that you're headed for a fake out ending.

Some games like Persona4 you can reach true ending and unlock very little trophies.
I'm really not sure how the "progress bar" spoils the story.

 

[giancarlo123x]

Yes. For achievements just use them to unlock stamps.

 

[pvpness]

I don't care for them, but options are always a good thing. I like the stamps/challenge type set up most N games use right now and wouldn't want to lose that. Would be ok with taking that system, system-wide.

 

[protomouse]

No. I find existing solutions pointless and, in a way, detrimental to gaming because devs AFAIK are required to support achievements in order for their game to pass certification (at least on Sony's side). Who are platform holders to mandate such things, and what purpose does it ultimately serve?

Let devs put unlockables and stuff in-game where they feel it makes sense. The Smash Bros. series is exemplary in this regard.

 

[massoluk]

My 2 cents, if a developer think their achievements can add something to the game, they would add them in regardless if it's voluntary or not. If not, then they are just going to do them half ass anyway.

 

[Krejlooc]

because devs AFAIK are required to support achievements in order for their game to pass certification (at least on Sony's side).

Achievements are thrown flags, they are one of the simplest technologies to implement into any game. Perhaps if you're not a programmer this point will be lost on you, but it is essentially one extended class that winds up being little more than a single line of code prior to return on any given function.

Hell, your function return in and of itself can be an achievement.

All the real work is handled system-wide. Throwing an achievement, to the developer, is essentially a boolean check.

 

[Cynar]

Uh, achievements, in practically every system-wide implementation, come attached with points. They are, by definition worth the points assigned.

Hell, in steam, one implementation, trading cards, are directly transferable into real-world money.

Achievements have nothing to do with trading cards on steam.

 

[Krejlooc]

Achievements have nothing to do with trading cards on steam.

Trading cards in and of themselves are a form of achievements. To distinguish between them and the labeled achievements is to distinguish between trophies/achievements and stickers in nintendo games.

They are unlockable, external rewards for playing games and doing things in said games. They are, for all intent and purposes, achievements. And that's the entire point - that the tired argument that achievements can only be a couple of points and a beep at the bottom of your screen is very narrow thinking.

.

 

[Kai Dracon]

I don't require achievements to have fun at all, but I do appreciate a system with a time and date stamp like PSN trophies. I agree with the sentiment it acts as a reminder and logbook for what you did in a particular game; that has a degree of value.

Optimally such award systems would be tied to more significant in-game material, like the great challenge system in Smash Bros. The sticker/stamp system on Wii U could also make a great universal achievement system, just add a "stamp book" to the OS that collects every stamp earned in every game together and let players compare stamp books over Nintendo Network. Boom, there's your achievement system.

 

[jimi_dini]

Apart from poorly implemented trophies and multiplayer specific trophies that become impossible to obtain, I can tell you some games that WOULD HAVE BEEN ruined with trophies:
- Castlevania SOTN
- the Silent Hills
- Super Mario 3D Land / Super Mario 3D World
- Any game that contains structural game surprises

To add to this list:
- Ico
- Shadow Of The Colossus

btw. Silent Hill 2 + 3 actually were ruined by trophies. Trophy!!!!

Spoiler

You killed your wife again, isn't that sad?

. Party Time!!!

Spoiler

in fact you don't always kill your wife, so the trophy is even wrong most of the time

<-- Silent Hill 2 spoilers

The 2 games, that I listed, were also ruined. You should feel

Spoiler

sad now, because you killed one of those bosses, but don't because party time!!! trophy!!!! ping!!!!

<-- SotC spoilers

Sony are a bunch of morans for forcing developers to include them.

 

[budpikmin]

I like the idea of individual challenges in games but I really don't like the pressure of having a bad trophy count or gamerscore. I find it a breath of fresh air playing older consoles where none of this exists and I find myself enjoying it much more. I think the Wii u system of in game stamps but no overall system is perfect for me.

 

[Gflorez]

Of course, it would be great for games like Smash Bros.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

I don't play games for manufactured contrived motivations so no, I don't see any value of trophies or achievements.

If the individual developer wants to put them in, fine.

A universal feature for the console though???

Hogwash.

 

[Finalow]

sure, why not. it's a nice system that gives me satisfaction when I get all of them or complete hard ones on games that I like.

It's called Miiverse.

wut - stickers? Yeah, no. if only I liked to ''post'' or even open miiverse.

 

[Krejlooc]

I don't play games for manufactured contrived motivations

That is all a game is.

 

[TheAngryMonkey]

I like the achievement system because it creates a fun meta game I can play against my friends

 

[Krejlooc]

To add to this list:
- Ico
- Shadow Of The Colossus

btw. Silent Hill 2 + 3 actually were ruined by trophies. Trophy!!!!

Spoiler

You killed your wife again, isn't that sad?

. Party Time!!!

Spoiler

in fact you don't always kill your wife, so the trophy is even wrong most of the time

<-- Silent Hill 2 spoilers

The 2 games, that I listed, were also ruined. You should feel

Spoiler

sad now, because you killed one of those bosses, but don't because party time!!! trophy!!!! ping!!!!

<-- SotC spoilers

Sony are a bunch of morans for forcing developers to include them.

http://uk.playstation.com/ps3/suppo...35296/item624216/Set-up-trophy-notifications/